"hidden" enemies in our charts

Ben

Banned
The above link is to the chart of my son (Myk), who has agreed that it may be posted here.

As you will note, he is 16 and has Aries/Libra duplicated on the cusps of 8th+9th/2nd+3rd houses; Taurus/Scorpio intercepted in 9th/3rd houses - with a "generational" triangle of potential talent provided by pluto/uranus+neptune/saturn in the 3rd/5th/7th houses. [A combination that tends to make him an idealistic (but naive) "seeker of truth", with much to learn if he is to achieve the full potential of his intercepted moon+pluto in Scorpio/3rd - but does not nomally impact excessively on his relationships with others.]

However, what I find particularly interesting about his chart is the 8th harmonic aspects between Venus/Mercury/Mars - with Venus conjunct Sun, which also makes close 8th harmonic aspects with Neptune and Jupiter.

To me, this 8th harmonic seems to behave like a "hidden" enemy in his chart - at times intensifying his "truth-seeking" in a way that does adversely affect his relationships - and I believe that learning to understand and control those "minor" aspect influences might be the key to achieving his pluto potential.

Does anyone else on this forum think minor aspects (that are close by degree) are hidden enemies in our charts?

Ben
 

bittermoon

Well-known member
I am not familiar with harmonic charts, but in the chart you posted, hidden enemies are part of the realm of the 12th house, where his Sun resides.
 

Moog

Well-known member
For the benefit of those who are not familar with how harmonics work, is there a quick way of explaining how you see this 8th harmonic functioning in the chart? By looking at the chart and thinking in 8ths, I think we're talking something like a semi-semi square aspect? Half of half a square? And why do you think that might signify hidden enemies? Thanks.

How about open enemies? Saturn in the 7th... it would seem to me that what happened recently on the site was an overt Saturn action. And Saturn is inconjunct Mercury by signs... perhaps authority doesn't see what his Mercury is about and then there's room for misinterpretation...
 
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Ben

Banned
Thank you for responding, bittermoon and Moog.

Apologies for the misleading title, as I meant this thread to be about our own subconsciously motivated behaviour rather than the "hidden enemies" that exist outside ourselves (and depicted by the 12th house).

In that context, I wonder if a lack of awareness of how minor aspects can significantly influence our behaviour results in us being "our own worst enemy" - even if we have a sound understanding of the major aspects and significators in our charts.

(Note : I will clarify in my next post here - as a lengthy attempt to do so previously "disappeared into the ethers" when I hit the "submit reply" button.)

Ben
 

bittermoon

Well-known member
Ah, thanks for the clarification, Ben. I'd still look at the 12th house, as that's the house of 'undoing' but also at the Moon, as the Moon drives the subconscious mind.

Being one's own worst enemy can manifest in different ways, I think. I have Saturn opposite my Jupiter-Neptune conjunction. I have to make a conscious effort to not feel defeated or give up and have faith in myself. Sometimes when I lack that faith, I just 'throw it out' to the universe and I ask to bring me what I need.
 

miquar

Well-known member
Hi Ben. The twelth house is traditionally the house of self-undoing as well as hidden enemies.

But anyway, I think that anything in a chart is a potential enemy to the extent that it hasn't been made conscious. And of course when planets are linked by hard aspects it is more likely that one of the planets will be relegated to the unconscious to some extent.

I would tend to read the Mercury Venus Mars configuration as a midpoint configuration which is especially potent because aspects are involved as well. In other words, I would see it as Venus semisquare Mars, with Mercury=Venus/Mars. Though obviously right to say that there is an 8th harmonic thing going on here because in the 8th harmonic Mercury would show as being opposite a Venus Mars conjunction. You could call it a 16th harmonic syndrome, since the three planets' 16th harmonic waves are in phase.

And then there is the Sun Jupiter Neptune 8H syndrome too, with Mars square Neptune and Uranus and exactly square the Uranus/Neptune midpoint.

The chart suggests a bias towards the air and earth in the way your son adapts to life. It strikes me that different parts of the chart will seek truth on different levels and for different reasons. The Sun Venus rising in Virgo will seek practical understanding which enables him to maintain order both within and around him, and this will facilitate the strong need for creative endeavour shown in this part of the chart. The Libra part of him will seek a more intellectual understanding which helps him to maintain harmony in his dealings with others. The mutual reception between Mercury and Venus in this chart underlines the traits which these signs have in common - both Virgo and Libra value co-operation and are both inclined to give way to others rather than engage in conflict and discord.

In terms of your question, I think that perhaps the Sun Jupiter Neptune configuration can in some cases lead to a kind of identification with a spiritual vision of life. It may be difficult for your son to see the truths that he perceives as something separate from who he is. It is important I feel for him to develop a strong ego so that he can express such visions as an individual rather than be taken over by them.

Mercury aspecting Chiron and Uranus could reflect an intellectual loner, whose ideas somehow set him apart from others. This could add to the angular Pluto and Moon in Scorpio tendency to feel alienated. The sextiles from the Moon to the Ascendant, Sun and Venus could offer this intense and passionate Moon a channel for the Moon, which may add an emotional intensity to the way he expresses himself to others. Scorpio and Pluto of course reflect a profound need to seek truth and can feel it to be a matter of survival to uncover that which is hidden from them.

Saturn is weakly aspected in the 7th, suggesting that it may be projected onto others. It is sextile Neptune and in Pisces, so here again is the need to ground a vision according to his own integrity. Saturn is also opposite Chiron, and this could add to a sense of intellectual alienation - he could feel that he is up against the established values of the collective in his attempts to discover and express understanding.

One last thought - his IC, often associated with the experience of being fathered, is conjunct both Jupiter and Pluto, and is on the Jupiter/Pluto midpoint (if birth time is accurate enough). So it interested me that your post concerned the realisation of his Pluto potential (Jupiter being to do with openness to new possibilities of expression).

I wouldn't approach this in terms of controlling the minor aspects. My guess is that he just needs more time to consolidate a sense of self (as is often the case in young people with strong outer planets). The crucial thing is perhaps that he values himself, and his individual needs, as an individual so that he has a solid ego from which to operate. Without this strong ego, Sun Jupiter Neptune can develop into inflation, with any unhealed wounds (such as might be reflected by Mercury-Chiron, Moon-Scorpio & Pluto IC, Saturn, Mars-Neptune) expressing covertly and compulsively.
 

Ben

Banned
- hidden enemies are part of the realm of the 12th house, where his Sun resides.

If that indicates a personality which attracts "hidden enemies" bittermoon, both he and I agree he can be an absolute pain in the backside when riding on his high-horse (which he all-too-often does).


For the benefit of those who are not familar with how harmonics work, is there a quick way of explaining how you see this 8th harmonic functioning in the chart? By looking at the chart and thinking in 8ths, I think we're talking something like a semi-semi square aspect? Half of half a square?

The harmonic aspect is any multiples (in degrees) of the figure obtained by dividing the 360 degree zodiac circle by the harmonic number - For example, the 8th harmonic aspect degrees are 45:90:135:180, being multiples of 45 (ie. 360/8).

So - as you point out above, Moog - it is the 16th harmonic (multiples of 22.5 degrees) rather than the 8th that is the significant "minor aspect" in Myk's chart.


And why do you think that (the 16th harmonic) might that signify hidden enemies?
The 2nd harmonic (180 degree aspect) shows a personality flaw that we can see but with difficulty, through projecting it onto others.

The 4th harmonic (90 degree aspect) shows a personality flaw that we see as an asset, but others see as a problem.

The 8th harmonic (45 degree aspect) shows a personality flaw that we take pride in, but others flinch at our inability to see the problems it causes.

The 16th harmonic (22.5 degree aspect) shows a personality flaw that causes others to actively resist or oppose us.

So - in Myk's case - Mercury's 16th harmonic aspect to Venus+Mars, and their 8th harmonic aspect to each other, causes him to unconsciously behave in a way that makes others "bristle with indignation" and actively resist him.


How about open enemies? Saturn in the 7th... it would seem to me that what happened recently on the site was an overt Saturn action. And Saturn is inconjunct Mercury by signs... perhaps authority doesn't see what his Mercury is about and then there's room for misinterpretation...
Both of us can see and agree with your reasoning above, Moog - A misunderstanding that may have been compounded by the "modern" ruler of the 7th (Neptune) being in a 8th harmonic with expansive Jupiter and a Virgo/12th house Sun in close contact with Myk's Venus/MercuryMars issue.

Ben
 

miquar

Well-known member
Hi again. I think our posts crossed, so you might not have seen the one I put up earlier. I'm not familiar with those interpretations of the hard aspects - I'm not saying they're wrong though. I like the idea of the aspect becoming more internal as you increase the harmonic number. So the opposition is more likely to be experienced as opposition from the outside, and one leg of the square can still be projected, but the sense of internal frustration between two parts of oneself is more likely. The 8H aspects are less likely still to be felt as involving opposition from the external environment - ie they are more automatic in their expression. This could still account for the affect your son has on others.

But I think his affect on others is down to other things too. I would say that the angular Jupiter in Sagittarius square a rising Sun can be quite full on. Also, Mars makes hard aspects to the Ascendant and Uranus. Although Mars is in Libra, it may well still be assertive due to these hard aspects, and also because its ruler, Venus (also ruling Mercury), is conjunct the Sun and Square Jupiter - both fiery planets. Libra will fight against what is perceived as imbalance, and Virgo will protect its neat system of categories.

Angular Pluto and Moon in Scorpio can also be passionate enough to rub some people up the wrong way.
 

Ben

Banned
I think our posts crossed, so you might not have seen the one I put up earlier.
Yes, miquar. It appeared after I posted, having already lost an even longer earlier post to the ethers on hitting the "Submit Reply" button - So, I couldn't face replying to your post without taking a break.

I think your son's affect on others is down to other things too. I would say that the angular Jupiter in Sagittarius square a rising Sun can be quite full on.
Jupiter in Sagittarius/4th ensures he has the highest horse in our home, and that 12th house rising Sun in Virgo makes sure all the family know when he is riding it.:w00t:

Also, Mars makes hard aspects to the Ascendant and Uranus. Although Mars is in Libra, it may well still be assertive due to these hard aspects, and also because its ruler, Venus (also ruling Mercury), is conjunct the Sun and Square Jupiter - both fiery planets. Libra will fight against what is perceived as imbalance, and Virgo will protect its neat system of categories.
"Fight fairly" is written through him like a stick of Blackpool rock - but that Venus manifests as an attraction to intellectual females.

Angular Pluto and Moon in Scorpio can also be passionate enough to rub some people up the wrong way.
His intensity can sometimes be misinterpreted as anger - but he doesn't believe that.


Ben
 
firstly, I would be interested to know why you reduced the orb ratio down to 50%. the max I reduce to is 85% to bring more in line with mainstream views. There is a minor grand trine/talent triangle here, but was with all easy aspects, they can lack impetus/energy to resolve issues...

with only one planet above the horizon and a packed first quadrant, it does show an introvert, someone who is concerned with his own inner life. virgo asc can be quiet, unassuming almost shy

sun square jupiter shows a jovial expansive personality, then at other times sun square pluto albeit wide orb, not only shows problems with father but strong scorpio/plutonian traits....

Mars square uranus can show bad temper, clumisness and too quick to take action. Mars square neptune shows a mis use of actions, depleted energy.

Mars square Neptune
Mars‑Neptune Square Mars‑Neptune Opposition
Painful things either ignored ie self‑deception, or hypochondriac type, imaginary things (Neptune) Deceive or be deceived
http://www.astrologyindepth.com/Mars_square_Neptune
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13104&page=2
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11521
http://astrology.astrozoom.com/index.php?title=NEPTUNE_PARALLEL%2C_CONJUNCTION%2C_SQUARE_OR_OPPOSITION_TO_MARS

I saw you post in Help Forum regarding your sun being banned by NR.

Mercury is well aspected here, but in libra --- they can be argumentative, even though they want fairness and balance and seeing both sides to issues. If too bored then they 'can' become argumentative..

did anyone die age 4 1/2? SA Pluto conj IC? did you move house? SA Ic conj jupiter?

currently T saturn is conj natal mars causing stop/go situations, delays frustrations in actions

Sometimes these quincunxs are obvious and recognised in personality, other times it can take a lot of self examination to identify with the planets energies and of course they (like all aspects) don't operate 100% of the time, they are simply a facet of your personality. Some say they cause health issues that are unresolved, underlying, dormant waiting to be triggered.... some say you stay at one end, to the detriment of the other, OR end up see-sawing between the two until you learn balance, integration of two unlikely pairings.

Next look at the signs, then houses and then aspects. Now the *others aspects* from these Yods as they can act like escape routes, that can help or hinder the expressions. A chart with lots of Yods (Finger of God) will always be *searching* for the divine answers to the meaning of life, to find synthesis

mars quincunx Saturn– hard aspects
this suggest they will suffer in relationships and couldn't do anything about it and probably won't understand why either...

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=316323 &postcount=21
There is *something* about taking action (mars) that is at odds with saturn. But I think with the quincunx there is less *conscious awareness* of these two energies and how they act, that's why their lack of understand comes in. They act in a certain way and dont' understand why they 'get back' the reactions that they do, if that makes sense?

I think with the mainstream, hard aspects there IS more conscious awareness of the energies and how the act and 'have to' blend but with the quincunx it seems like it's harder to see/recognise and blend.

Mars Quincunx (Inconjunct) Saturn

“Your sense that only you can do something right is lodged in your imbalanced self picture. Too much work and too little spectrum of relating leaves you feeling slightly victimized by life. You create your own limits. Slowing down and quieting down helps you see this. You need a better sense of time, then you achieve better results with less effort. You can do this as soon as you are more balanced in your outlook and your judgment works in a less comparative mode.”
http://www.cafeastrology.com/natal/quincunxinterpretations.html

 
I have attached your son's parallels and chart in Equal for comparison.

jupiter,uranus and neptune are all parallel (which act like conjunctions) BUT also contra parallel (is like oppositions) MC

these three will act like a stellium with jupiter/expansion connection to spiritual,philosophical, religious neptune and uranus seeking excitement, unusual ways to experience these matters. so being contra MC is like being opp, so if opp mc it must be conj IC with the same reasoning....

jupiter/uranus are parallel - action without due thought....

mars is contra parallel to sun/venus

venus/mars are contra parallel
 

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Ben

Banned
Thank you all for your input here. Myk and I are currently "taking on board" your comments, but (regrettably) have now accepted that we must cease posting on the AW forums - at least for the time being.

Ben
 

Fragoso

Well-known member
Hello!

Hidden enemies sounds l12th house stuff. The ruler of your 12th house (sun) squares jupiter in sag. in 4th (witch is also the ruler of your 4th) - Be carefull with persons from your family.

Pluto opposes MC with can be envolved in fights for power and autorithy (and pluto it's conjunting the cusp of 4th house).

Besides, mars in 2nd squares neptune in 5th. I find all of those mars-neptune square very interestings cause you might attract not very well intiensionated people to your life and then you can consider them as 'hidden enemies'. There is a risk of deceivs and lies with that square... and neptune it's in 5th :pouty: witch affects romantic area.

In my case, i attract blood-suckers everytime and i have mars in 12th opposing neptune so i am used to this kind of threads xD.

Fragoso
 
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