Natal Aspects pointing to a Liar/Manipulator/Cheater

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HeartOfFire

Member
Thoughts on aspects contributing to lying/cheating/manipulating?

I have compared various charts of some of the liars and cheaters that I've been fortunate to come across recently. Hard aspects in common are:

Mars/Mercury
Moon/Neptune
Moon/Mercury
Pluto/Mars
Mercury/Neptune (all the liars I know have these planets in aspect)
Venus/Uranus (cheaters with conjunction or square?)

I have attached the natal chart of one particular individual who seems to be the most secretive, lying person I've met. Thoughts on his chart?
 

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angelic

Active member
Just gonna brainstorm here:

1. Mercury-Jupiter-Neptune conjunction, he definitely expands the truth and is delusional about it. Although he has a vivid imagination, he probably gets lost in his own mind easily and can't help but lie. It's probably a bit like storytelling to him. Maybe he doesn't even realize he is doing it? He just starts talking and next thing he knows he is exaggerating the truth. Maybe in an attempt to make himself seem more interesting or more confident?

2. Venus conjunct Uranus, he definitely needs independence and freedom in relationships and can be a bit hot and cold. If he feels the least bit restrained he will act out and do something rash to distance himself. He is not good with close relationships.

3. Sun in the 12, he has identity/ego issues. Maybe he is secretive because he is unsure of who he even is or who he wants to project into the world. He seems to lack confidence at his core. He might even overcompensate for this low self esteem by acting out for attention. Like his Sun is crying out for help. It's like he's constantly questioning who he is. Maybe as a child he felt as if he wasn't seen or recognized properly so now he has a difficult time establishing an identity.

4. Saturn conjunct his Midheaven, he is very ambitious and cannot succeed without a lot of hard work. Like he wouldn't have opportunities just fall into his lap. Saturn is also sextile his Sun and rules his ascendant, so its a very important planet. Maybe he is so secretive/lies because he is embarrassed of his shortcomings? I don't know if he is successful in his career but I feel like he is very ambitious and motivated and could be very embarrassed is he doesn't attain success.

5. Mars conjunct Pluto, life or death situations. Extremely competitive. This is the kid who gets pissed off if he doesn't win that game of Monopoly. This is that grown up who will undermine others in order to attain success. He takes what he wants by force and by any means necessary. This can be very manipulative and can make others feel violated.It feels like he has trust issues and wants to establish dominance in his interactions from the get go. With Mars in Libra he wouldn't overtly do it but would rather do it passively. He may also have issues surrounding sex. Like power issues, seeing sex as a violating act rather than a intimate, unifying act between two people. If he could overcome this then he would go the opposite way and see sex as a deeply transformative experience. It's all on a spectrum.

6. Mercury sextile Pluto, manipulative speech. He knows what to say to get to the core of a person. Very intense speech and possibly dark thoughts. He has a natural understanding of human psychology and how to use this to his advantage if he chooses. He seems to have some power issues going on. Maybe he had issues with his dad when he was young? Just a guess

7. What I find interesting is his 11th house stellium and his North Node in the 5th house. This suggests that in a past life he had many friendships/a big network of peers; however, this is uncomfortable for him now. He feels uncomfortable with close relationships and does not like to let people close, which is perhaps why he is so secretive and prone to lying. He lies and is private to keep people away. He has difficulty putting others before himself. He has very little soul experience in regards to being close and intimate with others and incarnated in this life to learn this lesson. In this life he must learn how to establish a close and open relationship with another person. He must also learn to create his own identity, as the 5th house is also the house of creativity and identity. Once he establishes his true identity and gets a real sense of self he will have an easier time letting people in and being honest with them.

I get the feeling he has low self esteem and it scares him because he desperately wants to be powerful, so he lies or manipulates to dominate situations. He has identity issues and issues letting people close. He probably fears that, if he lets someone in, they will see all his shortcomings/see him for who he really is. He needs to develop a strong sense of self and be confident in his identity before he can have a healthy relationship with another person.

That's just what I get from the chart but I could be totally wrong lol I hope my post is somewhat easy to follow! Sorry if it's scattered :andy:
 
sibylline

sibylline

Well-known member
A good bit of the chart indicates someone who could believe in "gray areas" as far as reality is concerned. In particular that Mercury Rx conjunct Jupiter and Neptune is so much of a red flag. It's almost unbelievable the condition of that Mercury, even moreso if the time is close to accurate (it appears rounded) and that conjunction is on the 12th house cusp. Afflicted Pisces Moon and mutable predominance adapts itself to the circumstances and can lack allegiance to one way of being and thinking.
 
Kitchy

Kitchy

Banned
HeartOfFire said:
Thoughts on aspects contributing to lying/cheating/manipulating?

I have compared various charts of some of the liars and cheaters that I've been fortunate to come across recently. Hard aspects in common are:

Mars/Mercury
Moon/Neptune
Moon/Mercury
Pluto/Mars
Mercury/Neptune (all the liars I know have these planets in aspect)
Venus/Uranus (cheaters with conjunction or square?)

I have attached the natal chart of one particular individual who seems to be the most secretive, lying person I've met. Thoughts on his chart?
Click to expand...

First off - unless Brandon gave you permission to post his chart, you are conceptually violating a forum rule and that's generally bad. As for Brandon, who appears to be the most horrendous person on the planet for you today - he is not able to fairly represent himself in this public flogging you have initiated.

That being said - if you want to know what makes for general sociopathic people, you might consider studying psychology and social psychology and psychological astrology to discover more.

In the meantime, if Brandon hurt you - then you must ask in more direct terms, "how did he hurt you?" and then go from there.

Really - if you put this kind of stuff out there - as if you're writing it on a high school bathroom stall - ask what it is that is making you so mad in the situation? 99% of the time it's because we are played a fool.

That's when we have to look at Neptune in our own charts.
 
H

HeartOfFire

Member
angelic said:
Just gonna brainstorm here:

1. Mercury-Jupiter-Neptune conjunction, he definitely expands the truth and is delusional about it. Although he has a vivid imagination, he probably gets lost in his own mind easily and can't help but lie. It's probably a bit like storytelling to him. Maybe he doesn't even realize he is doing it? He just starts talking and next thing he knows he is exaggerating the truth. Maybe in an attempt to make himself seem more interesting or more confident?

2. Venus conjunct Uranus, he definitely needs independence and freedom in relationships and can be a bit hot and cold. If he feels the least bit restrained he will act out and do something rash to distance himself. He is not good with close relationships.

3. Sun in the 12, he has identity/ego issues. Maybe he is secretive because he is unsure of who he even is or who he wants to project into the world. He seems to lack confidence at his core. He might even overcompensate for this low self esteem by acting out for attention. Like his Sun is crying out for help. It's like he's constantly questioning who he is. Maybe as a child he felt as if he wasn't seen or recognized properly so now he has a difficult time establishing an identity.

4. Saturn conjunct his Midheaven, he is very ambitious and cannot succeed without a lot of hard work. Like he wouldn't have opportunities just fall into his lap. Saturn is also sextile his Sun and rules his ascendant, so its a very important planet. Maybe he is so secretive/lies because he is embarrassed of his shortcomings? I don't know if he is successful in his career but I feel like he is very ambitious and motivated and could be very embarrassed is he doesn't attain success.

5. Mars conjunct Pluto, life or death situations. Extremely competitive. This is the kid who gets pissed off if he doesn't win that game of Monopoly. This is that grown up who will undermine others in order to attain success. He takes what he wants by force and by any means necessary. This can be very manipulative and can make others feel violated.It feels like he has trust issues and wants to establish dominance in his interactions from the get go. With Mars in Libra he wouldn't overtly do it but would rather do it passively. He may also have issues surrounding sex. Like power issues, seeing sex as a violating act rather than a intimate, unifying act between two people. If he could overcome this then he would go the opposite way and see sex as a deeply transformative experience. It's all on a spectrum.

6. Mercury sextile Pluto, manipulative speech. He knows what to say to get to the core of a person. Very intense speech and possibly dark thoughts. He has a natural understanding of human psychology and how to use this to his advantage if he chooses. He seems to have some power issues going on. Maybe he had issues with his dad when he was young? Just a guess

7. What I find interesting is his 11th house stellium and his North Node in the 5th house. This suggests that in a past life he had many friendships/a big network of peers; however, this is uncomfortable for him now. He feels uncomfortable with close relationships and does not like to let people close, which is perhaps why he is so secretive and prone to lying. He lies and is private to keep people away. He has difficulty putting others before himself. He has very little soul experience in regards to being close and intimate with others and incarnated in this life to learn this lesson. In this life he must learn how to establish a close and open relationship with another person. He must also learn to create his own identity, as the 5th house is also the house of creativity and identity. Once he establishes his true identity and gets a real sense of self he will have an easier time letting people in and being honest with them.

I get the feeling he has low self esteem and it scares him because he desperately wants to be powerful, so he lies or manipulates to dominate situations. He has identity issues and issues letting people close. He probably fears that, if he lets someone in, they will see all his shortcomings/see him for who he really is. He needs to develop a strong sense of self and be confident in his identity before he can have a healthy relationship with another person.

That's just what I get from the chart but I could be totally wrong lol I hope my post is somewhat easy to follow! Sorry if it's scattered :andy:
Click to expand...






Wow thank you! All of this is spot on. And Mercury sextile Pluto with issues concerning his dad whom he has never met.
I appreciate you taking the time to clarify all of this for me!
 
B

BaoSanniang

Well-known member
I obviously haven't looked at the charts of everyone I know, but from the charts I've looked up I notice that I have at least some degree of difficulty relating to the thought / emotional processes of people who have their natal planets forming numerous aspects with the 3 outer planets. It's like there's a kind of energy in them I can't see or find myself tapping into, and from what I've noticed it more often than not creates difficulties in their own lives that are beyond the mundane physical needs or raw emotional needs. I don't have any aspects between natal planets and outer (Uranus, Neptune, Pluto) planets so I don't think it's that hard to stay grounded.

For example, people that have their natal planets forming aspects to Uranus / Neptune, especially the conjunction or the challenging aspects, tend to have emotional and thought processes I can't always keep up with or understand. These people may have very active and interesting personalities, but I feel there's always that part of them I find difficult, if not impossible to tap into. A number of natal planets aspecting Uranus, for example, gives them a sense of restlessness and a need to be different from the crowd. They're so restless and fiercely independent that I often feel it's gone too far. Moon-Uranus, Venus-Uranus, and / or Mars-Uranus men and women, unless there are mitigating factors, can be so unpredictable.

I've also noticed people with strong natal-Uranus connections in their birth chart (all aspects to a degree, but especially the conjunction and the hard aspects) feel a need to attach themselves to some greater cause that goes against the flow, and they can really love talking about it. I usually listen, but deep down I'm like "uhhhh.... why don't we just stick to this instead." They can be fun and interesting, yet so hard to pin down.

Natal-Neptune connections, I feel, also pose problems. Again, this is especially evident with the conjunction and the hard aspects. These people, I feel, can have visions of grandeur that persist as part of their character (and not just ideas that come and go in phases). These people are constantly searching for something that's "grander, greater, and better" to do with their own lives and sense of purpose. When that sense of purpose or connection with something bigger than themselves is not fulfilled, they can become deeply unhappy in one way or another. I suspect many artists have prominent connections between their natal planets and Neptune, or at least have a prominent Neptune. It looks like the stereotype of the "tortured artist" or "tortured writer" may have truth in it after all.

I don't know as much about Pluto's aspects to the natal planets, except that it has something to do with power and intensity.

What I can say about these people who have natal-Uranus and natal-Neptune connections (conjunct / challenging) that feature prominently in their chart is that sometimes I am actually a bit envious of them because they have a kind of force that I can only ever dream of having, and when tapped into it might lead to great talent of some kind. However, I also realize it's more often than not undesirable to trade security and stability for these greater abilities / talents / skills.

If I had to describe these people it would be that I'm simultaneously attracted to them, yet repulsed by them. I'm attracted to them because I feel like they have insight into the world and into the human condition that I am "missing", yet I am also repulsed by them because they're just so "out there" to the point where they might gloss over or entirely reject some of the more grounded, fundamental areas of life. I keep thinking these people might make reliable life companions if I can make them more down-to-earth and appreciative of the little things in life and having a routine, but then it's like keeping a bird in a cage because part of themselves will a part Ill never be able to fully access.
 
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Somna7H

Somna7H

Banned
angelic said:
5. Mars conjunct Pluto, life or death situations. Extremely competitive. This is the kid who gets pissed off if he doesn't win that game of Monopoly. This is that grown up who will undermine others in order to attain success. He takes what he wants by force and by any means necessary. This can be very manipulative and can make others feel violated.It feels like he has trust issues and wants to establish dominance in his interactions from the get go. With Mars in Libra he wouldn't overtly do it but would rather do it passively. He may also have issues surrounding sex. Like power issues, seeing sex as a violating act rather than a intimate, unifying act between two people. If he could overcome this then he would go the opposite way and see sex as a deeply transformative experience. It's all on a spectrum.
Click to expand...

No no your are joking.
It can't be.
Your are not pointing at me for sure. ;)
 
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