Ascendant more than just a mere mask? Can it actually overpower everything?

I can't tell you how many arguments I seen online about the importance of the Ascendant it makes me nauseous. A lot of people state they cannot believe the Sun Sign is the "real you" because their personality is almost exactly like their Ascendant. Even among professional astrologers, they seem divided on the Ascendant's role. Mainstream professionals insist the Sun Sign is the determining factor (some like Linda Goodman even state the "soul") and the Ascendant is just a first impression. Other astrologers state that the Sun is not important and is only general tendencies in life but the Ascendant is the most important placement in the chart. One of the top contributors of Yahoo Answers' Horoscopes section, Antares, has repeatedly stated the Ascendant is "You" and in ancient astrology, professional astrologers considered the Ascendant as the determining factor of the chart. Some translated texts I came across even state the Ascendant is the SOUL.

Having studied and interacted with a lot of people of a variety of charts and particularly having compared some people with similar patterns, I honestly believe the importance of the Ascendant really is configured towards the INDIVIDUAL. For a number of people I studied, the Ascendant is just a mask and once you get to know them all their Ascendant's traits are thrown off. For others, the Ascendant is the DOMINANT trait of their personality.

I know a Virgo with Sagittarius as the Ascendant. He is TRULY Saggie at the core and even if you lived with this Virgo for years (we share the same house to save expenses), you cannot see his Virgo Sun. About the only thing Virgonian about him is his tendency to arrange things neatly but other than that he is not Virgo. You cannot even see the Capricorn in him (Capricorn is his Moon Sign). In his case, I have no doubt the Sagittarius Ascendant is the DOMINANT factor and I would even go as far as saying that his soul must be Sagittarian XDD. His chart states Sagittarius as the dominant sign and his Jupiter has lots of aspects.

For other people the Ascendant is not a mere mask. Not the dominant placement but the Asc's traits are genuine parts of the person's personality even after you get beyond the mask and known the person for a while. Basically you can not only see the Sun Sign and Ascendant combined but also traits of the Moon as you interact with this person.

For others, they may have been more like their Ascendant but have grown into their Sun Sign. Wikipedia supports this with its article on the Ascendant, stating "people become more like their sun sign after around 29 years old, as they grow older and more confident and thus have less of a need to present a public face to others."

Some people are NEVER like their ascendant at all. When I first met them they were very much like their Sun Signs or even moon sign and there is now way in hell I could believe their Ascendant was of a sign that is completely different in personality from their Sun Sign when I calculated it. About the only accurate thing about the Ascendant was either their physical appearance and health.

For other people neither the ascendant nor sun nor moon match them at all but its the dominant signs that they are most like their personality.

For others its the inverse. To use myself as an example, I was the stereotypical Pisces male in almost every way for much of my childhood in teen years (with some Scorpio traits such as vindictive personality, tendency to hold grudges for insane periods, willingness to use physical violence to lash at others esp. if the person was trying to bully me, insane lustful tendencies, and a perverse fascination with wars and the military). After life-shattering experiences back in 2012 and more so recently this year, rather than shedding of my Ascendant, I actually grew even more and more like my Ascendant and now minus a few bad habits I'm gradually losing I am Scorpio at the core as far as my personality goes. Granted my chart states I am a Scorpio dominant 14.4% and Scorpio Pluto dominant 17.7% (with lots of very powerful aspects to Pluto) and those life-changing experiences were really rude wake-up calls (and they also activated the Capricorn dominance in me and made me grow more Capricornish) but my personal story is an example of how the Sun the overall factor in my personality but was gradually overtaken by the Ascendant.

Other astrological systems like the Vedic system, medieval astrology, and especially Hellenistic (ancient Greek) astrology all emphasize the Ascendant as the core of the personality. In fact the word Horoscopes originally meant in Greek word meaning "Watcher of the Hour" and the Ancient Greek who pioneered what is now natal astrology.

So my conclusion is that it varies from individuals depending not only on how the Ascendant is placed in the chart (esp. aspects to the Asc and its ruler and what planets are in the 1st house) but heavily on external factors too like upbringing, culture, physical affections, and life experiences (like in my case), and also transits. I would say the Asc. specifically configures to the individual himself in how powerful it becomes in the chart.

But I'd give far more credibility to ascendant than Sun Sign considering without hour of birth there is NO NATAL CHART and because for thousands of years it was the ascendant who astrologers described as "your zodiac sign" long before modern BS psychological astrology and Sun Sign astrology came int he late 1800s. Not to mention Sun even though its the most powerful planet is pretty useless without aspects and specific house placements and even serious modern astrologers such as Been There from Yahoo Answers state all it is represents is what you need to feel "self-fulfilled" and its practically USELESS in affecting your personality by itself. In fact Been There and other professional modern astrologers state Sun Sign doesn't really affect any specific aspect of your personality except desires.

The topic of Ascendants is one of the areas I have pondered with since my interest in astrology increased and deepened. I"ve come to sense that it is much more than an individual's physical appearance and the "mask" that we wear in front of the world. I think that it may function on two levels.

One, the characteristics of the personality which seem more trepidatious to me. Like your friend/roommate you used as an example, according to the Western Placidus system, I have the same sign placements as him - Virgo Sun, Sag Rising, Capricorn Moon. I do see the Sag/Virgoan traits in me. However, what I couldn't see was the Capricornian part. My feelings, emotions are neither cold nor detached; they're the opposite. I can be both expressively affectionate and warm, and emotional.

One day out of curiosity, I generated up a Traditional-Vedic chart and that system placed my rising in Scorpio and Moon in Sag. You know they place more emphasis on those signs than the Sun, and resonated with me. I see the Scorpio in me.

From appearing somewhat serious on the surface compared to what I'm really like, to not revealing every detail about myself instantly or randomly, observing what lies at the core of others, to the little to no tolerance for the superficial and arrogant, or the thoughts and tastes for intense experiences such as you mentioned (while younger). One diff. is that I'm less aggressive though than a lot of Scorps. I can attest too, that I've been through a number of emotional, mental and physical transformations. Even more so, in the last 2-3 years.

What I question about the different sign traits is, do they each have their own period being dominant (which I believe so,) or is it that they integrate (or are supposed to) into each other at some point, kind of like someone with DID? And if they don't because something is obstructing the process, then does that person never develop the full potential of their personality?

The other aspect about the Ascendant's function is that it could be the prominent influence that affects the events and circumstances of a person's life path to either experience a less challenging or a more challenging life, according to however the Sun, Moon and planets interact with it. My explanation may make it sound simplistic, but it's actually more involved and complex than that as I'm certain you know.

That leads to another issue I have thoughts about that I haven't come across information for - the day of the week. The ancients named the weekdays according to the seven planets. Does the ruler of the day have influence on the day we're born on as well? If so, how much and how does it increase or reduce the ASC and Sun?

I think you've answered your own question in that it all depends - what sign is on the ASC, what aspects does the ruler of the ASC make, where is the Sun, what aspects does it make, and so on. The answer to the question is yes, no, and maybe.
I'm a Gemini Sun with Merc, Venus and Jupiter also all in Gemini and most clustered in the 1st house. Most people who work with me and have for years would never suspect my Gemini personality that I only share those I'm close to. Why? Because I have Taurus in the ASC and Mars/Uranus/Pluto are all in Virgo and trine the ASC. But that's just me.
The ASC isn't just the "mask" you wear, or the image you put out to the world. It is also where you receive from the world - how the world influences you, where you take in other people's energy, opinions, positives and negatives, as well as what the Universe sends you. For people with a weak ASC or one negatively aspected, they are very susceptible to what the outside world thinks and says and they modify their behavior accordingly. They may also put up masks to keep the world at bay or to hide their own insecurity. Those with a strong ASC may not give one whit what the world thinks and choose which image they are going to put out, or what they are going to share.
The same goes for the Sun sign - it is the "core" you, modified by all the aspects to it. If your Sun is weak, your ASC may dominate or the outside world may dominate you instead, and you wear whatever mask people give you or you think will make them happy. If you have a strong Sun, you may choose how and to whom you express yourself, and a person may show you the Sun they want you to see and you may never be the wiser for it.

The final outcome of anything is dependent on its initial conditions. This is a maxim of modern scientific thought. It is a fundamental and universal truth.

The fate of the Universe itself was determined at the outset by the conditions prevailing at the Big Bang, and thus everything contained within our universe is subject to those same conditions.

The Ascendant is the Beginning...it defines, describes, prescribes Initial Conditions.

Jung said it another way: "Anything born in a given moment is of the nature of that moment." The Ascendant is "the moment of birth". It is the most individualized point in any horoscope, therefore most exactly defines "you".

It is your role in life, your outlook, describes your horizons (potentialities of development), is the interface between the internal "you" and the outer world -- and acts in both directions (projection and ingestion), thus building on itself (this explains our changes in personality over time.)

Side note to Darth -- From what you say in the OP opening this thread, there seems to be no dependable "interpretation" of a natal chart, and this would suggest that astrology is virtually without value because it cannot be relied upon to give consistently reliable results. When I find that I am "not getting it" (the chart and the thing or person I am looking at don't seem to hold a very close correspondence), I like to think the problem lies within me, that my understanding is deficient, because many years of studying astrology has convinced me that it is reliable; it works. And after further study and thought, I usually find this to have been the case.

My best guess is that you may be over-simplifying on the one hand, and failing to look at the chart as an integral whole on the other. Nothing in a horoscopic chart stands alone. I say "over-simplifying" to mean that we find Virgo on the Ascendant, refer to some textbook to give us the "meaning" of Virgo, and call it a day. We fail to look at the lord of Virgo...his house, sign, the condition of his lord (ruler of the sign he occupies), the aspects he beholds and many other things which considerably modify and individualize the expressions of Virgo. We don't incorporate the aspects to the Ascendant from other planets and give them their proper weight in the matter of personality. Also, we have not taken into account the relative power or prominence of other planets and points. The Ascendant is always of first importance in any chart, but quite often some planet some planet may be so highly emphasized, given such a predominant role in the life, that it is what stands out to the observer and the Ascendant is not so readily apparent. We might find two people with the exact same degree of Virgo rising, and expect that their "persona" will be nearly identical, but are surprized when they are not. This is due to all the factors, such as the one above, being quite different.

The Ascendant is far more than a "mask" (Jung's persona). If we take it as the Point of Beginnings, then it would seem logical to "enter" the horoscope (for purposes of interpretation) through the Ascendant -- begin at the Beginning. What we will find, in most cases, is that this portal leads us into the whole chart -- through rulerships, aspects, and many other chart factors. In general, we will need to look at almost every planet in the chart in order to fully delineate the Ascendant alone.

Somebody told me the ASC ruler actually plays the role claimed for the Sun. It is the developing ASC
On the other hand my capricorn Sun seems to be a distant ideal.I like to see people wearing suits,like in the city of London where the Banks are,but I dont wear suits.I just dont feel comfortable with them and I lack the discipline I yearn for(gemini rising Moon in pisces), I want to be respected(capricorn) actimg like a teenager.People finfd it hard to take me seriously.
I think the Sun is a fantasy and values we have at 18,what makes diferent from others.When you want to be diferent how do you act?
If its in Leo and Aries it is of utmost importance to you. I dont understand why some guys are happy just doing drugs,or why some have no ambition(thats my sun thinking)

socrates said:

Somebody told me the ASC ruler actually plays the role claimed for the Sun.

Click to expand...

Man, that makes a lot of sense. I'm a Gemini with ASC Scorpio and Cancer Mars (Scorpio Pluto). I'm hyper-sensitive to the point of being diagnosed with several mood disorders in the past and some social anxiety. I'm prone to emotional arguments at times (Mars influence naturally) in the form of intellectual manipulation (I suppose my Solar Gemini contributes for that). Others tend to make fun of my "crazy mood swings" and my oversensitivity, which aggravates me even more and causes me to withdraw from the public, or to someone that I trust and feel comfortable with. To be honest, in a lot of ways I feel like I'm a Cancer since I know emotions and know them with intensity (Scorpio ASC perhaps). Emotions and comfort are my primary motivation. Before I attempt a task, I always try to get myself in the "mood" first. Plus I'm very close to my mother, and she's everything to me. I've never been called "mama's boy" (my culture doesn't really look down on a man who is super close to his mother), but I wouldn't be too bothered even if I were labelled so, to be honest.

I do otherwise feel my Gemini Sun though... but it's more general. I'm rather scatterbrained and inconsistent. Also when I am able to open up I may go on at length expounding the nitty gritty of intellectual theoretical topics, and I have a reputation for being an "intellectual", which I don't like because I don't really feel that smart to be honest, and also I feel like it seems more like I'm being made fun of being the "know-it-all" (Cancer influence again).

Darth, your instincts are correct in determining that the strength of the ascendant will vary with the individual. As you progress through astrology, you will get a better feel for it as a work of synthesis.

Although I think the rising sign is a "mask" for some people (who think they would be incarcerated if people understood the "real them,") it is generally much stronger. The ascendant and first house show your body and outward personality. It shows how you come across to other people. And we can't settle here for pop-schlock descriptions. Each sign has an empowering and disempowering interpretation.

The sun indicates your core identity: your own sense of self. It may harmonize beautifully with the ascendant, be at odds with it, or simply not relate to it very closely. To see which it is, we have to look at aspects, notably sun-ascendant and sun-planet that rules the ascendant. (For example, with Virgo rising, we look to sun-Mercury.) Let's look at signs, too. Not the pop-schlock descriptions of static personality traits! Let's also think in terms of whether sun and Mercury (in the above example) might be in mutual reception, or have a third planet connecting them at their midpoint.

It is very important to look at any planets in the first house, and any planets aspecting the ascendant. A Virgo rising with Uranus square the ascendant or Uranus in the first house will be anything but the neat, tidy secretarial type!

And let's throw in the moon for good measure. I think a Cancer moon trumps the sun sign. If you think about it, a domiciled moon in Cancer would be the strongest planet in the chart unless the person had one or more other domiciled planets (such as sun in Leo.)

Some moons are a lot more emotionally detached than others, but everyone has feelings, and they will express themselves through the personality. If the moon has squares, oppositions, or conjunctions from troubling planets, it is hard for the person to keep his emotions on an even keel. In contrast, people with moon sextile or trine sun seem to have a better sense of self-confidence. (self=sun, confidence=moon.)

For the early Modernists (such a Charles Carter, Vivian Robson, etc), the "big three" (ie, central or core) chart elements were the ascendant+the Sun+the Moon, and for the earliest Hellenist astrologers, the Part of Fortune, which essentially is determined by the relationship of ascendant+Sun+Moon, was often used to begin the chart, the circle of houses, with (these were called "Fortuna" charts)-I have always followed this consideration (ascendant+Sun+Moon)when looking for the "core elements" in gneral natal chart delineation...