Will I live up to or past my 80's?

waybread said:

Thanks, tsmall for your usual informed and cogent reply.

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waybread said:

Thanks also for reinforcing a couple of my thoughts: that where highly respected, experienced professional astrologers, both past and present, disagree; amateurs should proceed with caution.

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Since the only one here who has actually responded to the OP I would hardly consider an amateur, and since that same member prefaced his remarks with what has lead to this sidebar, I agree, and yet think that you will find no matter how you caution your warning will either fall on deaf ears, or will find fertile ground to propound the idea that such charts cannot be read. Again while I agree with your opinion about amateurs, how many hoarary charts have you read?

waybread said:

The basis upon which one could even judge which an authority is correct and which one incorrect seems subjective.

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Right up until we start reading horary charts and seeing the answers in action. It's actually a bit easier than natal, especially to see if the answer is correct. Much less subjective at the end of the day. A funny thing about horary. Especially when we look deeper than yes or no answers (another fall back for those who don't actually have the skills to predict and prefer a yes/no question above a "why or why not" question) and then most often are able to get confirmation pdq on whether or not we were right or wrong.

waybread said:

I don't know who else has the Barclay and Hamaker-Zondag books, but for the record:

Barclay was one of the early proponents and resuscitators of Lilly. Among traditional sources she also sites Al Biruni, Bonatti, Coley, Culpepper (his namesake,) Firmicus Maternus, Gadbury, Cellectio Genitorarum, Hermes Trismegistos (!), Kepler, Manilius, Morin, Ptolemy, Wharton and an anonymous Persian source. Obviously not all of these sources addressed horary astrology, however.

Hamaker-Zondag cites Dariott, Gadbury, Lilly, Placidus, plus several Dutch and German sources of uncertain vintage as well as 20th century sources. Interestingly the two women are pretty consistent in this matter.

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Ok. After reading these two women, and learning their sources, do you have an answer for the OP? I don't, because I didn't know how to find the significators for the question, therefore I didn't know how to find the answer to the OP. For that, I learned something, again from the only astrologer who actually replied to the OP.

waybread said:

The point re: the OP is obvious.

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Obvious in what way? Most often, the reason given for a late ASC is that the querent already knows the answer to the question. An ASC in the latest (29*) degree can indicate that something about the situation is about to change. As a newbie myself to horary...I prefer to look again at what Culpepper said.

I do have to ask, what is your interest in this chart? And in the considerations about reading it, in light of the recent thread about predicting death, as well as your stance on that?

Of course, you could be interested in actually learning horary, and not just passing on minsunderstandings to make a point.

Historical Note:
Prior to the time of Bonatti (ie during the founding centuries of Western horary beginning c 800 AD, and earlier-500 AD-in India) among all of the (now available) horary sources, there never was a mention of early or late degrees of the ascendant OR of agreement of ascendant with planetary hour or element, as a qualification for a horary chart being valid or invalid.
Regarding Moon void of course as saying "nothing will come of the matter of the question", or as rendering a horary chart invalid, we find this given as a "rule" in horary only in the 12th century by Ibn Ezra-in the many centuries of horary development prior to that time, no such emphasis on Moon VOC relative to the validity of a horary chart, is to be found in the available literature...

Now, having stated the historical situation, in my own approach (following oldtime Ottoman horary) I do not take early or late ascendant (or hour/asc agreement) into account EXCEPT surprised if the ascending degree is under 1 or over 29: then, even for me, I consider the indications in the horary chart to be unreliable (due to the imminetly shifting Cosmic currents shown by the ascending degree) and so I decline to attempt to delineate such horaries: in the reference chart, with over 29 degrees ascending, I would not choose to attempt to delineate this chart, since I would consider the indications in this chart to be unreliable...

Regarding the nature of the question, I won't try to say it's out of the primary, effective field of horary, but I will say that such a question would (in my opinion) be much more reliably answered, by an advanced and expert longevity analysis of the natal chart...

dr. farr said:

Regarding the nature of the question, I won't try to say it's out of the primary, effective field of horary, but I will say that such a question would (in my opinion) be much more reliably answered, by an advanced and expert longevity analysis of the natal chart...

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Perhaps through the horary, we could get some insight on which year of solar return to look at? And also the querent is not young, it could indicate the end and change is coming or the possibility that OP as an astrologer already knew the answer? He said he saw in his natal chart already, he would live till old age. He obviously already analyzed prior casting this horary.

Hello all,
I am an amateur astrologer who has been using natal astrology for about 25 years now. I don't have any experience with horary astrology, so if someone would like to comment on my horary chart, it would be most welcome. Living to an old age shows up in my natal chart, so tonight I asked this question. All data is included with the attachment. Thanks in advance for any replies.

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dr. farr said:

Historical Note:
Prior to the time of Bonatti (ie during the founding centuries of Western horary beginning c 800 AD, and earlier-500 AD-in India) among all of the (now available) horary sources, there never was a mention of early or late degrees of the ascendant OR of agreement of ascendant with planetary hour or element, as a qualification for a horary chart being valid or invalid.
Regarding Moon void of course as saying "nothing will come of the matter of the question", or as rendering a horary chart invalid, we find this given as a "rule" in horary only in the 12th century by Ibn Ezra-in the many centuries of horary development prior to that time, no such emphasis on Moon VOC relative to the validity of a horary chart, is to be found in the available literature...

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One needs to define void of course Moon in order to address clearly the chart.

As to hour ruler agreement, and late degrees, well that would again fall to the practitioner, which is precisely what I and others on this idea have stated. We can cite sources all day long...just as we can pick and choose what we wish to use to render judgement. Because at the end of the day, astrology is an interpretive language. As a side note, I have reported all posts beyond Culpepper's response to the OP as being off topic. It's time that these conversations moved to the appropriate place and threads were not hijacked to discuss technique.

dr. farr, as yet another side note, one may not find the hour ruler idea in ancient literature, and at the same time one might not find Uranus in the ancient literature. Moon void of course will carry yet another delineation..along with a consideration of whether or not, according to the ancients, the Moon is actually void. I quite agree that it also in and of itself is not a determination that nothing will come of the matter...because in actuality, something will come of the matter. Eventually.

Of course, I know from experience here that it will come down to that I am new, and so therefore learning...read for I have exactly zero credibility in opinion.

poyi said:

Perhaps through the horary, we could get some insight on which year of solar return to look at? And also the querent is not young, it could indicate the end and change is coming or the possibility that OP as an astrologer already knew the answer? He said he saw in his natal chart already, he would live till old age. He obviously already analyzed prior casting this horary.

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Cans of worms.

Directions would be the traditional way to go. Yet there is (as always some issue surrounding concurance) Find the Anareta and look at it's directions. Cast an SR chart for the year the hyleg is directed to it...and yeah, btw, make sure you have both correctly, and then realize that you could be wrong, or that the directions could be wrong, and this becomes something that absolutely under no circumstances should you try this at home. "Watch this??" Not hardly. Which is why waybread is so against playing with it for amateurs, and which is why, though I believe that those experienced can do it, I don't encourage it as a free for all on a forum.

Right-just because something is oldtime or original doesn't make it right-or best; just because something is new, also doesn't make it right or better, or best. For me, relative to horary, I like the oldtime PRE-BONATTI concepts and methods, because I found the later horary rules and methods, simply too complex (convoluted in my opinion)-but that's just me.
Old, new, intermediate? There is value in all: test all things, hold fast the best-that's the Eclectic motto!

First of all....let me thank all of you for your responses.....this is truly overwhelming....
I am still deciphering all of the information posted...I thought I knew just a bit about astrology; I was wrong. Yes, I know myself, as I have been studying natal astrology in regards to myself for about 25 years....for reasons I will explain soon....
Let me explain why I asked this question....I am 50 years old. I retired from my previous career 5 years ago....a profession I pretty much loathed but tolerated since it provided a comfortable existence for my family. I have spent the last 4 years as a full time student pursuing what I hope to be a rewarding and fulfilling second career. I did not ask this question for selfish reasons. I wanted to know if my investment, a fairly expensive one at that since I am on the hook for around $40,000 in school loans would pay off. That is, will I be around long enough to take care of my family....
I am going to post my natal chart...not because I need it deciphered....but because it may help all of you understand more about my question....this will not be my last response to this thread by a long shot....thank you all so much....you have helped tremendously so far....

tsmall said:

Cans of worms.

Directions would be the traditional way to go. Yet there is (as always some issue surrounding concurance) Find the Anareta and look at it's directions. Cast an SR chart for the year the hyleg is directed to it...and yeah, btw, make sure you have both correctly, and then realize that you could be wrong, or that the directions could be wrong, and this becomes something that absolutely under no circumstances should you try this at home. "Watch this??" Not hardly. Which is why waybread is so against playing with it for amateurs, and which is why, though I believe that those experienced can do it, I don't encourage it as a free for all on a forum.

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Oh no I wasn't going to try this on myself. I was just wondering how the late ascendant might mean for this horary. For the querent it might be fine to ask such question. He may already reached to later stage in life? Not sure. If so, that is natural curiosity for him to wonder about this.

Talking about my own stuff here....Last year I saw many warning signs in solar return, lunar return, transits along with eclipse on my AC and MC ruler Scorpio Mercury in 3rd house, Uranus was at the antisicon point of my natal Mars in 1st house, Mars is the ruler of 8th, mutual reception to Mercury, Mars exalted by Moon in trine, Moon in Capricorn detriment and sextile Scorpio of her fall. Progression Uranus at exact conjunction to South node and IC many more indications.

It was motor vehicle accident approaching in my nearby neighborhood, by bike, at traffic light, between a high school and university street called College Street. Before it happened, I worried a bit. But it was nothing I could do about it. Intellectually I was aware of it but as a newbie in astrology, not confident that I made such prediction.

The Scooter hit me straight when I was crossing green pedestrian light. There was a Red Car driver as witness a female drive she was waiting for me to cross the road, and the careless Scooter drive was also female, it was the natal promises being triggered no doubt about it. Me and that scooter driver both woman literally "Fell" (Moon's dignity, sextile her Scorpio fall, exalted Mars, Mars mutual reception with Mercury) on the road (Mars/Mercury) and injured (Mars). It is because of the Eclipse triggered my natal configurations by conjunction my natal Mercury AC and MC ruler.

The timing I looked back everything was on the spots. It was after Solar eclipse 2 days post my Solar return, on my natal Mercury, transit Mercury retrograde, had surgery with my right arm, retrograde period for surgery, now also arranging second surgery to remove screws and plate. It is possible for sure to predict all of these. As I said I experienced in my own practical life, I knew from experiences it can be done. Rather to do it for other people or not, it is not for my skills to even concern about. But I have great interest on learning, as a student of astrology. I should stop hijacking the post now. Only to show that predictions can surely be done with Solar return.

By the way....for reasons I cannot fathom at this point in my development as an amateur astrologer....I believe the horary chart I cast is valid....call it a hunch....you all know much more than me, though....and I am listening....

tsmall, I made my point to fastlane69 several times.

I had to chuckle at your reaction, however, because my posts were merely "book reports" on two highly respected professionals with extensive horary practices. (Barclay was pivotal to reintroducing horary for our times.)

If I want a thread about my personal views, experience, &c re: horary astrology, I will have no trouble starting one.

fastlane69 said:

First of all....let me thank all of you for your responses.....this is truly overwhelming....
I am still deciphering all of the information posted...I thought I knew just a bit about astrology; I was wrong. Yes, I know myself, as I have been studying natal astrology in regards to myself for about 25 years....for reasons I will explain soon....
Let me explain why I asked this question....I am 50 years old. I retired from my previous career 5 years ago....a profession I pretty much loathed but tolerated since it provided a comfortable existence for my family. I have spent the last 4 years as a full time student pursuing what I hope to be a rewarding and fulfilling second career. I did not ask this question for selfish reasons. I wanted to know if my investment, a fairly expensive one at that since I am on the hook for around $40,000 in school loans would pay off. That is, will I be around long enough to take care of my family....
I am going to post my natal chart...not because I need it deciphered....but because it may help all of you understand more about my question....this will not be my last response to this thread by a long shot....thank you all so much....you have helped tremendously so far....

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fastlane, perhaps you saying that you would need to live past 80 to pay off your tuitition/school fees plus any new career start-up expenses? I am not clear (and I don't need to be) whether you've now got a student loan obligation, signicant savings, &c and what professionals in your new field can expect to earn after graduation.

Just thinking about your concerns from an actuarial standpoint and given the late degree of your horary chart ascendant, it is possible that your real question isn't your longevity per se, but whether your "investment will pay off" or most importantly, whether your family will be provided for, if you don't live so long. This looks to me like the chart is saying, "You've not asked your real question."

If we look at your foundational concerns, protecting one's survivors is one issue that can hopefully be addressed with a good life insurance policy and will. The other thing to think about (as you no doubt have) is some type of insurance to cover-off against the possibility that you become unable to work for health reasons. A large employer will probably provide decent sick leave and LTD, or there's workers' comp for just work-related illness/injury; but if you expect to be self-employed or to work for a small company, then there are other types of insurance to investigate (mortgage, job loss, &c.) Or calculate with your expected earnings what your state unemployment coverage would be in the event of a lay-off. If you have more money than I do, estate planning would be something else to explore.

And no, I am not in the insurance or financial services industry. Just someone who retired early and had to crunch a lot of numbers to see if we could manage it.

Good luck with your new career.

p.s. on whether a late degree indicates that a chart is not to be judged, you previously effectly answered your longevity question to your satisfaction using some techniques or other on your natal chart; though you could just as well have gotten the response from another sort of divination. So that one is completed. And your last post does indicate your "real" concern, not appearing in your OP.

waybread said:

fastlane, perhaps you saying that you would need to live past 80 to pay off your tuitition/school fees plus any new career start-up expenses? I am not clear (and I don't need to be) whether you've now got a student loan obligation, signicant savings, &c and what professionals in your new field can expect to earn after graduation.

Just thinking about your concerns from an actuarial standpoint and given the late degree of your horary chart ascendant, it is possible that your real question isn't your longevity per se, but whether your "investment will pay off" or most importantly, whether your family will be provided for, if you don't live so long. This looks to me like the chart is saying, "You've not asked your real question."

If we look at your foundational concerns, protecting one's survivors is one issue that can hopefully be addressed with a good life insurance policy and will. The other thing to think about (as you no doubt have) is some type of insurance to cover-off against the possibility that you become unable to work for health reasons. A large employer will probably provide decent sick leave and LTD, or there's workers' comp for just work-related illness/injury; but if you expect to be self-employed or to work for a small company, then there are other types of insurance to investigate (mortgage, job loss, &c.) Or calculate with your expected earnings what your state unemployment coverage would be in the event of a lay-off. If you have more money than I do, estate planning would be something else to explore.

And no, I am not in the insurance or financial services industry. Just someone who retired early and had to crunch a lot of numbers to see if we could manage it.

Good luck with your new career.

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waybread...thank you and all the others for replying....I really mean that.
I have a hard time explaining myself...always have....my words are often misinterpreted....I mean well, but it comes out wrong. It's not just about money....I have a legacy to be concerned with....my true question was, will I be around to take care of my family....not just the financial aspect of it all....they need me...and when I'm gone...well.....I will be missed, let's just put it that way....and thank you for the well wishes....

Last year I was diagnosed with Coronary Artery Disease.....I always thought of myself as invincible....until last year....my natal chart that I posted will explain my train of thought. Which leads to my question.....My father lived to an age of 87....my mother is still alive at 87 now....the genetics are not a question.....and yes, maybe I already did know the answer....I was looking for confirmation....I trust astrology completely...it has never let me down before....my question was not one of the neophyte....I understand the implications of such a question.....maybe I am not an adept in the practice of astrology....but I understand the truth of it all...I was merely asking for help....a hard thing for me to do, but I must....so....

I can take it....I'm ready for the answer....please help me understand....thank you....If one of you sees something....say it.

waybread said:

JA, thanks for sharing your opinion, but it is not part of these two handbooks. No doubt you are familiar with them.

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Yes, those two handbooks are not quite reflective of the entire tradition. The problem is that some modern horary astrologers have not reflected the tradition adequately, and taken the traditional considerations before delivering a judgement as being prohibitions or strictures against judgement, however this was not how they were used traditionally. The problem is almost certainly that Lilly can be something of a sloppy writer at the times and makes some confusing or occasionally misleading statements - by studying his actual charts we see what he means, but in isolation we would be forgiven for confusing his 'technical' statements.

Bonatti offers strong advice to not trust in the chart if certain conditions are true, and he offers these as considerations that the astrologer should make before delivering their judgement and Lilly in turn references these in his own words, but the idea that a chart CANNOT be read, is not found in the tradition itself. The turn of phrase from 'consideration before' to 'stricture against' rests in modern astrologers who were trying to restore the tradition, particularly Barbara Watters.

I copied this from an earlier response ....



Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread
The point re: the OP is obvious.

This was the response from another member to the above ..

Obvious in what way? Most often, the reason given for a late ASC is that the querent already knows the answer to the question. An ASC in the latest (29*) degree can indicate that something about the situation is about to change. As a newbie myself to horary...I prefer to look again at what Culpepper said.

I do have to ask, what is your interest in this chart? And in the considerations about reading it, in light of the recent thread about predicting death, as well as your stance on that?

Of course, you could be interested in actually learning horary, and not just passing on minsunderstandings to make a point. __________________


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To the OP ... I fear that you have stumbled into a hornet's nest. I suggest that you look at the thread

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64628

That might give you a better perspective of the environment that your question has landed into.

If you read that thread, you might see why your possibility of getting any help with your question is going to be hijacked for other purposes other than dealing with your question. Note, much of the inflexibility/intractability being seen today (and not just here with this question - think the US Congress with the healthcare issue) is due to the current configuration in space with the square of Uranus to Pluto and Saturn inc to Uranus.

I think we needed to focus on how to answer the question by sharing skills/idea and if we can't answer the question with our skills or morality standard then we should still sense that OP is struggling in his life. If it is so immoral to predict death using astrology of those found it unacceptable please don't add more stress on the OP with arguments over this.

Giving advices with compassion and Telling people what to do in life without compassion are different...This is truly very rude and not humane (while some claim to stay moral about such topic) so we should be aware not to go toward this direction. It is ok to say we don't know how to do it or just share some thoughts if they do have the knowledge but always providing positive comments with compassion. Only then the OP will share more and open up for our understanding.

At the moment, I think all of us neglecting OP's real needs. I will think further once I got home to use my PC. The OP said he knew the answer what he really needed is help and support so we shall focus on that. Because this is exactly what we wanted to be, caring and moral.