Black Moon Lillith

Yennefer

Well-known member
It has been observed that Dark/Black Moon Lilith says much about the innocence of (lost) childhood, that is then taken over by the moon until such a time that one no longer cares what others think, feel, and do, and is guided from within to act and do that which comes 'naturally'.

This sounds very very familiar to me... I have Black Moon Lilith in Sagittarius conjunct my Ascendant so I see the world through "BML glasses" and indeed, with no effort, I have such an approach to anything/anyone that many just don´t understand it - ´cause I really do not care what others think and do - and that does not mean I don´t care for them, it´s just that their actions, advices etc have no effect on me, doesn´t matter if it is discussing career path or choosing a toothpaste.

I am very much attuned to myself (my Higher self?) and anything I do and think comes from this therefore others´ inputs can´t make any difference. Sometimes it causes problems in relationships with people who wants to influence me in any matter - even if I would willingly tried to be influenced, they simply can´t do so they feel confused and also angry. And sometimes they think I am very cold (I am NOT! I am supersensitive with BML-ASC-Neptune conjunction in Sagittarius!).

Not to speak about gender issues, men just DO have BIG problems with me as they cannot exert any kind of control in the relationship with me. They aren´t being controlled by me and it seems that they don´t know what to do with all this space and freedom thy are getting. They´re frightened:eek: :)

But this probably have something to do with my MC conjunct Saturn conjunct Pluto in Libra so they see me as the one wanting to have control over all.
But I have learned that I can only get control over my life if I stay in touch with the realms within and I find Black Moon Lilith´s energy very helpful in this respect. For me, felt personally, it is as a kind of inner wisdom, untouched by time, connected to something very deep in human soul.

In handling the daily routine, I actually find Saturn-Pluto-MC conjunction helpful for dealing with the world and its requirements - otherwise I think I might have get so much into these inner realms that I would be connected to the great endless wisdom but actually loose contact with the mundane world! So it keeps me going:)
 

jkley

Member
what is the difference between the mean and true dml aside from positon? i just found dark moon lilith (h13) (h21) on astrodiesnt and it looks as if the mean and true are either conjunct my juno in scorpio or about ten degrees away from that in scorpio...
 
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witch6

Active member
mine is in 7. h on 5th deg of leo.
it squares mercury,mc and pluto in scorp.
i have trouble realising this position.
does it represents more me or my partners?
help any1?
 

Frisiangal

Well-known member
witch6 said:
mine is in 7. h on 5th deg of leo.
it squares mercury,mc and pluto in scorp.
i have trouble realising this position.
does it represents more me or my partners?
help any1?

From study, the MEAN position of Black Moon Lilith has correlated to deep inner feelings within the individual themselves. In Leo this has corresponded with deep feelings regarding dominance.Do you feel dominated by your partners and, if so, why? What are you allowing by NOT doing anything to stand up for yourself.

On the other hand, you could be the stronger one and your partners could also feel that you dominate them through your Scorpionic side. You could easily create (very Leo) an image that isn't you at all and only a role you portray to get your own way and the attention you feel to be otherwise lacking. With Mercury there could be subjects/secrets regarding siblings you refuse to discuss and/or know nothing about about, and/or ( what goes on in) your private relationships. Mercury in harsh aspect to BML has correlated to step-siblings and feelings regarding the relationship with them.

With Pluto you could be always searching for 'the soulmate'; that which you seek in another because you feel it is not part of you. It is....Black Moon lilith in its most positive sense enables you to be aware of, as well as the right to be, who you are .... warts and all!

At its best Black Moon Lilith in 7th can draw people towards it. It possesses a quality that enables one to naturally identify with another. With the strong Scorpionic side as well, the ability to bewitch another and/or be seen as one possessing special powers will almost become a trade mark, if not in yourself, then through those to whom you are drawn.:)

To jkley:
I'm not sure if you are referring to the difference in meaning, or just the difference in position that is based upon astronomical calculations.
Can't help you with the former, as I have never studied the corrected position.

Frisiangal
 
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Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Black Moon Lilith does not exist as a physical body in space. Have astrologers become so bored with or given up on concepts they do not understand and decided to make up their own things that they prematurely understand because it is they who made it up? Hm...
 

Frisiangal

Well-known member
Kaiousei no Senshi said:
Black Moon Lilith does not exist as a physical body in space. Have astrologers become so bored with or given up on concepts they do not understand and decided to make up their own things that they prematurely understand because it is they who made it up? Hm...

Have you ever studied concepts that are 'new' to astrology? Do you place any reliance upon the effect of the newly discovered planets and/or the 'visiting' Centaurs that are correlating to circumstandces previously 'alien to mankind'? Have you ever studied and/or observed the effects of phenomena
with which you are not familiar, but which have correlated with a definite effect upon you that cannot be explained by the known planets? Do you never allow your mind to look further but prefer to stay in the box of what is known to you and rely upon that knowledge for every answer?
Sounds very Saturnal.:)

The study of the Black Moon and its variants ( and I do not mean the Lilith myth) has been going on for almost a century in Europe, and its tentacles have since reached further to other parts of the world. Yet, the astrologers, unbeknown of/to each other's observations, have come up with the same suggestive ideas of its meaning.
I find that to be more than mere coincidence.

My own almost 9 year study of the MEAN Black Moon followed a Total Solar Eclipse exact conjunct my 12th house Jupiter, at the same time as transiting MEAN Black Moon called Lilith crossed my I.C. to oppose my natal Uranus square Black Moon-Chiron-Ascendant. I had until then been studying the effect of the Centaurs. That very same week a fellow astrologer sent me a copy of the M. Kelley Hunter article regarding Lilith, of which I had never heard before, saying, 'this might be of interest you.' How very intuitive she must have been!! The article 'struck a chord within me' that no other physical planet had ever brought about because, as you so rightly say, Black moon Lilith is not physical. It correlates to a creative inner experience, an inner reality which may/may not find substance in form, and which, for me, formed the basis for my still continuing study.
By coincidence, the forthcoming total solar eclipse of the same series is within orb of my natal 11th house Pluto and squares my 9th house Mercury-Venus. I wonder if the ideas will ever get written on paper. ;) :)

I have great respect your astrological knowledge and if you decided to study how the mating ritual of Florida Alligators are associated with Neptune in Capricorn and the consequent appearance of U.F.O's , I would respect that too because you are no fool.
If only you could allow yourself to give other astrologers that same respect.

Friesiangal
 

Frisiangal

Well-known member
Jenna Jupiter said:
Moon Conjunction Lilith
Mercury Conjunction Lilith
Chiron Opposition Lilith

Aquarius and 5:th, someone?

What immediately would come to mind is the communication problem between mother and child that causes such pain 'inside'. The physical planets would tell that story.

Moon-Black Moon lilith is becoming a classic for a 'non-relationship' with the biological mother. There is no sense of bonding and belonging and it goes much deeper than a Moon-Uranus clash of natures, for example, where each sees life from a different perspective but can still get along. From observation Moon conjunct Black Moon lilith says much of the inner experiences of the child regarding the relationship and it is 'the images of motherhood' that are created at that time and live on, that can form the bad thoughts and feelings that act as 'demons' that taunt one's life.

Moon in Aquarius needs are to be emotionally free of dependency. Black Moon Lilith can feel enchained if that freedom is lacking. It's what it yearns for. The two together can obviously present difficulties in forming bonding and lasting relationships.
The cause? Look back to the child, whose ideas may still be ruling one's life.;)

Frisiangal
 

witch6

Active member
hahaha.this is all mostly true.
although ,im not sure about this trade marke thing-i did involve some magic in my love life(it was a hudge mistake:( ).
and ,yes-i wanna dominate in a relationship.
thank you for this replay:D
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
"Indeed bizarre. By the same token could not a male 'breathe in' the essence of feminine energy/consciousness simply by the presence a woman exudes?"
Frisiangal,
Thanks for brinigng this point up at all.

And then after going through Sven's response to the above..
"Indeed bizarre...?" No - he does not breathe it in; he lives inside it.
The feminine is larger than the male, sort of a coccon situation. You will recognise this from client work: when a man is left by a woman, he literally feels as if "the warming blanket" has removed. It is during this stage that he (from a deep, inner child perspective) promises to do whatever to have the blanket reinstated. However, once this has happened he flips back into male (superior) perspective and forgets all about his promise.
..I can't desist from exclaiming Bingo!!!
The choice of words "the warming blaket" fit the bill so beautifully here, and so does the rest of the post to what I have often heard, as well.

However, to me the Black Moon is still a bit of a mystery, and studying its manifestations in a chart are not as clear as crystal yet.
In fact, I know of 'astrologers', who leave the Black Moon completely out of their chart readings:confused:.

Cheers
:)aquarius7000
 
Frisiangal said:
Jenna Jupiter said:
What immediately would come to mind is the communication problem between mother and child that causes such pain 'inside'. The physical planets would tell that story.

Moon-Black Moon lilith is becoming a classic for a 'non-relationship' with the biological mother. There is no sense of bonding and belonging and it goes much deeper than a Moon-Uranus clash of natures, for example, where each sees life from a different perspective but can still get along. From observation Moon conjunct Black Moon lilith says much of the inner experiences of the child regarding the relationship and it is 'the images of motherhood' that are created at that time and live on, that can form the bad thoughts and feelings that act as 'demons' that taunt one's life.

Moon in Aquarius needs are to be emotionally free of dependency. Black Moon Lilith can feel enchained if that freedom is lacking. It's what it yearns for. The two together can obviously present difficulties in forming bonding and lasting relationships.
The cause? Look back to the child, whose ideas may still be ruling one's life.

Frisiangal

Thank you for your respond! Me and my mother fight, sometimes in public. All the time! People sometimes think we are sisters. ;) She once said she did'nt liked me and when i got uppset... She said; I just said it because i was angry. (I had said to her that i prefer my cat instead of her) 17-30 year old guys look at her/tell their friends "that girl is good looking" and she either act or look her age.
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Have you ever studied concepts that are 'new' to astrology? Do you place any reliance upon the effect of the newly discovered planets and/or the 'visiting' Centaurs that are correlating to circumstandces previously 'alien to mankind'? Have you ever studied and/or observed the effects of phenomena
with which you are not familiar, but which have correlated with a definite effect upon you that cannot be explained by the known planets? Do you never allow your mind to look further but prefer to stay in the box of what is known to you and rely upon that knowledge for every answer?
Sounds very Saturnal.

Excuse me? I've done extensive work with the Quartet who are not memebers of the traditional Seven planets. I am far from a modern astrologer in that I don't think everything is important, but what I do think is astrologically important I have based it in traditional philosophy instead of just using "intuition" because that's not what gets astrology going. I do not believe in the usage of the Centaurs because I see nothing special about them. There are asteriods all over the Solar System, they're called Trojans and there are different Trojans for different planets. Yet, I see no one claiming they are special.

However, BML is a particularly hated concept to me because she is NOT THERE. We're giving a blank spot in space power over us, so why not give all of those blank spots power? Oh, I know why, because that would totally disprove anything astrology has offered us thus far.

If only you could allow yourself to give other astrologers that same respect.

I do give other astrologers the same respect. Not once have I ever disrespected a fellow astrologer based on what they're personal astrological philosophy. Have I made points against them? You bet I have, but people have made points agaisnt mine as well, and I do not find this challenging of astrological philosophy to be "disrespectful". If you cannot bear to have your philosophy questioned or challenged and in fact find it "disrespectful" for someone to do so, I suggest not talking about it at all.

This thread is titled Black Moon Lilith and I offered my views on it and how I thought it was strange that modern astrologers are busy putting meanings on other things without understanding the basic foundational philosophies of astrology. I didn't mean that to be in any way personally attacking any member of this community, but you do have to admit that this kind of thing happens all the time. It's happened with Chiron, Lilith, and it's going to happen with Eris and Sedna too. Why? That's what I'd like to know.

Unfortunately, this has gone off topic far enough.
 

Frisiangal

Well-known member
Kaiousei no Senshi said:
I am far from a modern astrologer in that I don't think everything is important, but what I do think is astrologically important I have based it in traditional philosophy instead of just using "intuition" because that's not what gets astrology going.

I agree with you about the use of the word 'intuition' to describe how many astrologers believe they work. There's a lot to learn in astrology and, eventually, from years of study and application and, for my own part - observation, many astrologers can pick up on the meaning of aspects in a chart. They aren't being 'intuitive'; they are using the knowledge they have acquired, stored and filed away for future reference. If someone could look at a chart without any knowledge of astrology and decipher the meaning, THAT would be 'intuition'. :)
I'm much too down to Earth myself to be 'intuitive'. Everything learnt has come from simple practical observation.

However, BML is a particularly hated concept to me because she is NOT THERE.

EXACTLY !!
May I offer just two hypothetical...yet true for many....examples?
For whatever reason a woman undergoes a termination of pregnancy, as seen through a planetary configuration. There is not and never will be that child, yet the woman creates a life of the child in thought and feeling. It would have been x years old; it would now be at school, etec.etc.. It takes on a life of its own yet, just as you say, it is NOT THERE; it does not exist in reality but only through an active inner experience.
How would you explain this 'life' and inner experience in terms of the physical planets?

A man falls in love with a woman who doesn't even know he exists (no pun intended). He imagines all sorts of entanglements if he could only get to meet her, yet it never happens. Or, worse still, he does get to meet her and nothing physical occurs,.... or worse still, something does happen through which she treats him so badly that he inwardly feels, but isn't actually in physical terms, emasculated, that puts him off entering into any other relationship.
To which physical planets would you apply what is going on inside him?

We're giving a blank spot in space power over us, so why not give all of those blank spots power? Oh, I know why, because that would totally disprove anything astrology has offered us thus far.

I don't profess to have even 1% of the answers as to why some astrologers are tuned into various 'unaccepted' aspects of astrology and experience ideas/thoughts/feelings that others do not. Yet as another example, I find it extraordinary that my daughter 'had a thing' for a friend, a Sun in Pisces Royal Naval Officer, who happened to have a name that had been given to an asteroid. The 'thing' almost wrecked her marriage at the time that the asteroid transited her 11th house IN PISCES square her Mars in Sagittarius. I can't conceive how and why that particular asteroid should correlate to events at the time it did, but it does make me wonder if there is more to asteroid lore than we have available now.
Incidentally, nothing happened between them. How could it when transiting Black Moon Lilith was in her 8th house opposing her Saturn-Sun?:)

I do give other astrologers the same respect..... Have I made points against them? You bet I have, but people have made points agaisnt mine as well, and I do not find this challenging of astrological philosophy to be "disrespectful". If you cannot bear to have your philosophy questioned or challenged and in fact find it "disrespectful" for someone to do so, I suggest not talking about it at all.

It's not a question of 'cannot bear' to have my philosophy questioned; I'm used to that and do it myself often enough. It's the implication that astrologers who delve into unfamiliar aspects of the craft are making things up. Why would you think that? What would be the point and what would it serve? What good would it do? All I have personally learnt regarding the effect of Black Moon called Lilith has come from what many, many people have themselves told and/or confirmed for me. Unfortunately, I have natal Black Moon Lilith in Virgo, so I can't prove a darn thing.:D

Frisiangal
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
I agree with you about the use of the word 'intuition' to describe how many astrologers believe they work. There's a lot to learn in astrology and, eventually, from years of study and application and, for my own part - observation, many astrologers can pick up on the meaning of aspects in a chart. They aren't being 'intuitive'; they are using the knowledge they have acquired, stored and filed away for future reference. If someone could look at a chart without any knowledge of astrology and decipher the meaning, THAT would be 'intuition'. :)
I'm much too down to Earth myself to be 'intuitive'. Everything learnt has come from simple practical observation.

Right, and I'm the exact same way. It's not intuition if you know what it is, and calling it that is - in my mind - an insult to the time and effort you've put into learning different astrological rules. If you were going to intuitively arrive at a conclusion, then why did you spend $25 on that astrology book?

May I offer just two hypothetical...yet true for many....examples?
For whatever reason a woman undergoes a termination of pregnancy, as seen through a planetary configuration. There is not and never will be that child, yet the woman creates a life of the child in thought and feeling. It would have been x years old; it would now be at school, etec.etc.. It takes on a life of its own yet, just as you say, it is NOT THERE; it does not exist in reality but only through an active inner experience.
How would you explain this 'life' and inner experience in terms of the physical planets?

Okay, I'm really not sure what your point is... Certainly the woman has an imagination of what it could have been like, that's Mercury or Neptune at work there. Inventing a reality.

A man falls in love with a woman who doesn't even know he exists (no pun intended). He imagines all sorts of entanglements if he could only get to meet her, yet it never happens. Or, worse still, he does get to meet her and nothing physical occurs,.... or worse still, something does happen through which she treats him so badly that he inwardly feels, but isn't actually in physical terms, emasculated, that puts him off entering into any other relationship.
To which physical planets would you apply what is going on inside him?

Well, how do we feel anything in astrological terms? Mercury and Neptune for the imagining of the engagements, and Saturn and Luna for the feelings of self-pity and depression. Emotions and imagination aren't physical, but they are shown by physical planets.

I don't profess to have even 1% of the answers as to why some astrologers are tuned into various 'unaccepted' aspects of astrology and experience ideas/thoughts/feelings that others do not.

That's a story you could take straight to the bank!!

Yet as another example, I find it extraordinary that my daughter 'had a thing' for a friend, a Sun in Pisces Royal Naval Officer, who happened to have a name that had been given to an asteroid. The 'thing' almost wrecked her marriage at the time that the asteroid transited her 11th house IN PISCES square her Mars in Sagittarius. I can't conceive how and why that particular asteroid should correlate to events at the time it did, but it does make me wonder if there is more to asteroid lore than we have available now.
Incidentally, nothing happened between them. How could it when transiting Black Moon Lilith was in her 8th house opposing her Saturn-Sun? :)

I've heard similar stories to this but I've never experianced it personally, mostly because I've never really given it a try. Some of the asteroids are named after such common names that it's really rather strange. After all, we must all know about seven different people named "Chris" or "Nick" or "Mary", so how can one asteroid that shares the same name as these people reflect our relationships with them? Are we to understand that this one asteroid can reflect two ore more different relationships going on simultaneously. On the subject of "Nicks", in seventh grade one of my best friends was named Nick, while there was another Nick in my class who was no more than a regular classmate to me. Why the difference?

Also, I'm sure it's obvious that I think you're looking at the wrong culprit for the nothing happening.

It's not a question of 'cannot bear' to have my philosophy questioned; I'm used to that and do it myself often enough.

I didn't mean "you" as in you personally. I meant "you" in a general sense. Didn't mean for you to take that personally.

It's the implication that astrologers who delve into unfamiliar aspects of the craft are making things up. Why would you think that? What would be the point and what would it serve? What good would it do?

You tell me. Everyone wants to discover a planet nowadays. Everyone has their pet project. So why not spice it up by throwing some things in there? Also, it's not that I automatically think they're making it up, it's just that I often think they are mistaken. Like they say this body is responsible for this this and this because it's the most obvious reason, but perhaps there are other reasons why this event took place that - had we looked harder - we would have found were not this porported body's doings.

These astrologers base themselves off of nothing, and most of the time it's sickening...I'm sure you've seen astrological claims that have made you roll your eyes, I know they're out there.

Just because it's there doesn't mean it should be used, sometimes the existance itself is enough. When you assume that something different is significant, and give no rhyme or reason as to why that is, you're opening the proverbial Gates of Hades as millions of bodies come flooding through the Gate, wanting their astrological symbolism uncovered and discovered. There is a reason to everything in astrology, and that reason isn't "because I said so."
 

Finch

New member
Yeah - I've been reading (a little bit) about Lilith - the basic idea I got was that yes, it has to do with the dark part/dark side of yourself to some extent, but that it also has to do with the kind of feminist, independent-thinker, rebel part of a person and that a lot of the really disturbing descriptions of the Lilith myth and stuff were created by men trying to demonize...I don't know...female empowerment? Similar to what Flea was saying.
 

Night Sky

Well-known member
I would be curious to know with regard to the recent comments how and why BLM was brought into the astrological arena?

Firstly i dislike the description of lilith, the fact that there is no redeeming part to the story, i don´t know where the mythology came from either? Can anyone give me a source, is it real myth which is based on Noble Greek mythology or a medieval superstition designed to scare children? I suspect the latter.

Secondly. If lilith is a "calculated point" like the part of fortune or indeed any other ARABIC PART, then why give it any more attantion than those pretty much PERIPHERAL objects, which aren´t even objects?

Lilith is nothing.:59:
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
I would be curious to know with regard to the recent comments how and why BLM was brought into the astrological arena?

This is a brilliant question and I'd like to know that too. Apparently it's connected to Sepharial. Personally, knowing that is enough for me to roll my eyes.

Firstly i dislike the description of lilith, the fact that there is no redeeming part to the story, i don´t know where the mythology came from either? Can anyone give me a source, is it real myth which is based on Noble Greek mythology or a medieval superstition designed to scare children? I suspect the latter.

Not Greek. Hebrew mythology.

Secondly. If lilith is a "calculated point" like the part of fortune or indeed any other ARABIC PART, then why give it any more attantion than those pretty much PERIPHERAL objects, which aren´t even objects?

Actually, I don't think this is a good comparison. Certainly the Parts aren't real objects, but they are calcualated based on planetary influences and positions, so they're basically non-real objects that are based on the mixed influence of real objects. Unlike BML whose calculation is based off of some crazy Lunar orbit thing to where it's actually three times as far from the Earth as Luna is.
 

Night Sky

Well-known member
So it´s like a moon shoadow? this is very odd indeed.

The only thing i´d add is that in my experience it doesn´t seem to have any influence.

Or can anyone give me events which are connected to its transits?

I have scepticism, but am still open to being corrected...

Give me people with Lilith conjunt Sun within a degree and prove to me that it has a real influence...:rolleyes:
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Night Sky said:
So it´s like a moon shoadow? this is very odd indeed.
The only thing i´d add is that in my experience it doesn´t seem to have any influence.
Or can anyone give me events which are connected to its transits?
I have scepticism, but am still open to being corrected...
Give me people with Lilith conjunt Sun within a degree and prove to me that it has a real influence...:rolleyes:
Hello,

Here is a site you may like to 'sight' in regard to Lilith/Black Moon.

http://www.halexandria.org/dward382.htm

I have been into Astrology for a few years now, and am still struggling with a very open mind to understand this concept/point in our charts. I always think, that, if something has been brought into connection and applied in various (note: not all) astrological studies and interpretations, and, more importantly, has persisted for so long, then why shut your mind against it all together, at least until the 'hypothesis' has been completely disproved. It just keeps the quest for knowledge on, this way, imo.;)

:)aquarius7000
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
I always think, that, if something has been brought into connection and applied in various (note: not all) astrological studies and interpretations, and, more importantly, has persisted for so long, then why shut your mind against it all together, at least until the 'hypothesis' has been completely disproved.

What's popular isn't always right, and what's right isn't always popular. ;) Astrology is grand field to see just how right this cute little saying is.
 
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