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  #1  
Unread 12-25-2010, 03:27 AM
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Will he ever want to be serious?

Merry Christmas everyone!

Okay, I've been seeing a close friend of mine steadily for about 3 months now. To make a long story short he is recently divorced, and while our relationships is very good and he even surprised me with a vacation to the Carribean in February, he will throw around comments about how he is not sure he will ever want to be married again or committed. I knwo that's probably normal after what he just went through and our relationship being so new, but I do worry that I may invest a lot of time in this relationship and wind up without a commitment from him.

So.. my question was "will he ever want to be serious or commit to me?"

First, I realize a made a classic mistake by asking a "will this ever happen" question. I know it is better to ask for a specific timeframe. The chart is radical, though.

I am the Moon applying a conjunction to the ASC. The Moon is in its own sign and conjuncting the fortunate star Sirius. I hope this is a message from the heavens to stop worrying so much. Based on my own past bad experience, I start to worry when things are going RIGHT because that's when the rug has typically gotten pulled out from under my feet.

He is exalted in Saturn but in the 4th house. The 4th house is typically associated with endings, so maybe it is referring to his state of mind right now and how he is feeling pessimistic about relationships?

The Moon is in a partile square with Saturn, and it is separating. I was taught that a square can be a yes, but with much difficulty. Does this mean that he DOES feel like he wants to commit, but the square shows his extreme emotional block right now?

The next aspect is a trine with Jupiter in 9 somethings. Jupiter is his communication house and my house of trips and travel. Maybe this shows our upcoming vacation together, and the trine is showing a favorable outcome.

I believe the trine is also the last aspect since Uranus isn't typically considered in horary.

All in all, I don't see a glaring 'yes' but I don't see a 'no', either and it looks like our trip will go well. Am I on the right track?


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Unread 12-25-2010, 03:48 AM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

Our AW traditionalist horary experts will be able to tell you if your analysis is on the right track, but for me (as I think you already know) with the sign (Cancer) positing the South Node, rising in the 1st house, I consider this to be a stricture vs judgement and, if you had come to me with this horary, I would have said for you to re-ask this same question again at a later time.
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Unread 12-25-2010, 04:59 AM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

Hi MK,
The trip will go well, yes, Moon trine Jupiter in this chart is fortunate. There isn't any particular reception between Moon/Saturn though so it looks like a no to your question; you didn't specify a time frame. It would be great if you could update after the trip.
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Unread 12-25-2010, 05:47 AM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

In the Primary Ankara horary technique (which I call it) that I frequently use, a "no" answer to this question would also have been given because of their "rule" that the South Node in the ascending sign "always" means "no" regardless of other chart testimonies.
However, this is the one concept (from what I learned about the Ankara horary methods ) which I do not follow, because of my being influenced by the indications from Gerard of Cremona and Agrippa which have proven their value in my experience time and again, making me consider this placement to mean that interpretation of the chart is rendered likely unreliable, so for me its a stricture vs judgement rather than a "no" and that's why I would have said to re-ask the same question later...
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Unread 12-25-2010, 05:52 AM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayAustin View Post
Hi MK,
The trip will go well, yes, Moon trine Jupiter in this chart is fortunate. There isn't any particular reception between Moon/Saturn though so it looks like a no to your question; you didn't specify a time frame. It would be great if you could update after the trip.
Yeah, once I realized my mistake of not specifying a time frame I knew the usefulness of this horary would be limited. Dr. Farr- maybe this is what your stricture picks up on? It is reflecting what is happening right now it seems, without a final outcome. I know he isn't interested in committment right now, although he is putting everything he CAN give in the relationship right now. You are right, I will wait and see how this progresses and ask again after the trip. Thank you both!
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Unread 12-25-2010, 06:10 AM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

It could well be what my stricture is picking up on; I have encountered this several times before, and wouldn't surprise me at all if this is the actual situation here.
Have a great trip! ...and happy holidays!
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Unread 12-25-2010, 01:27 PM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

Thank you Dr. Farr! I am beyond excited. The trip is in late February, I will update then. It is remarkable that Jupiter is so strong here in its own sign AND house. Happy holidays to you too!

Last edited by misskitty; 12-25-2010 at 01:31 PM.
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Unread 12-25-2010, 03:05 PM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

Quote:
Originally Posted by misskitty View Post
Yeah, once I realized my mistake of not specifying a time frame I knew the usefulness of this horary would be limited. Dr. Farr- maybe this is what your stricture picks up on? It is reflecting what is happening right now it seems, without a final outcome. I know he isn't interested in committment right now, although he is putting everything he CAN give in the relationship right now. You are right, I will wait and see how this progresses and ask again after the trip. Thank you both!
Great, look forward to it. Uranus may also specify some peculiarity, surprise or other sudden thing. Let me know.

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Unread 12-25-2010, 04:25 PM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

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Originally Posted by RayAustin View Post
Great, look forward to it. Uranus may also specify some peculiarity, surprise or other sudden thing. Let me know.

R.a.
Man I hope not, or if it is a surprise I hope it is positive. My stomach lining can't take any more negative surprises after the emotional rollercoaster I've been on the last two years. It is a trine at least!

Last edited by misskitty; 12-25-2010 at 04:32 PM.
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Unread 12-25-2010, 07:51 PM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

Hi All,

Does Kitty's moon in the 12th mean anything? It's also conj. her ascendant. Is there any significance here?

Thanks, trying to learn!

And Kitty, good luck on your trip!
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  #11  
Unread 12-26-2010, 04:29 AM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

wishing you good luck with it all misskitty.
just for my benifit here but were u hormonal at the time of asking this question?
moon in the 12th = worried about things
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Unread 12-26-2010, 10:57 AM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Our AW traditionalist horary experts will be able to tell you if your analysis is on the right track, but for me (as I think you already know) with the sign (Cancer) positing the South Node, rising in the 1st house, I consider this to be a stricture vs judgement and, if you had come to me with this horary, I would have said for you to re-ask this same question again at a later time.
This will be Chart #15 with 13 disasters and still waiting feedback on #14 (the "will I lose my job" question from Australica).

Quote:
Originally Posted by misskitty
The 4th house is typically associated with endings, so maybe it is referring to his state of mind right now and how he is feeling pessimistic about relationships?
Not possible. The Chart's 4th House is his 10th House. He is ecstatic about his new-found freedoms.

As far as the 4th House being the "end of the matter" in Horary, I've shown that to be very bad astrology.

Lily does use the 4th House as a House of Ending for 1st House questions, since those questions are Life/Death/Health etc and 4th House is the natural end of "Life" but not the natural end of other things.

He makes mention of it again in an Horary on Real Estate, which is a 4th House Matter, so he takes signification from the 4th House because it represents Real Estate.

The last time he mentions it is in the context of a law suit. In that Horary, Lily is NOT looking at the 4th House, he is looking at the House opposite the judge, which just happens to be the Chart's 4th House, but it is is the judge's 7th House, and that is a very important distinction. If he would be looking at the judge's 4th House, which would be the Chart's 1st House, that would be something different.

Also, Bonatti in his listing of Arabic Parts/Greek Lots mentions a Part/Lot associated with the 4th House and with the "end of the matter" but not actually derived from the 4th House, and I think people have confused that with the 4th House being the "end of the matter."

Quote:
Originally Posted by misskitty
The Moon is in a partile square with Saturn, and it is separating. I was taught that a square can be a yes, but with much difficulty.
If and only if there is Reception, and even then there must be other supporting factors in the chart.

A square without Reception means it will happen only after the Earth spirals into the Sun.

Cancer is the Detriment of Saturn, so Saturn is not thrilled with the Moon. At 14° Libra, the Moon holds no dignity, so this is a square without Reception.

It has separated by 6' but Lily and a few others would consider it to still be operable, because it is the Moon (the speed of the Moon). If it were Mars separating, they would consider it have separated because Mars is a heavier Planet and moves slower.

If we ignore that for a moment, the aspect still functions until they have fully separated by 1°. What Abu'mashar and Masha'allah and others say is that if it is a Benefic, the signification is that it gives the Querent false hope. If it is a Malefic, it only serves to frighten the Querent.

Saturn is Exalted, Direct, Fast, Angular and Below Horizon, but is Occidental (West) of the Sun. The only impediment to Saturn would be the square from Moon, but that is from an Angular House and not a Cadent House.

Overall, I would consider Saturn to be Benefic here and not functioning as a Malefic, so the signification of Moon square Saturn without Reception would be one of false hope.

As far as your trip, I don't think that will go well, if it even happens.

Sorry, Moon does not trine Jupiter. The reason is that Mercury at 22° Sagittarius cuts off the light from the Moon because Mercury is closer in aspect.

The aspect is not partile, but still it is less than 1° at 38' of arc. Mercury is still fast here and will perfect his square with Jupiter before Moon perfects the trine, so the trine between Moon and Jupiter is destroyed.

I also note his secondary significator Sun is square Jupiter (with Reception). Mercury and Sun are also in his 12th House (your 6th House).

Quote:
Does Kitty's moon in the 12th mean anything? It's also conj. her ascendant. Is there any significance here?
By Whole Sign Moon is definitely 1st House, but we read Planets within 5° of the Cusp as being in the House, because the Planet projects no power at the end of the House, and also the Moon doesn't even rule the 12th House.

For other Questions, a Planet conjunct the Ascendant would be significant, but not in relationship questions. That doesn't mean it has no signification, it does and here it means the Querent is focused on herself.
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Last edited by BobZemco; 12-26-2010 at 11:00 AM.
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Unread 12-26-2010, 11:41 AM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

Quote:
By Whole Sign Moon is definitely 1st House, but we read Planets within 5° of the Cusp as being in the House, because the Planet projects no power at the end of the House, and also the Moon doesn't even rule the 12th House.

For other Questions, a Planet conjunct the Ascendant would be significant, but not in relationship questions. That doesn't mean it has no signification, it does and here it means the Querent is focused on herself.
Thanks Bob. As usual after reading your posts I always realize how much there is still to learn.

Alright, so the Moon is def. in the first. Does this mean the chart should be interpreted via Whole sign as you mention that it (moon) is not the ruler of the 12th?

There is really no set rule as to which house system to use. And for me, as a novice, it gets really confusing.
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Unread 12-26-2010, 02:40 PM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

Yes that's too bad, Mercury will actually interfere with the Moon/Jupiter trine.
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Unread 12-26-2010, 02:44 PM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco
For other Questions, a Planet conjunct the Ascendant would be significant, but not in relationship questions. That doesn't mean it has no signification, it does and here it means the Querent is focused on herself.
It really shouldn't matter. That's just your opinion, not a guideline or rule.
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Unread 12-26-2010, 02:57 PM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

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As far as the 4th House being the "end of the matter" in Horary, I've shown that to be very bad astrology.
You "showed" it? That implies practice. Where? How? I have shown it on these boards to be very symbolic and it is usually very meaningful in a relationship horary if the 7th lord is in the 4th or 10th (or a malefic or benefic posited therein, etc). Results speak clearly.

For example, a love horary with Saturn conj. Vindemiatrix (fixed star associated with widowhood, deception) in the tenth -- a very ominous position and obvious warning that things won't end well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyscript
In Horary Astrology:
The querent's father.
Property for sale, lease agreements (tenants are shown by the 6th), boundaries, and descriptions of buildings and gardens.
In questions concerning missing persons or lost items, the 4th describes the nature of the surface beneath them and in murder cases can help to describe the location of the body. It is often used to represent the 'end of the matter' and Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson considers the turned 4th from any house to show the conclusion of the business attributed to it (ie., the 3rd house shows the resolution of 12th house matters).
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h4.html
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Last edited by RayAustin; 12-26-2010 at 03:01 PM.
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Unread 12-26-2010, 04:05 PM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

Oh no guys, I am so embarrased. I have been using the internet on my phone since visiting my parents over the holidays. Needless to say plenty gets missed when you are surfing on a tiny 2x4 inch screen. I just realized that when I drew up this chart I hit "November" instead of "December!" I asked this question on Christmas Eve! I'm so sorry for the time wasted on this chart!!

I drew up the REAL chart, but it doesn't look good. No aspect between our significators.

I'm the Sun in the 5th house. He is Saturn exalted in the 3rd.

The Moon is in the 1st house, and I have read that means that I am fluctuating on the question asked. I am not, though! Bob mentioned it might mean that I'm too focused on myself-- and I can see that in the sense that I'm afraid to get hurt so I"m focused on my intuition and I also "want what I want" with him. Moon is in a fixed sign, so things are unlikely to change soon.

The ruler of his 5th, Mercury, is in Retrograde and is sitting in my 5th. It is applying a square to the ruler of my 5th, Jupiter. Ouch.

I don't think this situation will change anytime soon.

The only positive thing I see is that the Moon is about to complete the trine to the POF.

Again, so sorry for the confusion everyone.


Last edited by misskitty; 12-26-2010 at 04:21 PM.
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Unread 12-26-2010, 04:12 PM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

Hi Misskitty,
I have seen this configuration before similarly when Sun was in Sagittarius. It is not a good configuration, Saturn is in fall of Sun and rather exaltation of himself so would not submit to your desires whatsoever. At the same time, Saturn does enjoy your interest in him.

We also have Venus ominously as the tenth ruler (relationship outcome) ill-placed in her fall in Scorpio in the fourth, suggesting things do not work out well in the love and romance arena.

We also, also have Moon as the twelfth ruler in your first, an ill indication, and she is also about to oppose Neptune (interestingly enough, as she also biquintiles Uranus); which makes me wonder if there has been severe deception involved or perhaps you are making some illusions to yourself about this man.
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Unread 12-26-2010, 04:29 PM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayAustin View Post
We also, also have Moon as the twelfth ruler in your first, an ill indication, and she is also about to oppose Neptune (interestingly enough, as she also biquintiles Uranus); which makes me wonder if there has been severe deception involved or perhaps you are making some illusions to yourself about this man.
That is frightening. I don't know what to do about any of it. I don't know what he could be hiding. I thought the fact that the significator was exalted showed integrity for the quisited?
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Unread 12-26-2010, 04:56 PM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

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That is frightening. I don't know what to do about any of it. I don't know what he could be hiding. I thought the fact that the significator was exalted showed integrity for the quisited?
That is true, but you should also consider that the house ruler Venus is in the sign of her dishonor. I'm not saying he's necessarily hiding something, but there is something you might not be seeing (which could be voluntarily hid or not).

Also, I'm experimenting with the minor aspects so take it with a grain of salt.
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Last edited by RayAustin; 12-26-2010 at 05:00 PM.
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Unread 12-26-2010, 05:07 PM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

Ok, thanks Ray. Deception had been such an ugly theme in my past relationships that it truly frightens me to think of it occurring again. Maybe the deception is that I'm imagining/hoping he is further along emotionally than he really is. He isn't ready for what I want.
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Unread 12-26-2010, 05:10 PM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

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Originally Posted by misskitty View Post
Maybe the deception is that I'm imagining/hoping he is further along emotionally than he really is. He isn't ready for what I want.

Yes! I actually think that's moreso the case since this is something you're aware of.
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Unread 12-26-2010, 06:29 PM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

I don't know anything about interpreting horary charts, but I am familiar with the concept. And, based on the concept, my intuition tells me the you should use the first chart, because it was not a 'mistake'. Just my 2 cents
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Unread 12-27-2010, 12:21 AM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

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I don't know anything about interpreting horary charts, but I am familiar with the concept. And, based on the concept, my intuition tells me the you should use the first chart, because it was not a 'mistake'. Just my 2 cents
I don't believe the first chart is valid at all, horary is very specific.

I understand it is a no, what I don't get is why there is no reception. I was under the impression that he cares for me a great deal.

I'm not good with advice charts, so I turned to tarot and did the three card spread. I got the Lovers in past position. Nine of Swords (depression, worry) in present position, and Ace of Cups (good karma, fertility, marriage) in the future position. No cards were reversed. I'm so confused.

Last edited by misskitty; 12-27-2010 at 12:45 AM.
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Unread 12-27-2010, 01:48 AM
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Re: Will he ever want to be serious?

Interesting about the 1st chart: the stricture I follow re to SN in the ascending sign, says that the given chart is unreliable for horary delineation: well it was in this case, the wrong date being used; I have experienced this phenomenon several times, with SN in ascending sign and the horary chart being erected for the wrong time (once it was for the wrong location)


Since you have done a Tarot reading about the matter, I shall convert your 2nd horary's astro-data into a Major Arcana symbol and see what that might have to say...

Last edited by dr. farr; 12-27-2010 at 02:06 AM.
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