Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

ardentika

Well-known member
You don't know me, my history, or my thought processes. You make a lot of assumptions, and my perception is that you believe what makes you comfortable. It's your life, do what you want, but don't expect me to buy into it. I come here for astrology, not fantasy, philosophy, psychology, or 'new age'. Structure and discipline work.

Everyone believes what makes them comfortable. I'm not here to persuade you ,we were just debating and I was just answering. In the end your belief is your free will.
 

ardentika

Well-known member
That's all a Piscean ever does. :biggrin:

Haha yup! I'd include all mutable signs. Actually I think this counts for every person regardless of signs. I've seen it times and times again. Fixed signs tend to find it harder to change their opinions and they seem to get stuck in stubbornness at times. However once they adopt a position outlook, it's there for life. Nothing can shake it. Cardinal energy somewhere in the middle of mutable and fixed. They tend to be very sure about their beliefs however if it doesn't work they are quick to change.

Perspective is quite the interesting tool. I've observed it in myself and many others. The more people focus on the negative the more they see that and somehow get themselves in negative situations. Same for positive outlook. And that doesn't mean the negative is being ignored, it's just not much focus goes there. Whenever something negative happens, the mind quickly switches to "Okay, how can I make this positive ? What can I do to have the best outcome from this situation?"
I wouldn't call this pink glasses syndrome. I think it's quite realistic.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Haha yup! I'd include all mutable signs. Actually I think this counts for every person regardless of signs. I've seen it times and times again. Fixed signs tend to find it harder to change their opinions and they seem to get stuck in stubbornness at times. However once they adopt a position outlook, it's there for life. Nothing can shake it. Cardinal energy somewhere in the middle of mutable and fixed. They tend to be very sure about their beliefs however if it doesn't work they are quick to change.

Perspective is quite the interesting tool. I've observed it in myself and many others. The more people focus on the negative the more they see that and somehow get themselves in negative situations. Same for positive outlook. And that doesn't mean the negative is being ignored, it's just not much focus goes there. Whenever something negative happens, the mind quickly switches to "Okay, how can I make this positive ? What can I do to have the best outcome from this situation?"
I wouldn't call this pink glasses syndrome. I think it's quite realistic.

Seems like Virgoans prefer uncomfortable beliefs for their self-fulfillment. Have you noticed that to be the case? Possibly Capricorns as well.
 

ardentika

Well-known member
Seems like Virgoans prefer uncomfortable beliefs for their self-fulfillment. Have you noticed that to be the case? Possibly Capricorns as well.

Not really. Depends in which area of life it is. Virgos are naturally very anxious and impatient ,I've seen quite a few who always believe things will work out for the best and they do. I've seen that even more with Capricorns , I think it has to do something with their ruler Saturn representing lessons and timing. I myself am Capricorn and Saturn dominant . It's Saturn who taught me that all things happen for a reason and often it's for our highest good, even if it doesn't seem like that at the moment. But every time I go back to something that failed due to Saturn restrictions and limitations and I think .. **** thank God it happened this way or it didn't happen at all. I see links of how if certain events happepened when I wanted them to, I wouldn't have had an opportunity for something better .
I think our conscious minds don't always see the bigger picture and that's fine. That's where programming comes into play. And subconscious programing is pretty much belief system. Some people of course have to work harder on that. Even tho I'm a leo moon and being optimistic comes naturally to me, I still struggled a lot to see my own pattern and my own negative self fulfilling beliefs.
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
I have a story to tell you about a young man who wanted admission to the gurukul.
It concerns palm reading.

Palm reading, like at least psychological astrology, usually has two sides: a genetic side - what you are given at birth - and an epigenetic side - or what you have done with what you are given.

The young man's palm showed he didn't have the desired line as a birth potential.

So he was rejected by the guru who considered that he was only acting in accordance with what was fated and shown to one who could read the signs.
The young man carved the line into his palm with a knife.
The guru admitted him into the school, and the young man went on to standardize Sanskrit grammar.

http://www.moral-stories.com/2012/01/paninis-palm.html

I'm hearing this strange story about Panini for the first time. It may be true, may not be true but like a myth there is an underlying meaning which I don't think need to be explained. Someone who completely believes in deterministic universe might say Panini was supposed to cut a line in his palm and there is no way to counter argue with such a statement except through personal experience. I don't hold the position that universe is completely deterministic we are machines but fate and free will together play out the dynamics, in traditional fate has a lot of power to influence events while in modern free will has more power. This statement I believe to be completely true.
 

david starling

Well-known member
I'm hearing this strange story about Panini for the first time. It may be true, may not be true but like a myth there is an underlying meaning which I don't think need to be explained. Someone who completely believes in deterministic universe might say Panini was supposed to cut a line in his palm and there is no way to counter argue with such a statement except through personal experience. I don't hold the position that universe is completely deterministic we are machines but fate and free will together play out the dynamics, in traditional fate has a lot of power to influence events while in modern free will has more power. This statement I believe to be completely true.

No question that Trad is more fate-oriented. It's best described as "pessimistic realism". :biggrin:
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
I have predicted the future too! Quite a few times. It actually gave me a better understanding. I was learning to read cards and people kept asking me about the future, I was quite scared ,esp the first few times after things happened the exact way cards showed me. I see the future sort of as the outcome of certain decision we made on a deeper level or work we put in.


Understanding that a particular decision caused few things to happen is possible only in hind sight after the events have passed. As humans are wired to find meaning in everything and from there console themselves when things turn to be real bad. There is a danger in it as humans are not very intelligent to pin point the exact reason for something dreadful that had happened to them with 100% accuracy considering several other factors are always at play.

And if you know your future and you do not take any effort to change it either you unconsciouly know that you can't override fate or you think you can handle whatever happens which depends on your level of awareness.


Einstein believed that all has happened already from the big bang to the destruction of our kind and earth, and our brains are just slowing it down to process it. Jung believes that astrology only shows our characters but not our fate, which o believe too.


Not a fan of Einstein, find him to be grossly overrated one. I read that he was influenced by the works of Blavatsky. I find there is some element of truth in it as Blavatsky's works explain so many things from creation to complex concepts in science.

A big fan of Jung and I think what he said that our unconscious becomes our fate if we don't pay attention to it and work with it is definitely valid for people with higher levels of awareness who are undisturbed by whatever happens in their lives.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
No doubt in that as traditional astrology falls under Saturn's dominion as every other ancient thing is and people wonder why it is pessimistic realism.:happy:

The Greco-Roman Age was under Zeus/Jupiter's dominion. In fact, the ancient Greeks believed Cronos/Saturn had been defeated and imprisoned within the Earth.
 

david starling

Well-known member
All right, here's the prime example: The Aquarian Age. Modernists believe it will be ruled by upbeat, quirky, rule-breaking Uranian influence, whereby the sky's the limit. Traditionalists have the gloomy opinion that Saturn will rule it, ushering in an Age of doom and gloom.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Yes indeed and Saturn is biding time to come back to his former glory.

You haven't read my (very) Modernistic opinion that the famous sidereal Age of Pisces, ruled by Neptune, is concurrent with a tropical Age of Capricorn, Saturn-ruled and nearing its amped-up ending. The sidereal is more spiritual in nature, the tropical is more mundane. Saturn, in that view, is setting the standard for what's real and what's imaginary, and is responsible for the hegemony of modern materialistic science.
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
All right, here's the prime example: The Aquarian Age. Modernists believe it will be ruled by upbeat, quirky, rule-breaking Uranian influence, whereby the sky's the limit.. Traditionalists have the gloomy opinion that Saturn will rule it, ushering in an Age of doom and gloom.


Again yes and I believe Saturn's glory will be back. Even though he is a big cruel giant $%^*head and he makes me miserable, I wish I had such power to destroy things on massive scale. :devil:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Understanding that a particular decision caused few things to happen is possible only in hind sight after the events have passed. As humans are wired to find meaning in everything and from there console themselves when things turn to be real bad. There is a danger in it as humans are not very intelligent to pin point the exact reason for something dreadful that had happened to them with 100% accuracy considering several other factors are always at play.

And if you know your future and you do not take any effort to change it either you unconsciouly know that you can't override fate or you think you can handle whatever happens which depends on your level of awareness.

Not a fan of Einstein, find him to be grossly overrated one.
I read that he was influenced by the works of Blavatsky.
I find there is some element of truth in it
as Blavatsky's works explain so many things
from creation to complex concepts in science.

A big fan of Jung and I think what he said that our unconscious becomes our fate if we don't pay attention to it and work with it is definitely valid for people with higher levels of awareness who are undisturbed by whatever happens in their lives.
Physics that challenges Einstein :smile:
- why Einstein was wrong about relativity
https://www.newscientist.com/round-up/challenging-einstein/
 

lostinstars

Well-known member
You haven't read my (very) Modernistic opinion that the famous sidereal Age of Pisces, ruled by Neptune, is concurrent with a tropical Age of Capricorn, Saturn-ruled and nearing its amped-up ending. The sidereal is more spiritual in nature, the tropical is more mundane. Saturn, in that view, is setting the standard for what's real and what's imaginary, and is responsible for the hegemony of modern materialistic science.

I read your earlier post but don't know what other opinion you are talking about. And what exactly you mean by concurrent? Of course Saturn is responsible for everything we experience and it is even claimed that all the great things that have advanced humankind (probably by melancholics) are because of only one planet Saturn. Reasons could be anything but people with strong Saturn are forced to focus on one thing till they acquire mastery and mastery takes time like years and decades, astrology, alchemy, magic, anything that takes time has to be dealt with Saturn's discipline and growth.
 

david starling

Well-known member
I read your earlier post but don't know what other opinion you are talking about. And what exactly you mean by concurrent? Of course Saturn is responsible for everything we experience and it is even claimed that all the great things that have advanced humankind (probably by melancholics) are because of only one planet Saturn. Reasons could be anything but people with strong Saturn are forced to focus on one thing till they acquire mastery and mastery takes time like years and decades, astrology, alchemy, magic, anything that takes time has to be dealt with Saturn's discipline and growth.

The problem is those who can't handle Saturn's relentless, driving influence, and become monsters in human form. They rule the world, not the wise ones.
 
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