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  #1  
Unread 12-03-2011, 05:29 AM
sequestra sequestra is offline
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Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

I know that I have previously posted a thread about physical self-harm, but this one is intended to broaden the theme, as self-abuse is not limited to bodily manifestations.

Where would one look for recurring patterns of self-sabotage? For example, the sort of scenario where one can be close to success, or even momentarily attain it, only to deliberately, willfully (and somewhat uncontrollably) strip it from oneself? These may be subtle or profound tendencies and could range from self-defeatist attitudes (that passively subvert one's efforts) to the more overt self-sabotaging actions (e.g. quitting a job where you're successful or leaving a partner you love for no good reason, etc).

I know this is a broad and complex topic that undoubtedly entails many variant influences (reflecting nuances between one chart and the next), but has anyone detected any patterns that may be of interest? If you are predisposed to any such tendency (and willing to share), which elements in your chart do you believe this can be attributed?


Last edited by sequestra; 12-03-2011 at 05:32 AM.
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Unread 12-03-2011, 12:06 PM
lazarusx lazarusx is offline
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

I have noticed this in myself, as to where in my chart i would look im not sure.

For me though it seems to have a heavy presence within illusion; as i near closer towards success or attaining my goal i become overwhelmed with this sense of dread that i am about to lose my sense of self, because up until this point my identity has been defined through my desire to reach this goal.

The illusion that i'm not really who i think i am begins to dawn on me as i come closer to the point of dissolving my desires; so out of fear i sabotage everything and create another goal in an attempt to prolong this realization; and maintain the illusion that i am what i desire.

Neptune in my chart is located in the 8th house conjunct Saturn/Uranus and in opposition to Sun/Chiron.. which may indicate this feeling of losing my self/death into the collective consciousness which is never more apparent then when im on the verge of achieving my goals which simultaneously dissolves them, and hence my "false" sense of self.
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Lives in eternity's sun rise."
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Last edited by lazarusx; 12-03-2011 at 12:12 PM.
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Unread 12-03-2011, 08:35 PM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

Mars and Saturn, duh. Mars would be more about cutting yourself with a knife and acting to self-harm but a Saturn person would stop himself from eating without really realizing it, or generally restrain himself from acting to self-harm. Out of the two, Saturn it worse. Mars and Saturn have their place, but they're the most destructive. Uranus and Pluto are also considered malefic but they're just higher octaves of other planets so they're not that unique. Neptune is considered a benefic but could be destructive if it has anything malefic (houses, aspects, etc.) with it.

I'm either Uranian or Saturninian or maybe Martian depending on who you are so don't say I'm trying to crucify any planets.
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Unread 12-03-2011, 09:08 PM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

Hi Sequestra.

I think that hard aspects in general, especially those that involve planets that don't get on with one another, would be a good place to start, just because these often show where something is highly charged and yet functioning unconsciously.

Apart from that, I think that Saturn is an especially likely candidate because of its association with ambition and also the sense of futility and frustration which prompts us to bring more integrity and self-determination to the way we act upon the world. Saturn may also cause us to shrink back at the last minute due to an excessive sense of self-limitation and fear of disapproval.

Neptune, (and also the Moon in certain signs and with certain aspects), can try to cling to a state of fusion, and the attainment of success can often involve a process of further incarnating into a particular identity, which tends to invoke an increased sense of isolation and mortality (which Neptune can't abide).

If we are pursuing successes that are not of our own genuine choosing, Mars or Uranus may rebel at the last minute. Or a strong Mars of Uranus may simple refuse to be confined by the obligations and commitments that come with the success.

And if the Plutonian drive is at odds with our conscious aims, we are often doomed to fail until we incorporate collective transformation and survival into our individual agenda. I think Neptune can manifest in this way too, though usually in a less gutsy manner than Pluto.

What thoughts have you had, Sequestra?
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Unread 12-04-2011, 01:59 AM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

i have virgo ascendant conjunct pluto trine saturn,
thats enough to beat yourself up with but im over it these dys i try to think of akl thw things i have succeeded in and why i should be proud

i also have a cardinal square or two or three so if im not achieving i tend to beat myself up
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Unread 12-04-2011, 04:30 AM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazarusx View Post
I have noticed this in myself, as to where in my chart i would look im not sure.

For me though it seems to have a heavy presence within illusion; as i near closer towards success or attaining my goal i become overwhelmed with this sense of dread that i am about to lose my sense of self, because up until this point my identity has been defined through my desire to reach this goal.

The illusion that i'm not really who i think i am begins to dawn on me as i come closer to the point of dissolving my desires; so out of fear i sabotage everything and create another goal in an attempt to prolong this realization; and maintain the illusion that i am what i desire.

Neptune in my chart is located in the 8th house conjunct Saturn/Uranus and in opposition to Sun/Chiron.. which may indicate this feeling of losing my self/death into the collective consciousness which is never more apparent then when im on the verge of achieving my goals which simultaneously dissolves them, and hence my "false" sense of self.
Remarkable self-insight. I just wanted to tell you that I thoroughly enjoyed reading this post.
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Unread 12-04-2011, 05:17 AM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

Okay I'm going to attempt to multi-quote in this post so my apologies in advance if I mess it up.

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Originally Posted by miquar View Post
Apart from that, I think that Saturn is an especially likely candidate because of its association with ambition and also the sense of futility and frustration which prompts us to bring more integrity and self-determination to the way we act upon the world. Saturn may also cause us to shrink back at the last minute due to an excessive sense of self-limitation and fear of disapproval.

Neptune, (and also the Moon in certain signs and with certain aspects), can try to cling to a state of fusion, and the attainment of success can often involve a process of further incarnating into a particular identity, which tends to invoke an increased sense of isolation and mortality (which Neptune can't abide).

If we are pursuing successes that are not of our own genuine choosing, Mars or Uranus may rebel at the last minute. Or a strong Mars of Uranus may simple refuse to be confined by the obligations and commitments that come with the success.
Yes I would link it strongly to saturn myself, specifically in relation to the limiting factor - sometimes limiting oneself to such an extent that one never really comes to know his or her own capabilities. In turn, one comes to feel defeated by what is perceived as one's uselessness/incompetency.

I feel as if self-defeatism is also a typically [negative] piscean trait (the tendency to become easily overwhelmed), and so I imagine that a negative union between saturn/neptune or the strong and afflicted presence of these planets in a chart would accentuate the tendency.

And as you and Rebel Uranian have pointed out, add mars/uranus to the mix and this can be explosively manifest - the domain in which the paroxysm occurs or whether it be physical or psychological would depend on the houses, I imagine.

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Originally Posted by miquar View Post
And if the Plutonian drive is at odds with our conscious aims, we are often doomed to fail until we incorporate collective transformation and survival into our individual agenda. I think Neptune can manifest in this way too, though usually in a less gutsy manner than Pluto.
These are very interest points that had not occurred to me.

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Originally Posted by miquar View Post
What thoughts have you had, Sequestra?
With respect to my own chart I feel that mercury square saturn/pluto can be held accountable for a lot of the fatalistic and defeatist thought processes (though I fight them much better these days!), and that venus/mars in pisces square neptune in the 1st exacerbates the delusional propensity. I know it all becomes much worse when I isolate myself, with the catch 22 of course being that this is my natural tendency (saturn in 12th).

Sometimes I think my saturn in 12th perhaps just explains the lot.

Thank you again for your considered reply Miquar. I have read many of your posts and always find them so astute and inspirational.

Last edited by sequestra; 12-06-2011 at 04:08 AM. Reason: Too self deprecating.
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Unread 12-04-2011, 05:23 AM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

Quote:
Originally Posted by *emma* View Post
i have virgo ascendant conjunct pluto trine saturn,
thats enough to beat yourself up with but im over it these dys i try to think of akl thw things i have succeeded in and why i should be proud

i also have a cardinal square or two or three so if im not achieving i tend to beat myself up
Hi Emma and thanks for replying. Yes those sound like the right ingredients for an ambitious and perfectionistic type of character, but I'm pleased to hear that you are working on giving yourself credit where it's due. I'm sure you have much to be proud of!
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Unread 12-04-2011, 05:29 AM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

Isn't that self destruction something like fatalism,and those traits arhaicly go with Pluto and scorpio?
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Unread 12-04-2011, 04:33 PM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

Why modern rulers don't make sense:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=42563
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ead.php?t=2126

(if the topic of this thread changes, blame me. but just don't change the topic of this thread in the first place peeps)
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Unread 12-04-2011, 05:12 PM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

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Originally Posted by Choe View Post
Isn't that self destruction something like fatalism, and those traits arhaicly go with Pluto and scorpio?
My understanding of Pluto is also that it is the clearest symbol of self-destruction. Of course its main aim is survival, but not of the ego or even the individual. In Pluto's eyes everything that we might become attached to is dispensable whether our attachment is to a relationship, our present incarnation, or a particular sense of identity.

And I also agree that the word 'fate' is very appropriate to Pluto, as has been extensively discussed by people such as Liz Greene. I find it very interesting how much Saturn and Pluto have in common. They both rule the signs generally most prone to depression and paranoia, and both seem to put involve confronting the dark, shadow side of life in the name of growth. Its like both of these planets plug us into the necessity of who we are at the deepest level.

Sequestra

Thanks for your kind words. The dynamic between Saturn and Neptune seems to really sum up the fundamental existential dilemma of incarnation doesn't it. The fall from grace and the ejection from the Paradise Garden, etc.

Lazarusx

I was fascinated by the way that Neptune seems to interfere with the development of a solid ego with a defined purpose (Sun and Saturn). You posted that you become overwhelmed by a fear that you are about to lose your sense of self as you approach success, but is it that you are afraid of losing your lack of definition of self as the success crystalises a new facet of your identity? If you attain success, don't the desires become actualised in form, and is it not 'failure' (ie retreat back into Neptunian waters) that dissolves the desires?

Perhaps I haven't understood your post properly, or do not appreciate certain subtleties this area of life?
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Unread 12-04-2011, 06:02 PM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

Quote:
Originally Posted by miquar View Post
I find it very interesting how much Saturn and Pluto have in common. They both rule the signs generally most prone to depression and paranoia, and both seem to put involve confronting the dark, shadow side of life in the name of growth. Its like both of these planets plug us into the necessity of who we are at the deepest level.
Pluto is the higher octave of Mars, and Saturn is, well, Saturn. Mars and Saturn don't like each other very much, although whether this is an issue or not depends mostly on the individual chart. Saturn rules Capricorn and Aquarius and Mars rules Scorpio and Aries. Obviously there's a big different between the functions of the planets by night and day. Mars and Saturn do have some similarities, but not enough to say that Saturn = Pluto. Also, Liz Greene is probably my least favorite astrologer of all time, of all times. One of the reasons I started astrology was to learn things past the general, not to make more generalizations. She still uses the outdated principle that all women are great nurturers? ROFL

Last edited by Rebel Uranian; 12-04-2011 at 06:05 PM.
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Unread 12-04-2011, 11:14 PM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

Hi Rebel Uranian

Please could you post the source where Liz Greene says that all women are great nurturers. I've read a lot of transcripts of her seminars and my impression is that she feels that some people, of both genders, are not innately suited to parenting and drift into it due to social conformity and fear of isolation after leaving their family of origin.

With regard to the Saturn Pluto thing, you seem to be arguing that there is no overlap between the values and drives of Saturn and Pluto on the basis that Pluto is the higher octave of Mars, and Mars is different to Saturn.

I would say that we can pick virtually any planetary pairing and find both similarities and differences between them. I do feel that it is relevant to see Pluto as the higher octave of Mars, but there will still be differences between them, so comparing Mars to Saturn isn't the same as comparing Pluto to Saturn. But in any case, Mars and Saturn do share certain values, for example they both encourage a sense of individuality and separateness.

I would encourage anyone trying to synthesise the various fragments of a chart into something which reflects the wholeness of a real-life individual to see how planetary values and urges overlap. The planetary pantheon is often likened to a group of characters, and of course it has always been personified as such in myth throughout history. If you have a group of people, all of whom seem different from one another, you will find things they have in common - points of common ground. This is an important principle for conflict resolution on a personal and global scale, I feel, as well as for the resolution of inner conflicts.
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True freedom and the end of suffering is living in such a way as if you had completely chosen whatever you feel or experience at this moment.

Eckhart Tolle, Stillness Speaks, page 118
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Unread 12-04-2011, 11:25 PM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

Quote:
Originally Posted by miquar View Post
Please could you post the source where Liz Greene says that all women are great nurturers. I've read a lot of transcripts of her seminars and my impression is that she feels that some people, of both genders, are not innately suited to parenting and drift into it due to social conformity and fear of isolation after leaving their family of origin.
Liz Greene says that all women use their Moons and Venuses more than their Suns and Marses. The Moon, being a luminary, is typically the stronger of the two. The Moon stands for nurturing, motherhood, dependence, etc. according to popular modern astrology (which is mostly based on Liz Greene.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by miquar View Post
With regard to the Saturn Pluto thing, you seem to be arguing that there is no overlap between the values and drives of Saturn and Pluto on the basis that Pluto is the higher octave of Mars, and Mars is different to Saturn.

I would say that we can pick virtually any planetary pairing and find both similarities and differences between them. I do feel that it is relevant to see Pluto as the higher octave of Mars, but there will still be differences between them, so comparing Mars to Saturn isn't the same as comparing Pluto to Saturn. But in any case, Mars and Saturn do share certain values, for example they both encourage a sense of individuality and separateness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian View Post
Mars and Saturn do have some similarities, but not enough to say that Saturn = Pluto.
Comparing Mars to Saturn is similar to comparing Pluto to Saturn. Let's start listing the differences between Mars and Pluto so we can start finding the similarities between Pluto and Saturn. Also, the "night and day" bit was about sect, not about how big the difference was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miquar View Post
If you have a group of people, all of whom seem different from one another, you will find things they have in common - points of common ground. This is an important principle for conflict resolution on a personal and global scale, I feel, as well as for the resolution of inner conflicts.
Most people only look for differences, not for similarities. The real problem comes in when the similarities people can find are not being actively looked for and aren't more so than another set of similarities and the latter is declared a set of differences.
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Unread 12-04-2011, 11:43 PM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

Hi. You've back-peddled significantly in your declaration of Liz Greene's view of women and nurturing, but as someone who has studied her work I feel qualified to argue that you are still way off the mark. I have never come across an assertion by her that all women use their Moon and Venus energies more than they use their Mars and Sun energies.

I never said Saturn=Pluto - I just said that they involve processes which overlap in both meaning and goal.

I don't understand your last sentence.
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True freedom and the end of suffering is living in such a way as if you had completely chosen whatever you feel or experience at this moment.

Eckhart Tolle, Stillness Speaks, page 118
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Unread 12-05-2011, 01:58 AM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

How was I back-pedaling?


Yes, the "Saturn = Pluto" bit was bad for my side.

I apologize for my last sentence. It's mostly speculation and it is quite hard to read.
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Unread 12-05-2011, 02:07 AM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

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Originally Posted by miquar View Post
Lazarusx

I was fascinated by the way that Neptune seems to interfere with the development of a solid ego with a defined purpose (Sun and Saturn).
I'm not sure how solid my ego is, since Saturn is in opposition to my Sun/Chiron.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miquar View Post
You posted that you become overwhelmed by a fear that you are about to lose your sense of self as you approach success, but is it that you are afraid of losing your lack of definition of self as the success crystalises a new facet of your identity? If you attain success, don't the desires become actualised in form, and is it not 'failure' (ie retreat back into Neptunian waters) that dissolves the desires?

Perhaps I haven't understood your post properly, or do not appreciate certain subtleties this area of life?
You could be right, it might be a fear of self-actualization and the responsibility that inherently comes with it. It makes sense in my head, although im not sure how to explain it.. i find it can be difficult to analyze or even acknowledge illusion at times.. i've been dealing with a rather extreme sense of existentialism for the past year which has been stripping everything away..
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Doth the winged life destroy;
But he who kisses the joy as it flies
Lives in eternity's sun rise."
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Unread 12-05-2011, 02:26 AM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

My feeling is that the Sun and Neptune would be involved for self undoing and sabotage....Self destruction would belong with the Sun and Pluto more....It is as complicated as the person and we would need to look at the natal charts with transits and progressions
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Unread 12-05-2011, 02:41 AM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

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My feeling is that the Sun and Neptune would be involved for self undoing and sabotage....Self destruction would belong with the Sun and Pluto more....It is as complicated as the person and we would need to look at the natal charts with transits and progressions
Yes I agree, definitely. I guess in my case it has been an ongoing thing - it started from a very early age and has seemingly become more extreme in presentation (or perhaps the cumulative effects are just more perceptible). I'm happy to be a case study though so my chart is attached.

Last edited by sequestra; 12-09-2012 at 05:31 AM.
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Unread 12-05-2011, 08:16 PM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

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I'm not sure how solid my ego is, since Saturn is in opposition to my Sun/Chiron.

You could be right, it might be a fear of self-actualization and the responsibility that inherently comes with it. It makes sense in my head, although im not sure how to explain it.. i find it can be difficult to analyze or even acknowledge illusion at times.. i've been dealing with a rather extreme sense of existentialism for the past year which has been stripping everything away..
I would say that the strength of the ego depends largely on the energies of Sun and Saturn, and that both of these aspecting Neptune might demand that ego strength can only be built very slowly over time because of the Neptunian demand to keep one foot in the imaginal realm of collective feeling. I don't think that Sun Saturn on its own necessarily weakens the ego, although it can initially reflect a strong outer shell with no real sense of personal worth inside it, which is a different kind of weak ego to the porous one that Neptune can foster. I think Chiron's involvement really underlines the split between Saturn and Neptune because Chiron symbolises ideals that have been crushed by the experience of reality.

It seems you are on something of a special journey, perhaps carrying that existential dilemma in concentrated form for the rest of humankind. And I feel its appropriate to express some debt of gratitude from those of us who can be a little more complacent (and perhaps shallow) in the way we cultivate identities during this incarnation.
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Eckhart Tolle, Stillness Speaks, page 118
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Unread 12-05-2011, 08:33 PM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

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How was I back-pedaling?


Yes, the "Saturn = Pluto" bit was bad for my side.

I apologize for my last sentence. It's mostly speculation and it is quite hard to read.
Hi. 'Back-pedalling' was rather harsh - sorry. I just felt that you had loosened your assertion.

But in any case, I just wanted to say that as far as I can see, Liz Greene goes to great effort to understand and teach the essence of an archetype as a way of avoiding assumptions and generalisations. If you start with the essence, you have not pidgeon-holed anyone any more than they are already pidgeon-holed by constellating a particular archetypal pattern at birth.

I think most people, myself included, and as you know also Liz Greene, that there are, generally speaking psychological differences between the genders. But of course this in a sense is just another typology - psychological male and psychological female - and some will fit one pole or the other more neatly than others, and some will go against the psychological gendering of the the majority of those who share their biological gender (and there are some who are born not even fitting neatly into a biological gender-type). And of course we don't know how much is down to socialising.

I personally believe that we are all ultimately psychologically androgynous, wherever we start off in terms of biological or psychological types.

I hope you don't mind me asking, but are you female, and if so, do you dislike Greene's astrology because the generalisations you feel she has made are counter to your feminist views? I don't see Greene as anti-feminist.
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Unread 12-05-2011, 09:17 PM
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

Hi Sequestra. Your chart seems to divide fairly neatly into two main configurations, especially if you use slightly smaller orbs and therefore lose Mercury aspects to Neptune and Pluto.

There's the Jupiter Uranus rising in Sagittarius opposite Moon in Gemini setting, with both ends of the opposition in flowing aspect to Mercury in Aquarius in the 3rd house (Mercury's own house and the house naturally associated with Gemini)

And then there's Sun, Venus and Mars in the water sign Pisces (with Sun in the watery 4th house and Venus and Mars in Pisces emphasising the watery nature of the Sun's natural house the 5th, which has its cusp in Pisces), with the watery planets Neptune and Pluto aspecting Sun, Venus and Mars too.

The contrast between these two themes may be something you feel very strongly. One could hardly think of a more perfect configuration than the first one for the joyful pursuit of understanding - a sense of life as an endless treasure hunt for knowledge and perhaps faith/meaning.

But the second theme would seem to be the one that reflects that which undermines you and turns you in on yourself - perhaps sometimes in destructive ways. The involvement of Saturn with Pluto may reflect a sense of imminent destruction of those things which give you a sense of security and self-respect, and the fact that the aspect between the Sun and the Saturn Pluto conjunction is a trine does not necessarily mean that it your Sun will delight in, and feel supported by these two 'heavies' of the planetary pantheon.

By squaring Mercury, and therefore challenging you to learn thoroughly and communicate with integrity, Saturn kind of hinges the two themes together. But like the Sun, it is in a watery sign and house - and these two planets of ego formation being so immersed in the watery realm suggests a porousness and vulnerability of selfhood.

I would say that valuing feelings is the way to go with this chart, because without this your building blocks of individuality (Sun and Saturn) are not at your disposal. It seems likely that you are already aware that you are on a journey, a process, which will take you through many difficult feelings such as anger, resentment, guilt, forgiveness of hurts done to you, loneliness, and grief.

I wouldn't be all that surprised if you experienced manic-depressive type fluctuations. The first theme I mentioned above could provide an attractive escape route from the burdens of emotional vulnerability - and the Pisces planets might buy into it due to the endless thirst for the ideal of Pisces.

There's something about the Venus closely conjunct Mars in Pisces in the 5th quincunx Pluto in the 12th too. I can't quite get a handle on it, but Mars and Venus reflect one's appetite for life on the everyday level. In Pisces in the 5th there could be a strong desire to be something really special, but Pluto on the 12th cusp is suggesting that dark emotional undercurrents have been handed down the generations because none of your recent ancestors wanted to face them honestly. One possible manifestation of this part of your chart is the manipulative use (by your caregivers) of your need to feel special when you were a child, ending with you feeling bitter and betrayed. Venus, Mars and Pluto all have a lot to do with sexual expression, so it could have taken an overt and particularly sinister form.

I don't know if any of this will be relevant to you, but these are the things that jump out at me looking at your chart with your post in mind.
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True freedom and the end of suffering is living in such a way as if you had completely chosen whatever you feel or experience at this moment.

Eckhart Tolle, Stillness Speaks, page 118
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Unread 12-05-2011, 09:34 PM
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Paula Andrea Pyle Paula Andrea Pyle is offline
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

When encountering self-sabotage, we must look to the degrees of the ninth house cusp since the mind is indeed a terrible thing to waste. The ruling planet's postion in the chart will add instruction to the course of expanding direction. Usually, it is NOT the preferred route or expected avenue of expression but in the gutter many things of glorious merit are found...MODE of Cosmic Therapy
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Unread 12-06-2011, 01:12 AM
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luna7 luna7 is offline
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

I'm still relatively new here. Where can I find your chart?? ta
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Unread 12-06-2011, 02:01 AM
sequestra sequestra is offline
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Re: Self-sabotage / self-defeatism / self-destruction

Wow Miquar, thank you so much. What an exhaustive and revealing analysis. You have hit on so many things correctly (in fact nothing was wrong), that I'm sort of sitting here, mouth agape, in a state of wonderment.

I certainly experience the dichotomy you elucidated, to such an extent in fact that I'm technically diagnosed with rapid cycling bi polar 2. At the moment I'm on the tail end of a depressive cycle, since I can finally feel my energy returning after months of somnolence. In a way it's as if I oscillate between the shallow splash-pools of life and its cavernous depths. I have flown too close to the sun only to fall so far into the abyss that I've barely made it through (on so many occasions now that I've truly exceeded my '9 lives').

So this time around I'm trying not to let my returning energies/positivity get the better of me. I think that perhaps if I make a conscious effort not to let it run orgiastically wild, then my inevitable down-swing will not be quite so treacherous. I'm tired of things being either a delusional sort of fantastic or of encompassing similar dimensions of catastrophic despair. Temperance is what I must learn, as I feel I will only reach some sort of constructive balance when I become competent in walking the middle path.

Thank you again. I really am very grateful for your sensitively expressed insights. This is your talent, without a doubt.
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C'est la vie. Life is a cruel mystery indeed, but I suppose I shall continue to torture myself anyway

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