Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Horary Astrology > Horary Technique

Horary Technique This sub-board is the placeholder for all threads concerning theoretical and technical issues in horary astrology.


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Unread 04-22-2010, 07:58 PM
SagiCap's Avatar
SagiCap SagiCap is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,343
Combust Sun - but Sun is Subject Signifier

If you ask a question ie: Will we be friends/communicate? - and the ruler of your 3rd H, Communications is in 11th with you AND it happens to be the Sun (it combusts you,) does this mean yes?

ie: There is combustion and fear for the Quesitor, granted, but there is also Sun combusting me as Merc. and it happens to rule my Communications. It was really a question about communications/friendship, etc,...


__________________
“Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a******s.” -William Gibson.


Last edited by SagiCap; 04-23-2010 at 01:32 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Unread 04-22-2010, 09:40 PM
Arian Maverick's Avatar
Arian Maverick Arian Maverick is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,089
Re: Combust Sun - but Sun is Subject Signifier

I'm no horary astrologer, but according to my understanding, the Sun is the planet which causes another planet to be combust, so it itself cannot be combust. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Arian Maverick
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Unread 04-22-2010, 10:16 PM
SagiCap's Avatar
SagiCap SagiCap is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,343
Re: Combust Sun - but Sun is Subject Signifier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arian Maverick View Post
I'm no horary astrologer, but according to my understanding, the Sun is the planet which causes another planet to be combust, so it itself cannot be combust. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Arian Maverick
Hi Arian,

I just meant - if Sun signifies the subject matter is it a "combuster" still? Is it hurting Merc here - or just being the signifier of the communication I'm asking about? Hope that clarifies.
__________________
“Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a******s.” -William Gibson.


Last edited by SagiCap; 04-23-2010 at 01:13 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Unread 04-23-2010, 04:13 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: Combust Sun - but Sun is Subject Signifier

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagiCap View Post
Hi Arian,

I just meant - if Sun signifies the subject matter is it a "combuster" still? Is it hurting Merc here - or just being the signifier of the communication I'm asking about? Hope that clarifies.

In my opinion the answer to your question is YES; (to my outlook) if any significator is combust, its influence is destroyed-it is a very negative testimony. However, I do not follow most of the older authorities in their definition of how many degrees to the Sun = combustion (these combust limits have ranged from 7:50 degrees, with some of the British astrologers of Lilly's times, down to 6 degrees with Al-Biruni around 1000 AD) I follow C.E.O. Carter, Robson, Manly P. Hall, and others in considering 3 degrees the limit of combustion.

As you know, the Moon is always regarded as very important in almost all horary delineative work-and I follow that myself: however, if in any such chart I find the Moon combust, I DISREGARD ALL LUNAR TESTIMONY in such a chart (it would have to be so, if there is any truth in the doctrine of what combustion does to planetary influence)

Last edited by dr. farr; 04-23-2010 at 06:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Unread 04-23-2010, 05:31 AM
Pallas-trine-Mars's Avatar
Pallas-trine-Mars Pallas-trine-Mars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 457
Re: Combust Sun - but Sun is Subject Signifier

I'm very skeptical of the supposedly extremely adverse effects of combustion, except for the Moon. My void of course Mercury less than 3 degrees from combustion hasn't caused me much harm, but maybe that's just different, I've read one astrologer who said Mercury is never combust and the effect of combustion is due to Vulcan. :\
__________________
http://year-of-the-sun.elementfx.com (wip)

"
...Of the 2700 astronomers attending the conference (out of some 10,000 professionals worldwide), less than 500 actually voted on the resolution, which was put to the assembly on the last day of the conference. Not much of a consensus.
"

-Rob Tillett on the 2006 IAU General Assembly and the precedent to declare Pluto a "Dwarf Planet"


This user (birth chart) knows everything! At least, that's what his mother keeps saying...
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Unread 04-23-2010, 05:38 PM
SagiCap's Avatar
SagiCap SagiCap is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,343
Re: Combust Sun - but Sun is Subject Signifier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallas-trine-Mars View Post
I'm very skeptical of the supposedly extremely adverse effects of combustion, except for the Moon. My void of course Mercury less than 3 degrees from combustion hasn't caused me much harm, but maybe that's just different, I've read one astrologer who said Mercury is never combust and the effect of combustion is due to Vulcan. :\
This is exactly what confuses me.

1. Can Mercury be combust?
2. "Extremely adverse effects" I have not experienced either in my charts with combustion.
3. What is the orb?

ie: In my example,

Merc is 11 Taurus 43' 53"r
Sun is 2 Taurus 18' 38"
(all in 11th - AND signifier of the subject happens to be Sun too.)

Merc is near the 12H cusp however.

In the above example, is Merc combust? How do I read this? I don't understand the 43' 53" - is 11 the degree in Taurus that Mercury is in and 43' the minute and 53" the seconds?
__________________
“Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a******s.” -William Gibson.


Last edited by SagiCap; 04-23-2010 at 06:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Unread 04-23-2010, 06:20 PM
Arian Maverick's Avatar
Arian Maverick Arian Maverick is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,089
Re: Combust Sun - but Sun is Subject Signifier

According to the definition of combustion the Astrology Weekly main page, "the limits [of the orb are] variously placed at from 3° to 8°30'." If I calculated the distance between Mercury and the Sun correctly, the orb is approximately 9 degrees, 25 minutes, which exceeds the larger orb given in this example. Therefore, according to this definition, Mercury would not be combust, although I believe it still is considered to be Under the Sunbeams.

Arian Maverick
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Unread 04-23-2010, 08:27 PM
SagiCap's Avatar
SagiCap SagiCap is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,343
Re: Combust Sun - but Sun is Subject Signifier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arian Maverick View Post
According to the definition of combustion the Astrology Weekly main page, "the limits [of the orb are] variously placed at from 3° to 8°30'." If I calculated the distance between Mercury and the Sun correctly, the orb is approximately 9 degrees, 25 minutes, which exceeds the larger orb given in this example. Therefore, according to this definition, Mercury would not be combust, although I believe it still is considered to be Under the Sunbeams.

Arian Maverick
Wonderful! I really like the links too. Thank you so much for answering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivia View Post
Mercury is frequently combust. It kind of makes sense when you think of all the people in the world who don't seem to think at all, though some argue that Mercury is not as harmed by combustion as other planets. A planet is at the end of a cycle when it's combust - it's travelled back to the Sun, so it's weak from the journey and weak from the burning rays. In practical terms, the Sun overpowers it - whatever the planet might do, it tends to do in the Sun's service only, and sometimes it doesn't do things terribly well at all - the Moon especially. In my expereince in natal work, combustion will give one great gift in the area of life represented by the combust planet, and mess up the rest of the areas signified by the planet, though I haven't had enough charts with a combust planet to really write that as an aphorism - but keep an eye out for it, and see if it bears out in your practise. It may or may not do. A combust planet, especially the first or seventh house ruler, often denies marriage in a woman's chart.

Now - if the Sun signifies you - or the quesited, and Mercuy is the other significator, it usually isn't considered the same as combustion, because that would mean the Sun as significator couldn't conjunct anything.

If the Sun isn't a significator, then yes, it's technically combust within 8.5 degrees (as Dr Farr noted, there have been, and still are, many definitions of combustion, but 8.5 is the general standard). Any planet within 15 degrees of the Sun is considered 'under the beams' and therefore weaker than normal, but still functional Combustion and USB do cross sign boundaries. The further from the Sun, the better the combust planet will operate, as a rule.

The exception is cazimi, which makes a planet very strong, and that's when it's within 17 minutes of the Sun, or in the heart of the Sun. I have not noticed this to have great effect if the planet is in poor dignity - such as Mercury in Pisces or Venus in Virgo - it just won't make up for that much debility, but Jupiter and Venus cazimi in Pisces (the ruler and exaltation ruler, respectively), as we had this year, was a helpful thing in horaries.

Again, if the Sun is a significator and it conjuncts the other significator, then it's considered a normal answer (the two planets come together), and not as combustion.

Check this article by Abu Ma'shar (Albumasar in Latin) at the Cielo é Terra web site. You might find the first paragraph a bit confusing, so skip it if you like and go to number 178 onwards (it's only a few paragraphs down and they each bear a number) to read about the effects of combustion, cazimi, etc. It's good stuff.
Olivia, this is super. Excellent insight. Exactly what I needed to know - and your answer explains the intricacies re: Merc, Signifier so well.

I was asking about horary - would you say the same applies?

I'm reading your article now, thank you, my friend!
__________________
“Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a******s.” -William Gibson.


Last edited by SagiCap; 04-23-2010 at 10:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Unread 04-23-2010, 08:37 PM
Arian Maverick's Avatar
Arian Maverick Arian Maverick is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,089
Re: Combust Sun - but Sun is Subject Signifier

Quote:
Mercury is frequently combust. It kind of makes sense when you think of all the people in the world who don't seem to think at all, though some argue that Mercury is not as harmed by combustion as other planets.
I think one needs to consider much more than combustion to determine if an individual "does not seem to think at all." I am certain I can find many examples of great thinkers who have combust Mercury.

Quote:
In my expereince in natal work, combustion will give one great gift in the area of life represented by the combust planet, and mess up the rest of the areas signified by the planet, though I haven't had enough charts with a combust planet to really write that as an aphorism - but keep an eye out for it, and see if it bears out in your practise. It may or may not do.
This is a fascinating observation. My "great gift" seems to be writing, which is signified by Mercury, although I am uncertain which areas have been affected detrimentally. I do confess that I often find it difficult to see others' point of view because my core identity (Sun) is entwined tightly with my thought processes (Mercury), which is why I immediately took offense when you claimed that those who have Mercury combust "do not think at all." To the contrary, we do think--but we tend to be blinded by our thought processes.

Arian Maverick
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Unread 04-23-2010, 11:48 PM
Pallas-trine-Mars's Avatar
Pallas-trine-Mars Pallas-trine-Mars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 457
Re: Combust Sun - but Sun is Subject Signifier

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...6JadlRVkIUE5NA - This is the one I was talking about. This author NEVER considers Mercury combust since they always get close to each other and says the supposed bad effects of it are actually caused by the theoretical planet Vulcan which if current calculations are correct is never more than 8 degrees from the Sun. Another planet they say that cannot be combusted is Mars since he is humorically hotter and drier than the Sun, but that might be a more modern concept. I've always been skeptical of the whole concept of combustion, but I do give the Sun a wide orb.
__________________
http://year-of-the-sun.elementfx.com (wip)

"
...Of the 2700 astronomers attending the conference (out of some 10,000 professionals worldwide), less than 500 actually voted on the resolution, which was put to the assembly on the last day of the conference. Not much of a consensus.
"

-Rob Tillett on the 2006 IAU General Assembly and the precedent to declare Pluto a "Dwarf Planet"


This user (birth chart) knows everything! At least, that's what his mother keeps saying...

Last edited by Pallas-trine-Mars; 04-23-2010 at 11:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Unread 04-24-2010, 12:01 AM
misskitty's Avatar
misskitty misskitty is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,326
Re: Combust Sun - but Sun is Subject Signifier

I have to throw my hat in and concur... I've read sources that said that Mercury is never combust because it is at 'home' next to the Sun.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Unread 04-24-2010, 02:20 AM
SagiCap's Avatar
SagiCap SagiCap is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,343
Re: Combust Sun - but Sun is Subject Signifier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivia View Post
If it's about communication, then you could go to 3, but I don't see why that would be a part of this chart. If the person is your friend, it stands to reason they'll communicate with you - yes?

I used 3rd H for communication of an email.
__________________
“Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a******s.” -William Gibson.

Reply With Quote
  #13  
Unread 04-24-2010, 04:37 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: Combust Sun - but Sun is Subject Signifier

SagiCap:
The postings regarding this matter, and the links to the articles provided, should give you an excellent perspective on the subject of your question, from both the traditional and the "modern" point of view. Now for you-and the other posters too-I'll throw out a consideration of the subject which-except for where it came from-I have never heard about or read about, anywhere else (disregard the following if it causes any confusion in your mind whatsoever!)

My old Turkish astrologer friend, Pasha (back in the 1970's, when he must have been near 80 years of age)-told me that the astrological "tradition" (mostly an oral tradition) he was part of (centering in Ankara, Turkey) taught that combustion was entirely dependant upon the elemental quality of the planet involved; thus a fire planet (like Mars) would be most susceptible to combustion (because the Sun is fire), and water planets (like the Moon) would be least susceptible to combustion; he also mentioned that his tradition taught the orbs (limits) of combustion varied with the elemental quality of the planet involved. He dictated a list of planets relative to this outlook on combustion-I dug it out last night (from my old notes) because of this thread.

Here it is; I headed my notes, "The Ankara Combustion Table"

-Moon: (water) least affected by combust; combust orb = less than 3 degrees
-Mercury (earth) very little affected by combust; orb of combust 3 degrees (max)
-Venus (water) close to Moon as least affected by combust; same combust orb as Moon
-Mars (fire) most affected by combust; combust orb = 6/7 degrees
-Jupiter (air) very affected by combust;combust orb = 5 degrees
-Saturn (earth) like Mercury, little affected by combust; combust orb = 3 degrees


Interesting concept. good ol'Pasha!

Last edited by dr. farr; 04-24-2010 at 04:40 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Unread 04-24-2010, 11:05 AM
PaxMercurius's Avatar
PaxMercurius PaxMercurius is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 87
Re: Combust Sun - but Sun is Subject Signifier

If a planet must apply to the Sun by conjunction to make the aspect, then it cannot be regarded as a debility, otherwise the Sun would never be able to operate as a significator!

In questions where the querent/quesited is combust and the Sun is not the querent/quesited, it has the usual meaning.
__________________


“What is the above is from the below and the below is from the above. The work of wonders is from one." - The Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus


Ut in omnibus glorificetur Deus
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Unread 04-24-2010, 02:58 PM
SagiCap's Avatar
SagiCap SagiCap is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,343
Re: Combust Sun - but Sun is Subject Signifier

These are all helpful answers. I want to post the link - for help with more info - It's "Will (ex-love) agree to friendship/communication/etc" The email has been sent already before this chart - I feel that ruler (Mars) of the 11th friendship house, is conjunct Moon - and they're both in 3rd H of communcations. So this is positive.

Now this is where I got confused earlier. Merc (Quesitor) is conjuct, not cazimi (I think) w/Sun in 11th -and the Sun could represent the communcation, as it rules the 3rd house too.

He's Jupiter in 10th in Pisces - so not a bad-guy, I would imagine. Also, his ruler of 5th house, is Mars too - so maybe this is good? AND POF is in 5th.

__________________
“Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a******s.” -William Gibson.


Last edited by SagiCap; 04-24-2010 at 03:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Unread 04-24-2010, 03:54 PM
SagiCap's Avatar
SagiCap SagiCap is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,343
Re: Combust Sun - but Sun is Subject Signifier

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
SagiCap:
The postings regarding this matter, and the links to the articles provided, should give you an excellent perspective on the subject of your question, from both the traditional and the "modern" point of view. Now for you-and the other posters too-I'll throw out a consideration of the subject which-except for where it came from-I have never heard about or read about, anywhere else (disregard the following if it causes any confusion in your mind whatsoever!)

My old Turkish astrologer friend, Pasha (back in the 1970's, when he must have been near 80 years of age)-told me that the astrological "tradition" (mostly an oral tradition) he was part of (centering in Ankara, Turkey) taught that combustion was entirely dependant upon the elemental quality of the planet involved; thus a fire planet (like Mars) would be most susceptible to combustion (because the Sun is fire), and water planets (like the Moon) would be least susceptible to combustion; he also mentioned that his tradition taught the orbs (limits) of combustion varied with the elemental quality of the planet involved. He dictated a list of planets relative to this outlook on combustion-I dug it out last night (from my old notes) because of this thread.

Here it is; I headed my notes, "The Ankara Combustion Table"

-Moon: (water) least affected by combust; combust orb = less than 3 degrees
-Mercury (earth) very little affected by combust; orb of combust 3 degrees (max)
-Venus (water) close to Moon as least affected by combust; same combust orb as Moon
-Mars (fire) most affected by combust; combust orb = 6/7 degrees
-Jupiter (air) very affected by combust;combust orb = 5 degrees
-Saturn (earth) like Mercury, little affected by combust; combust orb = 3 degrees


Interesting concept. good ol'Pasha!
Very interesting concept. I wonder what he based this on - his experience?
__________________
“Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a******s.” -William Gibson.

Reply With Quote
  #17  
Unread 04-24-2010, 04:17 PM
lillyjgc's Avatar
lillyjgc lillyjgc is offline
Senior Member, Educational board Editor
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,930
Re: Combust Sun - but Sun is Subject Signifier

Hi sagicap,
In this chart you are Mercury and he is Jupiter. I'm using h7 to represent him. Theres no applying aspect between those 2 planets for starters. The sun rules your third house of communications and your ruler is applying by retrograde motion to the sun where it will be burned.
Also the moon has conjuncted Mars in h3..and this signifies I think, you taking the action of sending the email-initiating contact.
But the moon doesn't aspect his ruler, or yours. The combustion of sun/mercury in your friendship house is also accompanied by Mars ruling that house. His third house ruler is Saturn, on the cusp of your fourth-endings usually, and his ruler Jupiter will oppose it from his fourth.
The ruler of your fifth is Venus, in h12 conjunct Algol.
I'd say, this is a *no* answer, sagi.
Sorry
Lilly
__________________


**As above, so below**
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Unread 04-24-2010, 04:44 PM
SagiCap's Avatar
SagiCap SagiCap is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,343
Re: Combust Sun - but Sun is Subject Signifier

Quote:
Originally Posted by lillyjgc View Post
Hi sagicap,
In this chart you are Mercury and he is Jupiter. I'm using h7 to represent him. Theres no applying aspect between those 2 planets for starters. The sun rules your third house of communications and your ruler is applying by retrograde motion to the sun where it will be burned.
Also the moon has conjuncted Mars in h3..and this signifies I think, you taking the action of sending the email-initiating contact.
But the moon doesn't aspect his ruler, or yours. The combustion of sun/mercury in your friendship house is also accompanied by Mars ruling that house. His third house ruler is Saturn, on the cusp of your fourth-endings usually, and his ruler Jupiter will oppose it from his fourth.
The ruler of your fifth is Venus, in h12 conjunct Algol.
I'd say, this is a *no* answer, sagi.
Sorry
Lilly
Ugh. Heartbreaking but I have to learn not to ask unless I can handle the answer.

1 question however, is - is Saturn not technically in 5th?

Thanks for everything, Lilly.
__________________
“Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a******s.” -William Gibson.

Reply With Quote
  #19  
Unread 04-24-2010, 04:46 PM
SagiCap's Avatar
SagiCap SagiCap is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,343
Re: Combust Sun - but Sun is Subject Signifier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallas-trine-Mars View Post
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...6JadlRVkIUE5NA - This is the one I was talking about. This author NEVER considers Mercury combust since they always get close to each other and says the supposed bad effects of it are actually caused by the theoretical planet Vulcan which if current calculations are correct is never more than 8 degrees from the Sun. Another planet they say that cannot be combusted is Mars since he is humorically hotter and drier than the Sun, but that might be a more modern concept. I've always been skeptical of the whole concept of combustion, but I do give the Sun a wide orb.
I like this view, given my chart.
__________________
“Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a******s.” -William Gibson.

Reply With Quote
  #20  
Unread 04-25-2010, 04:17 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: Combust Sun - but Sun is Subject Signifier

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagiCap View Post
Very interesting concept. I wonder what he based this on - his experience?

According to Pasha, this was a teaching of the "tradition" he followed, which he claimed was centered in Ankara, Turkey. Pasha had a number of very unique concepts which he said were part of that tradition (which he also claimed dated back to Harran and the original Sabians-but that's another story!) Given my impression of the old man, and his high level of knowledge, I never had any reason to doubt his claims (in case any one might be interested, for additional information on what I learned from Pasha, see my posts on Skyscript, Horary Section, under the thread title, "How did you learn horary?")
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Unread 04-25-2010, 11:35 PM
SagiCap's Avatar
SagiCap SagiCap is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,343
Re: Combust Sun - but Sun is Subject Signifier

Thanks Dr. Farr. I'll head over and take a look at that thread.
__________________
“Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a******s.” -William Gibson.

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
combust, signifier, subject

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Quesited Signifier in the 12th house gatorzone Horary Technique 4 03-20-2017 09:45 AM
Do you have any natal planets combust? RuledbySaturn Natal Astrology 27 10-13-2011 02:04 AM
End of Matter. 4th - or 4th from subject matter house? SagiCap Horary Technique 3 01-29-2010 05:51 PM
Will I Get the Job (Q about Combust) marya Career-related Horary Questions 2 10-02-2009 07:55 AM
combust bad for horary...what about electional? barbh Electional and Event Astrology 4 05-21-2008 03:39 AM



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.