fatal soulmates?

PlutorisingLee

Well-known member
My connection with this person was instant and very powerful. Emotionally its been like a rollercoaster and I can't help but want to surrender to it. I never felt like this about another person...It's like magic. Sparkles in the air and psychic dreams and what not...But also scary because it's so emotional.
But then I looked at the Composite chart and sure enough...Pluto on the Asc squaring Venus and Moon!
Being a Plutonian myself I'm VERY careful (and rightfully afraid?) of stepping deeper into a relationship that could be dangerous.
That being said, I'm also prone to be attracted to this type of connection.
I'm also aware of my own tendency to over-idealize people and not see them for who they are, having Neptune ruling the Descendant.

So far the relationship is healthy...Not abusive or anything. We seem to understand, respect, take care of each other but... the emotional obsession is there. Big time.

Is this connection one I should be cautious of or am I just afraid of love?
Anything positive I'm missing?
Is there a potential for a lasting relationship?
Soulmates or just crazy?
Any help interpreting what is really going on here is appreciated.

Why does it feel so important?

Thank you and blessings

Attaching Synastry and Composite- I'm on the outside (female).
 

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Osamenor

Staff member

So far the relationship is healthy...Not abusive or anything. We seem to understand, respect, take care of each other but... the emotional obsession is there. Big time.

This sounds like a huge step forward. Last time I remember you posting about your relationship issues, you had a complete disconnect between men you were attracted to and men you were friends with. The way you're describing this one, he sounds like both a lover and a friend. What's changed?

I've looked at both your composite and your synastry at great length. Spelling it all out would take forever, but it looks to me like this relationship has great potential for both of you to face your darkness--both individually and collectively, as a couple--and heal, creating something beautiful out of it. But whether that actually happens depends on how ready you both are. If you are not ready, it could become a complete nightmare.

All this Pluto involved (and it's not just you who is Plutonic; he has Pluto conjunct his Venus, making it his intimate friend in all relationship matters) is bound to bring each of you face to face, again and again, with people who show you your shadow side. As you yourself have seen in past relationships, that shadow side is very powerful and can be highly destructive. Do you know what his past relationships were like? I'd be surprised if they didn't include some similar power plays, abuse, or anything like that.

But shadow work can be done consciously. Neither of you can avoid having to dance with the shadow in a relationship--it's part of your life paths--but if you are consciously working with it, instead of unconsciously, you can claim its power for yourselves. You can transform it from nightmare to healer.

I find it perfectly fitting that your composite chart with this person includes a yod pointing to the seventh house, mimicking the yod in your natal chart, but with different planets and different signs (except Scorpio) involved. Not only that, the composite also has a second yod, in which the apex of the other yod--Jupiter--is a leg pointing to the Neptune/Saturn conjunction. A lot of meaning here, and I would take it as a sign that this relationship is key to healing your yod-related issues.
 
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PlutorisingLee

Well-known member
This sounds like a huge step forward. Last time I remember you posting about your relationship issues, you had a complete disconnect between men you were attracted to and men you were friends with. The way you're describing this one, he sounds like both a lover and a friend. What's changed?

Your right, it is pretty incredible how changing my perspective impacted the type of relationships I’m attracted to and who I attract. It was a long and very gradual process and I could go on into endless layers of it…I would say, a lot of it comes down to: Boundaries, self-love, values, and assertiveness. I credit the Venus trine Pluto transit in helping me along on this path as well as some terrible abuse that really forced me to face my own role in the pain I was going through. The problem wasn’t only the disconnection- but attracting really abusive and aggressive partners. Allowing myself to be firm in my boundaries and values- and being more assertive about it in relationships was a first step.
I also practiced difficult situations with other men- training myself (it’s a soul muscle) to act differently and react from a place of self-esteem. The price or sacrifice of that was being alone and losing people but gaining back my self-respect. And the hardest part has been seeing my own…Ugly aspects.
It’s still a process but I’m happy with the progress and willing to pay “the price” for the sake of a long-term change. What really helped me was allowing myself to be vulnerable and honest. I feel with Pluto there is always a fear of attachment and intimacy combined with a yearning for it.
So…I learned that real power lays in being “weak” and vulnerable and opening up to people. So being honest with my own Shadow and with others has helped. That being said…I am who I am and will always be prone to the same type of difficulties in relationships- and will keep desiring what others might deem as…. Not their cup of tea.
So you see…. I’m torn between surrendering and not wanting to have a huge set back with this new relationship. Being careful. I want someone who will help me continue to grow but not step on the same healing wounds over and over.
I've looked at both your composite and your synastry at great length. Spelling it all out would take forever, but it looks to me like this relationship has great potential for both of you to face your darkness--both individually and collectively, as a couple--and heal, creating something beautiful out of it. But whether that actually happens depends on how ready you both are. If you are not ready, it could become a complete nightmare.

I’m so glad and grateful you took your time to reply. I was sure no one will. I see what you are saying, the question is: Is this a relationship only focused on that healing and going into dark corners of our psyche or can it offer the other side of Scorpio- that is Taurus: A home, stability, warmth, and security. I’m asking because as part of my journey I admit those needs for me are very strong- yes that includes physical security. It is all great to swim in the waters of Pluto but eventually, a soul needs a place to rest. Long-term relationships can’t survive on ONLY constant psychological digging and turmoil. The funny thing is that so far- we both feel like what we want from each other is actually that “home, warmth, family, calm”. Almost as if…Being both Plutonian it creates a space free from it? If that makes any sense. It also feels more platonic/spiritual and very idealized.

All this Pluto involved (and it's not just you who is Plutonic; he has Pluto conjunct his Venus, making it his intimate friend in all relationship matters) is bound to bring each of you face to face, again and again, with people who show you your shadow side. As you yourself have seen in past relationships, that shadow side is very powerful and can be highly destructive. Do you know what his past relationships were like? I'd be surprised if they didn't include some similar power plays, abuse, or anything like that.

Oh wow yes he does have lots of Pluto! I thought he was more Neptunian/Jupiterian at first. I did notice he has Sun square Neptune which for me is always a fear that I’ll attract someone with addictions. I do think it’s cool he has a Moon in Taurus and Venus in Scorpio…Sounds like I’m his type. I don’t know about his past relationships. I do know he had some very painful experiences with people passing away early in his life- 8th house stuff. Actually, so far my concerns (If I’m not wrong) relate to a more Neptunian nature: I feel he is over-idealizing me and he says that he worries he won’t be good enough for me. That’s the reason we didn’t get together at first. So I do all I can to be as imperfect around him Lol. Or is that not a red flag? I get it, we both come with our pain and previous disappointments. I just don’t want him to be under any illusions so we can both be honest.

Speaking of Mars issues- if it’s such a part of the puzzle how come it has no aspects to it in the composite? I Keep reading that is really bad.

Pluto conjunct the first house and square Venus and Moon: Reading it indicated abuse and a narcissistic partner dynamic.
Being on the Ascendant does it mean other people are going to see us that way and try and abuse/struggle against the relationship?

You mentioned Saturn in the 2nd house conjunct Neptune: Lack of money? Unrealistic money? I suppose it can also be about values and roots on a psychological level? What am I missing?

And…the irony of us being not different and so similar is that we come from different backgrounds educationally- could that be a big problem or in “soul mate land” it doesn’t matter that much? :lol:

But shadow work can be done consciously. Neither of you can avoid having to dance with the shadow in a relationship--it's part of your life paths--but if you are consciously working with it, instead of unconsciously, you can claim its power for yourselves. You can transform it from nightmare to healer.
That is very true. I will forever have it as part of my path. But before meeting him I thought maybe to balance my nature I need someone very light, optimistic and not intense. What do you think? Or is it like avoiding my true need in relationships?
I find it perfectly fitting that your composite chart with this person includes a yod pointing to the seventh house, mimicking the yod in your natal chart, but with different planets and different signs (except Scorpio) involved. Not only that, the composite also has a second yod, in which the apex of the other yod--Jupiter--is a leg pointing to the Neptune/Saturn conjunction. A lot of meaning here, and I would take it as a sign that this relationship is key to healing your yod-related issues.

That’s really really remarkable!
Thank you for pointing it out. The cookbook bits online say YOD’s in composite charts indicate “a fated relationship”. No wonder I’m so magnetized! I do see the merit of relationships in helping us become whole and grow and its that’s the real aim of relationships…How could I say no to such a chance and ask about “security”? I also noticed we have Vertex in the 7th house, in Synastry the vertex are opposite each other. What could that mean?

Thank you
 

Osamenor

Staff member
Your right, it is pretty incredible how changing my perspective impacted the type of relationships I’m attracted to and who I attract. It was a long and very gradual process and I could go on into endless layers of it…I would say, a lot of it comes down to: Boundaries, self-love, values, and assertiveness. I credit the Venus trine Pluto transit in helping me along on this path as well as some terrible abuse that really forced me to face my own role in the pain I was going through. The problem wasn’t only the disconnection- but attracting really abusive and aggressive partners. Allowing myself to be firm in my boundaries and values- and being more assertive about it in relationships was a first step.

That right there is reclaiming your Mars!
I also practiced difficult situations with other men- training myself (it’s a soul muscle) to act differently and react from a place of self-esteem. The price or sacrifice of that was being alone and losing people but gaining back my self-respect. And the hardest part has been seeing my own…Ugly aspects.

It’s still a process but I’m happy with the progress and willing to pay “the price” for the sake of a long-term change. What really helped me was allowing myself to be vulnerable and honest. I feel with Pluto there is always a fear of attachment and intimacy combined with a yearning for it.

Again, a reclamation....
So…I learned that real power lays in being “weak” and vulnerable and opening up to people. So being honest with my own Shadow and with others has helped. That being said…I am who I am and will always be prone to the same type of difficulties in relationships- and will keep desiring what others might deem as…. Not their cup of tea.
Unless you have a relationship with someone who likes the same kind of tea.
So you see…. I’m torn between surrendering and not wanting to have a huge set back with this new relationship. Being careful. I want someone who will help me continue to grow but not step on the same healing wounds over and over.
It's not really an either/or choice. You can surrender but still be in control. Going where the winds and currents take you--in this case, in the relationship--doesn't have to mean, and shouldn't mean, giving up your autonomy.


the question is: Is this a relationship only focused on that healing and going into dark corners of our psyche or can it offer the other side of Scorpio- that is Taurus: A home, stability, warmth, and security. I’m asking because as part of my journey I admit those needs for me are very strong- yes that includes physical security. It is all great to swim in the waters of Pluto but eventually, a soul needs a place to rest. Long-term relationships can’t survive on ONLY constant psychological digging and turmoil. The funny thing is that so far- we both feel like what we want from each other is actually that “home, warmth, family, calm”. Almost as if…Being both Plutonian it creates a space free from it? If that makes any sense. It also feels more platonic/spiritual and very idealized.
Of course you also need safe and secure space, and need to have that with each other. That's the only way the Plutonian work can be done.

This is making me think of when, several years ago, I had hypnotherapy. The hypnotherapist refused to address any deep and painful issues with me the first session, saying it was better to start with making hypnosis a safe space. That first session, he just brought me into it and painted the picture that it was a safe, loving, and healing place, and focused on the positive. In later sessions, when I did confront the darkness, he always started with a drawn out bringing me into the healing space. In retrospect, I realize that was how he set me up to heal, instead of just go into the dark space and not come out.

That's also where I'm getting the picture of "surrender but still be in control." If you've ever been hypnotized, it's like that: you're surrendering and letting someone else tell you what to think, but you still have control. You can disagree and resist if you want to. Same in sexual acts. Same in relationships.

Astrologically, it makes perfect sense that you both need security from each other--moons conjunct each other's Venuses in synastry (wider orb between his moon and your Venus, but still arguably a conjunction); composite moon conjunct Venus; composite DC in security-oriented Taurus; composite sun in Cancer. He in particular needs security from a relationship: DC in security loving Cancer and moon on the IC. Since your seventh house rulers are in earth signs, it's apparently no less a need for you.

Oh wow yes he does have lots of Pluto! I thought he was more Neptunian/Jupiterian at first.
If his surface personality matches your DC's rulers, it makes sense that you're attracted to him. (And didn't you once say you don't like Pisces types? Sounds like famous last words!)

I did notice he has Sun square Neptune which for me is always a fear that I’ll attract someone with addictions.
Does he have addictions? Sun square Neptune doesn't guarantee it.

If he doesn't have addictions, or if he's had them but gone into recovery, that's proof that he's done some conscious work around that sun/Neptune square.

I do think it’s cool he has a Moon in Taurus and Venus in Scorpio…Sounds like I’m his type.
It's an interesting dynamic. On the one hand, you have those Moon/Venus conjunctions, his moon in your sun sign, your suns trine, his sun in your rising sign, and ascendants in the same element... all considered to be "good" synastry placements. But then you have an opposition between your moons. That could manifest as different kinds of needs for security and emotional safety--not insurmountable, but something you need to be conscious of and communicate about.


Actually, so far my concerns (If I’m not wrong) relate to a more Neptunian nature: I feel he is over-idealizing me and he says that he worries he won’t be good enough for me. That’s the reason we didn’t get together at first. So I do all I can to be as imperfect around him Lol. Or is that not a red flag? I get it, we both come with our pain and previous disappointments. I just don’t want him to be under any illusions so we can both be honest.
If you're showing him your imperfections and he's still there, it's fine. He might still idealize you in some ways, but that's a pretty normal thing to do when in love. If he can accept your imperfections and still idealize you... I would call that love. With a good dose of reality.

Speaking of Mars issues- if it’s such a part of the puzzle how come it has no aspects to it in the composite? I Keep reading that is really bad.
Composite Mars does have aspects: an out of sign but applying sextile to Uranus, and a quincunx with the sun. Depending on how wide you cast the orbs, Mars is also part of a yod: could be a leg of a yod pointing to the sun, with Uranus as the other leg. And it's right on the IC, which tells us that Mars is at the foundation of this relationship.

Pluto conjunct the first house and square Venus and Moon: Reading it indicated abuse and a narcissistic partner dynamic.
Being on the Ascendant does it mean other people are going to see us that way and try and abuse/struggle against the relationship?
After all this, do you really believe cookbook astrology? It's written for the lowest common denominator.

People who do not consciously work with the Pluto-shadow are going to have horrible dynamics if Pluto occupies such a key position in their synastry or composite. For those who are conscious with it, it's a blessing. I would take Pluto in the first composite house to mean that this relationship is focused on working with Pluto. Which we already know it is.

You mentioned Saturn in the 2nd house conjunct Neptune: Lack of money? Unrealistic money? I suppose it can also be about values and roots on a psychological level? What am I missing?
In a relationship chart, I would put more weight on the self esteem/personal values meanings of the second house, because that's such a key building block of any relationship. If it gets serious enough that you merge finances, that would be an eighth house matter, because shared money is.

Your composite second house placements do have an opposition from Chiron in the eighth. If there are any money issues in this relationship, that's where I'd expect it to show up. Does one of you make significantly more than the other, or come from a much wealthier background? If so, how does the other person feel about it, deep down? That's where sense of inadequacy (a second house thing) and insecurity would be likely to arise in relation to money.

And…the irony of us being not different and so similar is that we come from different backgrounds educationally- could that be a big problem or in “soul mate land” it doesn’t matter that much? :lol:
It's only a problem if you make it one, and making it one stems, like everything else, from not approaching it consciously. If you both just coast along on whatever unconscious assumptions you have about your respective educational backgrounds, it would become divisive. If that difference is something you both acknowledge, celebrate, and consciously work through any insecurities, assumptions, and so forth that arise, it's fine, and will enhance the relationship.

In that respect, it's just like an intercultural, interracial, or interfaith relationship: those kinds of relationships work if both parties are open, accepting, willing to work through any differences, and not sold on the idea that they can only be with someone who shares their background. In that case, the difference enhances the relationship. But if people are closed off about it, it doesn't work.

But before meeting him I thought maybe to balance my nature I need someone very light, optimistic and not intense. What do you think? Or is it like avoiding my true need in relationships?
Someone very light, optimistic, and not intense would enable you to avoid your real need. You need someone who can go into the shadow with you, and come out the other side with you, too. Judging from his chart, so does he.
 
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PlutorisingLee

Well-known member
Unless you have a relationship with someone who likes the same kind of tea.
True. Pluto can be also a fluffy puppy not a three headed dog. Archetypically speaking, there is a it of "beauty and the beast" dynamic going on. Or "taming of the beast". Can you see what I mean?
It's not really an either/or choice. You can surrender but still be in control. Going where the winds and currents take you--in this case, in the relationship--doesn't have to mean, and shouldn't mean, giving up your autonomy.
Ideally your right. Noting is all or nothing. But Knowing myself- just interacting with a person closely makes me have their dreams/physical symptoms/seeing the world through their eyes, at least for a time.
That's also where I'm getting the picture of "surrender but still be in control." If you've ever been hypnotized, it's like that: you're surrendering and letting someone else tell you what to think, but you still have control. You can disagree and resist if you want to. Same in sexual acts. Same in relationships.
Absolutely! I see what you mean. At the end of the day your core Self is there and you can surrender but only react to the situation when needed.
Astrologically, it makes perfect sense that you both need security from each other--moons conjunct each other's Venuses in synastry (wider orb between his moon and your Venus, but still arguably a conjunction); composite moon conjunct Venus; composite DC in security-oriented Taurus; composite sun in Cancer. He in particular needs security from a relationship: DC in security loving Cancer and moon on the IC. Since your seventh house rulers are in earth signs, it's apparently no less a need for you.
Thanks for breaking down what aspects speak to needing security.
Speaking of the angles: Natally, my idea of home is associated with Uranus and Neptune in the 4th house where for him it is associated with Moon. It sounds like for him having that Cancer DC, Moon on the IC, Moon in Taurus- a traditional homemaker wife would be good. Which is alright I suppose, but I guess my greatest inclination is towards research, studies and travel. I'm kind of free spirited and not sure about living up to that "at home" role. Mercury is where my passion is.
How does him having Mars in the first house modify this picture? Also noticed that he has Mars in the first while mine is in the 7th!
If his surface personality matches your DC's rulers, it makes sense that you're attracted to him. (And didn't you once say you don't like Pisces types? Sounds like famous last words!)
:innocent: Indeed.
Does he have addictions? Sun square Neptune doesn't guarantee it.
If he doesn't have addictions, or if he's had them but gone into recovery, that's proof that he's done some conscious work around that sun/Neptune square.
Can't say for sure that the answer is no. But he has done a lot of work spiritually and changing some bad habits and lifestyle. He in fact, is a very radical thinker and gets really angry at society (Uranus-Jupiter?). At first this scared me off- perhaps because I see this anger for what it mostly is (his pain) but over time something happened....he says I can tame and calm his anger. I didn't do in on purpose but I thats the dynamic. I take a deep breath and detach and react to his explosions and take him back down. And...I admit its nice: He appreciates this "power" and I enjoy having it. Still- I worry what if at some pint of situation I would succumb to my own dark corner and who would take me out of there? Or if we both go into our dark place at the same time? So far its been one sided...Facing the beast head on :devil:. Is that part of the "healing" in this relationship? I also noticed he has Chiron in the 5th house while my is in the 11th! Another mirroring aspect?
It's an interesting dynamic. On the one hand, you have those Moon/Venus conjunctions, his moon in your sun sign, your suns trine, his sun in your rising sign, and ascendants in the same element... all considered to be "good" synastry placements. But then you have an opposition between your moons. That could manifest as different kinds of needs for security and emotional safety--not insurmountable, but something you need to be conscious of and communicate about.
I'm trying to think about what needs each Moon has. I'm not sure. I match is Venus in Scorpio need but my emotional nature is probably bored by what the Taurus Moon needs?
If you're showing him your imperfections and he's still there, it's fine. He might still idealize you in some ways, but that's a pretty normal thing to do when in love. If he can accept your imperfections and still idealize you... I would call that love. With a good dose of reality.
Love this!
Composite Mars does have aspects: an out of sign but applying sextile to Uranus, and a quincunx with the sun. Depending on how wide you cast the orbs, Mars is also part of a yod: could be a leg of a yod pointing to the sun, with Uranus as the other leg. And it's right on the IC, which tells us that Mars is at the foundation of this relationship.
In the Synastry Neptune is square Mars so interesting how it shows in the composite. I find it hard to picture what "mars as foundation of a relationship" can be?
After all this, do you really believe cookbook astrology? It's written for the lowest common denominator.
I'm just grasping at whatever information I can find...*hangs head in shame*.
For those who are conscious with it, it's a blessing. I would take Pluto in the first composite house to mean that this relationship is focused on working with Pluto. Which we already know it is.
Agreed! It all points to Pluto.
In a relationship chart, I would put more weight on the self esteem/personal values meanings of the second house, because that's such a key building block of any relationship. If it gets serious enough that you merge finances, that would be an eighth house matter, because shared money is.
Does one of you make significantly more than the other, or come from a much wealthier background? If so, how does the other person feel about it, deep down? That's where sense of inadequacy (a second house thing) and insecurity would be likely to arise in relation to money.
I actually kind of asked him after reading this. He says "he looks up to me" (?) so he doesn't mind. I care about this because I know how hard it is for a relationship to survive if society/family don't approve. Also that Mercury again- being able to talk about my fascinations is important to me.
But if people are closed off about it, it doesn't work.
How does one keep it open? Saying the insecurity out loud rather then ignoring it?
Someone very light, optimistic, and not intense would enable you to avoid your real need. You need someone who can go into the shadow with you, and come out the other side with you, too. Judging from his chart, so does he.
And you know what?/....Its really amazing (whatever happens) to be able to just be yourself and for that to be what someone needs. Pluto+Pluto= sweet and light. Or maybe its just that Venus Moon conjunction.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
Ideally your right. Noting is all or nothing. But Knowing myself- just interacting with a person closely makes me have their dreams/physical symptoms/seeing the world through their eyes, at least for a time.
You've interacted closely with other people before. That has to be true if you know this about yourself, and if you've had other romantic relationships. So, surely you know what gives you boundaries?

Boundaries can be porous. Have you ever seen wild yarrow growing? It mixes itself with other plants, but stays itself. For that reason, yarrow is itself a medicine for people who need to maintain boundaries while still being in a relationship, romantic or otherwise.
Thanks for breaking down what aspects speak to needing security.
Speaking of the angles: Natally, my idea of home is associated with Uranus and Neptune in the 4th house where for him it is associated with Moon. It sounds like for him having that Cancer DC, Moon on the IC, Moon in Taurus- a traditional homemaker wife would be good.
Would he want to have one, or be one?

Seventh house ruler speaks as much to how we act in a relationship, as it does to what we want/need from a partner. For anyone, any gender, with moon on the IC, things of the IC are likely to be deeply important and something they're willing to maintain at just about any cost (particularly when stubborn, rooted, security-oriented Taurus is its sign!). This is the person who will want to build and maintain home. If they have a partner, they'll do it with or for their partner. If they don't have a partner, they'll do it for themselves.

If a woman had the same placements in her chart--moon on the IC and DC in Cancer--it would be interpreted as her needing to be a traditional housewife. Which might be true, unless some other part of her chart testifies to something very different, but the point I'm making is that no one would ever tell her she needs her partner to be a traditional housewife (or house husband).

Which is alright I suppose, but I guess my greatest inclination is towards research, studies and travel. I'm kind of free spirited and not sure about living up to that "at home" role. Mercury is where my passion is.
Based on his chart, it looks like he would enjoy playing the at home role, at least some of the time. That could be a source of mutual support. With all the moon/security/ninth house involved (you have your moon in his ninth house, your second; his is in your whole sign ninth; your composite chart also has moon in the ninth), the picture I'm getting is that you could be the couple who makes home wherever you are, with whatever you have. If he has more of a homemaker bent than you do, then he might be the one to initiate it.
How does him having Mars in the first house modify this picture? Also noticed that he has Mars in the first while mine is in the 7th!
Both of you have Mars in angular houses. That makes it an important part of you and your lives. And it's very, very common for people to choose partners whose first house has some echo of their own seventh. It might be that their rising sign is your descendant and vice versa; it might be that a placement you have in your seventh, they have in their first, or vice versa; their might be a shared rulership or affinity involved. Just typing this out makes me think of an example in my own life: I have my DC in Cancer, and my last partner had a first house Taurus moon.

I'm trying to think about what needs each Moon has. I'm not sure. I match is Venus in Scorpio need but my emotional nature is probably bored by what the Taurus Moon needs?
What makes you feel the most secure? What do you naturally seek out, if unconsciously? That's what your moon needs.

You're already living with both Taurus and Scorpio needs, since you're a Taurus sun and Scorpio moon. And, in an echo of Taurus, you have the moon in the second house. Part of your deep emotional needs must be security, building something... but in a mysterious, deeply intimate, Scorpio way. Taurus, in contrast, is more physical, more oriented to concrete reality.

How does one keep it open? Saying the insecurity out loud rather then ignoring it?

That, and not sweeping any differences in expectation that arise under the rug. Acknowledging that you don't necessarily live in the same world. That also applies to any relationship where there's an imbalance of privilege, whether it's because of class or race or anything else. Really, all heterosexual relationships ought to operate with that level of consciousness, because gender is one of the biggest ways people experience the world differently, get treated differently, have different levels of privilege.
 

PlutorisingLee

Well-known member
You've interacted closely with other people before. That has to be true if you know this about yourself, and if you've had other romantic relationships. So, surely you know what gives you boundaries?
I know what does... But on some level, I don't want any boundaries. Hence, being careful about who I'm merging with.
Would he want to have one, or be one?
I see your point :) and can relate to how that plays out for my Mars in action. I gues...He might want to act it out through his focus on home.
Both of you have Mars in angular houses. That makes it an important part of you and your lives. And it's very, very common for people to choose partners whose first house has some echo of their own seventh. It might be that their rising sign is your descendant and vice versa; it might be that a placement you have in your seventh, they have in their first, or vice versa; their might be a shared rulership or affinity involved. Just typing this out makes me think of an example in my own life: I have my DC in Cancer, and my last partner had a first house Taurus moon.
It's very interesting about people coming together with people who "complete" their natal puzzle. Seems again to be about growth, which is nice.
What makes you feel the most secure? What do you naturally seek out, if unconsciously? That's what your moon needs.
On some level, I see Venus about security in terms of feeling good self-esteem wise. My Moon in Scorpio might be what I'm most familiar with from childhood- not all positive. I guess, his Moon in Taurus needs things to be consistent and unchanging while my Moon requires this constant cycle of change. Both are about loyalty and attachment but show it differently. Different tastes?

I asked about having a balancing 2nd house/Venus in the compatibility charts because of the nature of Pluto/8th house. There seems to be this prevailing idea that passion and lust are not real love. Or that- Plutonian love is, in fact, an obsession. So I'm wondering what real love "Pluto style" can look like?

Pluot sure does create a fair share of yearning, passion, lust, attachment and intimacy. There is this idea that real love is allowing space for the other person- a sense of comfort and being able to be two independent individuals together VS unhealthy merging. Obviously, Pluto is interested in the merging of two souls.
Personally, I can say I'm somewhat conflicted about this logic. I do think it is easy to confuse obsession and passion with love- when it's not. But surely even a Plutonian relationship has a higher level of real love to it?
Maybe without losing ist Plutonian shape.

Btw I find your attitude towards Pluto so refreshing! : biggrin:
 

kshantaram

Premium Member
hope observations help reflect and adapt,
do share pointwise feedbacks how true-insightul-untrue etc :

moons scorpio-taurus opp lords mars-venus,
mere strong passionate attractions;
scorpio secretive, sentimental, suspicious, passionate, research-occult;
taurus energetic, creative, love of food-comforts, stubborn;

ascendants virgo-capricorn trine lords mer-sat unfriendly,
virgo intellectual-critical perfectionist attitude, cap ambitious-hardworking;

the composite has lords 1/7 mars-venus opp, attracted
but prone to conflict;
mars-rahu south node mystic acq 3rd
prone to excessive risk and accident prone; rise-fall;
sun lord 9th negating to 8th, negating luck;
cancer-moon inimical-malefic for scorpio asc,
sun-mer cancer 8th prone to chronic health issues opp sat 2nd impacting family-fin and health;
inimical moon over leo 9th, luck-fortune-travels under stress-delay;
venus lord 7th for marriage-relationship with inimical moon;
moon-venus-separative node ketu leo 9th not conducive for children?
sat cap 2nd and ketu 9th tending to distant lands;
scorpio asc a secretive-passionate-magnetic couple;


moon scorpio compatible with moons scorpio, pisces;
asc cap compatible with asc cap, acq,



wishing well, kshantaram
 

JOS

Well-known member
I know what does... But on some level, I don't want any boundaries. Hence, being careful about who I'm merging with.
I see your point :) and can relate to how that plays out for my Mars in action. I gues...He might want to act it out through his focus on home.

It's very interesting about people coming together with people who "complete" their natal puzzle. Seems again to be about growth, which is nice.
On some level, I see Venus about security in terms of feeling good self-esteem wise. My Moon in Scorpio might be what I'm most familiar with from childhood- not all positive. I guess, his Moon in Taurus needs things to be consistent and unchanging while my Moon requires this constant cycle of change. Both are about loyalty and attachment but show it differently. Different tastes?

I asked about having a balancing 2nd house/Venus in the compatibility charts because of the nature of Pluto/8th house. There seems to be this prevailing idea that passion and lust are not real love. Or that- Plutonian love is, in fact, an obsession. So I'm wondering what real love "Pluto style" can look like?

Pluot sure does create a fair share of yearning, passion, lust, attachment and intimacy. There is this idea that real love is allowing space for the other person- a sense of comfort and being able to be two independent individuals together VS unhealthy merging. Obviously, Pluto is interested in the merging of two souls.
Personally, I can say I'm somewhat conflicted about this logic. I do think it is easy to confuse obsession and passion with love- when it's not. But surely even a Plutonian relationship has a higher level of real love to it?
Maybe without losing ist Plutonian shape.

Btw I find your attitude towards Pluto so refreshing! : biggrin:

Plutonian is really though one. You face deep things and discover stuffs about yourself otherwise you couldn't be able. That makes the person unique you are with and both of you going through but from different perspective. You mirror each other your fears and things can get really nasty. Possessive, jealous, abusive etc bit in the same time beautiful deep and strong connection. Not for faint hearted
 

Osamenor

Staff member
I asked about having a balancing 2nd house/Venus in the compatibility charts because of the nature of Pluto/8th house. There seems to be this prevailing idea that passion and lust are not real love. Or that- Plutonian love is, in fact, an obsession. So I'm wondering what real love "Pluto style" can look like?
Have you heard of the four classical Greek words for love? Eros, philia, storge, and agape. (There are, apparently, more than four, according to various sources, but at least eros and agape always seem to be included in the lineup). Philia is platonic friendship, aka "brotherly" love; storge is parent/child love, agape is universal love, and eros is probably what you're seeing as Plutonian love: passionate, lustful, wanting to merge, and, well, erotic.

We live in a society that wants to be safe and shuns anything that smacks of danger, even if it's a necessary danger. "Real" love gets defined as the safe kinds. Now, a good romantic relationship isn't just erotic, it also includes some platonic friendship elements, but that's in addition to the erotic part, not instead of.

In short, eros is dangerous. That doesn't mean it's not real love.

You mirror each other your fears and things can get really nasty. Possessive, jealous, abusive etc bit in the same time beautiful deep and strong connection. Not for faint hearted
Here's a perfect example of assumptions about Pluto! It comes down to how consciously you mirror each other your fears. It doesn't have to get nasty. That it does get nasty in enough cases to make it assumed to be inevitable is a sign that not many people handle Pluto consciously.

What is true, and perhaps it didn't get mentioned in this thread so far, is that the people we draw to us, particularly in a romantic context, are as emotionally healthy as ourselves. If you're ready to handle Mars and Pluto consciously, you draw in someone who also is, and has as much of it as you do to handle. If that didn't happen in your previous relationships, it's because you weren't ready then.
 

JOS

Well-known member
Have you heard of the four classical Greek words for love? Eros, philia, storge, and agape. (There are, apparently, more than four, according to various sources, but at least eros and agape always seem to be included in the lineup). Philia is platonic friendship, aka "brotherly" love; storge is parent/child love, agape is universal love, and eros is probably what you're seeing as Plutonian love: passionate, lustful, wanting to merge, and, well, erotic.

We live in a society that wants to be safe and shuns anything that smacks of danger, even if it's a necessary danger. "Real" love gets defined as the safe kinds. Now, a good romantic relationship isn't just erotic, it also includes some platonic friendship elements, but that's in addition to the erotic part, not instead of.

In short, eros is dangerous. That doesn't mean it's not real love.


Here's a perfect example of assumptions about Pluto! It comes down to how consciously you mirror each other your fears. It doesn't have to get nasty. That it does get nasty in enough cases to make it assumed to be inevitable is a sign that not many people handle Pluto consciously.

What is true, and perhaps it didn't get mentioned in this thread so far, is that the people we draw to us, particularly in a romantic context, are as emotionally healthy as ourselves. If you're ready to handle Mars and Pluto consciously, you draw in someone who also is, and has as much of it as you do to handle. If that didn't happen in your previous relationships, it's because you weren't ready then.

One side note, if you didn't have such strong aspect it definitely didn't show up previously in your relationships.
In my current one we have strong pluto involvements and I just told my partner about it, and how does it relate to let each other so close and open up bring up insecurities what we then reflect on each other. In other words, one may not aware of the pluto influence in the relationship just find themselves controlling and such great intensity.
 

PlutorisingLee

Well-known member
Can we talk about Eros? For every word in the myth resonates so well.

Then Psyche (somewhat feeble in body and mind, yet given strength by cruelty of fate) received boldness and brought forth the lamp, and took the razor. So by her audacity she changed her kind, but when she took the lamp and came to the bedside, she saw the most meek and sweetest beast of all beasts, even fair Cupid couched fairly, at the sight of whom the very lamp increased his light for joy, and the razor turned his edge. But when Psyche saw so glorious a body, she greatly feared, and (amazed in mind, with a pale countenance, all trembling) fell on her knees, and thought to hide the razor, yea, verily, in her own heart, which she had undoubtedly done, had it not (through fear of so great an enterprise) fallen out of her hand...
Here we have a lamp: bringing what was in shadow too light.
The beast under the light becomes...A beautiful meek creature. It is asleep.Not powerful but passive. Yet...Why end so tragically?
Seems that the is a missing key to allow a better ending...Beyond dealing with the shadow?
or
Eros is a questionable fellow and will always remain so. … He belongs on one side to man’s primordial animal nature which will endure as long as man has an animal body. On the other side he is related to the highest forms of the spirit. But he thrives only when spirit and instinct are in right harmony. [“The Eros Theory,” CW 7, par. 32.]
Remember me talking about the beast as a theme in this relationship or sybmol that comes up?

Have you heard of the four classical Greek words for love? Eros, philia, storge, and agape. (There are, apparently, more than four, according to various sources, but at least eros and agape always seem to be included in the lineup). Philia is platonic friendship, aka "brotherly" love; storge is parent/child love, agape is universal love, and eros is probably what you're seeing as Plutonian love: passionate, lustful, wanting to merge, and, well, erotic.

We live in a society that wants to be safe and shuns anything that smacks of danger, even if it's a necessary danger. "Real" love gets defined as the safe kinds. Now, a good romantic relationship isn't just erotic, it also includes some platonic friendship elements, but that's in addition to the erotic part, not instead of.
That's a very interesting perspective on it. We can say our society lost eros...The way we live our lives.
In short, eros is dangerous. That doesn't mean it's not real love.
Depends on our definition of what "real love" is. The fuel for two people to connect might be the urge to merge completely with another- and erotic passion no doubt gives wings to an otherwise impossible task...How can TWO become ONE?
But I think ultimately, real love is about seeing the other as...other: Separate, unique and independent. So in that sense...
Maybe Pluto allows it in terms of seeing the shadow of another and still accepting them?
Here's a perfect example of assumptions about Pluto! It comes down to how consciously you mirror each other your fears. It doesn't have to get nasty. That it does get nasty in enough cases to make it assumed to be inevitable is a sign that not many people handle Pluto consciously.
I don't know- I mean, Pluto can't always be dealt with consciously or by two people at the same time- so its bound to resurface in some messy way. Maybe.
I know my own weak spots of when I can't handle it well...But how would I know his weak points in order to work with them? Do I just study his chart?
I must say so far the dynamic we have is really otherworldly, magical and deep. So I'm not complaining even as it hurts and boils my heart into a fire.
An unconscious Eros always expresses itself as will to power. [“Psychological Aspects of the Mother Archetype,” CW 9i, par. 167.]

So here indeed you are right-Pluto is eros love. The problem with Pluto is always powe= Eros that is undealt with.
What is true, and perhaps it didn't get mentioned in this thread so far, is that the people we draw to us, particularly in a romantic context, are as emotionally healthy as ourselves. If you're ready to handle Mars and Pluto consciously, you draw in someone who also is, and has as much of it as you do to handle. If that didn't happen in your previous relationships, it's because you weren't ready then.
That's a good point- thanks for reminding me. I always thought that Plutonian people attract other Plutonians regardless of the level of any person?
I also wanted to ask if you see any controlling tendencies in his chart?

Happy new year
 

JOS

Well-known member
Have you heard of the four classical Greek words for love? Eros, philia, storge, and agape. (There are, apparently, more than four, according to various sources, but at least eros and agape always seem to be included in the lineup). Philia is platonic friendship, aka "brotherly" love; storge is parent/child love, agape is universal love, and eros is probably what you're seeing as Plutonian love: passionate, lustful, wanting to merge, and, well, erotic.

We live in a society that wants to be safe and shuns anything that smacks of danger, even if it's a necessary danger. "Real" love gets defined as the safe kinds. Now, a good romantic relationship isn't just erotic, it also includes some platonic friendship elements, but that's in addition to the erotic part, not instead of.

In short, eros is dangerous. That doesn't mean it's not real love.


Here's a perfect example of assumptions about Pluto! It comes down to how consciously you mirror each other your fears. It doesn't have to get nasty. That it does get nasty in enough cases to make it assumed to be inevitable is a sign that not many people handle Pluto consciously.

What is true, and perhaps it didn't get mentioned in this thread so far, is that the people we draw to us, particularly in a romantic context, are as emotionally healthy as ourselves. If you're ready to handle Mars and Pluto consciously, you draw in someone who also is, and has as much of it as you do to handle. If that didn't happen in your previous relationships, it's because you weren't ready then.

Maybe... my previous relationship was very peaceful, although she has scorpio moon too. Actually the more I read about aspects and contacts I can see sone features depends on factors the simple basic chart never reveal. For instance my neptune, pluto, North node, chiron contacts in my chart and the trines influence emotional depth and sensitivity towards input in the surrounding. Having 6-7 pluto must be no coincidence. As for synastry, it's interesting how things gone rougher until I started learning about plutonic stuffs and see the opportunity not to stand in a fight just being responsive etc to those inputs. You realise these either way but would may take more time and risk you both breaking up before you got to breakthrough. That's why the bond and the commitment has to be stronger to go through the whole transformation
 

PlutorisingLee

Well-known member
Maybe... my previous relationship was very peaceful, although she has scorpio moon too. Actually the more I read about aspects and contacts I can see sone features depends on factors the simple basic chart never reveal. For instance my neptune, pluto, North node, chiron contacts in my chart and the trines influence emotional depth and sensitivity towards input in the surrounding. Having 6-7 pluto must be no coincidence. As for synastry, it's interesting how things gone rougher until I started learning about plutonic stuffs and see the opportunity not to stand in a fight just being responsive etc to those inputs. You realise these either way but would may take more time and risk you both breaking up before you got to breakthrough. That's why the bond and the commitment has to be stronger to go through the whole transformation
Yes, not reacting and being present as well as pretty much not reacting from the ego helps a lot! Are both your Synastry and Composite Plutonian?
I do think if both people are used to dealing with Pluto in their natal chart...It is very sweet to have someone understand and want that same level of depth.
I'm still trying to figure out that composite Moon conj. Venus square to Pluto. As it seems to relate tot he important point for the Ascendant...How other people see the relationship or the main expression of it.
 

JOS

Well-known member
Yes, not reacting and being present as well as pretty much not reacting from the ego helps a lot! Are both your Synastry and Composite Plutonian?
I do think if both people are used to dealing with Pluto in their natal chart...It is very sweet to have someone understand and want that same level of depth.
I'm still trying to figure out that composite Moon conj. Venus square to Pluto. As it seems to relate tot he important point for the Ascendant...How other people see the relationship or the main expression of it.

She have scorpio moon 8th house also pluto black moon lilith contact, I have about 6 pluto in my natal chart do I brought most of them in the synastry I guess. It's interesting though her that pluto is opposition my venus. That's it, not even mention the rest of the chart. North nodes, ascendants, chiron seems fated.

Check if you interested

https://imgur.com/kVzLPeA
 

Osamenor

Staff member
That's a very interesting perspective on it. We can say our society lost eros...The way we live our lives.
Aslan isn't a tame lion....
Depends on our definition of what "real love" is. The fuel for two people to connect might be the urge to merge completely with another- and erotic passion no doubt gives wings to an otherwise impossible task...How can TWO become ONE?
But I think ultimately, real love is about seeing the other as...other: Separate, unique and independent. So in that sense...
Maybe Pluto allows it in terms of seeing the shadow of another and still accepting them?
It's a paradox. Real love is both the urge to merge and being separate.

I don't know- I mean, Pluto can't always be dealt with consciously or by two people at the same time- so its bound to resurface in some messy way. Maybe.
Sure. Doesn't necessarily mean it will be an abusive relationship, though. Maybe there will be a desire to play with the dark side. Like horror movies play with fear, and S&M players play with power and pain along with sexuality. Those are just a couple of examples, of course. Doesn't mean you two have to be into horror movies or S&M. If you're not, there are lots of ways to make it play instead of genuine horror.

I know my own weak spots of when I can't handle it well...But how would I know his weak points in order to work with them? Do I just study his chart?
Better yet, get to know him, not the map to him.

That's a good point- thanks for reminding me. I always thought that Plutonian people attract other Plutonians regardless of the level of any person?
Of course Plutonians attract other Plutonians. But the Plutonians they attract are still at the same level of emotional health as themselves.
I also wanted to ask if you see any controlling tendencies in his chart?
Anyone can be controlling if they choose to be. The question is how they're controlling. Would they control in a blatant way, or would they be passive aggressive?

My best guess is that if someone with Mars on the ascendant in Capricorn is going to act controlling, it will be a blatant, heavy handed, maybe cold-angry kind of controlling. Probably not passive aggressive. That doesn't mean he is controlling, just that if he were, that's probably how he'd do it.

Happy new year

Happy new year! :w00t:
 

kshantaram

Premium Member
appreciate the ack, any feedbacks true-untrue-insightful,
traits-talents-health-events-prospects etc :


hope observations help reflect and adapt,

moons scorpio-taurus opp lords mars-venus,
mere strong passionate attractions;
scorpio secretive, sentimental, suspicious, passionate, research-occult;
taurus energetic, creative, love of food-comforts, stubborn;

ascendants virgo-capricorn trine lords mer-sat unfriendly,
virgo intellectual-critical perfectionist attitude, cap ambitious-hardworking;

the composite has lords 1/7 mars-venus opp, attracted
but prone to conflict;
mars-rahu south node mystic acq 3rd
prone to excessive risk and accident prone; rise-fall;
sun lord 9th negating to 8th, negating luck;
cancer-moon inimical-malefic for scorpio asc,
sun-mer cancer 8th prone to chronic health issues opp sat 2nd impacting family-fin and health;
inimical moon over leo 9th, luck-fortune-travels under stress-delay;
venus lord 7th for marriage-relationship with inimical moon;
moon-venus-separative node ketu leo 9th not conducive for children?
sat cap 2nd and ketu 9th tending to distant lands;
scorpio asc a secretive-passionate-magnetic couple;


moon scorpio compatible with moons scorpio, pisces;
asc cap compatible with asc cap, acq,



wishing well, kshantaram
 

JOS

Well-known member
Yes, not reacting and being present as well as pretty much not reacting from the ego helps a lot! Are both your Synastry and Composite Plutonian?
I do think if both people are used to dealing with Pluto in their natal chart...It is very sweet to have someone understand and want that same level of depth.
I'm still trying to figure out that composite Moon conj. Venus square to Pluto. As it seems to relate tot he important point for the Ascendant...How other people see the relationship or the main expression of it.

I ve checked and seems we have the following pluto contacts:

In my chart
Pluto opposition moon
Mercury opposition pluto
Saturn sextile pluto
Pluto square part of fortune
Neptune sextile Pluto
I have also chiron contacts
Chiron opposition north node
Venus conjunction chiron
Mars sextile chiron
North nodes:
Moon opposition
Venus opposition
Chiron opposition
Black moon lilith quincunx
Trine ascendant
Trine midheaven

Maybe another interesting aspects
Mars square lilith
Jupiter conjunct lilith
Moon Trine Neptune
Lilith square midheaven
Part of fortune trine vertex
Uranus trine part of fortune

In the synastry
She have her pluto opposition my venus and my ascendant trine her pluto, and pluto conjunct my north node
On the contrary
My pluto square her sun and Mercury, and conjunction to her jupiter and Saturn
We have also my moon trine her venus while my moon is opposition pluto do it's like a double whammy kind
Venus trine neptune
Neptune conjunction venus

She have sun trine chiron
Scorpio moon in 8th house
Mercury trine chiron
Sun quincunx North node
Neptune sextile Pluto
Pluto conjunction lilith
Chiron square North node
Chiron square part of fortune
Lilith ascendant and midheaven contacts
 
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