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  #1  
Unread 01-25-2014, 12:30 AM
coolmonty13 coolmonty13 is offline
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Difference between computer generated report and manual report?

Hello Everyone,

This is just out of curiosity. What is duration difference between a computer generated report and a manual report? I mean the error introduced by either method in their calculations. Does a computer generated report introduce a slight error? Or does a manual report? Moreover, approximately, in general how long is the difference in time duration error?

Thank you to the senior astrologers who would see this due their extensive experience. Thank you to everyone else too for sharing their insight.

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  #2  
Unread 01-25-2014, 12:41 AM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Difference between computer generated report and manual report?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolmonty13 View Post
Hello Everyone,

This is just out of curiosity. What is duration difference between a computer generated report and a manual report? I mean the error introduced by either method in their calculations. Does a computer generated report introduce a slight error? Or does a manual report? Moreover, approximately, in general how long is the difference in time duration error?

Thank you to the senior astrologers who would see this due their extensive experience. Thank you to everyone else too for sharing their insight.
Hello coolmonty13 - a good way to check this out is to verify for yourself, so here are the instructions

CALCULATING A NATAL CHART BY HAND
EXAMPLE FROM KEN WARD'S ASTROLOGY PAGES
http://www.trans4mind.com/personal_d...ns/calcGMT.htm

Astrology: Calculating the Chart - UT or GMT.

QUOTE

'….While few people are actually going to work out astrological charts by hand, that is, using paper, pencil,
it is important to know how to do it
because unless an astrologer spends a great deal of time doing charts by hand,
they will never fully understand astrology.
By doing charts by hand,
one begins to understand more about the movement of the planets
and how they combine to affect the lives of people on Earth.
Astrology is a sacred science
and by doing the mundane routine things,
our minds enter a meditative state
wherein we realise things we might not have been able to know or understand otherwise....'

The tools you require to make a horoscope
(in addition to writing and drawing tools)
are an atlas and an ephemeris
An ephemeris is a book or booklet containing information about the positions of planets, etc.



The information you require is the date and time and place of birth.

The place of birth is expressed in longitude and latitude.

Universal Time, or Greenwich Mean Time, is required to calculate the positions of the planets.




THE FOLLOWING LINKS ARE FOR THOSE WHO PREFER TO USE A TABLE OF HOUSES



CALCULATING A NATAL CHART BY HAND http://www.astrologicallyspeaking.co...ulatechart.pdf

QUOTE

'….For some time, our NCGR Chapters have asked for an available example of how to set a natal chart.
During the Spring 2010 Board meeting, it was voted that NCGR would place such an example on its website, utilizing as a resource, Joan Negus’ out-of-print workbook, Basic Astrology: a Practical
Guide. This particular work was chosen because it offers a time-proven resource for learning to accurately set a natal chart and is an excellent way to honor Joan since she and Ken Negus
were instrumental in helping to establish the NCGR education program. Ken Negus was contacted for permission to utilize Joan’s workbook, which he graciously gave.....'


INSTRUCTIONS
HOW TO SET A NATAL CHART
http://www.geocosmic.org/educ/assets/chartcalc.pdf


QUOTE

'….Two resources that one must have available to set a chart are:

1. Table of Houses
2. Ephemeris of the year of birth.


Many examples are found in tables of houses and some ephemerides.


Examples given herein yield acceptable results for exams. One may calculate by hand or by calculator, both methods are included.


NB

Hand and/or computer calculating
does not always yield exactly to the minute and second
the same results as from astrological software


In fact,
not all astrological software yields exactly to the minute-second the same results
as another astrological software
,
thus a small amount of error is accepted by exams.....'
__________________
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  #3  
Unread 01-25-2014, 12:50 AM
Zarathu Zarathu is offline
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Re: Difference between computer generated report and manual report?

A huge difference: Look at the chart in .25 seconds, or look at the chart in 2.5 hours.

Another difference: Never get to look at progressions since it takes way too long to calculate them.
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  #4  
Unread 01-25-2014, 01:35 AM
coolmonty13 coolmonty13 is offline
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Re: Difference between computer generated report and manual report?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Hello coolmonty13 - a good way to check this out is to verify for yourself, so here are the instructions

CALCULATING A NATAL CHART BY HAND
EXAMPLE FROM KEN WARD'S ASTROLOGY PAGES
http://www.trans4mind.com/personal_d...ns/calcGMT.htm

Astrology: Calculating the Chart - UT or GMT.

QUOTE

'….While few people are actually going to work out astrological charts by hand, that is, using paper, pencil,
it is important to know how to do it
because unless an astrologer spends a great deal of time doing charts by hand,
they will never fully understand astrology.
By doing charts by hand,
one begins to understand more about the movement of the planets
and how they combine to affect the lives of people on Earth.
Astrology is a sacred science
and by doing the mundane routine things,
our minds enter a meditative state
wherein we realise things we might not have been able to know or understand otherwise....'

The tools you require to make a horoscope
(in addition to writing and drawing tools)
are an atlas and an ephemeris
An ephemeris is a book or booklet containing information about the positions of planets, etc.



The information you require is the date and time and place of birth.

The place of birth is expressed in longitude and latitude.

Universal Time, or Greenwich Mean Time, is required to calculate the positions of the planets.




THE FOLLOWING LINKS ARE FOR THOSE WHO PREFER TO USE A TABLE OF HOUSES



CALCULATING A NATAL CHART BY HAND http://www.astrologicallyspeaking.co...ulatechart.pdf

QUOTE

'….For some time, our NCGR Chapters have asked for an available example of how to set a natal chart.
During the Spring 2010 Board meeting, it was voted that NCGR would place such an example on its website, utilizing as a resource, Joan Negus’ out-of-print workbook, Basic Astrology: a Practical
Guide. This particular work was chosen because it offers a time-proven resource for learning to accurately set a natal chart and is an excellent way to honor Joan since she and Ken Negus
were instrumental in helping to establish the NCGR education program. Ken Negus was contacted for permission to utilize Joan’s workbook, which he graciously gave.....'


INSTRUCTIONS
HOW TO SET A NATAL CHART
http://www.geocosmic.org/educ/assets/chartcalc.pdf


QUOTE

'….Two resources that one must have available to set a chart are:

1. Table of Houses
2. Ephemeris of the year of birth.


Many examples are found in tables of houses and some ephemerides.


Examples given herein yield acceptable results for exams. One may calculate by hand or by calculator, both methods are included.


NB

Hand and/or computer calculating
does not always yield exactly to the minute and second
the same results as from astrological software


In fact,
not all astrological software yields exactly to the minute-second the same results
as another astrological software
,
thus a small amount of error is accepted by exams.....'
Thank you Jupiterasc. I will have to "try" to do it by following your explanations. It seems so long. Yes, you are right when you are thinking 'No one said it was easy.'

I tried it and it took time to understand but I made some progress. Thank you once again

Last edited by coolmonty13; 01-30-2014 at 04:49 AM.
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  #5  
Unread 01-25-2014, 01:36 AM
coolmonty13 coolmonty13 is offline
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Re: Difference between computer generated report and manual report?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathu View Post
A huge difference: Look at the chart in .25 seconds, or look at the chart in 2.5 hours.

Another difference: Never get to look at progressions since it takes way too long to calculate them.
Thank you Zarathu.
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  #6  
Unread 01-29-2014, 05:15 AM
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Rajarshi Rajarshi is offline
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Re: Difference between computer generated report and manual report?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolmonty13 View Post
Hello Everyone,

This is just out of curiosity. What is duration difference between a computer generated report and a manual report? I mean the error introduced by either method in their calculations. Does a computer generated report introduce a slight error? Or does a manual report? Moreover, approximately, in general how long is the difference in time duration error?

Thank you to the senior astrologers who would see this due their extensive experience. Thank you to everyone else too for sharing their insight.
computer generated report is 99.99% accurate, provided you put the parameters correctly like Ayanamsa, time zone, etc etc. So, finally it depends on the expertise of astrologer to use the computer program to their advantage. It may be risky to depend on computer report generated by a novice in astrology.
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  #7  
Unread 01-29-2014, 09:06 AM
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suhasg suhasg is offline
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Re: Difference between computer generated report and manual report?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajarshi View Post
computer generated report is 99.99% accurate, provided you put the parameters correctly like Ayanamsa, time zone, etc etc. So, finally it depends on the expertise of astrologer to use the computer program to their advantage. It may be risky to depend on computer report generated by a novice in astrology.

Small correction here , Rajarshi,

Accuracy is always expressed in terms of error, means the less the number the higher the accuracy. 1% accurate is highly accurate,99 part correct 1 part wrong, while 99.99 % accurate means only 0.01 part correct rest every thing that is 99.99 is wrong!
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  #8  
Unread 01-29-2014, 03:47 PM
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Crystalpages Crystalpages is offline
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Re: Difference between computer generated report and manual report?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolmonty13 View Post
Hello Everyone,

This is just out of curiosity. What is duration difference between a computer generated report and a manual report? I mean the error introduced by either method in their calculations. Does a computer generated report introduce a slight error? Or does a manual report? Moreover, approximately, in general how long is the difference in time duration error?

Thank you to the senior astrologers who would see this due their extensive experience. Thank you to everyone else too for sharing their insight.
Just a few short notes for perusal by members here, if I may be permitted to add:

Any measurement (or calculations in present context) is aimed at deriving the TRUE value of something.

The closer to TRUE value, such measurement is determines its level of accuracy.

The more detailed the measured value is determines its level of precision.
If the sun's longitude is stated as 16 degrees 20 minutes and matches the actual value in degrees and minutes, the measured value will have an accuracy of 100% and 0% error.

At the same time a stated value of 16d 20m 5sec would be precise up to seconds. Same accuracy, greater precision. 16d 20m 5.3 sec would be even more precise.

These terms are not limited to numerical values but also qualitative observations and descriptions!

An orange is a round object is accurate.

An orange is a round fruit, orange in colour, having pitted skin, sour-sweet taste with a protrouding tiny node at its pole will be accurate and more precise.

The accuracy of computer generated values (for planets, for example) would be determined by how accurate the formulae/equations, algorithm and code is and the accuracy and precision of the computer.

If the code is defective or not right, the software will make the calculation error, consistently (systematic error). Such errors when caught can be fixed by correcting the calculation routine, algorithm, etc.

Calculation by hand (traditional way) would be subject to a similar accuracy in the equations etc used. However, due to human error, there is the possibility of making an error. This would not be a consistent error but a random error, which makes it more difficult to trace.

The default values chosen (parameters) such as ayanamsha, house division system, etc would further introduce a variation in the output.

Computer-generated reports (interpretations!) generally depends on the software identifying patterns and combinations and matches those with yogas, other astrological combinations, and using 'descriptive text strings' prepares a *report*, generally, one factor or one combination at a time and can result in a wordy but confusing prose!

One commercial software managed to try something more complex, pretty nicely, but for some reasons, it was pulled-out from subsequent sub-sub versions which generally indicates a minor change. In this case, I think the change was MAJOR!
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Last edited by Crystalpages; 01-29-2014 at 03:48 PM. Reason: duplication of info already in the signature
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  #9  
Unread 01-29-2014, 04:08 PM
Zarathu Zarathu is offline
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Re: Difference between computer generated report and manual report?

Computers can't do correlations unless the computer programmer is also a very very expert astrologer.

This means that the computer cannot determine what is important in your chart and what is not. So what you get is a catalogs list of aspects, houses, signs, etc with text book definitions for everything.

Computers can't answer specific questions.

Everything is a generic approach, one size fits all approach to an interpretation. In fact computers don't do interpretation. Computers don't know YOU.
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  #10  
Unread 01-29-2014, 11:01 PM
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Re: Difference between computer generated report and manual report?

By *computers*, we all mean software of course in the present thread context. It is true that if the software does not have the detailed delineation algorithm (code) that exists in the "computer" between the ears of a jyotishi/astrologer :-) which algorithm the artificial software does not possess because it was not programmed in by the programmers!

Software can do pattern identification at blinding speed. The potential capability is there. However, at this time, it can only identify one factor at a time and at rather superficial level.

Actual astrological delineation too consists of pattern identification (picking up signals and patterns) in a multifactorial manner. For instance when we see a raja-yoga, even the trikona-kendradhipati colocation, that is just the beginning and current software stops there. But, in a real setting, we then consider the varieties of strengths of the planets, their states, their aspects-associations, ashtakavarga situation, gunas, nakshatra and other dispositions, appropriate dasha arriving at appropriate age, and a host of similar factors before pronouncing the expected effects for the nativity, and all these will vary from chart to chart, though the starting point might be the same in all those charts,namely: colocation of for example lords of 9th and 10th in the same Kendra bhav!

Software cannot achieve that because of the complex programming or in some cases, lacunae in the awareness of the programmers who in most cases are not jyotishis.

But the potential is there...!
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Last edited by Crystalpages; 01-29-2014 at 11:11 PM. Reason: signature duplication (UGHH!) and a few typos etc
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  #11  
Unread 01-30-2014, 05:13 AM
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Re: Difference between computer generated report and manual report?

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Originally Posted by Crystalpages View Post
But the potential is there...!
In the past I worked extensively on software projects wherein I used Artificial Intelligence, Pattern recognition, Fuzzy Logic and Neural Networks. Combinations of these methodologies can bring ‘Human like’ thinking capabilities in machines (computers). We used these techniques for Power Grid Management, Traffic control, Process Control / Instrumentation and even in a Washing Machine (on a much smaller scale though).


Similar techniques are used in Computer that plays chess with humans. And one such incarnation had defeated world chess champions like Kasparov, Vishwanathan Anand etc. And those who wrote this software aren’t any chess champions.


So what it takes is large (I mean very large) amount of data, test cases / historical cases (to generate patterns and trends) and a complex mathematical model to start with.


It was possible with those examples (except chess) I mentioned because factors are limited in numbers, there are some fixed relations (rules) between cause and effect, number of possible outcomes were also limited.


In Astrology, we just scratched the surface , more than 70% is still unknown, unexplainable, gray area. Then there are thousands of factors (planets, signs, aspects, transits, progressions, Divisional charts to begin with) , outcome is also very subjective based on client’s situation that includes his/her current economic condition, ethnic community, country of residence, gender, and so on.


A dispute between husband and wife in India won’t necessarily lead to a divorce, but in some other part of the globe divorces are taken even for some sundry nuisance.


A ‘ Vehicle Yoga’ for a poor fellow in India could be a bicycle or a two wheeler, but the same Yog for a very rich person could mean a private jet.

In Astrology we can't frame rules those hit always , a particular planetary combination won't give consistent results , then there are thousands of sub rule , sub sub rules , things never end, Like an Onion skin, you peel one, there is one more behind it, take that one out, next one is already ready there.

Then bring in intuition , bad karma , free will .............

Last edited by suhasg; 01-30-2014 at 05:28 AM. Reason: typo
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  #12  
Unread 01-31-2014, 01:40 AM
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Re: Difference between computer generated report and manual report?

Suhas ji,

Very well put! Thanks for your posting to this thread.

Indeed, the ground-level quandry or problem is that how jyotishis approach the delineation of a horoscope is not clearly understood. Most seem to have their favourite style or approach, be it the choice of approaches/techniques/paddhatis etc. Most have generally been reluctant to share due to lack of time, or interest, or a variety of other reasons. Until, the programmers can learn these details, progress in computerized interpretation of the charts remains an impossible dream and ambition.

Then we have newer claims from some schools of thought about their 'sensational' and surefire 100% successful systems etc which create distractions, if not confusion!

Thirty years or so ago when I first got introduced to cyber-universe, a phenomenal product of revered or feared Kalki Awatar, I was those many years younger, and thought that through this new explosion of communication, a lot might get achieved in terms of more transparent communication between jyotish afficianados and together we would be able to make a difference.

Alas, back then (and earlier too!) *we* worked in silos and even today we all work in silos. When jyotishis come together, soon it becomes a mayhem of "one upmanship" and sometimes it becomes a lot worse. If I have seen that once, I have seen THAT again and again!

I am sorry if I sound a bit disappointed and venting!

Regards,

Rohiniranjan
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  #13  
Unread 02-05-2014, 03:22 PM
TMR TMR is offline
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Smile Re: Difference between computer generated report and manual report?

Astrological charts, Divisional charts and strength of planets and houses can only be calculated fast using computers as otherwise when we did not have computers, I used to take 80 man hours (10 days) to compute the strength of horoscopes while today with a good software it takes only .5 secs on an Intel i5 or even on a Core 2 duo. And you can present the Horoscope chart similar to a mark sheet which can easily be understood by the common man. I have posted many horoscopes on this forum using computerised evaluation of strengths of individual houses and the net strength. This means consistency in predictions. After all what we get after a 4 years B.Tech course, what do we get from a University, a piece of paper the Mark Sheet with marks scored in individual related subjects. Is it not?

The greatest advantage is that you can make meaningful evaluations of the horoscope with the strengths expressed in percentages. Yes there are many schools of thought in Astrology too like the Western System, Vedic Astrology etc. etc. And the selection is made very easy by clicking a Radio Button. Whichever system one uses, if there is consistency in usage Astrology is definitely a good tool to evaluate oneself and to do subjective comparisons between horoscopes of different individuals which is mostly used in checking compatibility of partners in any joint venture.

Last edited by TMR; 02-05-2014 at 03:28 PM.
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  #14  
Unread 02-05-2014, 03:29 PM
Zarathu Zarathu is offline
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Re: Difference between computer generated report and manual report?

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Originally Posted by TMR View Post
Astrological charts, Divisional charts and strength of planets and houses can only be calculated fast using computers as otherwise when we did not have computers, I used to take 80 man hours (10 days) to compute the strength of horoscopes while today with a good software it takes only .5 secs on an Intel i5 or even on a Core 2 duo. And you can present the Horoscope chart similar to a mark sheet which can easily be understood by the common man. I have posted many horoscopes on this forum using computerized evaluation of strengths of individual houses and the net strength. This means consistency in predictions. After all what we get after a 4 years B.Tech course, what do we get from a University, a piece of paper the Mark Sheet with marks scored in individual related subjects. Is it not?

The greatest advantage is that you can make meaningful evaluations of the horoscope with the strengths expressed in percentages.
Just the Astrodyne profile which I find totally essential to quality astrology was developed from 1920-1950 using a large questionnaire for each of 30,000 horoscopes. But the resulting calculations took about 12 hours of detailed arithmetic calculations. No one used the system until about 1988, when some enterprising programmer at the Church of Light put it into a program. Now its generated by at least three different commercial programs in lest than 1/2 a second. and that has nothing to do with the complex analysis that uses that as a base. part of the problem is that the most skilled programmers that might take an enormous relational database and put it into the highest level artificial intelligence computer programming are also not astrologers.
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Unread 02-05-2014, 03:55 PM
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Re: Difference between computer generated report and manual report?

For your information I am one of the first computer professionals starting from 1964 onwards using machine language in stored program concept computers like ICT 1300 Computer System and I have written many astrological softwares on Mainframes and Mini computers and today on PCs using GUI and High Level languages which I am using now. I have been researching Astrology for the last 50 years and today I can say that the evaluation of a horoscope encompasses all what is there known in Astrological Sciences and most softwares are perfect in this respect. Jhora is the best free software available which has all the options applicable to different schools of thought too. I use my own software written in Visual C# 2012.

But today the problem is most of the astrologers do not know the mathematics behind Astrology. They are mostly inconsistent in their predictions. And it has become a money making business fooling the public with remedies and associated sales of wares like Gems, Mantra and Yantra. Please read my articles on Navagraha Astrology
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Unread 02-05-2014, 05:13 PM
Zarathu Zarathu is offline
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Re: Difference between computer generated report and manual report?

Not being a Vedic Astrologer, it may be that the greater emphasis on FATE(as as understand it, and possibly improperly I will readily admit) as represented in the chart makes Vedic astrology more susceptible to a computer program.

Jagannatha Hora is a vedic astrology program, which I'm sure that everyone knows, since this discussion is a sub section of the Vedic Astrology Forum here.

I'm not sure that your expertise here translates well into Western Tropical astrology, and I know of no charting program in western astrology that is as detailed and as relationally comprehensive as what I do with my own work. The closest western that I know of are the computer analyses provided by John Haloran, written by him and by several fairly famous tropical astrologers. But even there, its a one size fits all approach, and the idiosyncrasies of each individual chart are not taken into consideration. No one looks for a detailed analysis to begin with regarding the power and friction levels of all the planets, houses, signs, and aspects, BEFORE making decisions about which of those is important enough to address in the reading.
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