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Horary Questions on Lost items and missing people Discuss lost items horaries, also inquiries on the whereabouts of missing people.


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  #1  
Unread 04-18-2010, 09:25 AM
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Smile Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

I am posting a chart with a known outcome as an exercise I would hope to see many (and of different techniques) work with. The Chart has a known outcome. I had worked on it for about 2 hours and predicted the outcome, including location (place, height, hidden/open space, type of "room") the time, and the colors surrounding.... After some have shown us how their techniques are used, I will explain the prediction and then the outcome. I am asking that those with a strong horary background wait a few days to let those others that would like to share their techniques with the forum to have a chance. I am going to point out a few things here and there to start the ball rolling. Many people are not aware of many of the factors used as considerations and going through the process a step at a time may give a better understanding of the background of traditional (and modern....Jacobson speaks of using neptune as a ruler) authors that are sited.



The first thing that is of the utmost importance in horary is the question. If the question is formed in such a way that it isn't direct, that may give conflicting answers. The question is asked when the querent (person asking the question) can not wait another moment to know.... and at that point takes the responsibility (via Lily) to own the question and the answer regardless what it may be. Sometimes there is confusion when questions are asked in a negative or double negative fashion. If you get a positive answer, that would mean no then, and very confusing. So framing a question is of utmost importance. Questions that are subjective are the hardest to answer as a black and white yes or no may not be possible if the answer is a shade of grey (this often is our romance horarys where we can not get an actual concrete measure on emotions or feelings) If the querent is asking a frivolous question, or has tampered with the results, or in some cases of yesteryear the Astrologer is being tested... the chart will show that in where the Ascendant is or in where planets land. Defining who asked the question is the problem that I have been seeing often. A question is asked about may be a daughter..... we need to know if the daughter asked the question or if the parent did, not just who asks us, where did the question originate. The time is absolutely paramount. A few moments off and the whole dynamic of the chart has changed. If you do not remember the time, don't bother, the chart won't work. Rewording questions already asked of a horarist will only produce ill working charts. The original chart that was done probably will contain the answer you are looking for.


Okay, so this question....

First we need a bit of the background. It is important, it allows knowledge of which houses are to be used. It seems a bit of cheating, but it isn't. (an example, the 12th house means many things. I had a friend ask where his friend was once, and got the 12th. I knew the man worked with spiritualist and said he is like at a seance... if I didn't know that, the 12th in horary is known for darker things) so knowing the history gives us a better chance to interpret correctly.

In this horary.... the question was "Where is Brandon's backpack?" asked on April 12, 2010 at 8:23 PM in Colorado Springs, Colorado. The background... the question was asked by my Sister. Brandon is an ex employee of my sister and a friend and sometimes a bit more (he is 23 and my 44 year old sister is a cougar roar) Brandon has been living homeless for a week in a ditch. His last place (ex) kicked him out for drinking. Brandon know lives on my couch while he goes to AA meetings and works. His back pack contains his court papers requiring signatures from the AA officials. It is imperative he finds the backpack and they had spent the day scouring the ditch and field and in desperation, my sister asked the question. She looked at the clock immediately so she could record the time. I was asked the question the following day.

The first thing is to get the correct chart. Regiomontanus is the chart style best used with horary. We have had recent horarys that were cast in placideus and when changed over were able to be read and lost items found exactly where predicted. (yay Fensi) Now the next thing is to decide if the chart is readable. I, myself tend to agree with Frawley and Ivy Goldstien Jacobson that both feel every chart is readable. Others use the strictures and considerations. Honestly, if your particular horarist thinks it is not readable, don't push them, it is not for them, they are following rules and guidelines that not everyone does. Now, I am confident that my sister asked the question, not Brandon and not I. So I will give her the first house as her significator... and the lord of the house is Mars. Now if I asked the question, I would be the first house and would assign her the 3rd house, as that is the one for siblings.... and if Brandon had asked, he would get the first house..... I am leaving this at this point. I would love for those who use considerations or strictures to go over the chart and see if it is radical (readable) and post that information.

See you in a few days!
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Unread 04-18-2010, 09:50 PM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

Tempted to post, shall I wait?

R
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Unread 04-18-2010, 10:10 PM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

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Originally Posted by RayAustin View Post
Tempted to post, shall I wait?

R
Hi Ray!

I am hoping to break this down slowly so everyone can see the rules horary follows. In the light that we have members that use different techniques, I am hoping they will jump in with they would vary. LOL, I know, I can feel you chomping at the bit. Ray, how about you tell us which houses you would use for Significators (major players) and then tell us about the dignities and dibilities. If a major consideration was missed, feel free to add it and the source. I am going to go look for parallels and see if there are any conjunctions between any of the planets.

TK
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Unread 04-18-2010, 10:55 PM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

Read as both your sister's partner (7H) and friend (11) he seems to have been very close to the backpack all along

Lost object horaries aren't my speciality by any means, so I'll be interested to see other replies.
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Unread 04-19-2010, 12:33 AM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

Breaking it down slowly without giving answers? Aaargh...ok.

The first thing I notice is the early ascendant as noted by Olivia and the fact that the ascendant, (your sister), is in via combusta...therefore "blind" as to the location of the backpack.

Your sister actually asked the question, "Where is Brandon's backpack?"

So, the 7th house, (Taurus - Venus), becomes Brandon, (she mentioned him by name), and the 8th house, (Taurus ), and its ruler, (Venus), takes rulership of his backpack. It is interesting to note that Gemini is intercepted in Brandon's second house and it's ruler, (Mercury), is applying to to a square with his 4th house, (end of matters - the home) and then a conjunction with Brandon, (Venus), in his first house.

I also think that Venus, (ruler of the backpack) and Mercury, (co-ruler of the backpack), are perfect descriptions of the lost object. Venus rules clothing and Mercury rules communications and paperwork, (his true concern in this question).

The moon just separated from a trine to Mars, (ruler of Brandon' 7th house - your sister).

Ok...I will stop here without adding an interpretation and let others jump in.

Last edited by eedwards; 04-19-2010 at 03:01 AM.
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Unread 04-19-2010, 01:43 AM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

Another consideration is if the lights are "under the earth" or a majority of the planets are under the horizon (same thing as "under the earth"), which discourages anything coming up.

Another important consideration is if the lost object significator is in the 8th house
(house of loss), which most likely means it won't be coming back.

In 12th, very well hidden and possibly irrevocable.

In the 7th house, if afflicted, could mean its in the hands of a thief.

Afflictions to the lost object significator can specify damage...

Consider the 4th from the lost object's house as the "end of matter" and final outcome.


(Spoiler?)

As for my interpretation I would not consider the object naturally signified by Venus.. as it's not clothing or anything related to beautification, it's meant for storage and transport of goods. So it is best signified by Mercury.


We see Mercury is more or less the 2nd house significator (2nd from 7th) and is stationed in the house of its owner. So obviously its nearby. Mercury is going to go retrograde so the item is going to return. We see part of fortune is in the 1st house, the querent's house. So your sister could be a source of assistance/luck for Brandon. Mercury in Taurus so possibly in the hands of a woman, your sister; or underneath Brandon's nose. Taurus is an earthy sign as well so maybe on the ground somewhere, underneath something, outside. Mercury's next aspect is a square to Mars so perhaps your Sister is the one who finds it.. it's refraining away from Brandon (Venus) to your Sister (Mars).


If we analyze the 4th from the 8th, we see that its ruler is Mercury.. who is, again, about to go retrograde in Brandon's domicile ("house" or "ditch" in this case) confirming it comes back. It seems like its found outside near where he sleeps.

I also found it interesting analyzing the dignities of Mercury, who is in the exaltation of the Moon--which is 9th house/3rd ruler; legal documents. The exaltation placement seems to confirm that its very important in regard to that house which is interesting.

So ... all those archaic considerations aside mentioned (which I usually don't consider) the chart seems very readable and true, which is also another interesting aspect. Its my firm belief "considerations before judgment" were mostly a way for astrologers back then not to waste time making charts. Like the DMV, an excuse to tell you to go away and come back later.

R
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Last edited by RayAustin; 04-19-2010 at 02:07 AM.
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Unread 04-19-2010, 02:14 AM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

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As for my interpretation I would not consider the object naturally signified by Venus.. as it's not clothing or anything related to beautification, it's meant for storage and transport of goods. So it is best signified by Mercury.
I did not use Venus as the natural ruler of the backpack. The turned 2nd house cusp is Taurus 29'39. So, the back pack is ruled by Venus. The planetary hour is also Venus and fits perfect with the question.

Venus rules clothing and not just clothing used for "beautification." It also rules movable goods and lost objects. A back pack is worn on the body so is therefore considered clothing. Bags, purses, etc. are also ruled by Venus and a backpack could be considered the same if you want to follow that line of thinking. In any case, Venus rules the 2nd house cusp and therefore rules the backpack. Mercury is the secondary ruler as Gemini is intercepted in the turned 2nd house.

Last edited by eedwards; 04-19-2010 at 02:18 AM.
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Unread 04-19-2010, 02:21 AM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

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Originally Posted by eedwards View Post
I did not use Venus as the natural ruler of the backpack. The turned 2nd house cusp is Taurus 29'39. So, the back pack is ruled by Venus. The planetary hour is also Venus and fits perfect with the question.

Venus rules clothing and not just clothing used for "beautification." It also rules movable goods and lost objects. A back pack is worn on the body so is therefore considered clothing. Bags, purses, etc. are also ruled by Venus and a backpack could be considered the same if you want to follow that line of thinking. In any case, Venus rules the 2nd house cusp and therefore rules the backpack. Mercury is the secondary ruler as Gemini is intercepted in the turned 2nd house.
A backpack is an accessory, not a piece of clothing. And since it's a dude's accessory, it's not in the same category as a purse which would be more aligned to Venus. For him its focused on transport of documents and necessity and being on the "go" which is why Mercury is more suitable. A backpack has neutral gender just like Mercury. Even if Venus is on the 2nd cusp, Mercury describes it more accurately because its the only planet going retrograde..
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Unread 04-19-2010, 02:26 AM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

Okay can some of you go back and describe the condition of the significators, who might be exhault or who is accidental dignified, who is in who's dibility, and what essential dignity chart are you using? I use one of plotomey's that is used by Lilly. Did anyone check for perigine planets? How does an interception fit as a co significator, if you even allow it... We did jump ahead to aspects. Any receptions there?

Please I would love to see those others with alternative methods please join in... There have been many discussions on how every method is valid, and this is an invitation... we are all ears.

As the Declination of Latitude, I did find that Mars is parallel (same as conjunct) the North Node. North Node suggesting that finding the backpack it is imperative my sister is a part of it. The POF is Parallel with Venus, Brandon and the bags significators. The POF is used to describe where an item may be found... again a good testimony it will be found. Spotting other testimonies for a return or like above with Ray not likely?.... this is where we keep track of how many yeses to how many nos and the strengths of each testimony. I am using Mercury as the backpack... the 7th as Brandon and the turned 2nd (radix 8th) as his property. The lord of the 8th is also Venus (the cusp at 29 degrees) and intercepted Gemini, using the lord of Mercury. Mercury especially makes sense as a backpack is containing documents and used for short travel, both the domain of Mercury. OH Mercury is station, caught before the retrograde.... it is just sitting somewhere... in his house (turned 1st) right next to him (venus) hmmmm.... more later
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Last edited by wintersprite1; 04-19-2010 at 02:52 AM. Reason: found another testimony and wanted to add it in.
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Unread 04-19-2010, 02:28 AM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

Accessories are also ruled by Venus. Being a "dudes" accessory or not has nothing to do with it...especially in this day and age. Venus is the ruler of the back pack and Mercury is its co-ruler. They are both approriate and accurate in this situation. You can not just "pick and choose" these things in a horary chart.
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Unread 04-19-2010, 02:44 AM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

Agree to disagree.
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Unread 04-19-2010, 02:51 AM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

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Originally Posted by wintersprite1 View Post
Okay can some of you go back and describe the condition of the significators, who might be exhault or who is accidental dignified, who is in who's dibility, and what essential dignity chart are you using?
I didn't see it necessary to consider all those things T. Like the saying goes, it's like splitting hairs. Mercury is well situated in Taurus being along with Venus, its host. But in any event I use Dorothean triplicity rulers and Egyptian terms. The angularity of Mercury by the way is also a good testimony.
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Unread 04-19-2010, 02:51 AM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

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Agree to disagree.
Agreed
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Unread 04-19-2010, 03:00 AM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

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I didn't see it necessary to consider all those things T. Like the saying goes, it's like splitting hairs. Mercury is well situated in Taurus being along with Venus, its host. But in any event I use Dorothean triplicity rulers and Egyptian terms. The angularity of Mercury by the way is also a good testimony.

that is part of this exercise, to show how many different considerations a horarist goes through and decides to use or decides to toss aside. It was noted that there was a surprise that Olivia could spend 4 hours on a chart, I realize the surprise was in not knowing the tools available for us to use and choose from. I go back and forth even after a chart is finished and can always find more. I was hoping that others with other methods would join in and share, that is why I am going slowly with this, almost as a lesson in how some charts are derived at. Horary is a mystery for some, and I was hoping to unmystify it a bit by going through the details.

If you are going to split hairs, this is the time!!
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Unread 04-19-2010, 03:26 AM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

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that is part of this exercise, to show how many different considerations a horarist goes through and decides to use or decides to toss aside ... It was noted that there was a surprise that Olivia could spend 4 hours on a chart,
Everyone's different. Some people take the stairs and others take the escalator. Hahaha.
Quote:
Horary is a mystery for some, and I was hoping to unmystify it a bit by going through the details.

If you are going to split hairs, this is the time!!
Until someone asks some questions, then it isn't very misty. :P When someone questions I'll go into the nitty gritty. Until then I'm not going to assume what someone doesn't understand.
I agree with everything you're saying T, don't take it otherwise. Just putting in my lovely two pennies.

Raya
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Unread 04-19-2010, 12:02 PM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

I haven't been learning Horary for very long and only one unsuccessfull attempt for lost items.
You'll see why when you read the following
However I wanted to have a go:
If we look at the ascendant rulers 4th house for the locality of the item this is Aquarius ruler Saturn which would already be on the body of Brandon therefore not lost!!! So I’m going to look for the location of the backpack using Brandons 4th house.I’ve put Brandon in your sisters 11th house of friends and according to my astrology software Scorpios ruler Mars rules his 4th house which is intercepted by Sagittarius ruler Jupiter .So lost items are represented by the Moon and Brandons 2nd house ruler Venus .
You are Saturn in Brandons 1st house as you said he’s staying at your house...ummm and retrograde so I wonder if you're regretting your decision to let him sleep on your couch.
Brandons ex wife is Jupiter in his 7th house and his 5th house ruler is Capricorns ruler is also Saturn retrograde .I reckon he went back to her house and left his backpack there. The missing item (Venus) is in an angular house so suggests a quick recovery but in Brandons 9th house
Jupiter shows an incoming sextile to Venus (Backpack) The ex wife found the backpack in her house and has since returned it to Brandan (Mercury) incoming sextile to Jupiter or maybe via the ruler of the his 9th ie court representatibes
OK How bad was that??

Last edited by rocme; 04-19-2010 at 01:54 PM.
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Unread 04-19-2010, 02:20 PM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

lost object charts arent my strong point, so I'll do it for the practice.

I take h7 cusp as the guy who owns the backpack. I see that h8 (his second) is ruled by Venus and he is ruled by Venus and venus is conjunct Mercury in his own house.This alone tells me that the pack is still technically in his possession, or at least close by.
The moon is in mars's sign-the sister(querent) plays a pivotal role in this matter.
The moon barely separates from the trine to Mars..and I think this saves the chart from having a VOC moon..it also applies a square to the north node, so not technically void in my book.

Even though h8 is cusped at a late degree, I still use Venus to rule the pack.H2 relates to our possessions.The pack is his possession and it contains documents. Two things confirm this:
Mercury is inside h2 (documents inside the pack)and Mercury is right beside Venus, but refraining from the conjunction.
Venus is strong in its own sign, above the horizon, so in a place where it can be seen.
The querent is Mars, in quite a strong position. Mars and Venus are separating from a square, 9 degrees...(like *when he parted from your sister*.....).Mars is in Mercury's term too, linking the sister to the documents.
The fact that merc and venus are refraining from contact suggests to me that the pack and the documents are separated but not by much.Spilt on the ground perhaps?

I look to see what the moon has already done as the pack was lost previously.
Just after the moon entered aries it had opposed the malefic Saturn, in Mercury's sign..This I think relates to the serious nature of the documents, being in same sign as the documents.This *may* give a time frame-roughly 6 somethings ago, when the loss was discovered?
Then the moon trined Mars, the querent, now it goes on to square the node in his ninth house.So my theory is starting to look like his documents aren't in good shape..If the documents are Mercury, we see Merc slowing down in Taurus ready to station retrograde (a sign of their return at least!)
Now we see that Mercury squared Mars 5 *somethings ago*.I interpret that as the sister somehow creating an obstacle between the guy and his documents..
Mars is disposited by the sun in her sixth-going about her daily affairs...Maybe she tidied up and placed them out of view of him.The documents, mercury are behind Venus.The sun is exalted in Aries, so she was doing something that needed to be done...
So where are they??
I would say they are north of the guy,in a Taurean type of place.
Places like gardens, fountains, bedrooms, beds, wardrobes, cushions, being an earth sign, on the ground. Taurus rules low houses, farm buildings for animals, pasture and agricultural land, lightly wooded areas, and the countryside in general. In houses it rules rooms with low ceilings and cellars.
I'm looking forward to finding out....
Cheers
Lilly
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Unread 04-19-2010, 02:22 PM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

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Originally Posted by rocme View Post
I haven't been learning Horary for very long and only one unsuccessfull attempt for lost items.

Hello Rocme! Nice to have you join in. Seeing that you are new to horary, this was a wonderful attempt and thank you for sharing.

I am not quite ready to disclose the happenings. In the first part of this OMG is she ever verbose posting, I mentioned the importance of the question and how it sets up the chart to find the correct houses. The question was asked by my sister. That gives her the first house. Brandon has been more than just a friend, he has had multiple roles, in this case Eedwards noting that she used his name, we use the 7th house (the house for others, open enemies and spouses and more.... am I the only one that finds the house for marriage and open enemies is the same one.... duh redundant) As for the backpack it will be the 2nd house from Brandon's first house (the 8th house since Brandon's first house is the 7th... this is turning charts)

When significators are assigned correctly, it is amazing how the puzzle unravels. Now often on here we have seen other houses taken for significators and the outcome is the same! We had a wonderful horarist on here named Sorehearted, if you search some of her posts you will see she used different house assignments than most, yet her work was uncanny accurate and often the same outcome as another member's approach.

I do hope you follow this thread along and see how your interpretation matches up. The way to learn is to jump in like you did and then go back over and over and over, looking for clues of where you may have veered off. I have had this chart since it's inception and am still finding the history of the question (why the back pack was lost in the first place) and expect years from now if I keep the chart and become more fluent in horary readings, will find even more I missed this time around.

Thanks again for the wonderful attempt and look forward to seeing you around the board!

TK
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Unread 04-19-2010, 05:50 PM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

Lilly!!! You posted while I did, didn't see you.... you are honing in correctly with some of what you predicted.... as have the others. I am going to throw another log in the fire.

I have been working with some new/old, classical horary books. Using Simplified Horary Astrology by Ivy M. Goldstein-Jacobson, page 73 of the 1975 reprint edition... I am going to find the distance the back pack is from Brandon at the time of the reading. Jacobson says to use the distance between the lord of the cusp of the 1st and 2nd.... turning the chart that would be 7th and 8th. The first big in your face clue here was that the two had the same Lord... they are in Brandon's house! Wait, he has been living in a ditch... so I thought I would use the cosignificator for the backpack, being Mercury (as Gemini is intercepted in the turned 2nd) and I do think a backpack and documents are Mercurial. Now we have just shy 4 degrees between them. Now Jacobson says to use the Moon, and if it is in a Cardinal sign to double the numbers to get mileage.(miles as she is an American Astrologer prior to the metric conversion) If a common sign (mutable) half the difference and in Fixed, a quarter of the difference. So I have four degrees and a cardinal Moon makes the BASIC (Jacobson's emphasis) miles that the backpack is at 8 miles away. I was going to use a screen capture to show the radius of 8 miles from where the questioned was asked.... but as you will see, a matter of privacy is now an issue.... at about the 1 mile circle was my home, so that is out...at just inside the 5 mile circle is Brandon's employeer.... okay, not there then.... the ditch that he was living in is at the 7 mile circle... that is close, then at the 8 mile circle, a shade inside of it..... His ex's house!! and it starts making more sense, he still considers that his home, that is why he and the back pack are in the turned 7th (his first)... OKAY so now we have more players in the horary than we knew of.... Hence Olivia's considerations showing that this is one sticky, messy horary (and again not all of the information was present, but found in the chart).... that happens alot in horarys, sneaky is usually uprooted. At any rate, the distance for a lost object worked perfectly. The book has info on distance for missing people if someone needs that info, just pm me. So, Who is the ex? I am going to say the Moon, as my sister readily accepted and was willing to get to know her and help iron out any problems... see, Mars, her significator is receiving the Moon in Aries. Is it mutual, well Mars Antiscion is on fixed star ALGOL... and the Moon is applying to the Antiscion so not void by antistacia.... Ugly little love triangle shows up in the horary, that no one realized was the history of the backpack missing. (it was news to me also)

This is why some horarys take hours and hours.... the whole story is in them, you just need to read it.

T
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Unread 04-19-2010, 09:47 PM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

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Originally Posted by wintersprite1 View Post
7th as Brandon and the turned 2nd (radix 8th) as his property. The lord of the 8th is also Venus (the cusp at 29 degrees) and intercepted Gemini, using the lord of Mercury. Mercury especially makes sense as a backpack is containing documents and used for short travel, both the domain of Mercury. OH Mercury is station, caught before the retrograde.... it is just sitting somewhere... in his house (turned 1st) right next to him (venus) hmmmm.... more later
OK yes I interpretted Brandan as just a friend but I see now that he was more than a friend so he gets the 7th house significator. I will re look at this when I come home from work
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Unread 04-20-2010, 02:13 PM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

I’ve resisted reading any of the previous posts before submitting as I know I’d be too embarrassed to post. I still don’t understand transition of light, frustration etc so please forgive my novice approach and lack of correct terminology.I hope to learn lots from this thread


Venus backpack-2nd house ruler
Mercury –Papers-2nd house intercepted
Moon –Anything lost
Backpack and papers are separated from each other by 4 degrees but in the same sign so I’d say they’re close to each other

Brandon is the 7th house ruler which is Venus and in his 1st house
Your sister is on the 4th house cusp

So where is it?
1st house: Ascendant & Ruler = East
4th House (the ground where the lost items lay) is the Sun which is Brandons 12th house =East-South-East
Quote from Deborah Holding If the 2nd House ruler is in the ascendant or in the same sign as the ascendant ruler,or is situated in one of signs it rules,it is where the querant spends most of his time
The Moon is still in Brandons 11th house according to my software. It’s void of course which for missing items means there’s nothing to worry about ie the missing items will be returned; but the moon is under the rulership of the 12th house cusp so under the sunbeams.... The last aspect of Brandans ruler Venus indicates how the item was lost & the last aspect was Venus outgoing separation from Mercury 3 somethings ago; so it was lost through a connection with messages.Mercury being the primary significator of communications and meetings.
So the backpack is situated in an earth/fixed sign;earth represents places on the ground or floor and Taurus being a fixed sign represents low places,hidden or on ground level.
OK as you said Brandons focus right now is going to work and AA meetings. The 11th House represents fellowship J The 11th house is a mutable sign which could be a place near water or rooms within rooms; yes it sounds to me like a typical place where an AA meeting would be held and a water sign so places near water such as kitchens or bathrooms. Now the Moon ie significator for the lost item is ruled by the fire sign Aries which represents places of heat, near chimneys and partitions of a house and being a cardinal sign indicates places where there’s lots of movement and change which also sounds like an AA meeting.
Now Fortuna is significant in finding lost items and is in your sisters 1st house which is East and her 2nd house is intercepted by Jupiter which is the ruler of Brandons 11th house (AA meeting) Jupiter is making an incoming trine to Fortuna.Venus (The backpack and Brandon) make an make an incoming sextile to Jupiter (AA meeting) so I’m wondering even though your sister asked you the question if it was your sister who found the backpack first then the papers.Interesting that Brandons 9th house ruler ( Judges and court houses ) is Saturn retrograde & in Brandons 5th house making an incoming opposition to Jupiter,so I hope he didn’t get in trouble with the courts or go out drinking again
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Unread 04-20-2010, 03:31 PM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

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Originally Posted by wintersprite1 View Post
I am posting a chart with a known outcome as an exercise I would hope to see many (and of different techniques) work with. The Chart has a known outcome. I had worked on it for about 2 hours and predicted the outcome, including location (place, height, hidden/open space, type of "room") the time, and the colors surrounding.... After some have shown us how their techniques are used, I will explain the prediction and then the outcome. I am asking that those with a strong horary background wait a few days to let those others that would like to share their techniques with the forum to have a chance. I am going to point out a few things here and there to start the ball rolling. Many people are not aware of many of the factors used as considerations and going through the process a step at a time may give a better understanding of the background of traditional (and modern....Jacobson speaks of using neptune as a ruler) authors that are sited.



The first thing that is of the utmost importance in horary is the question. If the question is formed in such a way that it isn't direct, that may give conflicting answers. The question is asked when the querent (person asking the question) can not wait another moment to know.... and at that point takes the responsibility (via Lily) to own the question and the answer regardless what it may be. Sometimes there is confusion when questions are asked in a negative or double negative fashion. If you get a positive answer, that would mean no then, and very confusing. So framing a question is of utmost importance. Questions that are subjective are the hardest to answer as a black and white yes or no may not be possible if the answer is a shade of grey (this often is our romance horarys where we can not get an actual concrete measure on emotions or feelings) If the querent is asking a frivolous question, or has tampered with the results, or in some cases of yesteryear the Astrologer is being tested... the chart will show that in where the Ascendant is or in where planets land. Defining who asked the question is the problem that I have been seeing often. A question is asked about may be a daughter..... we need to know if the daughter asked the question or if the parent did, not just who asks us, where did the question originate. The time is absolutely paramount. A few moments off and the whole dynamic of the chart has changed. If you do not remember the time, don't bother, the chart won't work. Rewording questions already asked of a horarist will only produce ill working charts. The original chart that was done probably will contain the answer you are looking for.


Okay, so this question....

First we need a bit of the background. It is important, it allows knowledge of which houses are to be used. It seems a bit of cheating, but it isn't. (an example, the 12th house means many things. I had a friend ask where his friend was once, and got the 12th. I knew the man worked with spiritualist and said he is like at a seance... if I didn't know that, the 12th in horary is known for darker things) so knowing the history gives us a better chance to interpret correctly.

In this horary.... the question was "Where is Brandon's backpack?" asked on April 12, 2010 at 8:23 PM in Colorado Springs, Colorado. The background... the question was asked by my Sister. Brandon is an ex employee of my sister and a friend and sometimes a bit more (he is 23 and my 44 year old sister is a cougar roar) Brandon has been living homeless for a week in a ditch. His last place (ex) kicked him out for drinking. Brandon know lives on my couch while he goes to AA meetings and works. His back pack contains his court papers requiring signatures from the AA officials. It is imperative he finds the backpack and they had spent the day scouring the ditch and field and in desperation, my sister asked the question. She looked at the clock immediately so she could record the time. I was asked the question the following day.

The first thing is to get the correct chart. Regiomontanus is the chart style best used with horary. We have had recent horarys that were cast in placideus and when changed over were able to be read and lost items found exactly where predicted. (yay Fensi) Now the next thing is to decide if the chart is readable. I, myself tend to agree with Frawley and Ivy Goldstien Jacobson that both feel every chart is readable. Others use the strictures and considerations. Honestly, if your particular horarist thinks it is not readable, don't push them, it is not for them, they are following rules and guidelines that not everyone does. Now, I am confident that my sister asked the question, not Brandon and not I. So I will give her the first house as her significator... and the lord of the house is Mars. Now if I asked the question, I would be the first house and would assign her the 3rd house, as that is the one for siblings.... and if Brandon had asked, he would get the first house..... I am leaving this at this point. I would love for those who use considerations or strictures to go over the chart and see if it is radical (readable) and post that information.

See you in a few days!
The chart is in the first few degrees. Lilly says "if first few degress ascend, the matter is not yet ripe for judgement." Personally, I would have waited and asked again. However, with that said there was obviously an outcome hence the posting.

Mars, your sister is sitting on the MC, which seems appropriate. Since she asked the question about him and they were in a relationship, I will give the Sun, natural ruler of men and placed in the 6th house of employess to him. Moon the last aspect the Moon made was a separation from her(Mars), again seemingly appropriate. Before that, it opposed Saturn so I wonder...did he leave the backpack at a friends? Not sure what would rule the backpack...Also, Moon is in the 5th house of recreation and sex. It makes me wonder if he was with someone else, an older person and left it there. I don't know, this chart is a little difficult for me.
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Unread 04-21-2010, 04:30 AM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

May we discuss the outcome now? :3
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Unread 04-21-2010, 04:06 PM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

EJ, It's an interesting set of observations, but the question was where is the Backpack. Using this technique, do you think you could have located it? Would you have *seen* the menage a trois?
The thing is with horary that's it often easy and fun to understand in hindsight what story the chart is telling.
Sometimes it's literal, and sometimes symbolic.
Now, had his significator been in his h12, my suspicions would have been alerted that something was being hidden. I can understand that having his sig and the backpack's sig close to each other in an angular house can mean a few things...in a place he has a right to be or often is.If we use h7 to represent h1's house of *open enemies*, another meaning of h7,we could see a possible complication involving a woman..
I'm totally impressed by the distance technique you explained, Wintersprite. I intend to follow up on that.How useful will that be for locating objects lost away from home!
In this case I think by narrowing it down geographically, it opened your mind to possibilities as to *whose place could he have left it at* which led you to deduce the rest.
I'm sure I'd have never worked that out just from the chart.I got confused by too much Venus activity! And that's even part of the story.
One thing I don't really understand about the chart though, is that this guy's sig, venus is in a strong position (angular, in sign of rulership,)and he's also hiding something.
His h12 of secrets/self-undoing etc is ruled by Mars-the querent.I think I may have
interpreted that (wrongly) to mean that the querent is what he is hiding, but it means in fact, something he is hiding from the querent.
I notice the moon's right on the cusp of his h12 too, about to light up that house of secrets, when you think about it.The moon being in Mars' sign links it to the querent's involvement.
One question I have is, what signifies the person whose place the backpack was?
Is she Venus too?

I think this chart was difficult.But I am learning a lot from it.
Cheers
Lilly
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Unread 04-21-2010, 07:34 PM
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Re: Horary Exercise known outcome aka Elephant in the Room exhibit A

Quote:
Originally Posted by lillyjgc
...The thing is with horary that's it often easy and fun to understand in hindsight what story the chart is telling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ53 View Post
But...is the purpose of horary for the astrologer to have fun, Lilly...or is it to resolve the question through astrological analysis and interaction with the querent?

EJ
Lilly didn't specify that the purpose of horary was "to have fun". She said "in hindsight", i.e. recognizing your mistakes or what have you after you know the answer and that "fun" aspect of it.

But yes, the purpose is to see the answer, not to have fun.

R
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Last edited by RayAustin; 04-21-2010 at 07:43 PM.
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