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Research and Development This is a forum designed for applying scientific methods and understanding to all approaches of astrology, cooperative formulation and testing of new ideas, re-examination of known methods of delineation and interpretation, and the exploration of new astrological methods of all kinds (e.g. heliocentric models, planetary nodes and apogees, etc.).


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  #76  
Unread 12-04-2014, 09:39 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

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And you know this because you too spent 40 years in the trenches of professional counseling. Only the rich can afford psycho-therapy, and when they do, it takes them no where toward behavioral change. The rest of us have to have our HMO or ourselves pay for it, and they won't pay.

I abandoned it because it doesn't cause behavior change. The goldstandard of counseling success is not insight, its behavior change.

I don't know where you are getting this information.

This thread is going back to a lot of people who don't know the realities,
but who read lots of stuff on the internet.

The internet is a reality
and a useful resource
for entire texts
which are available online
without the need to purchase the book
and as such is valuable for research

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #77  
Unread 12-04-2014, 10:34 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

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Oh....God! Yeah.... try to use the internet in your courses in any reputable college or university.

You actually believe that, don't you?

Is it any wonder that conversations here tend to disappear into internet trivia?

The internet is a MODERN form of communication
and a valuable one
frequently utilised by reputable colleges and/or universities


DREAM PSYCHOLOGY Sigmund Freud http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/15489

THE INTERPRETATION OF DREAMS Sigmund Freud
http://www.bibliomania.com/2/1/68/115/frameset.html

THE ORIGIN AND DEVELOPMENT OF PSYCHOANALYSIS Sigmund Freud 1901 http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Freud/Origin/origin1.htm

PSYCHOPATHOLOGY OF EVERYDAY LIFE Sigmund Freud
http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Freud/Psycho/
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #78  
Unread 12-04-2014, 10:35 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

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Only the rich can afford psycho-therapy, and when they do, it takes them no where toward behavioral change.
With all due respect, you are wrong. Also, psychotherapy is aimed at psychiatric disorders which are about more than simple behaviour change.

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Originally Posted by Zarathu View Post
I don't know where you are getting this information. Perhaps you think I'm lying about 40 years of professional experience. Why would I do that?
Empirical science.

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Originally Posted by Zarathu View Post
This thread is going back to a lot of people who don't know the realities,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20141265

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...3320CD6.f04t04

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...-REX9/abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15583112
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  #79  
Unread 12-05-2014, 12:42 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

With respect to psychological astrology, "psychology" is defined as the study (-ology) of the soul (psyche). Each human tries to make sense of his environment, even if he only ever meets himself in the process. Each person is a psychologist most of the time.

In recent history, distinctions have been made between lay psychologists, academic psychologists and clinical psychologists. Academic psychologists are researchers who apply empirical rigor to their work. Clinical psychologists recruit the outcomes of this research type through assessment and therapy. It is clear these distinctions are borne out by socio-economic factors. They are not reflective of all it means to practice psychology.

What distinguishes the professional variety psychologist from the lay counterpart is the philosophy which underpinns their work: Empiricism. Empiricism states that only events which are observable and replicable can count as knowledge. However, not all human experience is observable or repeatable, including a human himself. Spirituality, for instance, may be seen as the essence of human experience but it does not lend itself to quantification. The same is true with the notion of a thought. Astrology, which seeks to decipher existential mechanisms limited to the individual in time and space, by definition, cannot be an empirical science.

What is psychological astrology and what does one hope to achieve with it?

It seems clear, glorified psychologists may know the corner of their trade. However, their university degree does not qualify them as experts on the soul. To ignore this consideration is to ignore the very reason we are distinguishng psychologists from non-psychologists, in this thread, in the first place.

Astrology is psychological. We use it to assist our psychological dynamic. Do we need a professional psychologist to maximise its use? I dont know. Given that professional psychologists are defined by empirical practice, however, it makes more sense that this group do not offer astrology as part of their service since astrology is not empirically validated.

Whatever the origins of psychological astrology are, we speak of its destination. If some think psychological astrology should be used exclusively by professional psychologists, the onus is on them to first validate its use as a tool in order to eliminate bias and error effects, both of which breach ethical guidelines.

Last edited by Tessie; 12-05-2014 at 10:18 AM.
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  #80  
Unread 12-05-2014, 03:21 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

KnS, in reply:

No, I wouldn't define psychology as co-equal with psychoanalysis. That would be patently inaccurate. But neither do I see psychology as a convenient catch-all for anything and everything that non-psychologists might choose to identify with it.

I'd be curious to know how the "lumpers" define philosophy, religious studies, or the humanities as distinct from psychology.

Quote:
It almost sounds like you're trying to put psychological astrology on something of a pedestal and it should be this thing that adheres to "real" theories by "real" professionals. Chicken soup is a remedy, after all, even if a lowly, simple, or humble one.
No, I am not putting it on a "pedestal" but yes, there is a realty about the field of psychology that many non-psychologists apparently fail to grasp. Psychology in this sense is comparable to many other fields with both an academic research side as well as professional practice, such as accounting, social work, medicine, law, and public school teaching. Many fields without the academic research side further require their professionals to have training specific to their work, like an air brakes course and special driver's license for professional truck drivers.

Somehow astrologers feel they deserve an exceptionalist argument.

And are you truly comparing a food home remedy with the training required of a M. D.? If so, how would you feel about being treated by a do-it-yourself eye surgeon?

If you live in Arkansas, you might be interested in the following: http://psychologyboard.arkansas.gov/Pages/default.aspx The Arkansas Psychology Board was established by an act of your state legislature. I. e., what constitutes the practice of psychology in a consulting or clinical type of setting isn't up for grabs. It's a matter of law in your state.

The home page reads in part: "The major responsibility of the Arkansas Psychology Board is to ensure that the citizens of Arkansas are protected from misrepresentation, unethical practice, and/or incompetence in the practice of psychology. Therefore, in order to protect the citizens of Arkansas, the Board must approve the credentials of all applicants, schedule written examinations, and administer oral examinations. In addition, the Board investigates all allegations of possible ethical violations including but not limited to misrepresentation, unethical practice, and/or incompetence."

Further, if you look at the enabling legislation (2009):

"Pursuant to A.C.A. § 17-97-301, it is a misdemeanor for any unlicensed individual to
practice or hold him/herself out to the public as being engaged in the practice of
psychology. Use of any title incorporating "psychology," "Psychologist" or
"psychological," or any other title that, by implication, is associated with the practice
of psychology, shall be used only by licensed individuals except as provided in
A.C.A. § 17-97-307."

If I am reading section 5.4 correctly, the state of Arkansas requires practising psychologists to hold a Ph. D. in psychology. So the standard by which an astrologer could claim a "psychological astrology" practice given the above paragraph is high indeed.

Other states and Canadian provinces have similar laws that often specify that the applicant for a license possess a minimum of a Master's degree in psychology or an allied field (such as social work or counseling.)

But surely you knew all of this?

At least in Arkansas, anyone advertising his services as a "psychological astrologer" could be in violation of state law under section 4 of the ARKANSAS PSYCHOLOGY BOARD RULES AND REGULATIONS.




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Last edited by waybread; 12-05-2014 at 03:45 AM.
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  #81  
Unread 12-05-2014, 03:38 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Tessie, I couldn't disagree with you more about what psychology is and is not. If you doubt me, just let me know where you live and I will look up the requirements for practising consulting psychology in your jurisdiction. I will look up campuses in your area, and report on their activities.

Frankly, I think empirical research in psychology is a good thing. If I feel troubled enough to see a psychologist, I would like some evidence that her preferred school of thought and type of practice actually has a track record for producing beneficial results. I'd like to feel that her practice is based upon current research, not on Sigmund Freud's discredited oedipal complex or penis envy theories.

If I want insights on the soul, I might enlist the services of a member of the clergy or a self-help guru. I am not going to see a psychologist or psychiatrist.

Tessie, we might even be on the same page on some of your points if we both agreed that it would be best if modern astrologers simply dropped the label "psychological" except in the few cases where the astrologer actually has credentials in psychology as defined in his jurisdiction.

Psychology is not a catch-all phrase for anything and everything to do with the mind, the soul, the psyche, the spirit, human thought, behaviour, or the kitchen sink.
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  #82  
Unread 12-05-2014, 07:11 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Waybread, personal incredulity does not validate your argument. However, if you wish to advocate empirical psychology as the only psychology that exists, alongside being wrong, you may as well forget about "psychological astrology" since astrology is not empirical.
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  #83  
Unread 12-05-2014, 01:12 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread
No, I wouldn't define psychology as co-equal with psychoanalysis. That would be patently inaccurate. But neither do I see psychology as a convenient catch-all for anything and everything that non-psychologists might choose to identify with it.

I'd be curious to know how the "lumpers" define philosophy, religious studies, or the humanities as distinct from psychology.
A convenient catch-all it may well be, but I don't think the metric I'm suggesting is in anyway too extreme. Tessie has already helpfully pointed out that the etymology of psychology means "study of the soul" the only thing that's changed is people have disassociated their mental faculties from their spiritual faculties as you've demonstrated here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread
If I want insights on the soul, I might enlist the services of a member of the clergy or a self-help guru. I am not going to see a psychologist or psychiatrist.
This would, essentially, answer your second concern about our hypothetical "lumpers", but it should be noted that those are all areas that psychologists would no doubt study or consider in their cases, right?

Quote:
And are you truly comparing a food home remedy with the training required of a M. D.? If so, how would you feel about being treated by a do-it-yourself eye surgeon?
You've basically made my point for me here. What it seems like you've done here is separate the specialist from the general while not giving the general its due credit. If chicken soup is a feasible home remedy and thus, medicine, why isn't character analysis a form of psychology? It doesn't matter how base it is.

This is like saying Sun Sign astrology is not astrology. Sure, there is definitely more to astrology and it is an oversimplification, but saying Sun Sign astrology "isn't" astrology denies its history.

Quote:
Somehow astrologers feel they deserve an exceptionalist argument.
Yes, I can see this in the field. It reminds me of a conversation I had with someone a while back. I was expressing my disappointment that Liz Greene could do all this work with these fake credentials and she never faced any consequences for it, my friend poignantly asked "Did she ever meet with someone as a psychologist? Or did she meet them as an astrologer?"

Don't those tricky technicalities just tick you off?

I'm not sure what quoting the laws for my homestate were supposed to show or what cause they were intended to further. I do think it's interesting that a literal reading of the law suggests that the title "psychological astrologer" could be illegal and subject to investigation. But in my experience you do not need a Ph.D to be a psychologist. A Masters was enough, at least for my place.
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  #84  
Unread 12-05-2014, 06:34 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

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Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post

.....I was expressing my disappointment that Liz Greene could do all this work with these fake credentials and she never faced any consequences for it...

My friend poignantly asked "Did she ever meet with someone as a psychologist? Or did she meet them as an astrologer?"

Don't those tricky technicalities just tick you off? .........
Its time for us astrologers to be counted for and made official. We need a proper qualification and accrediation that is recognised by all....
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  #85  
Unread 12-05-2014, 08:59 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

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Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
Spock, and therein lies our disagreement. If I am interpreting you correctly, it seems like you believe that astrology has no inherent power to assist people. An astrological theorist does not seem the same or even vaguely similar to an astrologer or astrological practitioner. Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to dismiss you or your claims, I think many of them are valid, I just don't agree with them and that disagreement will make it difficult for the discussion to continue.
As a theorist I'm concerned with making astrological knowledge, thereby advancing "the state of the art." The practitioner uses astrology to help people. So what we do is, yes, dissimilar, but it doesn't mean I don't think astrology can be used to assist people. I think this is true even when the astrology being used is largely invalid, because much of the benefit of the consultation is in the nature of the astrologer-client interaction. But I also think having factually accurate astrological information to draw upon would greatly enhance the consultant's capacity to be helpful. That, in addition to a need simply to know how things work, is partly why I'm a theorist in the first place.

Quote:
That being said, I'm curious as to what purpose you think there is in astrology if it doesn't have practical application? Feel free to ignore this question, you certainly don't have to share this information with me if you don't want to.
As a matter of fact I do think it has practical applications, all the more so because it's knowledge of the psyche, not just the world around us. Of course, our knowledge of the correspondences between the heavens and ourselves would be more beneficial if it was more extensive and accurate.

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As for "the astrologer who is able to take their education and profession and apply it to their astrological work," I contend that at astrology's current developmental level, in which verbal games and other means of multiplying ways of being "right" substitute for empirically demonstrated correspondences, any event or knowledge or kind of effect can be made to seem relevant and valid.
Yes, I agree with this to an extent and especially agree with a point you made later about psychological astrologers essentially imposing psychology on astrology. My only concern is that you mention the ability to discuss or prove astrology empirically and repeatably. You mention it, but sort of just shrug your shoulders and wish silently "one day...". Do you honestly think there will ever be a day wherein astrological correspondences will be able to be demonstrated empirically like that?
While I think we'll know far more in the future than we know now, and that this knowledge will be empirically derived, that doesn't mean I don't think empirically derived knowledge presently exists. Although not widely accepted by astrologers, even those primarily concerned with astrology as knowledge per se, empirically derived concepts do exist, for instance in Grant Lewi's Heaven Knows What and especially his Astrology for the Millions, and in my article After Symbolism linked at the foot of this post. One concept that does have wide acceptance is Lewi's notion of the Saturn Return. What's predictable during the several month period when Saturn is transiting conjunct its natal place is not an external event but an agenda, a state of mind that results in a clarification of purpose, of how we want to contribute to society — that is, a career development. That this is an empirical insight, derived from observation, is reinforced by the fact that others have seen it. Hence Erica Jong's Fear of Flying is in essence an account of her Saturn Return. Gertrude Stein offers a more generalized account in Fernhurst: "It happens often in the twenty-ninth year of life that all the forces that have been engaged through the years of childhood, adolescence and youth in confused and ferocious combat range themselves in ordered ranks — one is uncertain of one's aims, meaning and power during these years if tumultuous growth when aspiration has no relationship to fulfillment and one plunges here and there with energy and misdirection during the storm and stress of the making of a personality until at last we reach the twenty-ninth year, the straight and narrow gateway and life which was all uproar and confusion narrows down to form and purpose and we exchange a great dim possibility for a small, hard reality." Stephen Arroyo in Astrology, Karma and Transformation (where I first encountered it) and Richard Tarnas in Cosmos and Psyche also quote this passage. Google Saturn Return and you'll discover quite a few astrologers have fairly detailed (and valid, in my opinion) things to say about the effects of this transit.

That pattern can be generalized. During each planet's transits conjunct, opening square, opposite and closing square its natal place a psychological force, which I've characterized as a motivational pattern, comes to the forefront, and recedes into the background in between. During these periods, whose durations are proportionate to the durations of the cycles of which they're a part — a few weeks for Mars, a few months for Saturn, a few years for Uranus — we become dissatisfied enough to make changes in our lives. That's why Lewi argued that during the Saturn Return free will is maximized, because the decisions and commitments we make at that time shape our lives for years to come, an insight that I think applies to the conjunctions, square and oppositions of other planetary transit cycles as well. These and other ideas in my article are based, however imperfectly, on observations (mine or others) rather than handed-down verbal associations and are therefore empirical rather than symbolistic. Hence a nascent empirical astrology already exists, albeit much remains to be done. The transition from symbolism to empiricism isn't something I'm silently hoping will occur "one day." It's happening right now, in our lifetime, and I'm convinced will one day (!) be seen by historians of science as a decisive turning point in the history of astrology.

Quote:
It seems impossible to separate one astrological influence from the next, and it's clear (in my interpretation of history, undoubtedly everyone has their own. ) that the reason why the modern world has seen so many different techniques to supposedly "explain" what is going on within any context is a complete ignorance of existing technique. I just have a hard time believing that astrology is going to be able to be at all scientifically recognized since each part is so interconnected with the next.
It might seem impossible but it isn't, otherwise astrological knowledge itself would be impossible. Astrological influences might not operate separately but we can nonetheless analyze experiences in such as way as to ascertain what each contributes to the whole. If you study people's lives and see similarities in the age periods 7 years, 14-15 years, 21-22 years and 28½ to 30, you're abstracting from the totality of experience that which is attributable to that rhythm. If you start with a given Jupiter transit and look back 3, 6, 9 and 12 years to see a similarity in those periods, that tells you what that rhythm contributes to the whole each time it recurs, and therefore what the "effect" of the transit is. Ditto for every other planet/transit cycle. It's not impossible in principle to separate these influences from one another. It's not easy, of course. Research involves what we can know, not what's easy to know, otherwise we'd already know it and discovering it wouldn't be an accomplishment.

Quote:
So, there's our divide. You strive for astrology to be academically recognized. I honestly couldn't care less. Anecdotal evidence is good enough for me.
I strive for astrology to be more coherent and accurate. When an event is considered by itself (which is what we mean by "anecdotal") rather than in relation to other events it doesn't tell us anything, therefore anecdotal "evidence" isn't good enough for me. The point is not academic recognition, which will take care of itself if we take care of business, but a more valid and accurate (and therefore useful) astrology. Even appropriately juxtaposed events are not, however, astrological effects per se. They're clues to astrological effects.
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  #86  
Unread 12-06-2014, 04:40 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

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Waybread, personal incredulity does not validate your argument. However, if you wish to advocate empirical psychology as the only psychology that exists, alongside being wrong, you may as well forget about "psychological astrology" since astrology is not empirical.
Tessie, you misread my post. Where did I say that "empirical psychology is the only psychology that exists?" My points were more nuanced. Try again?
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Last edited by waybread; 12-06-2014 at 04:46 AM.
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Unread 12-06-2014, 05:12 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Kaiousei no Senshi--

Etymology is a very useful sort of study. But the meanings of many words change over time. Psychology is one of them. Disciplines/fields of study are not static entities but they change and evolve.

I have to assume that you understand enough about the different divisions of psychological practice and research to have some sense of what they do. Unless they happen to have additional training, I don't think psychologists would claim to be members of the clergy. There is simply no need to claim too much for psychology when other sorts of professionals and lay volunteers claim skills in religious counseling.

Quote:
What it seems like you've done here is separate the specialist from the general while not giving the general its due credit. If chicken soup is a feasible home remedy and thus, medicine, why isn't character analysis a form of psychology? It doesn't matter how base it is.
I think you are over-stretching a point that doesn't hold-- and perhaps misinterpreted what I wrote. Surely you have some sense of the difference between a MD in a licensed medical practice and my heating up a can of Campbell's soup. You have an "apples and oranges" non sequitur in your reasoning here.

Quote:
This is like saying Sun Sign astrology is not astrology. Sure, there is definitely more to astrology and it is an oversimplification, but saying Sun Sign astrology "isn't" astrology denies its history.
No, it's not like that. Your analogy is inapt.

If you read Liz Greene's books, she often talks about meeting with clients to whom she applied her psychoanalytic methods. My guess is that she put up her shingle as an astrologer, not a psychologist. I suspect that even ca. 1971, both California and the UK had legislation defining the standards for psychologists in practice. She probably would have had to demonstrate successful completion of a given number of supervised clinical practice hours and passed a licensing board exam, for example. I don't think there is evidence that she did this.

I find it most interesting that anyone claiming to be a practising "psychological astrologer" in your state of Arkansas would probably be in violation of state law.

I've looked at criteria for being a clinical or counseling psychologist in several US states and Canadian provinces. The criteria vary as to the number of required supervised hours of practice and mandatory degrees-- but I don't think anybody simply gets to practice psychology for clients simply based upon how they choose to define psychology or whatever credentials they happen to have and thus find personally appropriate.

The point is, you and I don't get to subjectively invent the meaning of psychology once it enters any type of practice for clients. And many, many professions and categories are like this. You and I don't get to invent what it means to be an accountant, lawyer, Roman Catholic, citizen of the US, or the King of Spain.

Sure, we can go ahead and make up something. But it has no traction.

Inline, groups like ISAR, NCGR, and the AFA do offer exams for astrologers who want to show hard evidence of their qualifications. Currently in the US, the practice of astrology is primarily defined either as a form of entertainment or a free speech issue.

http://www.afan.org/inside/legal/the-law-and-astrology/
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Last edited by waybread; 12-06-2014 at 05:17 AM.
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Unread 12-06-2014, 05:47 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

[sorry--for some reason I couldn't input paragraph spacing in this post. W.]

Just to add further evidence about what it takes to practice psychology or something defined as psychological:

Here are a couple from the state of California. I don't know what they were like in 1971 but here is what they are like today:
http://www.guidetopsychology.com/be_psy.htm

"In the state of California (USA), where I am licensed, the term psychologist is protected by state law (Business and Professions Code Sections 2900-2918). This means that only a person who has passed the state licensing exams, and who therefore has a psychologist license, may call himself or herself a psychologist.

"Also, California law requires that to become a psychologist a person must have a doctoral degree in either psychology or education."
I looked up the relevant code for the state of California http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...file=2900-2919 and found that:
"(c) A person represents himself or herself to be a psychologist
when the person holds himself or herself out to the public by any
title or description of services incorporating the words "psychology,"
"psychological," "psychologist," "psychology consultation,"
"psychology consultant," "psychometry," "psychometrics" or
"psychometrist,"
"psychotherapy," "psychotherapist," "psychoanalysis,"
or "psychoanalyst," or when the person holds himself or herself out
to be trained, experienced, or an expert in the field of psychology."
...
"2903. No person may engage in the practice of psychology, or
represent himself or herself to be a psychologist, without a license
granted under this chapter, except as otherwise provided in this
chapter. The practice of psychology is defined as rendering or
offering to render for a fee to individuals, ... or
the public any psychological service involving the application of
psychological principles, methods, and procedures of understanding,
predicting, and influencing behavior, such as the principles
pertaining to ... emotions, and
interpersonal relationships; and the methods and procedures of
interviewing, counseling, psychotherapy, ... and interpreting tests
of mental abilities, aptitudes, interests, attitudes, personality
characteristics, emotions, and motivations."
The state of California today basically requires a doctorate degree in psychology, 2 years of supervised apprentice-like practice, and passing a board exam to become licensed. Apparently calling oneself a psychological astrologer in California without these credentials would be in violation of the state law design to protect clients from incompetent practitioners.
This article has further information on the designation "psychologist" for practitioners in the US, Canada, and the UK.
One would have to read the fine print of the legislation in various places to see how they handle labels like "psychological" or "psychotherapy" applied to some other type of practice but I doubt that it would be much different.
As indicated with the Arkansas law I posted yesterday, the purpose is to protect the public from unscrupulous or incompetent practitioners.
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spock View Post

As a theorist I'm concerned with making astrological knowledge, thereby advancing "the state of the art."
The practitioner uses astrology to help people.
So what we do is, yes, dissimilar, but it doesn't mean I don't think astrology can be used to assist people.
I think this is true even when the astrology being used is largely invalid,
because much of the benefit of the consultation is in the nature of the astrologer-client interaction
.

But I also think having factually accurate astrological information to draw upon would greatly enhance the consultant's capacity to be helpful.
That, in addition to a need simply to know how things work, is partly why I'm a theorist in the first place..........................

............I strive for astrology to be more coherent and accurate.
When an event is considered by itself
(which is what we mean by "anecdotal")
rather than in relation to other events
it doesn't tell us anything,
therefore anecdotal "evidence" isn't good enough for me.

The point is not academic recognition,
which will take care of itself if we take care of business,
but a more valid and accurate (and therefore useful) astrology
.
Even appropriately juxtaposed events are not, however, astrological effects per se.
They're clues to astrological effects.

'Scientists' theorise
then the 'scientific theory' is followed up by experimentation
to 'prove' the theory
When experimentation shows any theory is 'proven'
the theory becomes 'fact'

Interestingly however
at any time
any 'proven scientific theory'
could be disproved
and frequently is


Certainly, if astrology were 'more provable' or 'more coherent' and 'more acurate'
then astrology would be associated in the public mind with 'being a potentially serious science'
rather than a form of entertainment

in India astrology has the official status of 'being a science'
but in the West, astrologers are associated with wizards wearing pointed hats
accompanied by clothing besprinkled with glyphs of stars and planets
and/or
fairground 'psychics' juggling with mystical crystal balls
and astrologers are clearly regarded with some incredulity by the general public
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by spock View Post
Gratifying as it sometimes is to have people agree with me, in this instance you're agreeing with an opinion I didn't express.

In the first three sentences you quoted I was summarizing "the thrust of this discussion." I then continued,
"In the first place the person who chooses to consult with a psychological astrologer does so
because of the word astrology in the title,
because he believes in it and its efficacy.
That belief might be mistaken but he's not being misled
." [emphasis added]
. . .
Just to be absolutely clear, though, neither in my opinion is the person who calls himself a psychological astrologer.

I find it hard to imagine anyone so dimwitted as not to realize
that a psychological astrologer is an astrologer,
not an academic psychologist
.

The latter calls himself a psychological astrologer, not just "a psychologist,"
precisely because he's not trying to mislead the client,

who is after all almost certainly looking for an astrological consultation,
not a consultation with an academic psychologist
.
clearly then
by the quoted clarification
a psychological ASTROLOGER does not require ANY academic psychology qualification
in order to practice PSYCHOLOGICAL ASTROLOGY
I'd say, in order for it to be called psychological astrology, because I'm not talking about legal permission to practice or use the word "psychological" as part of the descriptor, which so far as I know is not at issue, but what it's reasonable to label it, whether as researcher or practitioner.

Quote:
because
clients seeking advice are seeking an ASTROLOGICAL consultation
AND NOT 'a consultation with an academic psychologist'

and so
a self-styled 'psychological astrologer' is not attempting to mislead clients
Exactly.

Quote:
because
when a client seeks ASTROLOGICAL advice from any ASTROLOGER
whether that person is a self-styled PSYCHOLOGICAL ASTROLOGER or not
knowledge of/familiarity with astrological techniques is the important factor
NOT psychological knowledge
Both are factors. My argument, as a theorist, is that astrological effects are psychological, that is, involve mental processes, and that if we have no notion of mental processes whatsoever there's no way we can recognize or refer to those processes as astrological effects. But not all mental processes are astrological effects. With few exceptions astrologers assume that astrology can shed light on anything we wish to know which, for psychologically minded astrologers, means any kind of psychological information we can imagine. In determining how psychological information can be obtained via astrology, which is to say which psychological effects correspond to which configurations, the correspondences are arbitrarily assigned, based on what seems logical to astrologers, rather than discovered by observing what consistently occurs at which intervals, and reasoning back from that to the actual underlying effects. Like the atomic particles physicists "observe" via vapor trails in cloud chambers, astrological effects aren't directly observable but must be inferred from their observable consequences, the things we do as a result of recurrent urges and needs (i.e., motivations) that are (in my opinion) the actual astrological effects. But astrologers who happen to have degrees in one or more areas of academic psychology are no more likely than those who don't to posit as astrological only those psychological effects that recur at intervals that correspond to planetary periods, and no more likely to accurately match configurations and effects via observation rather than arbitrarily assign them based on handed-down verbal associations.

Quote:
A psychological astrologer then simply DOES NOT REQUIRE academic psychology qualifications
such as for example, A DEGREE IN PSYCHOLOGY
Hence the word psychological is not misleading when it's combined, as it almost always is, with the word psychology or psychologer. Furthermore, the astrologer who has degrees in academic psychology is neither more entitled to the term nor necessarily more competent as a psychological astrologer than the astrologer who lacks them. An awareness of human beings as psychological beings is pretty much common currency these days. Beyond that, what differentiates a truly modern astrology from traditional astrology isn't the possession or lack of a degree but an empirical rather than symbolistic perspective. With the former we can clearly and unequivocally establish what goes with what, and ascertain what that tells us about the human mind, whereas with the latter we have so many factors and so much plasticity of meaning that any celestial factor can be made to (apparently) correspond to any terrestrial factor. Astrology does have some empirical content, but in its present form it in effect predicts all things at all times (which is why we can always "find" the "explanation" for an event or characteristic after the fact). However, an astrology that predicts all things at all times actually predicts nothing at all! The astrologer-with-psychological-degrees who doesn't realize this is no more advanced than the astrologer-without-psychological-degrees who doesn't realize it.
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Sorry, but we don't get to define what is "psychological" and what is not. Unless, I suppose, no sense of any type of practice is involved. We can say whatever we like in the privacy of our own homes or at the pub with friends.

We all know the difference between a psychologist and an astrologer (at least I hope we do.) But if Arkansas and California laws control even the word "psychological" as part of a professional title, and restrict it to people who meet the state criteria (graduate degree, clinical hours, licensing exam/s,) then it befits astrologers to call their work something else.

Frankly, I fail to see why this should be a problem. If a good astrologer simply calls himself an astrologer, does it take something away from him? Like what?

Incidentally, I visited with a couple who were both retired psychologists at a Christmas party last night. The province where they practiced (Saskatchewan) also requires a doctorate degree for clinical psychologists in practice.

I tried to find the criteria for practice in the UK the other night, and had to quit before I'd found it. But I did learn that British psychologists have to be registered with the National Health Service in order to practice.
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Sorry, but we don't get to define what is "psychological" and what is not. Unless, I suppose, no sense of any type of practice is involved. We can say whatever we like in the privacy of our own homes or at the pub with friends.

We all know the difference between a psychologist and an astrologer (at least I hope we do.) But if Arkansas and California laws control even the word "psychological" as part of a professional title, and restrict it to people who meet the state criteria (graduate degree, clinical hours, licensing exam/s,) then it befits astrologers to call their work something else.

Frankly, I fail to see why this should be a problem. If a good astrologer simply calls himself an astrologer, does it take something away from him? Like what?

Incidentally, I visited with a couple who were both retired psychologists at a Christmas party last night. The province where they practiced (Saskatchewan) also requires a doctorate degree for clinical psychologists in practice.

I tried to find the criteria for practice in the UK the other night, and had to quit before I'd found it. But I did learn that British psychologists have to be registered with the National Health Service in order to practice.
One of my earlier posts on this thread included criteria for practice not only in the UK
but also
in USA and Canada
as well as
Australia

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post


Clearly all are agreed that Psychologists study behaviour, motivations, thoughts and feelings
for the purpose of helping people overcome or control their problems.


Obviously excellent communication and listening skills are a necessary part of the work


Different countries have different qualification requirements

ASPPB is the association of psychology licensing boards in the United States and Canada
formed in 1961 to serve the psychology boards in the two countries.
ASPPB created and maintains a standardized written exam, the Examination for Professional Practice in Psychology (EPPP),
which is used by licensing boards to assess candidates for licensure and certification
http://www.asppb.net/

'.....ASPPB advocates for the advancement of mobility
by offering several mobility programs to assist in licensure of psychologists.
Committed to serving as a voice for those responsible for the regulation of the practice of psychology
ASPPB has drafted a Model Act, Model Regulations, a Code of Conduct and guidelines
for the use and/or adoption by state, territorial and provincial psychology boards.....'




AUSTRALIAN PSYCHOLOGICAL SOCIETY
http://www.psychology.org.au/studentHQ/studying/

'.....It's important when choosing a psychology degree
to ensure that the course is accredited by the Australian Psychology Accreditation Council (APAC),
as only graduates of APAC-accredited and Psychology Board of Australia-approved courses
are eligible to register to practise as a psychologist
.....' Read more about choosing a degree here.




In the UK

Psychologists need to complete a three-year degree in psychology,
followed by a three-year postgraduate qualification which relates to their chosen specialism
and only then is one qualified to specialise in ONE of the following areas:

EDUCATIONAL psychology - helping children and young people to overcome difficulties and further their educational and psychological development
OCCUPATIONAL psychology– helping businesses improve their performance and increase employee job satisfaction
HEALTH psychology – promoting healthy attitudes and behaviour, and helping patients and their families to cope with illness
COUNSELLING psychology – helping people resolve their problems and make decisions, particularly at stressful times in their lives
NEUROPSYCHOLOGY – helping patients with brain injuries and diseases to recover or improve their quality of life
FORENSIC OR CRIMINAL psychology – using psychological theory to help investigate crimes, rehabilitate offenders and support prison staff
CLINICAL psychology – working with people to help them deal with conditions ranging from anxiety and stress to depression and mental illness
SPORTS AND EXERCISE psychology – working with individuals, teams and organisations to improve motivation and performance in coaching, training and competition.


ALL of those afore-mentioned areas are potentially encountered by astrologers
for example in Horary astrology questions
as well as when studying basic natal chart questions


and so

the question arises

as to when astrology was ever NOT somehow connected to 'psychology'


Regarding BEHAVIORAL INFLUENCES there's interesting info for example
on the effects that a certain well-known beverage has on the human body
during the first hour of imbibing it
http://lookbetternakedblog.com/2014/...inking-a-coke/
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroNous View Post

I would like some light about the origins of psychological astrology.
How did it come to be? What cultures saw its birth first? Etc.

It would be interesting and useful to see how the ancients
approached the psychological aspect of the natal chart
in contrast with how modern astrologers approach it.


The more intellectually impacting the reply, the better. By intellectually impacting, I mean having strong logical implications. So to rephrase, the stronger the logical implications, the better. To define even further, there is a good chance that the "plebeian" word that defines something intellectually impacting is "mind-blowing".

Well, I hope I can get high quality knowledge out of this thread!
dr. farr posted the following comment
and it provides an answer to your question

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post

Two major influences on astrological thinking during the Renaissance time were
Marsilo Ficino (1400's)

and

Paracelsus (1500's)

Both emphasized the potential of Man to rise above fate, Paracelsus writing:

..."The Wise rule their planets; fools obey them"...



Yet both Ficino and Paracelsus also completely believed in Cosmic influences
(via the stars and signs and planets)
and the investigation of these influences by astrological delineation.


Ficino was the first to elaborate what we today would call "astro-psychology"

-see his "Works"
-or, for an excellent examination of this aspect of Ficino's astrology
(his "planetary depth psychology"),
see "Planets Within Us", by Thomas Moore
easily available on amazon books,
and from other sources

(the allegation that "astro-psychology" arose in the 20th century, is quite incorrect;
its origin is with Ficino in the late 1400's
)



Paracelsus' astrological concepts are scattered throughout his books,
but the epitome of his macrocosm/microcosm concept,
and of the potential for Man to rise above the deterministic influences surrounding him, is his "Astronomie Magna"
(there is also a good deal relating to astrological concepts in Paracelsus "Archidoxes of Magic" as well)

Paracelsus believed that the Cosmic influences could be channeled and applied
(by those who knew how)
for a wide variety of purposes (especially in healing),
this concept demonstrating Paracelsus view that Man
-unlike other creatures
-having the potential (through reason and knowledge)
ultimately to "control"
(or at least modify)
astrological influences.


Neither Ficino nor Paracelsus provide us with specific astrological techniques as such,
but rather they elaborate astrological concepts
and a very attractive, non-determinist astrosophic philosophy and outlook
regarding Man, Nature and the Cosmos.
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroNous View Post
I would like some light about the origins of psychological astrology. How did it come to be? What cultures saw its birth first? Etc.

It would be interesting and useful to see how the ancients approached the psychological aspect of the natal chart in contrast with how modern astrologers approach it.

The more intellectually impacting the reply, the better. By intellectually impacting, I mean having strong logical implications. So to rephrase, the stronger the logical implications, the better. To define even further, there is a good chance that the "plebeian" word that defines something intellectually impacting is "mind-blowing".

Well, I hope I can get high quality knowledge out of this thread!
dr. farr posted the following comment
and it provides an answer to your question


Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Two major influences on astrological thinking during the Renaissance time were Marsilo Ficino (1400's) and Paracelsus (1500's) Both emphasized the potential of Man to rise above fate, Paracelsus writing:

..."The Wise rule their planets; fools obey them"..
.
Yet both Ficino and Paracelsus also completely believed in Cosmic influences (via the stars and signs and planets) and the investigation of these influences by astrological delineation.

Ficino was the first to elaborate what we today would call "astro-psychology"-see his "Works"-or, for an excellent examination of this aspect of Ficino's astrology (his "planetary depth psychology"), see "Planets Within Us", by Thomas Moore easily available on amazon books, and from other sources (the allegation that "astro-psychology" arose in the 20th century, is quite incorrect; its origin is with Ficino in the late 1400's)

Paracelsus' astrological concepts are scattered throughout his books, but the epitome of his macrocosm/microcosm concept, and of the potential for Man to rise above the deterministic influences surrounding him, is his "Astronomie Magna" (there is also a good deal relating to astrological concepts in Paracelsus "Archidoxes of Magic" as well) Paracelsus believed that the Cosmic influences could be channeled and applied (by those who knew how) for a wide variety of purposes (especially in healing), this concept demonstrating Paracelsus view that Man-unlike other creatures-having the potential (through reason and knowledge) ultimately to "control" (or at least modify) astrological influences.

Neither Ficino nor Paracelsus provide us with specific astrological techniques as such, but rather they elaborate astrological concepts and a very attractive, non-determinist astrosophic philosophy and outlook regarding Man, Nature and the Cosmos.
Your citation of Dr. Farr's post jogs my memory. While I was doing my study of the Uranus/Neptune cycle (which resulted in a series of posts to the Festival mailing list in 1995) I encountered Gary Tomlinson's Music in Renaissance Magic: Toward a Historiography of Others. I was looking for turning points coincident with Uranus/Neptune conjunctions, and the developments cited by Tomlinson was one of them. From the blurb: "Under Ficino's influence, other philosophers gave special prominence to music, while music theorists sought to explain music's astrological and magical qualities. Tomlinson details new links forged between cosmology and musical technique around 1500, against the background of a burgeoning familiarity with ancient thought in late fifteenth-century Europe. He also offers an original interpretation of Ficino's astrological songs and characterizes the widespread diffusion of Ficino's musical epistemology in the century after his death; analyzes the presence of music in early modern mysticism; and, with examples from Monteverdi, isolates magical and nonmagical premises reflected in musical expression around 1600." The book also reveals much about the development of astrology per se at this time thanks to Ficino's efforts, albeit this wasn't Tomlinson's primary intent. (Turning points in astrology's development have coincided with several of these conjunctions, possibly all of them given sufficient historical knowledge.)

Thanks to Dr. Farr's comments quoted by you I just ordered Thomas Moore's book, for which the correct title is The Planets Within: The Astrological Psychology of Marsilio Ficino, and am looking forward to receiving it. I suspect it will clarify the purely astrological implications of Ficino's work, including its psychological dimension. However, I also encountered the following cautionary review, with which Moore subsequently agreed: "Marsilio Ficino was an astrologer and mystic - one of the precious few produced in the western sphere. It therefore seems somewhat strange that Thomas More seems so deeply uncomfortable with this singular fact and, at every turn, attempts some alchemy of his own in an attempt to cram all of Ficino's depth into the little box of analytical psychology (which remains an admirable field, nonetheless). Psychological insight can be of incalculable value in making mystical and esoteric treatises of the past more comprehensible to the modern reader but these are things which speak to man's heart and guts and soul... not just his psyche and I assert that by contorting Ficino into the proto-psychologist of the renaissance you end up disavowing the greater part of his genius - a tragedy. If you are uncomfortable with the reality of astrology, Mr Moore, I suggest you leave the astrologers in peace." — Courtney Field. What the review implies is that Moore overstated the psychological at the expense of the astrological dimensions of Ficino's writings. Moore himself subsequently acknowledged, "Courtney, You're right. I wrote this book in 1973. I've learned a lot since then, and I have wished I could retract some statements in my book that take away from astrology. Since then I have lectured and taught at astrological meetings and find that, even with my limited understanding at the time, my book offers some insights." It'll be interesting to read the book and sort some of this out.
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

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I really disagree with your stereotyping astrologers as equating single planets with specific concepts. Saturn=ambition is too simplistic by half. In a horoscope, quintiles are one indicator of ambition; placements of Mars, the sun, and the MC can be others. Are you familiar with Rex E. Bills, The Rulership Book; or the modern-trad debate re: whether modern planets are sufficiently distinguished from traditional ones? The moon and Neptune, for example, currently share significant areas of overlap.
I'm not saying astrologers equate Saturn only with ambition. They associate a number of concepts and words with it, but each word, including ambition, is treated as if it's relevant to Saturn no matter how it's used. This means Saturn (or any other planet) can be made to account for just about anything, which is why astrologers sometimes explain an event or characteristic only to discover that they were given incorrect information and got the right answer with the wrong chart. It's also why six different astrologers can offer six seemingly valid rectified birth times for the same person. It's why I advocate replacing symbolism with empiricism, and observing, and inferring from such observations, what regularly coincides with a given factor or kind of factor rather than playing word games with handed-down verbal associations. Not only does the latter enable astrologers to be "right" even with inaccurate birth data or event data, it also enables them to see a connection between any event they think astrology ought to be relevant to and any astrological factor they think ought to correspond to it. When I say astrological effects are intrinsically psychological, I don't mean every psychological state or category has astrological correlates, just some of them. In order to discover which ones we have to observe what regularly coincides with a given factor. If we simply take everything we know about psychology and assign each and every part of it to one or more factors, according to existing astro-logic, we get illusory knowledge. And this is how astrologers, with or without degrees in academic psychology, tend to do it. How, for instance, do you know quintiles are indicators of ambition? Or Mars, the Sun, or the MC? How were those associations determined?

I became aware of The Rulership Book when I met Diana Bills Stone, who had a hand in creating it, not long after it came out. But I think Rex's idea (according to Diana) that there should be an astrological correspondent for every word in the dictionary is simplistic to the extreme. Nor were these correspondences discovered by systematic observations of people's lives. According to Diana in the introduction: "In the sixties when Rex and I began our studies, there were no computers to calculate charts. . . . Whenever a rulership question came up, we were sent pawing through stacks of books and lists. To forestall duplication of effort, we began to record our findings in a three-ring notebook with alphabetical sections. . . . An astrological friend suggested that the burgeoning notebooks be compiled between book covers." Their findings, in other words, consisted of discovering, by consulting numerous books and articles in an intense two-year effort, a large number of words for which various astrologers have listed astrological correspondences. But no word about how such correspondences could have legitimately been discovered in the first place. The closest the introduction comes is this: "The appointments of the rulerships are not arbitrary, but a deep and logical system of knowledge flows through them and forms them into one great whole." I'm familiar with that kind of logic, having spent much time when I first got into astrology understanding and devising rulerships and much else via what I've since come to call "astrological reasoning." So by what means was it ascertained, by you or whomever's word you're taking, that quintiles are an indicator of ambition?
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Spock, I'm all for more research in astrology; though (as you may recall) quantitative approaches have tended to discredit astrology altogether. The social sciences have a lot of qualitative approaches currently in widespread use. I think some of them would be more productive.

But astrological planets, houses, sensitive points, signs, and aspects are not--or should not be-- anything/everything concepts any more than they should be limited to a needlessly narrow set of meanings.

Part of the problem with isolating out single chart variables for study is that horoscope reading is intrinsically inter-connected and holistic, with multiple modifying feedback loops between chart elements.

Modeling may work better than traditional empirical types of tests.

Because chart
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

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Spock, I'm all for more research in astrology; though (as you may recall) quantitative approaches have tended to discredit astrology altogether. The social sciences have a lot of qualitative approaches currently in widespread use. I think some of them would be more productive.

But astrological planets, houses, sensitive points, signs, and aspects are not--or should not be-- anything/everything concepts any more than they should be limited to a needlessly narrow set of meanings.

Part of the problem with isolating out single chart variables for study is that horoscope reading is intrinsically inter-connected and holistic, with multiple modifying feedback loops between chart elements.

Modeling may work better than traditional empirical types of tests.

Because chart
Three of the four approaches to research in my "After Symbolism" article are qualitative. I've previously argued, in a discussion on Skyscript in which you took part, that in any knowledge-producing enterprise qualitative research precedes quantitative, that the former is the foundation for the latter. I have also argued, there and I'm pretty sure here, that while astrological effects are indeed interconnected in practice, nonetheless they can be analytically separated to determine what each contributes to the whole. Conversely, if you insist that this is not possible you are in essence insisting (admitting?) that astrology itself is not possible unless you subscribe to something akin to divine revelation as a method of discovery. I'm mystified that you continue to believe in various astrological ideas with one hand while denying the means by which they could have been discovered with the other. If you believe what you appear to believe about the validity of signs, houses, rulerships, progressions, etc. (why?), where do you think these ideas came from? Did they fall from the sky?
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Unread 12-16-2014, 03:47 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

I think meteorites are the heavenly objects that fall from the sky.

The fact is, we know far too little about how astrology works-- if it does-- to even design a sensible study prior to developing the sorts of tests or models that might help to isolate its variables, in my opinion. Unfortunately-- as you know-- most empirical studies of astrology have not affirmed astrology's predictive or character delineation abilities.

We need to ask ourselves why this is so. Do we need bigger data sets, better controls, more sophisticated statistical methods? Or do we fundamentally need to rethink both astrology and how we study it?

If it's the latter, then we need to start at square- or step-one. This isn't even the hypothesis-formulation stage, but getting a much broader and deeper awareness of the process of astrology.

We have to acknowledge the enormous contribution of subjectivity to astrology. No two astrologers will interpret the same chart identically, and even standard astrology cookbooks can give radically different interpretations of the same variable, so the whole basis on which variables and their effects could be identified and defined first has to be explored.

Some astrologers are far more accurate than others, so we need to look at what the astrologer brings to the process of astrology, not imagine a kind of disembodied planet-subject effect. Several fields have been termed "both an art and a science," such as medical diagnoses and map-making; and we neglect the more intuitive "art" portion at our peril. Astrology doesn't exist without subjective human beings who read horoscopes.

In a horoscope, planets modify one another's actions. If we are looking at a synergistic system, then we can't just isolate variables for study, because they don't operate (or don't operate normally) outside of hundreds of interactions. (Astrology isn't the only field with this problem, incidentally, it is common to real-world complex systems.)

Quote:
I have also argued, there and I'm pretty sure here, that while astrological effects are indeed interconnected in practice, nonetheless they can be analytically separated to determine what each contributes to the whole.
Good luck with this. It seems like an article of faith to me. But I look forward to seeing your results.
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Unread 12-16-2014, 09:56 AM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

STATISTICS discussion http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewto...712&highlight=

QUOTE

'......If modern statistics can tell if a belief is valid,
which I believe it can,
it doesn't matter if it's applied to traditional astrologies, modern astrologies,
or anything in between.
So statistics can be applied to traditional astrologies
The question is, can it be applied fruitfully,
so as to increase the degree and accuracy of our understanding of astrological phenomena?...' Spock


'.....In the first place, if astrology is improved by research it will be research done by astrologers,
not by those whose only motive is to prove there's nothing to it.
As far as the latter are concerned astrological effects don't exist;
astrology is nothing but a superstition.
Our knowledge of astrological effects can only be advanced by those who believe they actually exist......' Spock
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Unread 12-17-2014, 06:52 PM
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Re: Origins of psychological astrology?

Spock-- one more thing, a complication in your statement,

Quote:
I have also argued... that while astrological effects are indeed interconnected in practice, nonetheless they can be analytically separated to determine what each contributes to the whole.
Astrology seems to work, if imperfectly, across a wide range of practices: Vedic vs. western modern vs. western traditional; horary, sidereal vs. tropical, Magi or Uranian vs. conventional, and so on. It's fine to analytically separate out signs or houses in a highly focused analysis; but then people's planetary signs are typically different in Vedic vs. western tropical astrology (by 24 to 27degrees, depending whom you ask.) Signs mean something different in medical astrology than they do in mundane astrology. Ceres is still treated like a relatively unimportant asteroid (despite its dwarf planet status) in modern psychological astrology; whereas in Magi astrology Ceres as seen as a serious malefic. Essential dignities are essential to traditional western astrology, whereas most modern astrologers don't use most of them. In horary astrology we aren't looking at birth charts, but at questions like, "Where is my missing cat?"

I think you could conduct a study as a kind of fishing expedition with no preconceptions, just to see what lands in the net , sort of like the Gauquelins did. But a research design that cannot accommodate all of astrology's complexities might not yield the simple results you seem to look for.
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