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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 01-04-2018, 07:51 PM
snowcat snowcat is offline
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The Pre-Natal Epoch

Anyone know about the following?

The Pre-Natal Epoch
by Darrelyn Gunzburg

The Pre-Natal Epoch is a very ancient concept. Known as the Trutine of Hermes, or the Trutina Hermetis, and attributed to Hermes Trismegistus, it is cited in the 51st Centiloquy of Ptolemy’s Tetrabiblos but is now generally considered to have been written in the 10th century by the Arabic astrologer Ja’far Ahmet ibn Yusuf ibn Ibrahim al-daya.

The Trutine of Hermes, as cited in Ptolemy, is:

Make the sign occupied by the Moon at the time of birth the ascending sign at the conception; and consider that in which she may be posited at the conception, or the opposite one, as the sign ascending at the birth.

Simply put, the Trutine is the relationship between a normal period of gestation (approximately nine months before birth) and the moment of birth, depending on the Moon and the lunar rhythm. This sets up a correlation between the chart for the moment of conception and the chart for the moment of first breath, as the physical body separates from the body of the mother.

More here: http://www.darrelyngunzburg.com/PDFs/PreNatalEpoch.pdf

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Unread 01-05-2018, 06:22 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch

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Originally Posted by snowcat View Post

Anyone know about the following?

The Pre-Natal Epoch
by Darrelyn Gunzburg

The Pre-Natal Epoch is a very ancient concept. Known as the Trutine of Hermes, or the Trutina Hermetis, and attributed to Hermes Trismegistus, it is cited in the 51st Centiloquy of Ptolemy’s Tetrabiblos but is now generally considered to have been written in the 10th century by the Arabic astrologer Ja’far Ahmet ibn Yusuf ibn Ibrahim al-daya.

The Trutine of Hermes, as cited in Ptolemy, is:

Make the sign occupied by the Moon at the time of birth the ascending sign at the conception; and consider that in which she may be posited at the conception, or the opposite one, as the sign ascending at the birth.

Simply put, the Trutine is the relationship between a normal period of gestation (approximately nine months before birth) and the moment of birth, depending on the Moon and the lunar rhythm. This sets up a correlation between the chart for the moment of conception and the chart for the moment of first breath, as the physical body separates from the body of the mother.

More here: http://www.darrelyngunzburg.com/PDFs/PreNatalEpoch.pdf
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  #3  
Unread 01-19-2018, 01:14 AM
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petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: The Pre-Natal Epoch

This technique goes back to Petosiris, because it appears in a few Hellenistic authors who quote him for that - Valens, Ptolemy, Porphyry and Hephaistio come to mind. However, it is not clear what was its use, as it does not appear to be rectification (obviously knowing the natal chart is at least a few times easier than the conception chart). Ptolemy used it as showing the health of the mother and child during pregnancy, but I often ask what is the point when you can do a conception chart only after birth.

According to Porphyry, Petosiris used a different method from Antiochus. It involved taking the rising zoidion or its opposite as the conception zoidion of the Moon, and the natal Moon zoidion or its opposite as the rising zoidion. If you know the term you were born in, it is easy to proceed, but the instructions are not clear if you don't know the term. Valens' complex approach in Book I gives a different result.

The trutine follows Porphyry, but of course elaborates on how to decide whether it is the same or opposite zoidion. If you try to do it to the degree, it appears to be a valid rectification method, but I remain unconvinced. The Moon changes signs too quickly for this to be always valid statistically, though it is curious that my natal chart goes from 1:20 to 0:40 which sounds very similar in my language - ''i.e. 1 with 20 vs. 1 without 20''. The sign does not change and I do not use quadrants in time lord techniques, nor does the ASC appear to be hyleg, so it does not matter to me.

Although it could have been a significant matter for Petosiris and Antiochus when the neither the Sun nor the Moon were hyleg, because they would need to know precise degree of the ASC (if the degrees and not the places were meant). So rectification could have been one of the uses.
Knowing the precise degree of the Moon was very hard at that time - at one point Valens talks about the calculations of the Moon by Apollinarius being off by a degree, and he says ''establish the precise degree of a star by noting its natural effects as the Ancient says.''. They were constantly rectifying the degrees of the planets, because one degree can equal more than a year in the length of life technique. Now that I think about it, it is possible that Valens used the Critodemus monomoiria technique to find out the exact degree.

Last edited by petosiris; 01-19-2018 at 01:54 AM.
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