Marriage hesitation from partner

I don't know if astrology can help answer this but I'm curious if I'm reading this satisfactorily. I've been in a long term relationship for four years and want to get married, and my partner says he does but isn't ready for vague reasons (typical Pisces). I can't really ask about it anymore, it's just redundant. It's getting weird because we share resources and often strangers assume we're married.

Looking at our synastry, it seems like marriage would not be a problem:

His 7th house ruler is Moon. His Moon is in 8th house Virgo, oppose Sun/Venus/Mercury. My Venus is in Virgo and falls in his 8th house. My Jupiter, the ruler of my 7th house, is opposed his Moon and conjunct his Sun/Venus/Mercury.

So there are strong aspects between our 7th house rulers. On top of that, my Sun falls in his 7th house. His Jupiter is opposed my Sun, my Moon is conjunct his Mars and falls in his 1st.

The two aspects I'm curious about that might show a hangup is Uranus and Neptune... his Neptune exactly conjunct my DSC and my Uranus square his Sun/Merc/Venus and Moon opposition. My Uranus actually completes the "fourth leg" of his T-square with Saturn, where his Saturn falls in my 1st house and his 5th, and my Uranus falls in my 7th house and his 12th. Could this configuration be showing the hesitation? Or is there something else I'm missing?

I've attached the synastry chart, and I'll include a composite if anyone is interested (I am on the inside).

Thank you for any help... I've been trying to figure this out for a while!

rahu said:

post a midpoint composite
rahu

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Yes sir.

Neptune is chart ruler, conjunct MC in Sagittarius, with Jupiter the apex of a t-square involving Sun, Mercury, Moon and Uranus. I'm still not even sure what to make of that. So much going on. I'm not very good at reading composites.

Can you post his chart separately? I can't make it out off of the bi-wheel. If you get along well and have been living together, I don't think the problem is you personally. He may have issues with marriage as an institution.

However, the composite chart suggests that while you two have great communication, the relationship is subject to sudden mood swings. In the 8th house, I'm not sure if this is over sexuality or shared resources. Do you have friction about money or sex? The Mars-Pluto square suggests some control issues.

Your partner seems to be a fair bit older than you. Is this possibly an issue for him?

Quick reference:
(in the composite)

-Part of Marriage (ascendant+7th-venus) falls at 28 Gemini:
-angular in house of the home (4th house-whole sign format)
-lord of the ascendant (and also atmakaraka of the composite) Jupiter, flows toward the Part and is in trine to the Part
-generic love/marriage significator Venus flows toward conjunction with the Part
-only potential problem I can see (regarding the Part of Marriage) is;
+The Part's significator (lord of the sign the Part is in), Mercury is combust the Sun and-WHAT MIGHT ACCOUNT FOR THE HESITATION-is retrograde and flows away from the Part.
For me, this would not override the other strongly + testimonies in the composite regarding the Part of Marriage; however the Mercury situation vis-à-vis the Part of Marriage could well account for the hesitation being encountered.

waybread said:

However, the composite chart suggests that while you two have great communication, the relationship is subject to sudden mood swings. In the 8th house, I'm not sure if this is over sexuality or shared resources. Do you have friction about money or sex? The Mars-Pluto square suggests some control issues.

Your partner seems to be a fair bit older than you. Is this possibly an issue for him?

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LOL. Yes... I hadn't thought about that... perhaps I should look at the Moon/Uranus in Scorpio in this light. The major friction in our relationship is his house. It's like a third wheel. We both hate his house, it's rotting, poorly ventilated, dark, a hulking chore of thing, but he's very concerned with money. We want to buy another house together, but lack funds. What he really really wants is to have the means to put some grand plans into action. We're not bad off in the slightest, but that doesn't mean we have 100,000 dollars laying around to invest in a business like he wants. It really consumes him.

And sometimes I wonder if our relationship hurts him in that way... because he'd be fine living on the floor of an empty, uncomfortable and difficult house, eating once a day, working all the time to get things going slowly but surely, but he doesn't want that for me. He want to "take care" of me and make me happy, especially because he's older and holds a lot of traditional values for marriage... and even if I say I don't mind going without, he won't let it happen. And I don't really want to go without or see him go without, either. I try to keep us well-fed at least (Virgo Venus in 4th).

I wish I knew how to get through his barriers and insecurities about money and resources, and perhaps I was hoping to get some clues from reading our synastry. His Sun, Venus and Mercury Rx fall in the 2nd house and his Moon is in the 8th (chart attached). My Sun and Mercury is in the 3rd and Moon in the 9th. We have fundamentally different concerns that way.. but also complementary somehow... it's hard to explain. He encourages me to learn and progress through tangible, practical and hands-on approaches, and I encourage him to progress through study and networking and higher education. We both see the value in each other's approaches, and the need to feel like we're progressing is very strong and dominating for the relationship (not really sure where this is showing... perhaps Jupiter conjunct NN in composite?).

dr. farr said:

Quick reference:
(in the composite)

-Part of Marriage (ascendant+7th-venus) falls at 28 Gemini:
-angular in house of the home (4th house-whole sign format)
-lord of the ascendant (and also atmakaraka of the composite) Jupiter, flows toward the Part and is in trine to the Part
-generic love/marriage significator Venus flows toward conjunction with the Part
-only potential problem I can see (regarding the Part of Marriage) is;
+The Part's significator (lord of the sign the Part is in), Mercury is combust the Sun and-WHAT MIGHT ACCOUNT FOR THE HESITATION-is retrograde and flows away from the Part.
For me, this would not override the other strongly + testimonies in the composite regarding the Part of Marriage; however the Mercury situation vis-à-vis the Part of Marriage could well account for the hesitation being encountered.

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Thank you for calculating that and giving your input Dr. Farr! I'm going to look at Mercury a little closer (it seems a signficant part of the relationship considering it's Rx in both our charts and the composite). Rx often shows a slower, more internalized expression, and perhaps that's a characteristic of the relationship as a whole and would lead to delays in something like marriage?

Out of curiosity, is there some reason you can't sell the house, such as it is?

waybread said:

Out of curiosity, is there some reason you can't sell the house, such as it is?

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Uh oh, don't get sucked down the rabbit hole with us.

If he sold the property, the most likely outcome would be the next owner would tear the house down. That is a huge job because the house is huge (and mostly unavailable space as literally 2 A-frames smashed together at right angles, without being sealed or supported except for the work he's done on it). It was poorly constructed, but poorly constructed with flair. For one example, we took the casing off the front door and found out that in order to make room for the door frame, the siding was cut. But it was cut with a saw that wasn't adjusted to the right depth, so it was cut half way through the studs and header all around.

My boyfriend bought it at the height of the housing bubble, meaning he paid twice as much as it is worth, and selling it would be at a loss (this begs the question of why did he buy it, which of course a long and detailed answer I won't go into). It's over half paid off, too. It has a big shop and he wants to use the property (several acres) for experimental architecture and use the shop space for other projects. So keeping it is probably the best option, and believe me we discussed a lot of options. Over and over.

Taurus is on his 4th house cusp, with Venus in the 2nd in Pisces conjunct Mercury and Sun. He basically wants to use a house as a base of operations for an entirely new conception of geometry; he has an extraordinary philosophical foundation that if ever published could potentially revolutionize physics... but he cannot settle for abstractions, it must be tangible and relevant to the physical world. He hasn't actually moved forward with his theories because he wants to means to put it into practice as he has no credentials. He is held back by a lack of resources which he's been working hard to attain for a long time, and it never seems to work out, the timing is always slightly off (Rx mercury seems to play into that in my opinion).

I don't want to get in his way and try to be more helpful than not even though I'm not as smart as he is and don't have the skills he does... but Jupiter is also interesting in the encourages excess and indulgence as well as enthusiasm. My Jupiter conjunct Venus makes me wonder if I indulge him too much, and his Jupiter oppose my Sun makes me wonder if he indulges me too much, too.

I don't want marriage to be a distraction from what he needs to do in life. And he's almost said as much to me before in general terms of why he's never been married, but I can't tell if it's legitimate or a defense mechanism of some kind. I've told him I don't want children, and he seems sad about that. It's hard to know what he wants. He's a complex person.

Krewster said:

Do you really think his Sat is squaring any part of his oppo...? (I’d be surprised if you say his Moon is somber/dour).​

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Yes. I don't consider orbs larger than 8 - 9 degrees, but when it's a t-square, and an important planet (being his chart ruler) I definitely consider the squares valid (most strong for merc/moon opposition).

A friend who doesn't know anything about astrology told him he must be from Saturn. It's not surprising that he took that to heart and as a compliment.

But yes, your Uran does step up to T-square his oppo (which doesn’t seem to match all the freedom your post indicates you gift him but he may be feeling it another way). And his Sat 45’s your Sun (ignoring your goals).​

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Just on his chart, Ven is challenged despite its sextile to Mars (the oppo and the 7 min orbed 150 to Uran lend ?what flighty-ness and the bi-septile to Nept lends ?what a hesitancy or indirect approach to vulnerability).​

Those traits may spill over into financial areas as you know Ven.​

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Thanks for your input Krewster; always pointing to the aspects most of us overlook.

rahu said:

hi flapjacks

rather than focus on the nuances of the relationship, I noticed that the mars is square to pluto in the composite. this shows a deep selfishness. usually in the male. with the midpoint of mars/pluto conjunct to Neptune, his selfishness is concealed. this pattern shows that he sees the future in singular terms, nit in terms of a relationship. this square rarely results in a satisfying marriage as there is little real emotional truthfulness.

looking at his chart,with mars square to Uranus, he will never committed as this square shows a deep need for independence and emotional freedom.

the composite mars/pluto midpoint is square the nodal axis. this gives a very intense sexual/physical attraction. but it is of a dominating nature and this physical intimacy does not lead to emotional intimacy. this is a brutally sexual aspect initially, but often over time, this aspect becomes celibate. The sexual attraction turns to boredom and disinterest.

on the other hand the Venus/Chiron midpoint is square the nodal axis and opposed to the mars/Pluto midpoint. The chiron/venus aspects gives a "quirky" sexual/emotional relationship. this can show great sexual intensity , but in some way it is "edgy". this can show that you have unusual sexual interest. it can show issues of abuse in your past which make you respond in unusually ways to emotional intimacy.
you tend to interpret body language/signals in a different manner than the norm.

Jupiter is loosely conjunct the node in the composite . this does show a inclination toward marriage but it can also shows an inclination toward wealth. so it may be there are economic reasons for his presence in addition to emotional reas0ons,though after these many years ,I believe he has "cooled" off.
with the Saturn/Jupiter midpoint square the nodal axis, his resistance to marriage is shown as Saturn and Jupiter are antipodes.

the T-square of moon/Uranus opposed to mercury/sun and square to Jupiter is extremely unstable and indicates a marriage would not last.
it is quite amazing you have been together for 4 years. usually with this T-square, the relationship is off and on and not continuous during the allotted years .

I think he is too selfish and independent to ever get married, but will take advantage of what the relationship gives him, though he will not want to give anything back.

rahu

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First of all, thank you for taking the time for such an in-depth look at midpoints! I would not think to use midpoints in the analysis.

The "concealed selfishness" from the midpoint of Mars/Pluto conjunct (his?) Neptune seems interesting. I thought that square seemed odd because I don't understand how it's operating very well.

I'm not seeing how Mars/Pluto midpoint is square nodal axis. The midpoint looks like it's in the early degrees of Sag but the nodal axis is in early degrees of Pisces/Virgo. Where did you place the nodal axis? Am I looking at something different?

The relationship does have an unstable quality as far as physical closeness. We were long-distance for the first 3 years, have now lived together a year, and he may be moving somewhere else soon for another 2 years so we'll be apart again. These separations are generally unknown, too... it was possible he'd be going to another country for a few months, but that fell through. We are both self-conscious about not allowing one another to get in the way of our activities.

I'm removing all the details, but from what you've said I think I'm understanding that Mars/Pluto in composite better.

Krewster said:

​

Re whether your beau has a Sat-apexed T-square or not, I’d rather take your opinion than your mentioned non-astro-interested person’s take on whether he appears Saturnian. In your astro-opinion does his Moon have the type of somber/dour appearance/behavior that you’d personally label as Saturnian...? (different from the type of Saturnian behavior he may manifest from his 19 min tight Sun semi-septile Saturn aspect being more in behavior –such as preferring to work and even play alone, rather than personality apperance and mood).​

​

Uran in synastry seems just as important as any other heavy planet (when it aspects the partner’s personal planet(s)) with the added twist that the heavy planet person may have a hard time being aware of the dynamic much to the partner’s dismay. So though Uran is not prominent in your chart (except for the semi-novile family aspect to your Sun supporting your astro interest/talent), its midpoint/apexing his Moon oppo Merc will make his opposition feel more nervous than it already is (adjust to taste to reflect all the other contributory aspects). It is a simple test: just ask him.​

​

Similarly, I would expect your Sun to feel his Sat’s 45 aspect and that he may not be aware of it.​

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Thanks for the explanation!

It's hard for me to parse out because he is also Cap rising and Cap Mars in the 1st house. I do think the square shows clearly with Moon from what I've read about it and what I know about him.

That's a great way to think about outers in synastry (unconscious dynamics for the outer person). Hard to know what we're not aware of! I'm still chewing on that. Uranus seems so foreign to me personally...

the compoiste pluto/mars midpoint is at 4 sag 4 which is square to the node at 4 pisc31.

I thought you would at least do the math before you questioned it.
my mistake
rahu

rahu said:

the compoiste pluto/mars midpoint is at 4 sag 4 which is square to the node at 4 pisc31.

I thought you would at least do the math before you questioned it.
my mistake
rahu

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I questioned it because I wondered if I misunderstood you, and I was trying to clarify. I did misunderstand what you said because for some reason I was thinking of conjunction when you said square (Rx Mercury inconjunct Neptune, this sort of brain interruption happens to me frequently) and that is where the confusion was, not with the math. Sorry if I offended you.

This is all very simple really, I believe his natal alone is the issue here no need to look at composites and such. No matter the financial situation, he who wants to get married does so, and the one who does not will always find excuses.
First off I've found strong Mars in first house is a male who wants to remain a boyfriend and not switch to a husband role. No matter how much he craves intimacy of one-on-one relationship, he values his perceived 'freedom' above all, and avoids taking responsibility. Mars is a young man in his prime age, who does what he wants when he wants it. He is not restricted by any of the responsibilities, and since his Mars is much stronger than his Sun(husband role) he feels way more comfortable staying like that.
Second, his Moon is the big issue, while it is traditionally a significatior of wife in a male chart, it is also his 7th house ruler here, positioned in 8th house which is a house of deep-seated fears that are really hard to communicate in any form. Moon is also in opposition to Sun, and the two form a astrological marriage, male and female principles, that for him are difficult to balance. Might it be his parents were divorced? Anyway his early conditioning regarding relationships is damaged judging only by these positions.
Dispositor of the Moon - how things will eventually develop - is also damaged, Merc retro that is very weak by sign and debilitation being retrograde, also square to saturn.

Looking at the classic method, simply his Moon making appliying trine to Mars I would say he would get married, but with all the contra-indicators, I wouldn't bet on it, especially considering his age.
You need to think whether you would still stay with him under his terms(no marriage) because rarely we can change anyone but ourselves.

hermetic said:

This is all very simple really, I believe his natal alone is the issue here no need to look at composites and such. No matter the financial situation, he who wants to get married does so, and the one who does not will always find excuses.
First off I've found strong Mars in first house is a male who wants to remain a boyfriend and not switch to a husband role. No matter how much he craves intimacy of one-on-one relationship, he values his perceived 'freedom' above all, and avoids taking responsibility. Mars is a young man in his prime age, who does what he wants when he wants it. He is not restricted by any of the responsibilities, and since his Mars is much stronger than his Sun(husband role) he feels way more comfortable staying like that.
Second, his Moon is the big issue, while it is traditionally a significatior of wife in a male chart, it is also his 7th house ruler here, positioned in 8th house which is a house of deep-seated fears that are really hard to communicate in any form. Moon is also in opposition to Sun, and the two form a astrological marriage, male and female principles, that for him are difficult to balance. Might it be his parents were divorced? Anyway his early conditioning regarding relationships is damaged judging only by these positions.
Dispositor of the Moon - how things will eventually develop - is also damaged, Merc retro that is very weak by sign and debilitation being retrograde, also square to saturn.

Looking at the classic method, simply his Moon making appliying trine to Mars I would say he would get married, but with all the contra-indicators, I wouldn't bet on it, especially considering his age.
You need to think whether you would still stay with him under his terms(no marriage) because rarely we can change anyone but ourselves.

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Wow! Thank you for walking through how you looked at marriage indication in a chart. This is very instructive as well as wise advice.

I was researching classical methods for marriage indications and it's very difficult and confusing to get through to me, but this helps a lot for learning just to have someone explain an analysis like this. I'm going to remember a lot of this for future reference in reading charts so thank you again!

It's very helpful for you to put this so "simply" yet not simplistically, because I do think that his hesitation isn't quite so complicated but he's making it complicated because that's part of his personality. So this does help me approach the issue with a clearer head and not getting sucked into his world so much.

Yes, his parents divorced when he was a boy (not too young). I didn't even know they had divorced until I asked him directly. I tried to figure out how he felt about it but he avoided the question. I know he walls off certain emotional experiences, even from himself sometimes. It's hard for him to talk about his father because his father died prematurely. It's all sort of a black box to me, because I would like to know how he feels about things but I don't like to bring up painful memories that are so hard for him to talk about.

He says he wants to get married, but the conditions are supposed to be "just right" it seems. I do have think about how I am going to handle the possibility of never getting married if I stay with him because things are never going to be just right (that's life). I either have to convince him of that or not get married.

It seems petty to leave someone over whether or not they want a marriage contract, so I think I need to know why I want to get married myself very clearly and thoroughly. Most people seem to do it because that's just the social norm. Part of it may be a fear that I'll be seen as not a legitimate partner by friends, family, society. But I have to think about it further because ultimately it should be about us and not about what other people think.

Thank you hermetic!

You're welcome

Flapjacks said:

Yes, his parents divorced when he was a boy (not too young). I didn't even know they had divorced until I asked him directly. I tried to figure out how he felt about it but he avoided the question. I know he walls off certain emotional experiences, even from himself sometimes. It's hard for him to talk about his father because his father died prematurely. It's all sort of a black box to me, because I would like to know how he feels about things but I don't like to bring up painful memories that are so hard for him to talk about.

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This bolded part is Moon in eight house doing.

his hesitation isn't quite so complicated but he's making it complicated because that's part of his personality

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Not necessarily so.
As much as he makes up some trivial excuses or awaits for perfect conditions, it's probably just a rationalization of some irrational fear deep within him, things in life are rather simple if you look at it. whoever wanted to get married did so.
It's not petty to leave a relationship if it's not by your standards, for any reason. Many people nowadays have informal 'marriages' but agreed on such by both parties.

Never mind his own personal issues, this is not a very good composite, actually quite poor. He may be doing you a favor.

Sun and Venus make a very wide conjunction, otherwise no aspect.
Mars and Venus make a very close quincunx aspect, and Mars is in a very non-sexual sign. (sexual vibes do not match and unromantic connection)
Sun and Mercury opposing Moon (strained emotional/intellectual communication)
Moon conjunct Uranus, and in Scorpio. (irrational emotional volatility)
Pluto in tight square to Mars (control issues)
Saturn in wide square to Venus (worthiness issues)
Neptune opposing Venus (very idealized and other-worldly at first, but once the novelty wears off, all the other negative aspects overwhelm the relationship)

This is a very strong karmic past-life connection but not one of love or friendship, but one of obligation. You do not owe this person anything any longer and he obviously does not feel he owes you anything. I'd suggest moving on, in my opinion. And also, never ever ever EVER get married because of what your friends, family or society thinks or because you worry or fret about what people think of your relationship. Never. You do it because you both want to, and no other reason.

Just now looking at the composite and:

-not seeing a Ven 150 Mars (almost 3 degrees loose);

-Ven tri-decile Jup is nice (16 min);

-toughies within one degree include Sun semi-octile Nept, Moon semi-octile Ven.

Back on the synastry, not sure if mention was made of his Sat 150 your Mars (4 min orb).

Again, there's also good aspects in the charts.

2 deg + quincunx is better than no aspect at all between Venus-Mars. Yes, there are some good aspects, but can they outweigh the bad ones or the non-existent ones? I say no in the long term - certain aspects are necessary for a long term relationship, particularly a marriage. IMHO.

mdinaz said:

Never mind his own personal issues, this is not a very good composite, actually quite poor. He may be doing you a favor.

Sun and Venus make a very wide conjunction, otherwise no aspect.
Mars and Venus make a very close quincunx aspect, and Mars is in a very non-sexual sign. (sexual vibes do not match and unromantic connection)
Sun and Mercury opposing Moon (strained emotional/intellectual communication)
Moon conjunct Uranus, and in Scorpio. (irrational emotional volatility)
Pluto in tight square to Mars (control issues)
Saturn in wide square to Venus (worthiness issues)
Neptune opposing Venus (very idealized and other-worldly at first, but once the novelty wears off, all the other negative aspects overwhelm the relationship)

This is a very strong karmic past-life connection but not one of love or friendship, but one of obligation. You do not owe this person anything any longer and he obviously does not feel he owes you anything. I'd suggest moving on, in my opinion. And also, never ever ever EVER get married because of what your friends, family or society thinks or because you worry or fret about what people think of your relationship. Never. You do it because you both want to, and no other reason.

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Thanks for the input mdinaz!

Considering the natals, I don't think the composite is that fatalistic. It reflects the natals pretty strongly, which I (objectively ) find kind of fascinating. We both have Sun/Merc and Moon oppositions, Capricorn Mars and Venus square Saturn, for instance. So that's not unfamiliar energy. It also seems like he wouldn't get involved in a relationship that didn't have some kind of Neptunian quality, considering the heavy Pisces emphasis in his chart.

There is a great deal of love and passion in our relationship, and at least so far that has not diminished.

The quincunx figures pretty obviously to me (not the norm). 3rd house Venus in Gemini and 11th house Mars in Capricorn definitely both speak of how we behave together, and don't work together very well. For instance, talking a lot about a great variety of topics and ideas that is very intellectually stimulating and enjoying it almost as a guilty pleasure, but that never translating into any sort of productive work that can be shared with others outside the relationship (Mars in Cap) although there is some feeling that it should or there is some fundamental disconnect there that is frustrating.

The more I look over it and read the observations of others here, the more I see marriage as being indicated but there are some difficult barriers. I do think setting boundaries in this area will be a good idea as a start to see whether it will work to get on the same page.

Krewster, thanks for pointing out that Mars/Saturn quincunx. I haven't thought to much about how that might work so I'm looking into that next.