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  #1  
Unread 04-08-2018, 09:05 AM
PlutorisingLee PlutorisingLee is offline
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Prenatal epoch calculation

Going to do this...
Please guide me- I'm attempting to do the calculation but completely lost.
Following the steps in link:http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm.

Four Laws of the Epoch
How do I determine what Moon it is? I think I was born on a full Moon according to the date and having Moon opposing Sun.
Above horizon/below? From link.

Quote:
When making the count, count to the Ascendant (AC) when the Moon is increasing in light, and to the Descendant (DC) when the Moon is decreasing in light. Another more definite way of stating this would be: In orders Nos. 1 and 4 the distance in degrees of the Moon from the horizon last crossed (AC or DC), divided by thirteen, gives "x", or the number of days by which this period is decreased; and in orders Nos. 2 and 3 the distance of the Moon in degrees from the horizon which it is approaching, divided by thirteen, gives the number of days by which this period is increased.
What do I even do here? First, determine the Moon and then...Help.

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Unread 04-08-2018, 09:36 AM
PlutorisingLee PlutorisingLee is offline
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Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

So cool
This is probably very inaccurate but still curious...Let's say, for instance, I substructed 10/9 weeks from my birthday until I reached a chart that has an Ascendant in the same sign as my Moon and degree as Ascendant.
The time reached can still be applied to my chart for rectification?
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  #3  
Unread 04-08-2018, 11:36 AM
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Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlutorisingLee View Post
Going to do this...
Please guide me- I'm attempting to do the calculation but completely lost.
Following the steps in link:http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm.

Four Laws of the Epoch
How do I determine what Moon it is? I think I was born on a full Moon according to the date and having Moon opposing Sun.
Above horizon/below? From link.

What do I even do here? First, determine the Moon and then...Help.
Need to view natal chart to form an opinon
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  #4  
Unread 04-08-2018, 05:55 PM
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Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Need to view natal chart to form an opinon
Here it is
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  #5  
Unread 04-08-2018, 10:37 PM
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Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlutorisingLee View Post

Going to do this...
Please guide me- I'm attempting to do the calculation but completely lost.
Following the steps in link
:http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm.

Four Laws of the Epoch
How do I determine what Moon it is? I think I was born on a full Moon according to the date and having Moon opposing Sun.
Above horizon/below? From link.

What do I even do here?
First, determine the Moon and then
...Help.
according to the chart you posted
Moon is not yet full, but is approaching full
Moon is below horizon

QUOTE FROM THE FOUR LAWS OF THE EPOCH
at
http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm
'......3. When the Moon at birth is:
(a) increasing in light and below the horizon
or
(b) decreasing in light and above the horizon
the period of gestation is longer than the norm.....'

and so
according to The Four Laws of the Epoch
since the Moon at birth is increasing in light
i.e. not yet a Full Moon
and
is below the horizon
then
the period of gestation is longer than the norm


FOUR ORDERS OF THE EPOCH
in this case

3. Moon below horizon and increasing in light.......... 273 days plus x.

QUOTE FROM FOUR ORDERS OF THE EPOCH
http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm

'.....It is to be understood that the 273 days referred to
in the above table is the normal period of gestation
or nine solar or ten lunar months.
This normal period is increased or decreased
in accordance with the distance of the Moon
from either the Ascendant or Descendant
and "x" is a certain number of days corresponding to this distance
obtained by dividing the distance in degrees
by thirteen degrees
the latter being the average daily motion of the Moon.

When making the count, count to the Ascendant (AC) when the Moon is increasing in light

so next step
count the number of degrees
from the degree of the Natal Moon
to the Ascendant of the natal chart you posted
and then divide that by thirteen degrees

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  #6  
Unread 04-09-2018, 02:31 AM
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Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

For what it's worth, the Hellenistic astrologers did not make a distinction between increasing and decreasing Moon. Let say Cancer is the Ascendant.

Cancer - 273
Leo - 275 1/2
Virgo - 278
Libra - 280 1/2
Scorpio - 283
Sagittarius - 285 1/2
Capricorn below the horizon - 288
Capricorn above the horizon - 258
Aquarius - 260 1/2
Pisces - 263
Aries - 265 1/2
Taurus - 268
Gemini - 270 1/2

Method on determining seven and eight month births are various, one (by Valens) is taking the Moon at the previous year and the following year and comparing their aspects to the natal Moon, the other (Hephaistio) uses the conception and natal sygyzys. Neither of their methods satisfy me. I think the placement and configurations of the Moon could indicate premature birth - https://www.astro.com/astro-databank...th_:_Premature

Hephaistio says that Antigonus rejects all such methods, which is quite curious.
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  #7  
Unread 04-09-2018, 08:20 AM
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Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
according to the chart you posted
[COLOR=Navy][B]Moon is not yet full, but is approaching full
Moon is below horizon
Thank you so much! I have always had two possible birth dates. One from hospital and the second from family. My intuition was always it was at least some minutes off. The wide range I'm working with now has the possibility of both Virgo and Libra Asc. I am almost 98% sure I'm Virgo. Nevertheless, the chart can still be very different depending on time. Between 13:00 -16:00 pm.
This is exactly what I needed to start putting it together.
So I'm looking at the AC not DC. "Ascendent becomes Moon?"
Quote:
so next step
count the number of degrees
from the degree of the Natal Moon
to the Ascendant of the natal chart you posted
and then divide that by thirteen degrees
I counted 12.43 degrees between natal Moon and Ascendent.
Next, divided thirteen degrees from it and ended up with 0.949? Does that make sense as my x?
(I'm not great at math) So now I have: 273 days+9 days? 282.

So..Now I go do a chart for that day (assuming it is correct) and look for a time when the Ascendent is same sign a as my Moon and same degree as my Ascendent?
What I don't get is how that works. Because I can find such a time within a range of a few dates other than the one calculated?
And sorry for this silly question but why is the calculation based on degree of a natal Ascendent that is not yet rectified?
I mean, I'm basing the calculation on my 22 Virgo rising that I'm not yet sure of.

Correct me if I'm doing this wrong.

Thank you again!
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Unread 04-09-2018, 08:23 AM
PlutorisingLee PlutorisingLee is offline
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Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

Oh and another thing: What else in the epoch chart can solidify the reached conclusion? Do the Moon/Sun/DC need to fit my parents or something in my natal?
It is all very fascinating.
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  #9  
Unread 04-09-2018, 12:14 PM
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Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlutorisingLee View Post

Oh and another thing:
What else in the epoch chart can solidify the reached conclusion?
Do the Moon/Sun/DC need to fit my parents or something in my natal?
It is all very fascinating.

Anyone whose Sun, Moon or ASC Sign responds
to parents Sun, Moon, ASC/any planet?

discussion thread at https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...ad.php?t=56093
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  #10  
Unread 04-09-2018, 12:23 PM
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Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

For what it's worth, the Hellenistic astrologers did not make a distinction between increasing and decreasing Moon. Let say Cancer is the Ascendant.

Cancer - 273
Leo - 275 1/2
Virgo - 278
Libra - 280 1/2
Scorpio - 283
Sagittarius - 285 1/2
Capricorn below the horizon - 288
Capricorn above the horizon - 258
Aquarius - 260 1/2
Pisces - 263
Aries - 265 1/2
Taurus - 268
Gemini - 270 1/2

Method on determining seven and eight month births are various, one (by Valens) is taking the Moon at the previous year and the following year and comparing their aspects to the natal Moon, the other (Hephaistio) uses the conception and natal sygyzys. Neither of their methods satisfy me. I think the placement and configurations of the Moon could indicate premature birth - https://www.astro.com/astro-databank...th_:_Premature

Hephaistio says that Antigonus rejects all such methods, which is quite curious.
thankyou for this useful information - I shall add it
to RECTIFICATION discussion thread
at
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51626
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  #11  
Unread 04-09-2018, 12:36 PM
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Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlutorisingLee View Post

Thank you so much!
I have always had two possible birth dates.
One from hospital and the second from family.
My intuition was always it was at least some minutes off.
The wide range I'm working with now
has the possibility of both Virgo and Libra Asc.
I am almost 98% sure I'm Virgo.
Nevertheless, the chart can still be very different depending on time.
Between 13:00 -16:00 pm.

This is exactly what I needed to start putting it together.
Pre natal epoch is certainly worth experimenting with
good news that it brings some clarity for you

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlutorisingLee View Post

So I'm looking at the AC not DC. "Ascendent becomes Moon?"
not necessarily
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlutorisingLee View Post

I counted 12.43 degrees between natal Moon and Ascendent.
Next, divided thirteen degrees from it and ended up with 0.949? Does that make sense as my x?
(I'm not great at math) So now I have: 273 days+9 days? 282.
That makes sense
EXCEPT THAT
0.949 IS NOT equivalent to nine days
INSTEAD
0.949 is a fraction of A DAY
in fact ALMOST A COMPLETE DAY

and so
now you would have: 273 days + one day
BUT ONLY IF
you had correctly counted the number of degrees between natal moon and ascendant
so
I just checked that
and I find there are forty-seven degrees - not 12.43

which changes the equation considerably

because
we now divide 47 degrees by 13 degrees = 3.61538461538 days

rounded up then
3.61538461538 days = THREE DAYS and just over twelve hours

so now you have 273 days plus three days and just over twelve hours

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlutorisingLee View Post

So..Now I go do a chart for that day (assuming it is correct) and look for a time when the Ascendent is same sign a as my Moon and same degree as my Ascendent?
What I don't get is how that works.
Because I can find such a time within a range of a few dates
other than the one calculated?
And sorry for this silly question
but why is the calculation based on degree of a natal Ascendent
that is not yet rectified?
I mean, I'm basing the calculation on my 22 Virgo rising that I'm not yet sure of.

Correct me if I'm doing this wrong.

Thank you again!
due to your unfamiliarity with use of pre-natal epoch
I noticed some inaccuracies to your calculations
and I highlighted those
so now
the chart to create is 273 days + 3 days and twelve hours
aka 276 days and twelve hours
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  #12  
Unread 04-09-2018, 01:45 PM
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Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

Whoa I really messed up the calculation! Thank you for correcting me and being so kind and taking the time . This is so important as a right chart can mean a make a life difference from a wrong one..
Quote:
I noticed some inaccuracies to your calculations
and I highlighted those
so now
the chart to create is 273 days + 3 days and twelve hours
aka 276 days and twelve hours
I substructed 276 days from my birth date and ended up with the date of August 13. Assuming a day starts at midnight I added another 12 hours and we have 12:00 pm. Which makes sense as I was born between 13-16 pm AND the ascendent was in Scorpio like my natal Moon!
Next, I played around until the Ascent was exactly 22:51 degrees (drum roll) resulting in the time of 13:23:13 for my birth. (about an hour off to the time I thought).

Before I stare in shock at the new possible chart: How accurate is this method do you think? to the minute?

What is the next step?
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  #13  
Unread 04-09-2018, 02:34 PM
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Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlutorisingLee View Post

Whoa I really messed up the calculation!
Thank you for correcting me and being so kind and taking the time .
This is so important as a right chart
can mean a make a life difference from a wrong one..

I substructed 276 days from my birth date
and ended up with the date of August 13.
Assuming a day starts at midnight I added another 12 hours
and we have 12:00 pm.
Which makes sense as I was born between 13-16 pm
AND the ascendent was in Scorpio like my natal Moon!
Ah ha! good that ascendant of possible prenatal epoch
is same as natal Moon
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Unread 04-09-2018, 02:39 PM
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Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlutorisingLee View Post

Next, I played around until the Ascent was exactly 22:51 degrees
(drum roll) resulting in the time of 13:23:13 for my birth.
(about an hour off to the time I thought).

Before I stare in shock at the new possible chart:
How accurate is this method do you think? to the minute?

What is the next step?
would you confirm
that location of Moon on 13 August
on date of the prenatal Epoch
was Virgo

and if so
would you state which degree of Virgo

the prenatal Epoch Virgo moon occupied
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Unread 04-09-2018, 02:55 PM
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Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
would you confirm
that location of Moon on 13 August
on date of the prenatal Epoch
was Virgo

and if so
would you state which degree of Virgo

the prenatal Epoch Virgo moon occupied
No, the Moon in the epoch chart is 4'55 Libra
Does that change things?
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Unread 04-09-2018, 03:13 PM
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Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlutorisingLee View Post

No, the Moon in the epoch chart is 4'55 Libra
Does that change things?

IF the prenatal Epoch rectification method IS RELIABLE
then
our calculations prove beyond a shadow of a doubt
that
IF your natal Moon is Scorpio
and you were born on the official birth time DAY of the week and MONTH of the YEAR
THEN
the implication is
your Ascendant is four degrees 55 minutes Libra
HOWEVER
my next request is that you create and post a new natal chart
with same date as your official date of birth
but with four degrees 55 minutes Libra rising
instead of Virgo
so that we can assess
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Unread 04-09-2018, 03:30 PM
PlutorisingLee PlutorisingLee is offline
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Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
IF the prenatal Epoch rectification method IS RELIABLE
then
our calculations prove beyond a shadow of a doubt
that
IF your natal Moon is Scorpio
and you were born on the official birth time DAY of the week and MONTH of the YEAR
THEN
the implication is
your Ascendant is four degrees 55 minutes Libra
HOWEVER
my next request is that you create and post a new natal chart
with same date as your official date of birth
but with four degrees 55 minutes Libra rising
instead of Virgo
so that we can assess
Oh I really hope it works! I'll try and be objective about the rising. Attaching a chart with libra Ascendent for date of birth.
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  #18  
Unread 04-09-2018, 04:37 PM
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Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlutorisingLee View Post

Oh I really hope it works! I'll try and be objective about the rising.
Attaching a chart with libra Ascendent for date of birth.

Objectivity is vital to the scientific method
and the method we are using is an ancient scientific method
based on the Moon
seems as if someone figured centuries past
that the Moon plays a big part with conception/birth et al
next step is to question
how plausible is it
that you were born at 15:28:03 on the day in question
instead of the earlier time
factors to consider are
to what extent was the original official time of birth "rounded up"
or "rounded down"
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Unread 04-09-2018, 04:58 PM
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Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlutorisingLee View Post

The wide range I'm working with now
has the possibility of both Virgo and Libra Asc.
I am almost 98% sure I'm Virgo.
Nevertheless, the chart can still be very different depending on time. Between 13:00 -16:00 pm.
Looking back over this thread I found that you allow a margin of three hours
i.e.
between 13:00 - 16:00
and given the three hour margin
your Libra ascendant chart is certainly within the realms of possibility
HOWEVER
4 - 5 degrees Libra is a very early ascendant
worth questioning
because
if the actual time of birth were just twenty minutes earlier
then
you may well have a late Virgo ascendant
so next step is
return to your pre-natal Epoch chart
and check
whether you can find a Scorpio Ascendant with the Moon in late degree of Virgo
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  #20  
Unread 04-09-2018, 05:20 PM
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Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Looking back over this thread I found that you allow a margin of three hours
i.e.
between 13:00 - 16:00
and given the three hour margin
your Libra ascendant chart is certainly within the realms of possibility
HOWEVER
4 - 5 degrees Libra is a very early ascendant
worth questioning
because
if the actual time of birth were just twenty minutes earlier
then
you may well have a late Virgo ascendant
so next step is
return to your pre-natal Epoch chart
and check
whether you can find a Scorpio Ascendant with the Moon in late degree of Virgo
Oh wow looks like no. On the date of August 13 a Moon in Virgo would not be possible with an Ascendent in Scorpio.
BUT on the date of August 12 a late Virgo Moon and Scorpio rising are possible around 1:50 pm BUT with the scorpio rising being later and not matching the degree.
(Hospital time was 14:32 but my family all said later. Even so the hospital record is not 13 pm)
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  #21  
Unread 04-09-2018, 07:35 PM
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Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlutorisingLee View Post


Oh wow looks like no.
On the date of August 13
a Moon in Virgo would not be possible with an Ascendent in Scorpio.
BUT on the date of August 12 a late Virgo Moon and Scorpio rising
are possible around 1:50 pm
BUT with the scorpio rising being later and not matching the degree.
(Hospital time was 14:32 but my family all said later.
Even so the hospital record is not 13 pm)

So the hospital time was 14:32 but your family all said later
which makes sense
because
the rectified time using pre-natal rectification method
aka Trutine of Hermes
places your time of birth as having been at 15:32
LITERALLY a one hour difference almost to the minute
between the rectified time of 15:28:03
and the hospital record of 14:32
and agrees with your family

which raises the question of human error
and so
consider the possibility
that a member of staff at the hospital noted your time of birth
as 14:32
instead of 15:32
what are the chances of member of staffs watch being an hour slow
or the clock on the hospital wall being an hour slow
or that the member of staff simply misread the time
or whoever read the time written by the member of staff
read a 2pm for a 3pm and wrote 14:32 instead of 15:32
or
you probably were not the sole newborn at that hospital
another newborn was born an hour before you were born
and the member of staff got the times of birth switched
hospitals are busy places
to be objective
one needs to consider the various possibilites
impartially

also check
if there are any family members with Libra Sun or Libra Moon
or Virgo Sun or Virgo Moon
or Libra ascendant or Virgo Ascendant
or Libra Descendant or Virgo Descendant
or Libra MC or Virgo MC
or Libra IC or Virgo IC
or any one of the seven visible planets
i.e.
Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter or Saturn
in Libra or Virgo


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PlutorisingLee (04-09-2018)
  #22  
Unread 04-09-2018, 08:10 PM
PlutorisingLee PlutorisingLee is offline
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Posts: 282
Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
[COLOR=Navy][B]So the hospital time was 14:32 but your family all said later
which makes sense
because
the rectified time using pre-natal rectification method
aka Trutine of Hermes
places your time of birth as having been at 15:32
LITERALLY a one hour difference almost to the minute
between the rectified time of 15:28:03
and the hospital record of 14:32
and agrees with your family
Your right it is very curious! it does look like an hour difference to the minute which would be quite a coincidence? I think. On the other hand, the hospital time sounds so precise doesn't it.

Quote:
which raises the question of human error
and so
consider the possibility
that a member of staff at the hospital noted your time of birth
as 14:32
instead of 15:32
what are the chances of member of staffs watch being an hour slow
or the clock on the hospital wall being an hour slow
or that the member of staff simply misread the time
or whoever read the time written by the member of staff
read a 2pm for a 3pm and wrote 14:32 instead of 15:32
or
you probably were not the sole newborn at that hospital
another newborn was born an hour before you were born
and the member of staff got the times of birth switched
hospitals are busy places
to be objective
one needs to consider the various possibilites
impartially
Humans do make mistakes but an entire hour...That seems a lot. Not impossible though...When I asked my mother at first she did say 15:30-16:00, my dad remembers it as being earlier but he was not sure.
I guess the hospital staff couldn't know I would be interested in Astrology
Quote:
also check
if there are any family members with Libra Sun or Libra Moon
or Virgo Sun or Virgo Moon
or Libra ascendant or Virgo Ascendant
or Libra Descendant or Virgo Descendant
or Libra MC or Virgo MC
or Libra IC or Virgo IC
or any one of the seven visible planets
i.e.
Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter or Saturn
in Libra or Virgo
I did as you suggested and found:
Mother:Has a Libra Moon/DC
Father:Very probably a Virgo Ascendent
Do brothers count?
My sister has Jupiter in Libra and DC in Virgo,
My brother has no Libra and no Virgo.

What else can I check?
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JUPITERASC (04-09-2018)
  #23  
Unread 04-09-2018, 08:14 PM
petosiris's Avatar
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 3,098
Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

Can you share your place of birth (I can find it using the quadrant MC and the Moon's degree, but that would be tedious)? Maybe personal message it to me.
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JUPITERASC (04-09-2018)
  #24  
Unread 04-09-2018, 08:19 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 52,486
Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Can you share your place of birth
(I can find it using the quadrant MC and the Moon's degree, but
that would be tedious)? Maybe personal message it to me.

Place of birth is on the rectified chart uploaded at this post

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...2&postcount=17
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petosiris (04-09-2018)
  #25  
Unread 04-09-2018, 08:22 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 52,486
Re: Prenatal epoch calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlutorisingLee View Post

Your right it is very curious!
it does look like an hour difference to the minute
which would be quite a coincidence? I think.
On the other hand, the hospital time sounds so precise doesn't it.

Humans do make mistakes but an entire hour...
That seems a lot.
clocks go forward an entire hour in Spring annually
if it was a not very modern hospital
perhaps the clocks had not yet been put forward

There are other issues with time as well
depending on location relevant to GMT
__________________
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