Can I pretend that this is a grand cross?

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burtonbran42

Member
Hey there! A while back, I realized that my natal chart contains a t-square, albeit a loose one, with Saturn (Aries 6'33 1st), Venus (Cancer 11'33 4th), and Jupiter (Capricorn 8'09 10th).

Recently, though, I started looking more deeply into Chiron and the Moon's nodes. My natal Chiron (Libra 8'38 7th) and the North Node (Libra 12'53 7th) would both complete the square and form a grand cross if I used a 6 degree (5 if I just use the North Node) orb.

I'm just not sure if Chiron or the North Node are generally factored into patterns like the grand cross, and even if they are, I don't know if my orbs are too loose!

What are your guys' thoughts? :)

astro_2gw_01_brandon_73028_56055_gif_56729.gif
 
K

Krewster

Well-known member
The looser you go with orbs and the more non-planets you use, the more your astro-self-labeling becomes a cherry-picked poem...

still embued with as much value (in your own process) as you perceive.
 
IleneK

IleneK

Premium Member
burtonbran42 said:
Hey there! A while back, I realized that my natal chart contains a t-square, albeit a loose one, with Saturn (Aries 6'33 1st), Venus (Cancer 11'33 4th), and Jupiter (Capricorn 8'09 10th).

Recently, though, I started looking more deeply into Chiron and the Moon's nodes. My natal Chiron (Libra 8'38 7th) and the North Node (Libra 12'53 7th) would both complete the square and form a grand cross if I used a 6 degree (5 if I just use the North Node) orb.

I'm just not sure if Chiron or the North Node are generally factored into patterns like the grand cross, and even if they are, I don't know if my orbs are too loose!

What are your guys' thoughts? :)
Click to expand...

The t-square in your chart is noteworthy, a key part of your astrological signature. And the orb is quite fine with less than a degree and half between Saturn and Jupiter, and with Jupiter only about 3 degrees from Venus. Pretty tight, pretty close orbs as far as I am concerned.

As I understand it, these kinds of configurations [the t-square, the grand trine or grand square] are to be comprised of actual planetary bodies. So that would exclude the lunar nodes, which are points of intersection between the orbits of planetary bodies, and not really bodies in themselves. Now Chiron is another matter, as it is a body, but many say it is not a traditional body.

That said, I will tell you that Chiron in my natal chart makes a t-square to my natal Sun-Moon square. And while Chiron may not be a traditional planetary body, and also, while its perceived effects could likely be explained by the my natal configuration of the 7 traditional bodies [excluding Uranus, Neptune and Pluto], I still looked at and considered the t-square with Sun Moon Chiron for a long time. And I think it was helpful for me for a period of time. The same goes for your Moon's nodes fitting right in there, since the lunar nodes are so significant, despite their not being actual bodies.

But ultimately what I suppose I am trying to say is that I probably would not call your configuration a grand square. I'd still call it a t-square, but I would study the configuration with Chiron and the nodes because there will be a lot of good information there for you, even if it doesn't fully qualify as a grand cross/square.

I do hope I haven't hopelessly confused the issue for you.

Very best,
 
B

burtonbran42

Member
Krewster said:
The looser you go with orbs and the more non-planets you use, the more your astro-self-labeling becomes a cherry-picked poem...

still embued with as much value (in your own process) as you perceive.
Click to expand...

Oh the condescension haha. Discovering the impact of both Chiron and the lunar nodes completely changed the way that I view astrology. The day I started looking into those lesser known aspects marks the transition of my astrological studies from strictly mundane and personality-related material to a more transcendental, karmic orientation, which I'm sure you know is a major turning point.

While I will be the first to admit that I have indulged in favorable astro-self-labelling, that is not what this post was about, and I'm sorry that you interpreted it as such. Rather, I was hoping to gain some insight from an external force as to whether that pattern could be considered significant and if it's even proper to use the nodes and Chiron in major aspect patterns. However, it's probably my fault for wording my questions poorly, and I do apologize for that.

I appreciate your input.
 
B

burtonbran42

Member
IleneK said:
The t-square in your chart is noteworthy, a key part of your astrological signature. And the orb is quite fine with less than a degree and half between Saturn and Jupiter, and with Jupiter only about 3 degrees from Venus. Pretty tight, pretty close orbs as far as I am concerned.

As I understand it, these kinds of configurations [the t-square, the grand trine or grand square] are to be comprised of actual planetary bodies. So that would exclude the lunar nodes, which are points of intersection between the orbits of planetary bodies, and not really bodies in themselves. Now Chiron is another matter, as it is a body, but many say it is not a traditional body.

That said, I will tell you that Chiron in my natal chart makes a t-square to my natal Sun-Moon square. And while Chiron may not be a traditional planetary body, and also, while its perceived effects could likely be explained by the my natal configuration of the 7 traditional bodies [excluding Uranus, Neptune and Pluto], I still looked at and considered the t-square with Sun Moon Chiron for a long time. And I think it was helpful for me for a period of time. The same goes for your Moon's nodes fitting right in there, since the lunar nodes are so significant, despite their not being actual bodies.

But ultimately what I suppose I am trying to say is that I probably would not call your configuration a grand square. I'd still call it a t-square, but I would study the configuration with Chiron and the nodes because there will be a lot of good information there for you, even if it doesn't fully qualify as a grand cross/square.

I do hope I haven't hopelessly confused the issue for you.

Very best,
Click to expand...

Thank you so much; your response was exactly what I was looking for! I wasn't sure if points like the nodes were considered in those configurations at all, and you definitely clarified that for me. I can definitely see the influence of all of the points working together come into play in my life, but as you said, it's hard to tell if it's due to that configuration in itself or other aspects of the chart.

Once again, thank you so much. :)
 
F

Frisiangal

Well-known member
Hi,
Any astrologer who treats Chiron as a reputable astrological object will include it in aspects.
For me, Chiron makes up the cardinal grand cross.

I would not consider you to have a Mars-Jupiter or Mars-Neptune opposition. This is particularly interesting because Mars is ruler of Aries in which your 1st house SN-Saturn is placed. So, how easy or difficult is it for you to relate to and consider others, make decisions and compromises towards them (Libra in 7th)? Or, do you think that others do not consider you as an equal? How you relate to such circumstances, and/or any 'wounding effect' they have upon you, can say a lot about whether Chiron works as part of the grand cross.

I noticed on another thread that you mentioned the Black Moon Lilith.
I'd also include aspects to it, meaning you have a T-square between Moon-Uranus and MEAN Black Moon Lilith in the 5th house. The MEAN says much about the images from childhood.
Could the one configuration play a part on the effect of the other?:wink:

TRUE seems to make its presence felt more in adulthood. You have TRUE BML conjunct Sun in the 6th house.
Sun is semi-square Chiron.
 
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K

Krewster

Well-known member
Thanks for your civility...​
​
Frankly, I didn’t look past your 5 degree orbed Ven 90 Sat to compose my response (since some years back I had to reduce the acceptable orb for squares down to 3-ish degrees in order to accomodate about 40 minor aspects without lots of confusing overlappings among aspects).​
​
Though even if you willingly reject minors (and so can use larger orbs with the remaining 5 major aspects), wouldn’t you still want to regularly assign % weightings to each of your aspects? I assume that if you did, you’d quickly focus mostly just on those with more than, say, 60% strength, instead of those with only 20% or less strength.​
​
It is just math/goemetry, unless direct observations of personally known natives’ behavior/experiences “prove” for you that, e.g., you can stretch allowable orbs to accomodate a config that wants to bridge the gap(s). An attractive theory for those who only have 5 aspects to play with but I’m not finding correltion in the field.​
​
 
B

burtonbran42

Member
Frisiangal said:
Hi,
Any astrologer who treats Chiron as a reputable astrological object will include it in aspects.
For me, Chiron makes up the cardinal grand cross.

I would not consider you to have a Mars-Jupiter or Mars-Neptune opposition. This is particularly interesting because Mars is ruler of Aries in which your 1st house SN-Saturn is placed. So, how easy or difficult is it for you to relate to and consider others, make decisions and compromises towards them (Libra in 7th)? Or, do you think that others do not consider you as an equal? How you relate to such circumstances, and/or any 'wounding effect' they have upon you, can say a lot about whether Chiron works as part of the grand cross.

I noticed on another thread that you mentioned the Black Moon Lilith.
I'd also include aspects to it, meaning you have a T-square between Moon-Uranus and MEAN Black Moon Lilith in the 5th house. The MEAN says much about the images from childhood.
Could the one configuration play a part on the effect of the other?:wink:

TRUE seems to make its presence felt more in adulthood. You have TRUE BML conjunct Sun in the 6th house.
Sun is semi-square Chiron.
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for your input! Your response was extremely enlightening.

Where you asked about my relation to others, I've certainly had to put forth a lot of conscious effort to integrate the lessons of Libra into my life. From a young age, I've possessed a sort of obnoxious self-sufficiency and self-imposed penchant for isolation, which I feel is illustrated by both the South Node and retrograde Saturn in Aries/1st house. I also feel that most of the wounds I've acquired in this lifetime come directly from personal relationships, which is illustrated by Chiron in Libra/7th house. As far as the relationship between Saturn and Chiron, things are not quite so clear. It would make sense to consider the opposition, though, because I feel that my bouts of Saturnian isolation hit most strongly after a wound is inflicted through social circumstances (Chiron). I had never though of it that way before; Thank you so much for pointing that out!

I had never noticed the T-square between the Moon, mean Lilith, and Uranus! I will have to study it more thoroughly, but at first glance it fits very nicely into the story of my childhood!
 
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