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Aspects & configurations Discuss here about natal chart aspects and configurations.


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  #1  
Unread 11-01-2007, 08:55 AM
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Venus and Saturn

The great astrologer C E O Carter considered the favorable aspects of Venus and Saturn to be the best possible of all the major aspects, as did Alan Leo.

At the same time, Venus square Saturn or especially in opposition is undoubtedly very difficult for relationships, morbidly so, ocurring too often in the charts of widows and widowers. The conjunction seems to be extremely powerful and is extremely successful in a material sense, but it kills off the partner.

The reason Venus and Saturn aspects are so important is that they add ballast to the life, deepen the nature, and are less flighty or superficial than any other Venus aspect. They enable the person to carefully and successfully steer through the turbulance of life, even in square, although with the square there is usually sadness and separation.

Just wondered if anyone else has a comment or two about this important aspect.

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Unread 11-01-2007, 10:15 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

While certainly adding a great contribution to astrology, charles carter didn't add in the influence of the newly discovered pluto, not to mention chiron, so maybe it would be wise to study these saturn/venus aspects with this in mind.
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Unread 11-01-2007, 11:56 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Wayne penner, I feel I must clarify what you have said about Alan Leo's interpretation of venus/saturn aspects....
He wrote: " The conjunction (of venus and saturn) is partly good and partly bad and exhibits influence and characteristics from both:venus benefiting saturn,while saturn impedes venus" (my italics)

Leo describes the conjunction of saturn and venus as being "sensual, sad, variable,callous, rude morose, greedy pernicious, or perverse"

He describes venus and saturn in trine or sextile to one another as being:"of calm and steadfast disposition, gentle but persevering and capable of enduring much".

He describes venus and saturn square or oppositional as being:" sensual, unjust, parsimonious, hostile covetous,jealous,exacting,weak,imprudent"
Obviously the effect of saturn/venus connections would be greatly influenced by the signs and houses they occupy at the time of *connecting*.

William Lilly clearly said that Venus and Saturn are not friends at all, as he considered that Saturn was a complete and utter malefic which destroyed all good brought by the benefics.
In a natal chart aspects between venus and saturn will manifest much differently compared to the effect of transits, as venus is a fast mover...
Modern astrology gravitates toward *trying to see the positive side of malefic planets*. I guess it just comes down to which *authority* one takes recourse..Cheers, Lillyjgc
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Unread 11-01-2007, 03:16 PM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

wayne, according to here, CEO Carter doesn't seem too gung ho about Venus and Saturn in general:

http://www.digthatcrazyfarout.com/ca...rter_Venus.htm

Quote:
Venus with Saturn is by no means an indication of happiness,
for the affections will seldom flow easily and naturally, though
there may be much devotion to a small number of objects,
especially within the family circle. But it tends to discontent
and disappointment in the affectional sphere, and even to
eventual separation and estrangement. Some have called Venus
square Saturn the saddest aspect, in itself, of all. It can be
self-righteous and, as the Scotch say, unco' guid, but it is likely
at least to be constant and consistent in its likes and dislikes.

The late Maud Margessori, in her series Aspects in Venus, gives
under this heading:
Steep me in poverty to the very lips.-Shakespeare.
The long pedigree of toil.-Longfellow.
The unconquerable pang of despised love.-Wordsworth.
There is no pleasure without a tincture of bitterness.-Hafiz.

So it is evident that this careful observer of planetary action
thought this contact a sorrowful one. Those with it have as a
role little of the gay or playful about them; they are prone to
take things very seriously.

Last edited by Yoi; 11-01-2007 at 03:20 PM.
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Unread 11-01-2007, 03:17 PM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

in case of princess diana, ven is trine to sat. still lots of problems in relationship. here ven square uranus spoiled everything. one must take a look at all aspects than focus on one alone
ramchandani
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Unread 11-01-2007, 07:21 PM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Just a couple of points.

I really started this thread to get a feel for what people thought about this particular aspect, which I think is fundamental in that it always seems to affect the character. Some aspects seem to affect the fortunes more than character, for example Venus and Uranus, and Moon and Pluto.

Alan Leo, in "How to judge a nativity" writes of the benefic aspects of Venus and Saturn, "Modest, retiring, chaste, careful, sincere, frugal, unobtrusive, constand, faithful".
So I was talking about the effects on the character mainly. It is probably favorable for friendship and gives and receives great loyalty, even in square. It is less favorable for marriage, even by trine, but again Carter mentioned that there is the possibility of great happiness and mutual love.
He also wrote, of the trine and sextile, that, "there is the possibility of considerable spiritual beauty born of hardship ..."

Carter stated that the Venus Saturn conjunction was not unlike the evil aspects.
Any aspect seems to be wholly beneficial for business and finances but especially the conjunction, witness John D Rockerfeller (who was the richest man in the world in his day), Bill Gates, Al Capone (who at one point was making $100 million a year in 1930's dollars), Donald Trump, and Yoko Ono who managed and then inherited John Lennon's huge estate.

Warren Buffet has a quintile, and the richest Indian in the world L Mittal has a Trine. Larry Ellison, who founded Oracle and who is now worth $21 billion has a sextile. It is perhaps not surprising that the aspect occurs repeatedly in the charts of wealthy people, although Saturn is probably always important in the charts of those who manage to retain wealth.

On Carter and Pluto, my recollection is that he didn't write much, but then neither did anyone else up until the 70's or so, and he died in 1968 I think. The only quote I have is, "It is too early to speak of Pluto. This is a planet upon the nature of which I maintain an open mind. It has, like the proverbial dog, received a bad name, perhaps unjustly."
I don't think Carter paid any attention to the asteroids although of course he was aware of them. In fact the use of asteroids seems to be more of an American phenomenon than a British one - I knew many astrologers in England and cannot recall anyone who used them.

On Princess Diana, it is certainly true that her relationships went wrong, but it wasn't just Venus Uranus but the T-square involving the Moon. You might also note the Jupiter/Saturn transits in Libra on the day she was married (29 July 1981) were most certainly unfavorable.
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Unread 11-02-2007, 04:50 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

I have Saturn square Venus--but I also have Saturn trine Jupiter. Relationships can be difficult but I do not give up hope when it comes to love.

-Cheers.
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Unread 11-02-2007, 05:16 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Some things to think about regarding the conjunction:

What is the orb?

Is it applying or separating?

Is the conjunction in the same sign?

What house is the conjunction in?

What other aspects are there to Saturn and Venus?

I'm about to express more than a little anger now.

I am VERY happily married. The idea that I am more likely to be a widower because I have this aspect I find to be extremely troubling. Extremely troubling.

Fortunately, I have many years of experience in astrology, so I know better than to freak out when I read such things.

Other people, however, who are new to astrology, might easily be very frightened.

"Oh, I have Venus/Saturn conjunct. That must mean I will always be unhappy, terribly serious, no sense of humor, and I'm probably going to lose my wife/husband long before I die. I'm doomed."

God, I dislike this kind of astrology. I really hate it.

Gaer
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Unread 11-02-2007, 05:38 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by gaer
Some things to think about regarding the conjunction:

What is the orb?

Is it applying or separating?

Is the conjunction in the same sign?

What house is the conjunction in?

What other aspects are there to Saturn and Venus?

I'm about to express more than a little anger now.

I am VERY happily married. The idea that I am more likely to be a widower because I have this aspect I find to be extremely troubling. Extremely troubling.

Fortunately, I have many years of experience in astrology, so I know better than to freak out when I read such things.

Other people, however, who are new to astrology, might easily be very frightened.

"Oh, I have Venus/Saturn conjunct. That must mean I will always be unhappy, terribly serious, no sense of humor, and I'm probably going to lose my wife/husband long before I die. I'm doomed."

God, I dislike this kind of astrology. I really hate it.

Gaer
Well it appears there is something called reality, which is the external reflection of inner life.

Once again I quote Carter (from The Astrological Aspects), "Finally I hope that nothing that follows will distress the reader. It is useless to speak as if such an aspect as Mars square Uranus is as pleasant a companion as, say, Mercury conjunction Venus. Science must be frank. Scientists must be courageous and prepared to face facts ..."

You might also consider that inharmonious Venus Saturn aspects are often extremely troubled. If people are frightened by astrology perhaps they ought not study it.

Last edited by wayne penner; 11-02-2007 at 06:14 AM.
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Unread 11-02-2007, 05:55 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

I know what you mean about certain astrological ideals Gaer. Whats more imprtant in counselling astrology is, how sensitive the clients might be experiencing personality descriptions sometimes. Whether the person is ok and good about whatever potential represented in their chart is outlining.

I hear what you are saying and about your dislike. There is nothing wrong with having a Venus Saturn in my estimation.

Best

Kingsley
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Unread 11-02-2007, 06:25 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingsley
I know what you mean about certain astrological ideals Gaer. Whats more imprtant in counselling astrology is, how sensitive the clients might be experiencing personality descriptions sometimes.
It's a very different thing to be sitting face-to-face with someone who is asking for guidance. Even then, I believe 100% that the number one responsiblity of an astrologer who is acting as a guide is to never point out problems or weaknesses without having an answer.

A very wise astrologer gave me great help with this "problem" when I was about 30 years old. She pointed out to me that I "guarded" myself by pushing people away, afraid of being hurt, and that the loneliness I felt was actually coming from me.

Planets don't cause anything. They just reflect who we are, in an utterly mysterious way, and they map out areas in which we need to work, to improve.

I'm not going to go any farther with my own personal experiences, but I will finish by saying that this conjunction definitely showed a problem, a weakness, and one I've worked very hard to turn into a strength.

The thing that set me off was the claim that the Saturn/Venus conjunction is common in the charts of people who lose their mates.

Sorry, for THIS I want to see proof. I want to see a thousand charts or more of people who have lost their wives/husbands or partners, prematurely, and I want to see evidence that this aspect causes premature death of a partner more often than for those whose charts do not have it.
Quote:
I hear what you are saying and about your dislike. There is nothing wrong with having a Venus Saturn in my estimation.
I certainly think it suggests a challenge. There are aspects and positions I see in charts that make me extremely uneasy, but I will never come out and state my suspicions/hunches/intuition unless it is brought up by the "native" AND I have personal experience about how to go about turning a challenge, no matter how great, into a victory!

g
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  #12  
Unread 11-02-2007, 07:56 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

It is unfortunate that the evil aspects of Venus and Saturn cause considerable difficulty in marriage. It is actually the worst possible aspect for intimate relationships, and if you really can't accept this I understand - it must be a very difficult aspect to experience personally given that it usually is demanding, critical and severe on others.

The square seems to be the most agressive in destroying marriage, and then the opposition and then the conjunction. The trine and sextile are favorable but the slightest affliction can cause a "tipping point" so to speak that causes suspicion and distrust and eventual separation. All aspects of Venus and Saturn would appear to indicate fated alliances that in some way or other fail to truly fulfill the inner yearnings of Venus.

Note that separation simply removes the partner, by design or by death. In cases where this does not happen the 7th, 11th and Jupiter will be prominent in some way. Favorable Sun Moon aspects and especially a favorable Luna seems to save relationships.

What you might consider is that the reason so many Venus/Saturn marriages fail is because of jealousy, continual separations forced by circumstances, and most importantly disagreements over finances. Venus Saturn squares are inconsistent in using good judgement on finances, sometimes being overly frugal, waging war over household expenditures. Sometimes there is a gradual separation of interest over time so that the couple slowly drifts apart.

We can watch "pretend" marriages in public, like those between Hillary and Bill Clinton, or FDR and Eleanor for example, or Hitler and Eva Braun, Cheri and Tony Blair. These are simple business partnerships only, useful politically but lacking the warm intimacy of Venus.

Last edited by wilsontc; 11-04-2007 at 06:00 AM.
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Unread 11-02-2007, 09:19 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne penner
It is unfortunate that the evil aspects of Venus and Saturn cause considerable difficulty in marriage. It is actually the worst possible aspect for intimate relationships, and if you really can't accept this I understand - it must be a very difficult aspect to experience personally given that it usually is demanding, critical and severe on others.
You have implied that the aspect in my own chart, a chart which (by the way) is available for anyone here to look at, is an "evil" aspect. You are also implying that it is likely that there is considerable difficulty in my marriage.

I repeat: any aspect must be considered in the context of the whole chart. I'm certain that the majority of people in this forum would agree with that last statement!

Gaer
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Last edited by wilsontc; 11-04-2007 at 06:01 AM.
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Unread 11-02-2007, 10:28 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Wayne, I'm not sure how you can possibly make these claims!
"..the reason why...so many venus, saturn marriages fail is because of jealousy....etc"
How does *jealousy* enter into a venus/Saturn...What if its in Virgo for instance? Maybe the couple would run a healing retreat! You just can't get away with these outrageous generalisations that truly can't be substantiated..Where is your evidence? If you reply by quoting yet another source to back yourself up, i hope you can choose a more convincing one than CEO Carter.
Here we have, on the forum, a person who actually has the aspect.Gaer.If he says his marriage is happy, who are you to smugly suggest that he just doesn't know how bad it really is....which is what you implied.
I have the aspect too, but mine has a wide orb- Certainly William Lilly would have interpreted it as a conjunction...and in the same sign.
It matters what house it is in.
It matters what other aspects are involved.
It matters what sign it is in.
That's why it can't be said truthfully that having such and such a conjunction will result in any specific outcome.
I have experienced a relationship in which my venus was square another's saturn..We couldn't be together because of his duty to his children who lived interstate...See what I mean? It doesn't mean we had a cold relationship, or that we were unkind to one another.What it meant in that situation is that personal love had to be sacrificed in order for parental love to prevail.
I doubt that venus/saturn aspects are *the worst* aspect for intimate relationships: Try mars opposite uranus. Try Saturn square pluto. Try mars square the sun/or moon....I can think of heaps of aspects in synastry that often result in a broken relationship...and not from *hearsay*- from charts I have accumulated, over the years.
Wayne if you keep making these ridiculous unsubtantiable statements as if they are *facts* no-one on this forum will take you at all seriously.
De-bunking.
Lillyjgc
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Unread 11-02-2007, 10:42 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Venus being transited or progressed by Saturn for an engagement or wedding is regarded as an image of a lasting relationship.
Saturn & Venus combinations by synastry in married couples is also quite common

Venus & Saturn together in a natal chart tho presents a different story.
Some say it takes the ardour out of romance but in reality is often an image of Venus herself not being valued in the persons family or by the person themselves.
In other words it can indicate a possibility of some self esteem issues. Could indicate not valuing the feminine within oneself or in women.

I was interested to read once that Saturn Venus frequently appears in the charts of prostitutes. But also it can appear in the chart of people who are not very interested in romance or the opposite sex.

But its not all gloomy as people seem to grow into their Saturn aspects. After the 1st Saturn return we often make friends with our Saturn aspects to a personal planet & utilize it in a way which benefits us positively.
For instance it can become discrimination in love or good at investing money / prudent saver or investor etc

Then when we have our second saturn return we can actually see the rewards of learning to positively use a saturn aspect.
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Unread 11-02-2007, 12:56 PM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

I have venus square saturn. Venus in 5th in aqua and saturn in 3dt in scorpio. My 5. house is in capricorne and aquarius.

Yes, I have problem with relationships...or its better to say I didnt have relationships. It's not that I'm not interstead in opposite sex...it's just... I'm too shynee and reserved.
I think that girls with venuse square saturn arent cold...they just need more time to relax and to open themselves to someone.

oh great, I didnt knew that that is bad aspect for marriage?!
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Unread 11-02-2007, 04:43 PM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

I have Venus square Saturn.

In my case, it meant I was in general attracted to older men (I had a boyfriend who was 33 years older than me; now we are friends, he is my philosophy teacher -- Venus squares Saturn in 9th house in my chart, and trines jupiter ), and never engaged in any physical intimacy if I didn't see it as a meaningful relationship, with love. I spent most of my life alone, especially teenage years, which was my own choice. Being in a relationship with people I had little in common was absolutely impossible to me, and I didn't see much problem in being alone, altho I felt the pressure to be like everybody else and go out and date anyone, etc...... I didn't bend to that, altho I would sometimes wonder "what is wrong with me?"

Venus trines Jupiter in 7th house in my chart, which gave me great relationships till now (few ones), including people who would later turn out to be my friends (Venus in 11th house). As always, the whole chart must be considered, not an aspect alone.

I met my husband, and things in my life turned 180 degrees. It is a very loving relationship, very strong, with intense physical intimacy. I moved in with him a fortnight later. Maybe due to the great aspects between our Venus (sextile) and the two Mars in tight conjunction (1 degree orb in capricorn). My Jupiter trines his sun and Venus, etc..... So, a relationship is the outcome of two charts connected, and not of one single aspect in one single chart.

I am conscious of the effects of Saturn squaring venus in my relationship. There are challenges everyday (isn't this what happens in all relationships?). I had to abandon a life of comfort and wealth to be with him, but I did it in the blink of an eye, and confronted my family to do it. So, the aspect doesn't automatically turn someone into a cold, calculating and greedy person. It might simply mean you will have to be strong and determined to be in a relationship and make concessions and some sacrifices; the chances to grow are abundant.

If I (or he) will be a widower, who could say? I find it pretty difficult (impossible, actually) to foresee death in a chart. I am not afraid of death, and I don't think it is the end. Everything happens for a reason, and in its due time, and that's what I learnt from astrology so far.

No one is doomed to be alone just because of a strong venus-saturn aspect. The aspect might appear in all sorts of fashion and those depend on the whole chart.
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Unread 11-02-2007, 10:21 PM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by enigmas
I have venus square saturn. Venus in 5th in aqua and saturn in 3dt in scorpio. My 5. house is in capricorne and aquarius.

Yes, I have problem with relationships...or its better to say I didnt have relationships. It's not that I'm not interstead in opposite sex...it's just... I'm too shynee and reserved.
I think that girls with venuse square saturn arent cold...they just need more time to relax and to open themselves to someone.

oh great, I didnt knew that that is bad aspect for marriage?!
This statement hits very close to home for me, because I too have Venus square Saturn in my Natal chart. I have Venus in Pisces[5 house] square Saturn in Gemini[8 house]. I am very shy, and have difficulties in opening up to people, especially men. I am very cautious when it comes to the male species. I have had very few relationships, but the few I have had, lasted for a long time. I am very devoted, and don't give up on those that I love easily. I do believe that this aspect has played a role in my insecurities, and sometimes I feel all alone in this world.
I do come across as an ice-queen sometimes when a man approaches me..but, it's just a defense mechanism...I don't want to get hurt flings don't interest me. It's either all, or NOTHING. The relationship has to be something of substance..if not, i'd rather be alone.
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Unread 11-02-2007, 10:35 PM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by pisceskitty
I don't want to get hurt flings don't interest me. It's either all, or NOTHING. The relationship has to be something of substance..it not, i'd rather be alone.
Pisceskitty,

I could have written those words.

When I was still fairly young, I had a couple relationships that did not work out, and those were very painful to me. I decided, "Never again."

It was ironic, since all my friends came to me to discuss their romance problems. I was considered the quiet, stable guy. One of my close friends joked that I might as well have been a monk, which is especially amusing because I have absolutely zero connection to any organized religion (or organized whatever).

When I met my wife, we started out as friends only (at least in my mind), and when everything else came with it (all the intimacy), it worked out perfectly for us. If physical chemistry works out in addition to a deep friendship (sharing of so many important things), I think you have the whole package.

By the way, my wife has Saturn square Moon. Our feelings about people are very similar.

My point is that such hard aspects (and Saturn square Moon is also a difficult one) may be difficult, but it isn't the end of the world—or romance.

g
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Unread 11-02-2007, 11:40 PM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

I have no interest in peoples' personal lives and I would gently suggest this is not a forum to discuss whether or not one's marriage is happy. I have said nothing about individuals, and in fact I am more interested in discussing the astrology of the aspect, not whether or not one happens to be happily married or not.

That is probably a subject for general chat, or perhaps a psychology forum.

It is simply a fact that the aspect is generally unfortunate for intimate relationships and especially marriage.

Modern "feel good" astrology always seems to talk about how everything is positive even though serious problems in life, in finances, in marriage, with children and so forth actually happen. There are some external matters you can do nothing about - all you can do is adjust your attitude toward difficult circumstances. You cannot make someone feel other than they do, and often you cannot do anything about material losses due to others.

These are all in the realm of Venus and Saturn, even by good aspect. And I use the terms "good" and "bad" or "benific" and "evil" for convenience only.

I would add that the evil aspects of Venus and Saturn do heighten sensitivity so that destructive attitudes such as jealousy, which again is in the realm of Venus and Saturn do in fact develop. I am referring to the "mean streak" that is so often observable in the charts of those with the affliction.

I would hope that astrologers are able to be objective about astrology. If you really think that such an aspect as Venus square Saturn is somehow easily overcome I simply have to wonder if you are talking about astrology ...

Last, on C E O Carter, while I appreciate that some modern astrologers may not consider him a great authority, in America anyway, he is in my opinion the most erudite astrological authority of the 20th Century. You are certainly free to disagree with my position, but before doing so I would ask you to familiarize yourself with his two best books. once again in my opinion, The Astrological Aspects and Essays on the Foundations of Astrology.

Last edited by wayne penner; 11-02-2007 at 11:42 PM.
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Unread 11-02-2007, 11:53 PM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by pisceskitty
This statement hits very close to home for me, because I too have Venus square Saturn in my Natal chart. I have Venus in Pisces[5 house] square Saturn in Gemini[8 house]. I am very shy, and have difficulties in opening up to people, especially men. I am very cautious when it comes to the male species. I have had very few relationships, but the few I have had, lasted for a long time. I am very devoted, and don't give up on those that I love easily. I do believe that this aspect has played a role in my insecurities, and sometimes I feel all alone in this world.
I do come across as an ice-queen sometimes when a man approaches me..but, it's just a defense mechanism...I don't want to get hurt flings don't interest me. It's either all, or NOTHING. The relationship has to be something of substance..it not, i'd rather be alone.
Well it is a difficult aspect and lonliness and a sense of isolation often occurs I think. One difference between the good and bad aspects is that those with the trine and sextile may not be quite as sensitive or protective of themselves as those with the hard aspects, although the good aspects seem to be more resillient and less brittle emotionally. The square and quincunx does undoubtedly produce great loyalty and respect for that characteristic in others, but it is an "all or nothing" aspect and sometimes inclined to go to extremes against those who who are preceived as hostile, the feeling of being "ill used".

Once again, any help from Moon or Jupiter, or sign placement, or elevation, will help alleviate the problem of lonliness. Otherwise, the development of a good sense of humor will always fend off the worst of Saturn afflictions to the personal planets, at least from the point of view of character.
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Unread 11-03-2007, 12:00 AM
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne penner
I have no interest in peoples' personal lives and I would gently suggest this is not a forum to discuss whether or not one's marriage is happy.
Quote:
At the same time, Venus square Saturn or especially in opposition is undoubtedly very difficult for relationships, morbidly so, ocurring too often in the charts of widows and widowers. The conjunction seems to be extremely powerful and is extremely successful in a material sense, but it kills off the partner.
In light of the remarks you made, I have every point out that your analysis above is not accurate for me and could easily frigthen anyone new to astrology into thinking that if s/he has this aspect, s/he is likely to loose a spouse, even if the relationship is a happy one.

Again, you are ignoring other factors, including other aspects to both Venus and Saturn as well as aspects in general, house placement, etc.

This is not chat. It is a serious discussion of the relationship of two planets and what it means in natal charts. Wayne, it is unfair to say that a discussion does not belong here merely because other people disagree with you.
Quote:
I would add that the evil aspects of Venus and Saturn do heighten sensitivity so that destructive attitudes such as jealousy, which again is in the realm of Venus and Saturn do in fact develop. I am referring to the "mean streak" that is so often observable in the charts of those with the affliction.
By your definition, I am so "afflicted". You would conclude from my chart that I am a jealous person (I am not) and that I have a "mean streak" (I don't).

g
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  #23  
Unread 11-03-2007, 12:31 AM
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wayne penner wayne penner is offline
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Re: Venus and Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by gaer
In light of the remarks you made, I have every point out that your analysis above is not accurate for me and could easily frigthen anyone new to astrology into thinking that if s/he has this aspect, s/he is likely to loose a spouse, even if the relationship is a happy one.

Again, you are ignoring other factors, including other aspects to both Venus and Saturn as well as aspects in general, house placement, etc.

This is not chat. It is a serious discussion of the relationship of two planets and what it means in natal charts. Wayne, it is unfair to say that a discussion does not belong here merely because other people disagree with you.

By your definition, I am so "afflicted". You would conclude from my chart that I am a jealous person (I am not) and that I have a "mean streak" (I don't).

g
Generally speaking, I would think Venus cannot stand up well to Saturn by conjunction. Saturn will always dominate, except in a very weak and unintegrated chart, in which case the conjunction will be a very serious affliction indeed.

Obviously when I see people like Bill Gates and Donald Trump with the conjunction I cannot hold that the aspect is wholly evil - in fact, as I have already stated, I believe it can be extremely successful in a material sense, but focus on business will often impact the sphere of Venus. For example I haven't the slightest idea of how successful or otherwise Bill Gates' marriage is, but I know that he is separated from his wife and children at least half the year while he, and she, travel to deal with their numerous business and charitiable responsibilities. Similarly with Donald Trump and others I have mentioned.

Over the years I have known many people with the conjunction. They all have exhibited a great sense of responsibility, a serious and focused attitude. The problem is that Saturn is too strong for Venus, so that Venus' realm is stunted, and this is where the issues of personal affectional relationships are centered.

Also, to reiterate this point because it is in my view important, if people are not willing to accept the truth, and sometimes the truth is extremely ugly, they should not study astrology. So I take no concern regarding newcomers to astrology. It is an extremely deep and serious study, and we all have to face some of the less pleasant features of our charts, although I do believe astrology helps us understand why things happen, even if we are not able to mitigate our circumstances.
  #24  
Unread 11-03-2007, 01:25 AM
anca anca is offline
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Re: Venus and Saturn

With Venus opp Saturn I'm 'afflicted' not only by Wayne's definition but also de facto. Bad relationships, much struggle, pain...the whole nine yards...but at the end no regrets. So, why not view everything in the light of 'feel good astrology'?
We use to say that we build relationships, same as a building, start with a nice thought, passion, plan, you put time and love and hopes and at one point the building doesn't stand any test and there is a very strong urge (maybe Saturn at work) to demolish everything down to the last brick. I suspect that Pluto is also involved with the demolition job and cleaning up debris and if you have the strength to go through the whole process at the end you realize that Saturn actually helped to end a relationship which was not good (anymore).
You guys are all experts, but you'll allow me to bring my humble observation: Venus at odds with Saturn....not so good news, sooner or later, and what's meant to end let it end. Till then carpe diem.
But this is as far as my opposition goes, squares are softer and manageable and as somebody mentioned before, with a little help from a nice Moon, Jupiter you'll be on your way to the 50 years wedding aniversary.
  #25  
Unread 11-03-2007, 03:08 AM
Yoi Yoi is offline
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Re: Venus and Saturn

I don't have Venus aspecting Saturn but I do have Venus in Capricorn. What would be the difference between Venus aspecting Saturn and Venus in a sign ruled by Saturn?
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