Saturn transiting the 12th house

I have transit Saturn in 12th house Scorpio. I am going through a tough time in my life and wonder if this has something to do with it? What is the experience of others that have dealt with this transit and what should I expect? What is the lesson I am supposed to learn if any? I don't have any planets in the 12th only parts of fortune.

Could you please post your chart? Charts are a complex thing and in order to make "judgements" it is important to see the whole picture.

Intuitive One said:

I have transit Saturn in 12th house Scorpio. I am going through a tough time in my life and wonder if this has something to do with it? What is the experience of others that have dealt with this transit and what should I expect? What is the lesson I am supposed to learn if any? I don't have any planets in the 12th only parts of fortune.

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While Saturn's transit of your 12th house could be significant, you could also be blaming the "old devil" or something He is not responsible, and it could be something else. I agree that posting a chart is necessary. it would also be helpful to the narrowing down of the possible challenge by your letting us know more specifically what your "tough time: involves.

I too would also like to see the chart before making assessments. I can say that I have Saturn/Scorpio 12th as well, and am just pulling out of my second Saturn Return. Not necessarily a picnic, but with awareness of what your personal issues are, you can find better ways of navigating through the transit.

Here is my natal chart with a couple of asteroids added. Nothing is working in my favor right now. I'm feeling down and in a funk also- way more than usual. Thanks.

In order to understand a transit of the 12th House by Saturn you must first understand natal Saturn (in Gemini, in the 7th, involved in a massive T-square, etc), and in order to understand that, you must understand the whole natal chart, see it as an integral whole, and what its implications are. The natal chart governs the personality as a whole and the life as a whole. Saturn transiting the 12th is only a part of a process (the cycles of Saturn) that form a part of a larger process -- life itself.

As an example, my own chart shows a life of isolation, alienation, solitude, etc. I am now nearing the end of the road and the implications of this chart are still quite apparent. It is not possible to see and understand the motions of Saturn out of this context. And I must add, this apparently unfavorable life-plan was and is essential to my own personal development and fulfillment... the seemingly negative tone of the life has led to much that is positive.

We tend to ask, "What are the lessons I am supposed to learn?" and "What is my purpose in life?" The answers to those questions are right in front of your nose, and only you can answer them. Finding those answers is not easy, but they are at hand. Dealing with those answers can be very difficult. And much of the process requires time. We must go through a long period of confusion and doubt to finally reach out and "open" the answer. And in the end, life itself is seen to be largely our attitude toward it, and not dependent on external reality.

A transiting planet carries its natal implications with it throughout life. Nothing stands alone; it's all part of a continuous thread.

what seems like a dark tunnel to you at this time, is really about being on the verge of new horizons opening up for you. Saturn in the 12th causes us to face up to our fears, our sense of limitation, our inner conflicts and our views about the hardships we encounter. Saturn's impetus is to clear away the past conditioning and imprinting we have been subject to, so that we can start anew and find new ways to structure our lives, and to determine our true priorities. Reviewing the past is about deciding what to keep, and what to throw away, while we form a new direction in life. Saturn is also about accepting responsibility for our own mishaps and realizing the necessity for being accountable for all that we do [the law of cause and effect]. As long as we continue to blame others, the internalized problems will continue to haunt us. In the 12th H it is not about meeting the devil, but rather coming to terms with our own inner demons, that are often of our own making. Your problem areas relate to the afflictions of natal Saturn in the chart, and this is where the lessons must be learned. For you: Saturn opp Neptune, and square Sun/Moon/Mercury, forming a t-square. The arena in which these difficulties will show up relate to the projection of your personality and how that is received by others; that is connected directly to your past experiences and your family influences [including ancestry and karmic implications]. Saturn / Moon- resentments, disappointments and the potential for depression from your past conditioning, and perhaps in terms of your relationship with the mother in particular. Saturn/Sun=relating to the father. This shows a major disconnect from the 'parental unit' in terms of their parenting of you; problems with discipline and authority; these in turn represent the limitations you place on yourself. Saturn/Neptune=disillusionment, deception, betrayal,distrust, estrangement. It is pretty clear that much of your current dark tunnel relates to the past, which always forms a bridge to the present; you are requiring deep analysis and self-reflection now to move beyond the limits and boundaries that were set for you in life through the parents. In maturity though, we must accept that most of what they did was not deliberate in intention, but largely due to the parents own process of evolution as they fought their way through their own inner jungles; as such, parents tend to cast their own doubts, disappointments, beliefs and expectations onto their children, being largely unaware themselves of what they are doing. Part of our own recovery depends on our ability and willingness to forgive, and see things more objectively and without blame. Still self-examination and retrospect are necessary for seeing things in their true light. In order to know where we are heading in life, we first must know and evaluate where we have been...the sign energy of your Saturn placement in the birth chart [Gemini] is also of import, so the affliction of Mercury are also of importance to you; in that it is the square between Mercury/Pluto that needs resolving. Your lessons then are associated with how your parent's influence in the past set the stage for your own marital and domestic playing out...is marriage a concern at this time? Or is it about difficulties in social and public relationships?

Saturn has passed through my 12th House 3 times during my life. First, as an infant, without memory.

Then, in my early 30s... And finally in my early 60s.

Interesting times, varied events...but nothing ghoulish or dreary.

I did some traveling, had a baby, changed occupation, started a small business...bought a house, got a pet, learned a language.

Other folks will have had other sorts of experiences during this transit.

If you want to understand this transit of Saturn through your 12th House, the first thing is to keep a journal. You must refer to the natal chart: which house does Saturn occupy? Which houses does it rule? What is the condition of Saturn's dispostor? What aspects does Saturn behold, what do they seem to signify?

Pay attention to transiting aspects to Saturn, both its transit and its natal position as well as the aspects transiting Saturn makes to natal planets and cusps.

To blame your current position in life on Saturn transiting your 12th (as prima facie evidence of a period of misery or hopelessness) is to generalize to such an extent as to strip the transit of any useful practical meaning.

At Kimbermoon:

I grew up in a strict household. At an earlier age than most,I had to take care of my mother. I was resentful at times because I never really got to enjoy part of my life due to my caretaker role but I have no regrets. I'm not married because I was focused more on being a caretaker and working plus I never met the right person. I've been unlucky in relationships and now I think its too late because I'm a little long in the tooth.

I've been doing a lot of reflecting lately. All I want a small degree of normalcy a good job a nice place to live but even that has eluded me. Thankyou for explaining the t square-I was wondering that was in my natal chart Now I see Saturn's influence on my 4th house.

greybeard said:

Saturn has passed through my 12th House 3 times during my life. First, as an infant, without memory.

Then, in my early 30s... And finally in my early 60s.

Interesting times, varied events...but nothing ghoulish or dreary.

I did some traveling, had a baby, changed occupation, started a small business...bought a house, got a pet, learned a language.

Other folks will have had other sorts of experiences during this transit.

If you want to understand this transit of Saturn through your 12th House, the first thing is to keep a journal. You must refer to the natal chart: which house does Saturn occupy? Which houses does it rule? What is the condition of Saturn's dispostor? What aspects does Saturn behold, what do they seem to signify?

Pay attention to transiting aspects to Saturn, both its transit and its natal position as well as the aspects transiting Saturn makes to natal planets and cusps.

To blame your current position in life on Saturn transiting your 12th (as prima facie evidence of a period of misery or hopelessness) is to generalize to such an extent as to strip the transit of any useful practical meaning.

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I am still learning a lot about my chart. I've always known that natal Saturn causes difficulty in my 7th house but now I see its influence beyond my 7th house because of the square and opposition aspects.

I mentioned saturn and the 12th house because I have read that this is a difficult transit and figured that maybe this applied in my case.

Things have been progressively getting worse for the past 2 years which is why I thought that a transit must be triggering this but I understand your point about not overgeneralizing.

I'm also aware that Saturn is not the only transit planet to look at because of Uranus and Pluto are also stirring things up. I am truly a beginner which is why I am here to learn about my chart and to learn what I can from you guys.

Very few charts belong to kings and movie stars.

Most of us live more ordinary lives, and some folks have more intimate challenges.

Paul spoke of our individual destinies when he said "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?"

It is not my purpose to "read your chart." But here are some of the important features of your chart:

Sun and Moon (the Lights -- this very special term should alert us to their central role in any horoscope) are in tight conjunction (Moon is combust and less than 3 degrees from Sun -- she is horribly afflicted) and also very powerfully Angular (clearly the "most powerfully angular" planets in the chart because: a) tightly conjoined the angle, b) at the focal point of a Common T-square with the Sun most highly focused because he beholds a partile square to Saturn [and partile sextile to Mars], and c) in combustion.

The conjunction is in the sign of Pisces (suffering, martyrdom, other-worldliness, dependency, empathy, imagination....). With Neptune angular, rising, participant in the T-square, he should probably be taken as more powerful than Jupiter (as lord of Pisces)...more apparent in the life, his nature more prominent. But we also notice that Jupiter disposes Neptune, so he is not without influence. Jupiter and Neptune are exactly parallel, southern.

The whole-chart pattern shows two-thirds of the sky occupied by planets with one-third empty. Pluto is the leading planet (as the whole pattern turns through the sky during the day [diurnal motion, "primum mobile"]), he is "first"...he leads the parade, is the Drum Major. Pluto's influence pervades every facet of life; he is preeminent. This pattern (called the Locomotive) denotes a temperament that is driven and driving, goal-oriented and demanding.

The square of Sun to Saturn is partile and is strrongly angular -- with Sun more emphasized because of his proximity to the Lower Angle (roots, home & family issues with the parents at focus, the latter years of the life and "the end of the matter", the racial unconscious [inherited]) his position at focus of the T-square, and the combustion of Moon.

Saturn's aspects are all "bad" (note the partile quincunx to Mars, who he disposes. And Mars, though exalted, is intercepted). Saturn's lord, Mercury, is Stationary Retrograde and in his fall/exile.

Common signs are preponderant, with a stellium in Pisces (strongly angular). Water is preponderant, with the Pisces configuration plus Scorpio on the Ascendant.

If I were interested in learning about myself through astrology, I would begin my study with Pluto. Although I use Mars as lord of Scorpio (lord of the Horoscope, the Rising Sign), Pluto can be taken as co-ruler here, particularly because of the exceptionally powerful role he plays in the life due to his position in the whole-chart pattern. Mars is also emphasized by several factors. Although Pluto is not technically "elevated", he is the planet highest in the sky -- he stands above the other planets -- and this adds to the power of the urge to transcendence that is brought to the fore of the life.

Also very powerful is the combustion of the Lights (of itself and also central to the stellium in Pisces and the Common T-square...plus angularity).

These are the two areas I would focus on in this chart. They will set the tone of the life.

Just about the transit specifically:

It does seem like Saturn through 12th would be particularly jarring. Just because Saturn is about structure, and 12th house is the house of all things unstructured. It makes me think of the kinds of dilemmas of trying to define something like faith, or love, and accidentally putting the concepts into boxes and narrowing their scope (or like using astrology to define a person ); or alternatively, saying God and miracles don't exist because you can't prove it through the scientific method. Saturn turns a critical eye to all those things that are suspect because they aren't clear.

This transit, to me, and modified by the "whole chart" as talked about earlier, is about setting boundaries where there were none. Or attempting to define parts of the life that had gone undefined. Perhaps this could be good, perhaps upsetting, depending on the natal Saturn and relationship to it, and how prominent the 12th house is (how much is difficult to define). If that is what hardships are going on right now, perhaps this transit has something to do with it.

Does that sound possible?

I think you can get the gist of the Saturn transit by all the posts here...it is also about redefining yourself and creating new structures of reality for you...to do that you have to move away from the past and find ways to purge yourself of the negative attitudes that serve to keep you imprisoned within your own mind. Mercury is not just about communications it is also about our individual mind set and thinking style. Thoughts are things, and if we think negatively, we will only perceive negativity in the world around us.
The focus of all that energy in Pisces creates a reality that longs for close and personal relations with others, and while it seems that you have missed out on that, it is only because you have forgotten your everlasting connection with your inner divinity. Obviously intuition is strong, but you may need to set boundaries on the tendency to live in a dream world, as Saturn demands. The Saturn/Neptune opposition plays strongly into that as well, showing a potential disconnect between reality and the 'dream of life' that you are living. I'm sure you've heard the comment about taking a 'reality pill.'
Perhaps your challenge is about disconnecting from the Matrix, and breaking free of the illusions about what life is supposed to be. Pisces in it's ideal expression is about transcending the limitations of the material world, and seeking more meaning through spiritual awareness and understanding.
Your Mercury in Pisces is a very sensitive one, and the opposition from Pluto, and square Saturn is about toughening yourself up. Your mind can be too caught up in the past, and thus you are apt to miss the creative potentials of every living day in the present. This mind can be prone to strong yearnings that may never be realized, thus leading to the disillusionment and despair you may be feeling. Pluto is telling you that you need to take control of your mind, and direct it appropriately, rather than allowing it to 'control you', in order to break the square influence with Saturn. Your Sun/Moon/Mercury conjunct denotes the relationship of caretaker with your mother in youth, and yes such early responsibilities do tend to strip us of the joy and enchantment in the world. Saturn puts heavy restraints on us [responsibilities and obligations], which we must eventually work to overcome, and that is where achievement is offered.
You can change your perspectives by realizing that there is a big difference between obligations placed on us by others, and being accountable for our own playing out of cause and effect. Obligations merely create resentment and frustration; we must remember that we must also be responsible for ourselves, without blame or regret.
When you begin to realize that we are all recovering from something in our past, and see it more objectively by adhering to the lessons we learned and the willingness to change in the present, it becomes easier to realize that we are all part of a Universal Mind with a collective agenda. It is not just us alone in the world, even if we are isolated or detached from others.
Having been in your shoes, I am here to say that things can be changed from within, and a full recovery is possible with increased awareness and making necessary mental adaptations; what is created in reality is born through our thoughts. The afflictions in your chart can be lessened by utilizing the energies of Uranus [the Creative Intellect] and it's positive trine to Saturn in particular, along with the other supportive aspects shown in your chart. I tell you now that you will survive this, it is only a matter of making the choice between being a victim, or a true victor. My wish for you is that the mysticism and intuition of your Pisces energy will bring you to a higher perspective and understanding about the true meaning and purpose of life. Blessed be.

kimbermoon said:

Perhaps your challenge is about disconnecting from the Matrix, and breaking free of the illusions about what life is supposed to be. Pisces in it's ideal expression is about transcending the limitations of the material world, and seeking more meaning through spiritual awareness and understanding.
Your Mercury in Pisces is a very sensitive one, and the opposition from Pluto, and square Saturn is about toughening yourself up.

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A lot of my peers seemed seemed to want to live in the Matrix, and missed the point of the movie entirely: that reality is more fantastic than fiction. It was even more evident with how the sequels play out, making the Matrix "real", spiraling out into an even more remote fantasy, that more than a few people I know were obsessed over. It's that Neptune/Uranus conjunction in Cap crowd. Glad I missed that by a few years (my prejudice is showing). Seems like Intuitive One is older than that, though, so the analogy might be better received.

The "Matrix" illustrates that Saturn/Neptune dynamic really well. The Matrix was a world of self-imposed limitations (Saturn) that could be transcended to create a fantasy world in which you could do whatever you wanted (Neptune), yet that required a rejection of reality (Neptune) as the reality outside of the Matrix was harsh (Saturn). Within the Matrix and without, Saturn was at play, but within the Matrix, Saturn was a burden and outside it revealed truth that enabled survival. And that leads to where Saturn can help Pisces/Neptune. If escape is the goal, Saturn will be nothing but trouble, but if actualizing your potential is the goal, Saturn can help you get there. Saturn can say, "you will not be a victim" to Pisces, if Pisces embraces Saturn.

Wow, I hope it's ok to completely run with your analogy kimbermoon. I really think it's a good one.

The 12th House rules prisons, monasteries....highly structured environments.
The 12th House is the joy of Saturn.

In previous posts and threads referring to the 12th House, I have underscored the more difficult, painful, and dark characteristics of this house -- because folks have a tendency, not liking darkness, to paint the 12th in bright cheery colors. It is a dark house. But it does have very constructive qualities.

Between the spring of 2002 and spring of 2004 Saturn transited my 12th House.

The 12th House can be seen as a mansion of personal rebirth. The old self sheds its skin and emerges a new creature, a truly individualized person. True, the seed dissolves and identity is temporarily lost, but in this process the potential of the new being is released. Redemption can occur here. This house contains inner experiences that bring one to social independence through individuation.

Saturn is the planet of personal identity. It differentiates us as individuals from others. As an evolutionary planet ("the planet of karma"), Saturn's energies -- when our fears are met and overcome, when we have "learned our lessons", when we meet our duties and obligations with acceptance and even joy -- are positive forces that lead to our establishment as an individual, to our realization of selfhood.

Combine these two ideas...the idea of the 12th with the passing influence of Saturn as he progresses through his cycles...and see what you come up with.

As mentioned, the period between 2002 and 2004 was marked by the transit of Saturn through my 12th, my age being 60-62. Age is an important factor in evaluating transits and other predictive measures; a Saturn transit of the 12th at age 7-9 is not the same as the same transit at age 60-62.

So what happened during this last Saturn transit? In short, my life changed FOR THE BETTER. The results of this passage are clearly and unequivocally positive. After a lifetime of constant and uncontrollable drifting, I settled into one place, determined to stay. The polishing of character/personality traits proceeded positively -- I was "overcomng" the self, learning secrets of healing the self and applying them fruitfully. I broke free of a long-standing relationship with Jose Cuervo, definitively and finally. I was able to retire, freed from the bonds of immediate financial need. I bought a house.

Jupiter stands near the 12th cusp in my chart and is lord of the 6th. As Saturn passed over him, a long period of difficult health problems began.

The 12th is the house of bondage. But it is also the house of liberation. Look at the main events, the trend of events, in my life during this transit. Do you see liberation? It is all over the place, if we understand what liberation means.

There is a big difference between astrological theory (what we read in the textbooks, and also what others may tell us in response to our questions) and actual applied astrology -- the real life conditions and events that correspond to, for example, the transit of the 12th by Saturn.

Flapjacks says "It does seem like Saturn through 12th would be particularly jarring. Just because Saturn is about structure, and 12th house is the house of all things unstructured. This is "theory" -- "it does seem like...." He says that the 12th House passage of Saturn "sets limits", yet -- apart from the health problems -- it seems pretty clear that this final transit of Saturn through my 12th was liberating, not limiting. (And Flapjacks, I am not criticizing what you said...you happened to be a handy example illustrating what I am talking about.)

The reason the transit was liberating is that I had worked on "self-improvement" (there was plenty of room for work in this area) for a lifetime, and it took 60 years for the results of that work to begin to manifest. Remember, Saturn is the planet of time, and it requires time to show its wonderful positive side (when you are a wild and spiny tumbleweed.)

greybeard said:

The 12th House rules prisons, monasteries....highly structured environments.

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I do think 12th, despite being involved with imprisonment and other structured entities, still presides over a lack of structure, being a quality of many of the things that are associated with it: intuition, subconscious mind, dreams, imagination, hidden things, intangibles. Saturn likes structuring whatever it encounters... like I said, trying to define the intangible, for instance, which does not lend well to it. Not like, say 2nd house, dealing with money... or 5th house, dealing with social gatherings.

greybeard said:

So what happened during this last Saturn transit? In short, my life changed FOR THE BETTER. The results of this passage are clearly and unequivocally positive. After a lifetime of constant and uncontrollable drifting, I settled into one place, determined to stay. The polishing of character/personality traits proceeded positively -- I was "overcomng" the self, learning secrets of healing the self and applying them fruitfully. I broke free of a long-standing relationship with Jose Cuervo, definitively and finally. I was able to retire, freed from the bonds of immediate financial need. I bought a house.

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Structuring what was unstructured does seem to fit here.

greybeard said:

Flapjacks says "It does seem like Saturn through 12th would be particularly jarring. Just because Saturn is about structure, and 12th house is the house of all things unstructured. This is "theory" -- "it does seem like...." He says that the 12th House passage of Saturn "sets limits", yet -- apart from the health problems -- it seems pretty clear that this final transit of Saturn through my 12th was liberating, not limiting. (And Flapjacks, I am not criticizing what you said...you happened to be a handy example illustrating what I am talking about.)

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Limits can be liberating, depending on how you feel about them. You did set limits... buying a house comes with obligations and imposes limits on your money and your freedom to move without such obligations. But if you feel more secure because of it, it liberates in ways that weren't possible without the house, for example.

I'd also call it conjecture not theory. Theory is being way too generous.

Flapjacks, I can see it from your perspective. Valid points.

Saturn IS structure. Wherever he happens to be he brings structure. So it isn't the 12th House alone that feels his presence.

I posted for the benefit of the OP, to illustrate that the passage of Saturn through the 12th can be a very positive time.

I'll repeat what I said:
The 12th House can be seen as a mansion of personal rebirth. The old self sheds its skin and emerges a new creature, a truly individualized person. True, the seed dissolves and identity is temporarily lost, but in this process the potential of the new being is released. Redemption can occur here. This house contains inner experiences that bring one to social independence through individuation.

Saturn is the planet of personal identity. It differentiates us as individuals from others. As an evolutionary planet ("the planet of karma"), Saturn's energies -- when our fears are met and overcome, when we have "learned our lessons", when we meet our duties and obligations with acceptance and even joy -- are positive forces that lead to our establishment as an individual, to our realization of selfhood.

Combine these two ideas...the idea of the 12th with the passing influence of Saturn as he progresses through his cycles...and see what you come up with.

I see it as positive, too... if the goal is growth instead of escape. But Saturn transits can always be a bit daunting, even if they end up being good.

That is what I hoped to convey to Intuitive One, so I hope that got across.

You know I have much respect for you greybeard, thanks for considering my point of view.

flapjacks...

Well said...what has been missed in your review, however is that the Matrix was not a self-imposed fantasy, it was in fact the prison that was created as a computer module by the 'aliens'. We saw that the purpose of humans was to produce babies that were kept incubated to be used as batteries to fuel the matrix. Neo found himself waking up plugged into that Matrix, whereby he was an office worker caught up in the mundane world of 'sameness'; note how everyone was dressed the same and seemed robotic in their actions. He was then stalked by the 'aliens' but ended up being rescued by Morpheous, who explained the fact that those plugged in were totally controlled by outside forces; he was then given the choice of whether to know the truth, by taking one pill, or staying under the domination of that controlled world by taking the other pill. This was not a fantasy world at all; the people outside of the Matrix were living the true reality who had survived a cataclysmic devastation when the aliens first attacked. They had escaped being plugged into the Matrix. “It is not the spoon that bends, rather it is only yourself that 'adapts'.
Yes Saturn/Neptune is the difference between what is true reality, and that which is not. I know of it's influence since I have the conjunct in my 12th H. Neptune is not only about fantasy, it is also about spirituality and transcending the limits of the material world, which is in fact the Matrix; or it is opposed by deception and trickery. In 60 years, I have learned to transcend the lies and deception that have been created for us by government control and the military-industrial complex. Do you see? As long as we remain plugged in, we will not progress and advance in our evolution. With the explosion of computer technology, we see that what was once considered fantasy is now science. I would also note that the Uranus/Neptune generation is about conceiving newer, more creative and innovative ways of living once they are freed from the illusory world that has been created for them. The mission is about making collective changes, starting with each individual, that will bring in major social/political and economic changes for the betterment of humanity at large. Perhaps they will be more easily able to utilize the Uranian freedom and independence to see beyond a reality that has been created for them by others and stand up in order to make those necessary changes. You might try reading the Seth Material by Jane Roberts to get the gist of what constitutes true 'reality' as it explains in detail how we come to form our own personal reality. Whose reality are you living anyway? Thanks for your post.

Great post, Kimbermoon!
I hope Intuitive One is reading on and feeling good about what's being said here because I find this a pretty intellectually exciting thread. Which makes me feel really bad, actually, because it's really about Intuitive One and the difficult time she's having now. So I hope we can get the best of both worlds: I hope Intuitive One is finding some comfort in what's shaping up to be a great conversation.
I want to post some thoughts on Intuitive One's charts but don't have time right now. Maybe later tonight if I can get to it...
In the mean time, thanks Intuitive One, Kimbermoon, Greybeard and Flapjacks for what you've posted so far...