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Mundane Astrology Discuss the astrology of towns, cities, states, provinces, countries, empires, and the world in general.


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  #51  
Unread 06-11-2021, 06:01 AM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

I looked up the history of abolition of slavery, and it's not so simple. The concept precedes the Civil War by many centuries.

During the Middle Ages, European agricultural peasants (called serfs) had very few rights. They essentially belonged to the manor or estate where they were born. They couldn't just decide to move. They had obligations to farm the lord's land, to pay taxes, and serve in the army if called on to do so. Their status was comparable to that of slaves, with just a few more rights.

Chattel slavery was also practiced. But various laws made it illegal for Jews or Muslims to own Christian slaves.

Wikipedia has a timeline for when serfdom and chattel slavery were abolished:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeli...ry_and_serfdom

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  #52  
Unread 06-11-2021, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
In characterizing the United States as it developed over the Centuries, Neptune in Libra makes more sense than Neptune in Virgo.

Using the Cornwallis Chart, the U.S. was having its Neptune Return when the Allies won WWII.

The music and clothing styles changed, and the Civil Rights Movement got under way.

Moon/conjunct Jupiter in Scorpio makes more sense than Moon in Aquarius. We're not an emotionally detached nation. We want what we want when we want it, and can get quite emotional and passionate about it.

But, with Neptune in Libra, and Pluto in Aquarius, we strive to be fair-minded. So, despite wanting the economic benefits of slavery, it was understood to be morally wrong, and something to be abolished.

Last edited by david starling; 06-11-2021 at 06:19 AM.
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  #53  
Unread 06-11-2021, 12:17 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post
https://astrolibrary.org/interpretations/weak-earth/

I looked up no earth signs. Here is a link. How do you feel about a earth free chart for the US?
Opal,

I couldn't help but chuckle when I read in your link that charts without Earth "...overspend and borrow money freely..." This is EXACTLY what the US has struggled with over the decades: WAY too much spending on government money to the point now where the President of the US casually tosses off 6 TRILLION dollar budgets as if there were NO consequences to overspending. Reality is setting in as US inflation starts to spiral up again, as it did in the 70s with the US' overspending.

Also this caught my eye: "They may hold onto a job or relationship too long..." which is exactly what has happened with the US citizens and their politicians, where voters hang onto unproductive politicians too long, hoping they will somehow become better even though they have been proved a disaster. More and more voters are becoming aware of the problem of over-idealized politicians who provide no value in doing the job of the US government: securing people's individual rights (per the Declaration of Independence: "That to secure these [individual] rights, Governments are instituted among Men..."

Seeing the Void,

Tim
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Last edited by wilsontc; 06-11-2021 at 12:19 PM.
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  #54  
Unread 06-11-2021, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
Opal,

I couldn't help but chuckle when I read in your link that charts without Earth "...overspend and borrow money freely..." This is EXACTLY what the US has struggled with over the decades: WAY too much spending on government money to the point now where the President of the US casually tosses off 6 TRILLION dollar budgets as if there were NO consequences to overspending. Reality is setting in as US inflation starts to spiral up again, as it did in the 70s with the US' overspending.

Also this caught my eye: "They may hold onto a job or relationship too long..." which is exactly what has happened with the US citizens and their politicians, where voters hang onto unproductive politicians too long, hoping they will somehow become better even though they have been proved a disaster. More and more voters are becoming aware of the problem of over-idealized politicians who provide no value in doing the job of the US government: securing people's individual rights (per the Declaration of Independence: "That to secure these [individual] rights, Governments are instituted among Men..."

Seeing the Void,

Tim
Interesting chart. Also, the sun in the tenth, in Libra. House of the President or Monarch.. According to Green reputation, credit and power as well. Being in Libra, a fairness should be seen.

Also of note, the nodes, groups of people, are in the fourth , of the people.

The sun and nodes are very in opposition.

Last edited by Opal; 06-11-2021 at 01:53 PM.
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  #55  
Unread 06-11-2021, 01:39 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

All,

Now I'm looking at transiting Saturn moving in orb of conjuncting Mars in early February 2020. This was the time the US authorities were starting to look into the possibility of a US shut down. As Saturn moved closer and closer to Mars the shutdown becomes more severe. In early March 2021 Saturn was on Mars and US was still mostly completely shut down. Only after March 2021, when Saturn moved off of Mars did the state shutdowns show signs of being let up widely in the US (although some states led by Republican governors had already opened up). Saturn moves completely off of Mars in the Cornwallis chart in early February 2022 so it will be interesting to compare that date to when the US is fully open across all 50 states.

Following the Chart,

Tim
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  #56  
Unread 06-11-2021, 01:56 PM
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All,

Now I'm looking at transiting Saturn moving in orb of conjuncting Mars in early February 2020. This was the time the US authorities were starting to look into the possibility of a US shut down. As Saturn moved closer and closer to Mars the shutdown becomes more severe. In early March 2021 Saturn was on Mars and US was still mostly completely shut down. Only after March 2021, when Saturn moved off of Mars did the state shutdowns show signs of being let up widely in the US (although some states led by Republican governors had already opened up). Saturn moves completely off of Mars in the Cornwallis chart in early February 2022 so it will be interesting to compare that date to when the US is fully open across all 50 states.

Following the Chart,

Tim
Or will the New World Order be achieved and masking and vaccines will be the new normal?
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  #57  
Unread 06-11-2021, 03:27 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

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Originally Posted by Opal View Post
Interesting chart. Also, the sun in the tenth, in Libra. House of the President or Monarch.. According to Green reputation, credit and power as well. Being in Libra, a fairness should be seen.

Also of note, the nodes, groups of people, are in the fourth , of the people.

The sun and nodes are very in opposition.
And as I pointed out recently, the sun falls in Libra. It is also conjunct the south node. MC ruler Venus is in detriment in Scorpio. Not very encouraging for a nation's birth chart.

Uranus in the mundane 7th could show a military upset. which is why I think the OP chart makes more sense as the chart of the British defeat.

Which is true enough. Britain did not actually relinquish its territorial claim to the 13 colonies/states and western territories until the Treaty of Paris.

And come to think of it, Tim: what would be the chart for the Cornwallis surrender as such, if somehow different from a US birth chart of the identical time, date, and location??? Alternatively, where would you see that surrender in the OP chart?
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  #58  
Unread 06-11-2021, 03:42 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

So where do you see the horrendous infection and mortality rates from covid, Tim? [Please don't tell us that you're a covid denier.] This surely has to be seen as a major significant event in US history, along with the influenza epidemic of 1918-19.

We are now also seeing a steep drop in the US birth rate paired with the worst of the pandemic.

Onset dates for pandemics are notoriously difficult to pin down. One can see a rise in recorded cases when Saturn and Jupiter in Capricorn were joined by additional planets, notably Pluto. Jupiter normally is a mitigating factor, but it was hampered in its fall in Capricorn.

Of course, the wisdom of those Republican governors remains to be seen. One hopes they are not simply authorizing super-spreader events and destinations.

I think it's important not to let your political beliefs, no matter how sincere, color your analysis. This is why in mundane astrology it's best to just stick to a range of verifiable known dates that are independent of the astrologer's political persuasion. For example, nobody is going to disagree about the date when the US entered WW II, regardless of how far they sit on the right or the left.

ps.-- Tim it also occurs to me to ask whether the Arroyo book you cite deals with mundane astrology. My recollection is that it is entirely about natal chart interpretation. If so, it's not clear how well genethliacal astrology transfers to mundane astrology. Mundane astrology is a separate branch with its own interpretive methods. The two branches are similar but by no means identical.


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Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
All,

Now I'm looking at transiting Saturn moving in orb of conjuncting Mars in early February 2020. This was the time the US authorities were starting to look into the possibility of a US shut down. As Saturn moved closer and closer to Mars the shutdown becomes more severe. In early March 2021 Saturn was on Mars and US was still mostly completely shut down. Only after March 2021, when Saturn moved off of Mars did the state shutdowns show signs of being let up widely in the US (although some states led by Republican governors had already opened up). Saturn moves completely off of Mars in the Cornwallis chart in early February 2022 so it will be interesting to compare that date to when the US is fully open across all 50 states.

Following the Chart,

Tim
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 06-11-2021 at 03:47 PM.
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  #59  
Unread 06-11-2021, 07:38 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

WB, while you're condemning white people with the ludicrous 1619 Project & the racist CRT, how about taking a good look at your own country & its leaders.



Discovery of Mass Grave of 215 First Nations Children Shines Spotlight Onto Uncomfortable Truths



This is obviously embarrassing for a nation which has grown accustomed to “enlightened” virtue signaling often being the first to condemn alleged cases of government-sanctioned genocide and human rights abuses against nations like Libya, Syria and most recently China. The consequences of Canada’s liberal self-righteous condemnation of other nations’ bad behavior to their minority groups has resulted in Canada’s support for acts of war such as sanctions, spreading misinformation which often ignores the role of western intelligence agencies at the heart of many of the operations- especially across Africa and the ME- and has even led to the outright bombing of nations back to the stone age with the full backing of liberal imperialists among Canada’s power structure.

When such paragons of liberal enlightenment like Prime Minister Trudeau cry crocodile tears over the abuses committed against the First Nations over the decades- and the current mass grave situation is no exception- it is often undertaken with a fair dose of misdirection and fallacy. For instance, the language heard by virtue signalling politicians implies that these injustices are a thing of the past and the new “normal” involves a hypersensitivity and respect for First Nations.


https://matthewehret.substack.com/p/...e-of-215-first

Ever looked at the chart of Canada to see where this total lack of self-awareness comes from?

I'll give you a clue. AC & the inability to see who they really are. While Canadians 'virtue-signal' & preach about peace & harmony, they are part of the British Monarchy. U.S.A. never wanted to be slaves to the King & they fought a revolution to be completely independent. Maybe it's time Canada broke free too?

https://melpriestley.ca/exploring-ca...s-natal-chart/






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I looked up the history of abolition of slavery, and it's not so simple. The concept precedes the Civil War by many centuries.
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  #60  
Unread 06-12-2021, 03:27 AM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

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WB, while you're condemning white people with the ludicrous 1619 Project & the racist CRT, how about taking a good look at your own country & its leaders....
Blackbery, I never condemned white people or even mentioned the 1619 project or critical race theory. I guess you did.

My own country happens to be the United States of America. I was born and raised in the US. I am a US citizen and taxpayer. My primary residence has been in Canada for some years, however, and I am now a dual citizen. Most of my family is in the US, and prior to the border closure I spent months out of every year in the US.

Nobody in Canada today is justifying the former residential schools for First Nations children. The outlines and many of the facts of these schools have been known for decades. Probably you know about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and its report of 2015. It's on-line if you'd like to look it up and read it.

It was known that these schools had cemeteries but no playgrounds for their inmates.

Recently more information has come to light. It will undergo a thorough review, involving the participation of First Nations people affected by this scandal.

The history of the U.S treatment of Native people is also tragic, scandalous, and sickening. Which is why it is shocking to read about white people today who want to ignore the history of minorities in the name of some kind of Anglo-approved "unity."

Unfortunately, history is about telling the truth about the past, as best as we can understand it. It is not about making the dominant group feel comfortable.

Blackbery, you know and understand too little Canadian history to lecture anyone about it. But if it makes you feel better, I did not vote for Justin Trudeau.

Incidentally, your own posts are full of "virtue signaling."

'Nuff said?? Shall we return to the actual thread topic?
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 06-12-2021 at 03:29 AM.
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  #61  
Unread 06-12-2021, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
And as I pointed out recently, the sun falls in Libra. It is also conjunct the south node. MC ruler Venus is in detriment in Scorpio. Not very encouraging for a nation's birth chart.

Uranus in the mundane 7th could show a military upset. which is why I think the OP chart makes more sense as the chart of the British defeat.

Which is true enough. Britain did not actually relinquish its territorial claim to the 13 colonies/states and western territories until the Treaty of Paris.

And come to think of it, Tim: what would be the chart for the Cornwallis surrender as such, if somehow different from a US birth chart of the identical time, date, and location??? Alternatively, where would you see that surrender in the OP chart?
Hi Waybread,

Yes, you did talk of Libra Sun opposing Nodes.

Uranus also, represents the legislative assembly, particularly those of the party in power. The way that communication is done with other, not so friendly nations, are represented by the seventh, friendly nations are represented by the 11th.
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  #62  
Unread 06-12-2021, 04:17 AM
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Blackbery, I never condemned white people or even mentioned the 1619 project or critical race theory. I guess you did.

My own country happens to be the United States of America. I was born and raised in the US. I am a US citizen and taxpayer. My primary residence has been in Canada for some years, however, and I am now a dual citizen. Most of my family is in the US, and prior to the border closure I spent months out of every year in the US.

Nobody in Canada today is justifying the former residential schools for First Nations children. The outlines and many of the facts of these schools have been known for decades. Probably you know about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and its report of 2015. It's on-line if you'd like to look it up and read it.

It was known that these schools had cemeteries but no playgrounds for their inmates.

Recently more information has come to light. It will undergo a thorough review, involving the participation of First Nations people affected by this scandal.

The history of the U.S treatment of Native people is also tragic, scandalous, and sickening. Which is why it is shocking to read about white people today who want to ignore the history of minorities in the name of some kind of Anglo-approved "unity."

Unfortunately, history is about telling the truth about the past, as best as we can understand it. It is not about making the dominant group feel comfortable.

Blackbery, you know and understand too little Canadian history to lecture anyone about it. But if it makes you feel better, I did not vote for Justin Trudeau.

Incidentally, your own posts are full of "virtue signaling."

'Nuff said?? Shall we return to the actual thread topic?
I may be wrong, but I think that our present (Canada) Prime Ministers father, was in power, when the residential schools were abolished.
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  #63  
Unread 06-12-2021, 04:18 AM
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Opal,

I couldn't help but chuckle when I read in your link that charts without Earth "...overspend and borrow money freely..." This is EXACTLY what the US has struggled with over the decades: WAY too much spending on government money to the point now where the President of the US casually tosses off 6 TRILLION dollar budgets as if there were NO consequences to overspending. Reality is setting in as US inflation starts to spiral up again, as it did in the 70s with the US' overspending.

Also this caught my eye: "They may hold onto a job or relationship too long..." which is exactly what has happened with the US citizens and their politicians, where voters hang onto unproductive politicians too long, hoping they will somehow become better even though they have been proved a disaster. More and more voters are becoming aware of the problem of over-idealized politicians who provide no value in doing the job of the US government: securing people's individual rights (per the Declaration of Independence: "That to secure these [individual] rights, Governments are instituted among Men..."

Seeing the Void,

Tim
Happy to have got a chuckle out of you🙂
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  #64  
Unread 06-12-2021, 04:22 AM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

What do you all think of Chiron be in the 4th, house of the working class?

Last edited by Opal; 06-13-2021 at 02:06 PM.
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  #65  
Unread 06-12-2021, 04:34 AM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

Thanks, Opal.

The US did have a residential school system for Native American children, as well. Here is a brief summary of them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americ...arding_schools

One thing I might point out is that Canada has an official indigenous nation category of Métis, or people with French and First Nations backgrounds (primarily.) So far as I know, the Métis of the United States have no officially recognized status.

Both countries have a wretched record of dealings with indigenous people. One hopes for some improvement with the appointment of Deb Haaland as Secretary of the Interior, which includes the BIA.

Tim-- surely the land base has been a huge issue in the Revolutionary War and subsequently, notably in the Treaty of Paris and land cession treaties with Native Americans.

A 4th house matter??
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  #66  
Unread 06-12-2021, 01:29 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

Mars in the 2nd, stock exchange panics, losses, banking losses. Saturn transit has just passed here. Pluto transit is headed there. This natal conjunction of Pluto and Mars in the second house of the government finances would be a volatile one, and with the present transit of Saturn we witnessed stock exchange turbulence.
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  #67  
Unread 06-12-2021, 01:35 PM
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Thanks, Opal.

The US did have a residential school system for Native American children, as well. Here is a brief summary of them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americ...arding_schools

One thing I might point out is that Canada has an official indigenous nation category of Métis, or people with French and First Nations backgrounds (primarily.) So far as I know, the Métis of the United States have no officially recognized status.

Both countries have a wretched record of dealings with indigenous people. One hopes for some improvement with the appointment of Deb Haaland as Secretary of the Interior, which includes the BIA.

Tim-- surely the land base has been a huge issue in the Revolutionary War and subsequently, notably in the Treaty of Paris and land cession treaties with Native Americans.

A 4th house matter??
Yes. The reserves, are being handled better now, they have been taking back their power, by starting businesses and ventures on their land. Some of them are doing very well, and they are sharing their knowledge and expertise with other peoples. It is a time of change.🙂
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Unread 06-12-2021, 04:02 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

All,

Now looking at the big picture of the chart. It's interesting that most of the planets are in the "Maturity" part of the chart, where the native uses their lessons from the outer world to develop themselves personally. This, again, goes along with the theory of the US being a continually improving country. That mistakes have been made in the past and the US continues to work to use awareness of those mistakes to develop itself.

The strong focus on the Self side of the chart also indicates a country of great self-importance and self-identity: this indicates a country which focuses on itself and its own needs first before that of the world in general. Naturally this intense self-focus can arouse anger and even envy in other countries. Helping this strong sense of Self is Sun conjunct South node (the past) in the House of Duty at the very top of the chart. This is a country that naturally attracts attention in the outer world and is connected to strong sense of expressing itself in doing its duty to the world. However, the North node (future goals) in the House of the home in Aries indicates the ultimate goal is to come back home and take care of itself. The challenge of the Sun conjunct the South node in the House of Duty is there is a sense of being held back, of WANTING to be "at home" but feeling the CONSTANT pull of the outer world and doing one's duty to get noticed.

Pluto in the House of Money suggests a continual need for using other people's money as the US's own money, suggesting continually higher level of taxation. Pluto is in Aquarius so this money is tied into the goal of Social Security, underlining the strong focus in the House of Social Security.

Still Looking,

Tim

P.S. As suggested, I see the time of the Pluto return as being VERY important in understanding what's going on with Covid in the US: Covid turned into an issue of control and power as Pluto approached its return and now that Pluto has started its return this issue of control and power is being even more strongly increased. Wherever you come down politically, it can easily be seen that government (Pluto) at all levels have used Covid as a way to grant powers that go far beyond US Constitutional and even State mandates for governmental power. What happens to these powers as the Covid emergency wanes is what will drive the death and rebirth of the US and what the reborn US will look like after the Pluto return is over.
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Unread 06-12-2021, 07:54 PM
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Tim, how to interpret the extremely tight Moon/Jupiter conjunction in 29+ degrees Scorpio in H11?

Especially considering Pluto as ruler of Scorpio.
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Unread 06-12-2021, 08:27 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Tim, how to interpret the extremely tight Moon/Jupiter conjunction in 29+ degrees Scorpio in H11?

Especially considering Pluto as ruler of Scorpio.
So...the US' Lunar placement gives us an Ophiuchus (parazodiac)-galactic center (29' Scorpio cusp 1' Sagittarius) -proven Sagittarius (astrologers said the USA is Sagittarian, opposite an equally strong Gemini) superpower. And in the 11th house, a popular standing in the room of 200 other nations plus the Vatican (maybe 205 total nations including Taiwan, Palestine and Western Sahara). We were destined to surpass the ancient Greek, Roman, Spanish, British and Soviet empires as the strongest nation in world history alright.
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or , I have the same ruling planets: Uranus and Saturn. I see the Cancer rising. Aries in the MC and Venus was her name!
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Unread 06-13-2021, 03:03 AM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

Tim, are you confusing or conflating individual nativities with mundane charts???

They have some similarities but also some striking differences. I have actually never heard of a "maturity" or "self" side of a natal chart, let alone for mundane astrology.

But given your interpretation as-is, why would your chart explain these attributes uniquely for the United States? All countries put their own interests first, declining cooperation that seems disadvantageous, short of some kind of economic or military threat from a more powerful country. Can you name other countries that didn't put their own interests first unless they were dominated by a colonial power, threatened with economic sanctions, or courting invasion from a powerful neighbour if they acted up?

The US is a signatory of many bi-lateral and multi-lateral treaties, trade agreements, and mutual defense organizations. Cooperation and coalition-building is sometimes the way to further mutual as well as American goals.

The US is not an isolationist country, although it has briefly retreated somewhat in that direction at various times. President Biden announced to world leaders that "The US is back!"

I think what you're doing is trying to give the US a kind of personality as though it were a person, that isn't entirely accurate with respect to historical events and current international politics and economics.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

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Unread 06-13-2021, 03:10 AM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

Tim, I think you're still got a problem with using a chart for the "birth" of the US that is more specifically a chart for the surrender of the British army at Yorktown.

With all the great things you see for the US in your chart, it should also show the British defeat as an important event in its own right, shouldn't it? How would you interpret the chart from a British perspective?
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Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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Unread 06-13-2021, 01:58 PM
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Pluto in the House of Money suggests a continual need for using other people's money as the US's own money, suggesting continually higher level of taxation. Pluto is in Aquarius so this money is tied into the goal of Social Security, underlining the strong focus in the House of Social Security.


Hi Tim,

Regarding the above, I am under the impression that the 2nd house is about “monies made by the chart drawn” and that the 8th represents “other people’s monies.”

Pluto also represents hidden things. In this house, I would have it as hidden, or unseen monies.

Mars, stock exchange and panics, banking upheaval and waste of public monies.

I am using a book called Mundane Astrology with three books. One each by H S Green, Raphael and C E O Carter.

Last edited by Opal; 06-13-2021 at 02:02 PM.
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Unread 06-13-2021, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post
What do you all think of Chiron be in the 4th, house of the working class?
Interesting, that the suffering of Chiron is to the workers.
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Unread 06-13-2021, 03:02 PM
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Re: US - a Uranian Country

Opal,

In this context the 2nd house is the monies of the US. 8th house would be monies of other countries.

Following up,

Tim
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