Sexuality indicators in the chart?

poyi

Premium Member
This is off topic to the Western Astrology forum, but I would like to state a point of where I am coming from. I leave this point here for those interested on exploring further in your own practice or research. Sexuality in Chinese Practice, when you apply interactions of Five elements from the other 3 Pillars with the Day pillar, it will give more definite indicators. To show clear favoritism or non-favoritism toward opposite/same gender based on the very basic principle of if the element of the Day Pillar Craved for that particular element or not and at time the native will crave a lot more to have the element that is represented by the same gender.

In Western astrology, if you are into midpoints, you may also look into the the midpoints that indicates sexual preferences that is different from the norm. Also we should remember to consider midpoints and triggers that can be applied to or activated in progression rather the natal promises/indicators will be manifested or not.

Having the tendency but not necessary able to act on is a very important point which is why interpretation of a natal chart should also be culturally/socially sensitive. In my opinion which I had demonstrated where I will look at when the question is about sexuality or anything relevant to sexual matters. I have not done study on Vedic but had heard that 12th house/12 divisional chart can also show the secret activity in the bedroom of the native.
 

miquar

Well-known member
I think this is one of those things that goes round and round. If anyone wants to test their ability to see sexuality the birth chart, they can ask someone they trust to provide them with some charts of people of various sexualties, and see if they can work it out. There's no other way to settle it.
 

poyi

Premium Member
As long as you have accurate charts with already known sexual preferences we can do blind testing. But the chart should be given by a member whom is not in any bias supporting neither the for or against. The chart should be clear reference of such sexual preference not a random individual that anyone can make up the sexual preference after all the hard work being done then the chart provider may by any mean change the answer afterward. The chart should have evidence and reference to back up it sexual preference claim.
 
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Allen

Well-known member
Re: Irresistible magnetic attraction to women of power

The fact that you'd "have to know" such info. shows that you cannot see it in the chart!! If you already know all that info about a person, then there's really no point in digging around the chart to give proof of something you already know about the person :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Finding sexuality in the chart, that's preposterous!!!

Exactly. If our charts dictated who we are to that extent it would also have to dictate our choices for us, at which point life no longer becomes a test and becomes some kind of helpless ride, instead. The error in astrology is when you think it dictates life, at which point it becomes fortune telling. "Will I lose my fortunes or will I not?" I don't know it depends on your choice to invest or not, which understanding cycles helps give you a better insight on, not a magical answer to.
 

poyi

Premium Member
There is one very fundamental thing in astrology I thought about a lot. It is not that we have no choice or free will but in fact the stars traveling in predictive sequences and time that their lights also traveling faster than our perception of current time so from standing at the point of view Now we would be threaten and disbelieved that any prediction could be possible and accurate as we would automatically think ourselves living like a robot.

But we are simply under the influence of time and space of now without thinking the time and space of the stars occurred and beyond our own timeline. That is why we can look back and looking now as well as forward of our own timeline, if with skills in great accuracy. This is nothing against your thought of free will at the same time all had been written by the stars as they telling us the story before we even getting to that point in life. If we add the concepts of astronomy like the ancient astrologers you will find what I am saying here making sense.

Without coming through this idea you will not be able to open your heart and mind to do predictive astrology.
 
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poyi

Premium Member
In fact, we can predict the timing of moving aboard with the change of cultures and value of the society, even sexuality that is not norm to the original society and culture is now allowed to be liberated. It is very scary thing to think about even the ability to do so had already written in the chart. What I am saying here is not non sense, as they are clearly written as natal promises, when transits, progressions, eclipses in actions, they will be manifested at the timing that is predictable as long as you have accurate birth time.

Even our feelings..., very often when transit Saturn or Progressed Saturn in contact with natal or progressed Moon in conjunction, square and opposition, you may experience depression or depressive period of your life. Looking back the time you felt the pain and sorrows, Mars, Saturn, Pluto what were they doing to your Moon. It is not that we living like robot and unable to change life, but clearly, as the Speed of Light, they had already occurred.
 

Ebenia

Well-known member
I think it is a bit odd to say that we would be able to predict and see everything else from the chart but NOT sexuality. I think that is really weird. Of course you can see it in the chart! Why not? Just because sexuality is some sort of a taboo in our society, that does not mean that chart does not show it. Chart does not say that "hey because in our society is inappropriate to talk about sexual orientation, I shall not show these parts in the astrological chart of a human being"...what? :D Of course it can show it.

Especially vedic astrology is very knowledgeble on these things and able to predict very accurately that one is bisexual or gay. There is nothing weird or hard about it. It is just like predicting if the person will want children or not or whether they want to get married or what kind of job they will end up doing.

Would I, as an astrologer, bring something like this up in an astrological interpretation? Probably not, if it wasn't clearly a question, but only because it can be seen as socially rude or intrusive, not because astrology or I could not see it.
 

greybeard

Well-known member
Re: Irresistible magnetic attraction to women of power

First, there seems to be a natural (?) leaning toward reading "sexuality" as "homosexuality vs. straight."

Sexuality is whatever your sexual proclivities are.

The premise is this: Sexuality is a natural expression of the person as a whole. Our sexual expression flows from our personality, has roots in childhood experience, can be perverted or distorted...and the chart shows these things.

One of the problems we face in assessing sexuality is that we are looking for "sexuality indicators" in the chart, specific keys to tell us that Little Johnny will grow up to be gay, when it is the entire chart that speaks to the issue. So, in looking for specific indications we overlook much of what the chart tells us.

In the question "Will I lose my fortune....?" one astrologer replies "I don't know. It depends on whether you choose to invest or not." Here is the love of free will gone riot.
Because the chart shows whether the subject will (is likely to) invest or not. A chart shows whether a person leans toward caution (say 6 planets in Earth) or toward rash impetuosity (a stellium in Aries). Neither the Earthy preponderance nor the Aries stellium are determined specifically toward "losing one's fortune," but both tell us the likelihood of adventurous investing due to their intrinsic natures.

Sexuality is seen in the same way as the superficial example above. The sexual orientation is not seen by looking at banners. It is found by understanding the whole person.
 

mdinaz

Well-known member
Re: Irresistible magnetic attraction to women of power

Greybeard - I view "sexuality" as the energies a person puts forth - whether feminine or masculine or neuter. "Sexual proclivity" I view as what they actually do, sexually - whether homosexual, heterosexual, etc. A person can be a male in body but put forth nothing but feminine energy. This doesn't mean automatically they are homosexual. If I see a male chart with predominately female energy - AND the typical indicators of sexual expression indicate struggles with the societal norm - then there might be an indication of other-than-heterosexual behavior. BUT - there is still free will. Just because a person has these feelings doesn't mean they will act on it. This will be determined by peer pressure, parental influence, overall environment, and desire. Those things cannot be predicted although particular transits may indicate a time when these things could possibly occur, and progressions may confirm. "Sexuality" can be seen in the chart, easily. "Sexual proclivity" can be inferred in extreme cases, but cannot be determined that they will absolutely exist - only that the tendency is there, just like a bad temper and violence can be seen in a chart, but doesn't necessarily mean the person will assault or kill anyone.
 

Lena_

Well-known member
Re: Irresistible magnetic attraction to women of power

Greybeard - I view "sexuality" as the energies a person puts forth - whether feminine or masculine or neuter. "Sexual proclivity" I view as what they actually do, sexually - whether homosexual, heterosexual, etc. A person can be a male in body but put forth nothing but feminine energy. This doesn't mean automatically they are homosexual. If I see a male chart with predominately female energy - AND the typical indicators of sexual expression indicate struggles with the societal norm - then there might be an indication of other-than-heterosexual behavior. BUT - there is still free will. Just because a person has these feelings doesn't mean they will act on it. This will be determined by peer pressure, parental influence, overall environment, and desire. Those things cannot be predicted although particular transits may indicate a time when these things could possibly occur, and progressions may confirm. "Sexuality" can be seen in the chart, easily. "Sexual proclivity" can be inferred in extreme cases, but cannot be determined that they will absolutely exist - only that the tendency is there, just like a bad temper and violence can be seen in a chart, but doesn't necessarily mean the person will assault or kill anyone.


There should be an 'applause' button...

Lena
 

poyi

Premium Member
There are shockingly accurate midpoints out there for people to discover about sexual orientation even moment of child birth. Manifestation is first natal promises, then progression, transit, eclipses, then of course you have to have opportunities by meeting the right person that will be synastry, composite, and then cultural, social, environmental factors and age.

With the example of violence and actual killing that again, you have to have a large build up mutiple events and time with the right person...a killer do kill someone often due to many years of tension and build up such as mental health and unresolved emotional issues or material life blockages many events and people required to actual manifest this tendency. I think there are massive amount of information and predictions required to pin point such manifestation but still possible.
 

miquar

Well-known member
I think it is a bit odd to say that we would be able to predict and see everything else from the chart but NOT sexuality.

Can we see everything in the chart? Take a chart with a Venus Pluto aspect - perhaps this person has a preference for music which has passion and perhaps music which deals with stuff that you wouldn't normally talk about round the dinner table. But what? Punk? Wagner? And what if this person has been traumatised by early relationship experiences and finds any remotely energetic music overwhelming and disturbing. Or what if she or he finds more pleasure in silence, having touched the void beneath any of the emotions typically triggered by musical experience.

My point is that we can hardly tell anything about a person from their chart with any degree of certainty if we're considering the actual forms and experiences through which the pattern shown in the natal chart will be expressed. We can see that, say, the Mars function is conjunct the Neptune function in the chart of a male, but not whether this will result in a homosexual orientation or in blatant homophobia, as in the comedian Jim Davidson, who has a very close conjunction of these planets - or any one of many other possibilities.

It does seem from research that sexual orientation is to a large extent pre-determined in many or most cases. But so is race, gender, condition of limbs and organs, potential height, and so on. None of these biologically predetermined factors can be seen in the birth chart. No factor or combination of factors separates a short person from a tall person, a male from a female, or a heterosexual from a homosexual. We wouldn't assume that someone with a Mercury Neptune square is deceitful, so why would we assume that someone with a Venus Uranus square or a Mars Saturn square is homosexual? I find the idea that sexuality can be seen in the birth chart very odd, and would encourage people who believe that they have an astrological 'gay-dar' at their disposal to test it on some blind examples.

EDIT: the use of a negative example of Mercury Neptune aspects is in no way intended to suggest that homosexuality is in any way negative.
 
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Lena_

Well-known member
It does seem from research that sexual orientation is to a large extent pre-determined in many or most cases.

I beg to differ there, miquar. I know you can (if haven't already) find many articles on this subject.

Sexuality is a mean of expression/interraction, in a much more intimate way. The Core is driven by natural urges but, the Way it is going to manifest in order to satisfy the native best is not, by any way pre-determined in a pathologo-anatomic way.

I'm not a shrink but having own opinion in the subject I'd say that
  • The Way sexuality is expressed is conditioned by environmental factors. If you haven't ever met cream/sugar, you'll enjoy your coffee black.
  • The Tension sexuality is expressed is conditined by experimenting environmental factors again. If you only have half a teaspoon of sugar and you like it sweet, that is as far as sweet you'll enjoy your coffee.. But if you were told that sugar is a poison (sin) most possibly you'd live a sugarless life unless circumstances pointed you otherwhere..
  • The Variety with which sexuality is expressed,
  • The Ethics under which sexuality is expressed/confined, are once more conditioned by environmental factors.

None of these has to do Just by picking the partner by gender...

So, picking what suits one best is mostly according to the stimuli environment is going to give/provide.
If you have the "chandelier" within you, you'll probably get to pick the most "extreme" your life meets. Yet the level of extremity is always subjective, isn't it..

That, along with many other things about a natives' personality gets you (me) to wonder if one is living life as should or, as programmed and stimulated...

Lena,
2cents
 

miquar

Well-known member
But we're all exposed to both genders from birth, so the coffee analogy isn't relevant. There are many biological factors which determine who we're attracted to, so that we mate with people who have complimentary immune systems, etc. We are not consciously aware of these motivations - we just are them. The same can be said of which gender(s) we are sexually attracted to. We just are without thinking about it, and there are strong biological factors motivating this. There are effeminate heterosexual males and masculine homosexual males. Identification with effeminate or masculine archetypes is often reflected to a large extent in the birth chart, but sexual proclivity - to use the clarified term offered by Greybeard - is biological like being human, having a gender, having blond hair, and all the other things that are outside the 'jurisdiction' of the chart.
 
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mdinaz

Well-known member
Can we see everything in the chart? Take a chart with a Venus Pluto aspect - perhaps this person has a preference for music which has passion and perhaps music which deals with stuff that you wouldn't normally talk about round the dinner table. But what? Punk? Wagner? And what if this person has been traumatised by early relationship experiences and finds any remotely energetic music overwhelming and disturbing. Or what if she or he finds more pleasure in silence, having touched the void beneath any of the emotions typically triggered by musical experience.

That's what we are saying. We're not saying that you can specify precisely what form the sexual proclivity is - whether homosexual, bisexual, etc - but you can identify that the person struggles with sexuality and expresses it in a manner that opposes the societal norm, whatever form that norm takes. You can see whether someone expresses female or male energy, despite gender - and you can see how they struggle with that, whether emotional, spiritual or societal.


My point is that we can hardly tell anything about a person from their chart with any degree of certainty if we're considering the actual forms and experiences through which the pattern shown in the natal chart will be expressed.
Nothing in astrology is 100% certain - you can only show that the tendency exists. Whether the person expresses it or not is up to them, influenced by various external and internal factors. But because they don't express it for you to see doesn't mean the tendency or struggle isn't there inside them. Witness the people who are secretly homosexual but still marry and have kids and hide it all their lives until coming out late in life.

We can see that, say, the Mars function is conjunct the Neptune function in the chart of a male, but not whether this will result in a homosexual orientation or in blatant homophobia, as in the comedian Jim Davidson, who has a very close conjunction of these planets - or any one of many other possibilities.
It would take more than that just by itself. Mars in Aries conjunct Neptune would express differently than Mars in Pisces. Other aspects to Mars would be needed also - such as a close square to Mars by Saturn or Uranus, for example, along with some other aspects, like Sun or Mars opposition Moon, for example. No one aspect is going to do it - it would take a combination of factors.

It does seem from research that sexual orientation is to a large extent pre-determined in many or most cases. But so is race, gender, condition of limbs and organs, potential height, and so on.
You are missing an important point here. You can't "choose" to be black, or not be black, or to be tall or short. You CAN choose whether to have sex, and who to have sex with. Not everyone selects sexual partners on the exact same basis - some choose because they feel the opposite gender - some select based emotional trauma - some select out of boredom - some select to be rebellious and different. This goes for heterosexuality as well.

EDIT: the use of a negative example of Mercury Neptune aspects is in no way intended to suggest that homosexuality is in any way negative.
I'm still suspecting your main problem is a fear of being judgmental. Nobody is judging anybody here.
 

miquar

Well-known member
But you can't choose who you are attracted to.

I don't have any fear of being judged as politically incorrect or anything like that.

I don't think that issues of social rebellion have much, if anything, to do with who we are attracted to.

I also don't think that any sexual proclivity arises from a sense of struggle with one's sexuality. People of all proclivities struggle with the expression of their sexuality, and such struggles are often shown in the birth chart.

Lots of terms like 'might' and 'tendency' and 'other influences' are being used by those supporting the idea of that sexual proclivity is shown in the birth chart. I agree that there may be some statistically verifiable trends, but think that it will be seen that the biological influence is the overwhelming factor, and that this is not shown in the birth chart.

Unless someone can demonstrate that sexual proclivity is shown in the chart, the logical conclusion is to categorise sexual proclivity along with other biologically predetermined factors, and use astrology to interpret such things as effeminate vs masculine (not always reliable), inhibited vs confident, sensual vs detached etc etc - not: 'programmed to sleep with the same gender' vs 'programmed to sleep with the opposite gender'.
 

mdinaz

Well-known member
But you can't choose who you are attracted to.

You can certainly choose who you have relations with however, whether you are attracted to them or not.


I don't think that issues of social rebellion have much, if anything, to do with who we are attracted to.
They often have to do with WHO we choose to have relations with. You seem to think that people only have sex with people they're attracted to. Many don't, but do it anyway, for many reasons.

I also don't think that any sexual proclivity arises from a sense of struggle with one's sexuality. People of all proclivities struggle with the expression of their sexuality, and such struggles are often shown in the birth chart.
Okay, now you admit that sexual struggles show up in the chart. That's what we've been saying all along.

Lots of terms like 'might' and 'tendency' and 'other influences' are being used by those supporting the idea of that sexual proclivity is shown in the birth chart. I agree that there may be some statistically verifiable trends, but think that it will be seen that the biological influence is the overwhelming factor, and that this is not shown in the birth chart.
No - sexual proclivity is not shown in the chart. SEXUALITY and any struggles therein are shown in the chart. How those struggles are expressed come out as sexual proclivities, which cannot be predicted, if that person chooses to express them at all or just suppress them.
 

Lena_

Well-known member
But you can't choose who you are attracted to.

If you get to realise what is that that attracts you, yes, you have a saying there.

I also don't think that any sexual proclivity arises from a sense of struggle with one's sexuality. People of all proclivities struggle with the expression of their sexuality, and such struggles are often shown in the birth chart.

That isn't JUST about the gender of the partner, miquar. The gender-partner factor is just what prevails most. I could name types of partners, quantity of them, ways of interraction, style, age.. you name it!
But, thankfully, the society (8th) cannot see always that far into someones sexuality so just focuses only in what is easily visible. And that is the gender.

Lots of terms like 'might' and 'tendency' and 'other influences' are being used by those supporting the idea of that sexual proclivity is shown in the birth chart. I agree that there may be some statistically verifiable trends, but think that it will be seen that the biological influence is the overwhelming factor, and that this is not shown in the birth chart.

On the other hand I'd think that *everything* is shown in the chart. The chart won't say "woman" or "man" but it'll suggest the dynamics, the tension, the rythm, the quantity..

Nowadays the social models for men and women are weakened. I've seen heterosexual couples with the 'traditional roles' reversed. I've seen homosexual couples with fixed roles -the passive and the dominant. And That, the role that each is willing to accept for oneself, Is shown in a chart.

Is was mentioned before but I'll rephrase: The career that one is 'meant' for isn't necessarily the one that will get fulfilled. And you can't pinpoint the jod itself rather the dynamics of it, for the "promise" is in the natal.


Unless someone can demonstrate that sexual proclivity is shown in the chart, the logical conclusion is to categorise sexual proclivity along with other biologically predetermined factors, and use astrology to interpret such things as effeminate vs masculine (not always reliable), inhibited vs confident, sensual vs detached etc etc - not: 'programmed to sleep with the same gender' vs 'programmed to sleep with the opposite gender'.

That, I see as a techicallity..
A good astrologer, imo, isn't able to "predict" the gender, the species or whatever, but they can certainly see how the native Feels about (12th, 5th) it and what is/would be the reaction of the Society (8th, 10th, 11th). That, giving the environmental factors (culture etc) could lead to "socialy accepted" sexuality, taboo, crime etc characterization..

Lena
 
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