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  #1  
Unread 10-26-2009, 09:03 AM
EJ53 EJ53 is offline
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Education in Schools - Age Range

In the UK, children must be a minimum of 5 years old before they can formally attend school.....and there is only one annual intake, for all those who are that age on the first day of the first term in each school year.

So, let's suppose we have two children......one born on Ist September 1993 and the other born on 31st August 1994......both of whom started school on 31st August 1994, the first day of the school year in which they were aged 5......Thus, these two are in the same school year/educational class and being taught at exactly the same level despite having an age gap between them of 12 months.

Then, let's assume both children have an IQ of 100 and that this is the average for the class/year/annual intake......So the younger child will always be at the bottom of the class and the older at the top, despite the fact that both are "average".......(although the apparent difference will gradually reduce as the children get older)

Now......the problem with this here in the UK is that neither children nor parents are advised of this in-built bias......So, by the time they leave school, younger children are viewed as below and older children as above the true academic average of their particular school year......Which influences the career opportunities available to them.

Clearly, this is a serious flaw in the Educational System that has not been adequately addressed since before I started school some 55 years.....But, my question to forum members is "Do you raise this issue when producing astrology analyses on children still at school" and, if so, how do you advise the report recipient to deal with it?


Last edited by EJ53; 10-26-2009 at 09:47 AM.
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  #2  
Unread 10-29-2009, 12:54 PM
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Re: Education in Schools - Age Range

Quote:
Clearly, this is a serious flaw in the Educational System that has not been adequately addressed since before I started school some 55 years.....But, my question to forum members is "Do you raise this issue when producing astrology analyses on children still at school" and, if so, how do you advise the report recipient to deal with it?
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This is new to me EJ, cos the schools usually intake 2x a year, Jan & sept. When has this been changed, do you know? Plus my kids started are 4.5 not 5...
Personally I don't do childrens charts, but I suppose if the child were about to leave school it may be worth mentioning...
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Unread 10-29-2009, 02:59 PM
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Re: Education in Schools - Age Range

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Originally Posted by astrologer50 View Post
This is new to me EJ, cos the schools usually intake 2x a year, Jan & sept. When has this been changed, do you know? Plus my kids started are 4.5 not 5...
Thanks for replying A50.

There is a "reception year" for 4+ year-olds.....It has a "normal intake" in September and a "deferred intake" in January of the following year, plus a "delayed intake" who do not attend this year at all.......However, all of these children will formally start school together on the first day of term in "Year1".

Quote:
...Personally I don't do childrens charts, but I suppose if the child were about to leave school it may be worth mentioning
I always point out that, if a child at the younger end of the school year appears to be struggling (or average) academically, this might be due to the age gap rather than an intellectual gap......And I've seen significant improvements in the subsequent performance/confidence of these children after that has been explained to them.

With the older end children, it's more difficult......since it involves pointing out that they might not be as intellectually able as the school system has led them to believe, which might damage their self-confidence......Yet I feel the issue has to be raised, particularly if there are signs that the individual is inclined to "coast" rather than work hard.
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Unread 11-14-2009, 09:02 PM
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Re: Education in Schools - Age Range

I'm glad you care about the little ones, EJ.

I understand your point, and yes, I think it is worth consideration.
I think this depends on how relavent to life schooling is. If school were an extension of what you learn outside school then your point is very valid.

Physical maturity though, is more than just years, the genetics of each individual child could mean that some are a year or two behind physically anyway. However, those who are younger in the year group AND physically younger could be as much as three years behind from the very start. This could seriously retard their future development.

However, I cannot take as much an interest in this as yourself because of how I feel about schooling. The formula for shcools is advertised as being Intelligence+Effort=Sucess. I think this, for modern schooling anyway, is entirely false. I think the entire system must be abolished if it were to be considered in any way fair. If more people understood 'dyslexia' properly, they would agree with me.
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Unread 11-15-2009, 02:12 AM
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Re: Education in Schools - Age Range

EJ,

Theoreticall this seems to be a flaw, but... I wonder if this actually plays out in reality??? Are there satistics to show younger kids in the year perform at a lower level?

I also have another thought... that everyone needs different experiences, and trying to control things so it is "fair" limits the flexibility of experience. If you attempt to put controls on are you promoted a specific point of view, not a universal one.... and is it the right thing to do, or the most truthful , or the kindest.

I am not sure that I have an answer.... I suppose I live my life with the universe my teacher... to a certain extent independent of human rule. The right experiences seem to come to me.... and I have gained from some of the most difficult that I would not have chosen.

having said all that... my brother nearly the youngest is much brighter that his school performance might have indicated... but the school system as whole is good for some kids.... but those who are more visually or kinesthetically gifted are not catered to well at all.

Rambling thoughts

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  #6  
Unread 11-15-2009, 08:51 AM
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Re: Education in Schools - Age Range

I think parents and teachers usually make good decisions when a child should start school. It all depends on the child, how he/she is developed physically, mentally, emotionally. It can be already easily seen at that age before school. Then, when in school, the children are usually given plenty of time to adjust to their grade. When I went to school there were kids with as much as 1.75 year difference in my class, and I did not notice any correlation between their actual age and their academic performance. And then the actual life started. One of the youngest kid in my class, who was about average academically, now runs Reebok in Russia. And the one of the eldest kids, who was always getting by just barely, now wrenches as a car mechanic for a living.

Perhaps giving my own example is a very weak argument. I am sure there are serious academic studies out there about the early childhood development and education that one can find if seriously interested. I just Googled and found that a good early (whatever early means) education, correlates to a later success in life.
http://www.naeyc.org/resources/research/earlylearning

Apparently sitting at home for another year could be worse than going to a good school early.
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  #7  
Unread 11-15-2009, 08:56 AM
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Re: Education in Schools - Age Range

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Originally Posted by Spungie View Post
...I think this depends on how relavent to life schooling is.
But do you think this age gap might knock the confidence of those at the younger end of the school year, Spungie?......And that making them aware of it will result in a more realistic comparison of themselves against others?......Or that having a more realistic assessment of self-worth would benefit them (as adults) in the workplace?

I'm not questioning the validity of the school intake system here......Only whether or not children/parents should be properly informed of it's potential effect.

Quote:
...the formula for schools is advertised as being Intelligence+Effort=Success. I think this, for modern schooling anyway, is entirely false. I think the entire system must be abolished if it were to be considered in any way fair. If more people understood 'dyslexia' properly, they would agree with me.
This is another issue/thread......but I agree (in principle) with your point......However, I'd focus on redefining the Education System's concept of "intelligence" rather than abolishing the formula......Dyslexia is but one of many conditions that result in our children being failed by the current system and it's obsession with left-brain performance measurements.

Quote:
Physical maturity though, is more than just years, the genetics of each individual child could mean that some are a year or two behind physically anyway. However, those who are younger in the year group AND physically younger could be as much as three years behind from the very start. This could seriously retard their future development.
Yes......but the child/parent/teacher will be aware of this and it's effects, without the need for a third-party/astrologer to point it out......Whereas the influence of the age-gap (imo) goes unrecognised.
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Unread 11-15-2009, 09:36 AM
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Re: Education in Schools - Age Range

Quote:
Originally Posted by flea View Post
...Theoretically this seems to be a flaw, but... I wonder if this actually plays out in reality??? Are there satistics to show younger kids in the year perform at a lower level?
I'm not aware of any official statistics, Flea......But, I'd be surprised if the Educationalist's are not "statistically aware" of the issue and accept (rightly imo) that we just have to live with the flaw.

It's how we live/deal with the flaw that I'm questioning......whether or not children/parents should be made aware of the potential effect of the age-gap......[If yes, then what is the effect on children at the older end of the school year?......since the message to them is "you may not be as bright as you appear to be".]

Quote:
...everyone needs different experiences, and trying to control things so it is "fair" limits the flexibility of experience.
I'm not advocating a change to the system......only to the awareness of those who are obliged to participate in it.

Quote:
I am not sure that I have an answer....
Me too......although I would not hesitate to explain the issue to the parent of a child at the younger end of the school year.

Quote:
...my brother nearly the youngest is much brighter than his school performance might have indicated...
Nevertheless, his performance at school probably influenced the careers/doors that were opened to him when he left the Education System.

Quote:
...the school system as whole is good for some kids.... but those who are more visually or kinesthetically gifted are not catered to well at all.
This is another issue/thread......but I agree fully with your point.

EJ
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  #9  
Unread 11-15-2009, 10:05 AM
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Re: Education in Schools - Age Range

Quote:
Originally Posted by C0rnholio View Post
I think parents and teachers usually make good decisions when a child should start school. It all depends on the child, how he/she is developed physically, mentally, emotionally. It can be already easily seen at that age before school.
In the UK though COrnholio, that decision is made by the law......Children here must start on the first day of the school year which commences after they reach the age of 5, whether or not parents/teachers consider them ready to do so.

Quote:
......When I went to school there were kids with as much as 1.75 year difference in my class, and I did not notice any correlation between their actual age and their academic performance.
But that might be because your education system grouped children by their "IQ age" rather than physical age.......Thus, the academic performance of a 5 year-old child with an IQ of 140 would equal that of a 7 year-old with an IQ of 100.....with the former (perhaps) going on to run Reebok and the latter becoming a car mechanic.

Quote:
...a good early (whatever early means) education, correlates to a later success in life.......Apparently sitting at home for another year could be worse than going to a good school early.
This is another issue/thread......but I agree fully with your point.
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  #10  
Unread 11-15-2009, 10:30 AM
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Re: Education in Schools - Age Range

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haizea View Post
In Spain children start school the year they are to become 3....and there can be a really huge difference between them as for understanding.......But, at that age they are so small that we cannot even talk about performing.
But what happens as they get older Haizea, when performance can be compared?......Does your neice remain in the same school year as your cousin's son; are they expected to achieve the same level of academic performance and are children/parents made aware of the potential effects of the age gap?

Quote:
...When I went to school at 5, they took me with the "best ones group" a year older......Later I have never proved to be above average, but at that time I just really enjoyed school, wanted to learn, was interested...so I did great.
But how do you know whether or not you are average?......Have you been tested for this?

Quote:
...children and people in general can do very well for some time, and terribly at a different period, or opposite. There are too many factors involved in learning.
This is another issue/thread......but I agree fully with your point.
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Unread 11-15-2009, 04:30 PM
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Re: Education in Schools - Age Range

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haizea View Post
EJ53, in any system you could think of, there would be children 364 days younger than others.
Yes Haizea......I'm not suggesting that the UK system should be changed......Only that children and parents should be made aware of the potential effects of the age-gap.
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Unread 11-15-2009, 07:02 PM
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Re: Education in Schools - Age Range

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Originally Posted by Haizea View Post
Some of us are telling you that we don't think the age-gap is important and there is no reason to worry about it, that some will learn faster than others regardless, and that learning faster is not either the final key to success in life or even in education.
I know Haizea......My questioning of that message doesn't mean I haven't heard or understood it......but rather that it conflicts with my observations of the increased self-confidence in those "younger-end" children whose parents have adopted my advice to explain the age-gap issue to them.
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  #13  
Unread 11-16-2009, 03:19 AM
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Re: Education in Schools - Age Range

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haizea View Post
EJ53, you must understand that you are thinking of a particular case, that we don't know about, and want to make a generalization, when our personal experiences tell us otherwise.
For information Haizea, I'm thinking of several children of my friends and family......all around 13/14 years old and regarded by teachers/parents as "academically inferior" to their classmates at the time of reading their charts some two or so years ago......Until then, this issue had never occurred to me and (if asked) I too would have said that there was no reason to worry about the age-gap between children in the same school year......Now though, I point the potential problem out in every UK chart I report upon......and have yet to encounter anyone who was aware of it before I did so......However I agree that not all "younger-end" children will have difficulty in keeping up at school with their older classmates, since there are other influential factors involved in that (such as IQ).

Thanks Haizea, and everyone else who has taken the trouble to comment on this thread......Your views will probably modify my own on this issue, although it might not seem so at the moment.

EJ
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Unread 11-17-2009, 02:58 PM
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Re: Education in Schools - Age Range

UPDATE

In response to Flea's point about statistics, I have now pursued this with my Local Education Authority; the UK Office of National Statistics (ONS); the Office for Standards in Education, Children's Services and Skills (OFSTED) and the Department of Children, Schools and Families (DCSF).

Initially, all advised that they were unaware of any statistics or potential problem relating to this issue......but I eventually found a Research Officer in the DCSF who advised that a study had been undertaken recently, and it concluded that children at the younger end of a school year seem not to "do as well" as children at the older end......However, even this officer was unable to give me any details (or information about where to find them), so I am still awaiting a response on that and (as yet) have no explanation of why the "Educational Authorities" that I've contacted were unaware of the statistical study.

[Thanks for the "heads up", Flea.]

EJ
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Unread 11-17-2009, 04:25 PM
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Re: Education in Schools - Age Range

Children are like little sponges, regardless of this small age difference.

However, I can see that this may cause some internal bias with the educators. Not due to performance, but due to ageism.

If you look at cultures across the board there is a definite treatment difference with those that are older, younger, same age and so on.

If it can happen with anyone, having preference for those who are older- thinking they are smarter, or younger thinking they are more fun and cute, then why couldnt this resonate over into academia?

I think that this is very plausible and can be very detrimental to a young mind that wants to soak up the information around them, that it could lead to some really awful esteem issues.
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Unread 11-17-2009, 07:04 PM
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Re: Education in Schools - Age Range

FURTHER UPDATE

The UK Department of Children, Schools and Families have now provided me with a copy of their report, entitled "When You Are Born Matters : The Impact of Date of Birth on Child Cognitive Outcomes in England"......a summary of which can be found at :-

http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/research/data...-CEE-04-07.pdf

(and the full report is at http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/research/data...EE-04-07FR.pdf)

I'd advise anyone with children to at least read the key findings of the summary report and ascertain what (if anything) is being done about it by their child's school/Local Education Authority.

EJ
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Unread 11-18-2009, 06:14 AM
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Re: Education in Schools - Age Range

Quote:
Originally Posted by smilingsteph View Post
...However, I can see that this may cause some internal bias with the educators. Not due to performance, but due to ageism......there is a definite treatment difference with those that are older, younger, same age and so on......having preference for those who are older- thinking they are smarter, or younger thinking they are more fun and cute......
Thanks Steph......I hadn't thought of this......but it is indeed another way in which the schoolyear age-gap can influence our perceived position in the "peer hierarchy"......with the "milk monitor" perhaps being at the older end of the class, and the "disruptive child" at the younger end......So, by the age of (say) 7, some children may already have been incorrectly identified as interested/disinterested in learning and/or responsible/irresponsible future adult members of society......thus giving them a "name to live up to" from then on.

Quote:
I think that this is very plausible and can be very detrimental to a young mind that wants to soak up the information around them, that it could lead to some really awful esteem issues.
Esteem issues arising solely from society's current lack of awareness concerning the (now statistically confirmed) adverse effects of being born in the "wrong" month......yet perhaps handicapping the child throughout it's adult life.
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Unread 12-05-2009, 08:38 PM
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Re: Education in Schools - Age Range

Aopolgies for taking so long to respond EJ.

I understand I'd began to drift off topic because on the subject of education everything else seems overshadowed by my own concerns. I agree with the response you gave. That was my point.
The assesments at school are more to do with testing childrens (lack of) will and rewarding them for being fed, well, BS.
Back to the subject.

I agree with you, however, at school most kids are very aware of their age within the year group. Especially in primary school. It would be good for the teachers and parents to consider the age gap more and consider it more during 'tests'.

Perhaps there are too few teachers. Children should have a closer bond with adults in general, they need a direction in life and need to learn respect. The ever increasing creche like situation in schools today mans that kids bring each other up. No wonder mainstream society is so simple.
SORRY! im doing it again. Perhaps I should Leave my peice at the door.

I agree with what you say EJ I can (apparently) say no more about the age gap.
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Unread 12-06-2009, 06:02 PM
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Re: Education in Schools - Age Range

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spungie View Post
...The assesments at school are more to do with testing childrens (lack of) will and rewarding them for being fed BS....
Yes......this is another of my concerns about the UK Education system......and one that I also point out in relevant astrological reports.

Quote:
...at school most kids are very aware of their age within the year group. Especially in primary school.
Over the last few years I've raised the issue with numerous parents and "educationalists", with their response invariably being the same as yours quoted above......Yet, when they've raised it with the child concerned, that assumption turned out not to be incorrect.

Quote:
...It would be good for the teachers and parents to consider the age gap more and consider it more during 'tests'.
The 2007 Summary Report recommends this, and concludes that "...there is a significant inequity that needs to be urgently addressed: August-born children are, on average, being penalised (in terms of cognitive outcomes) simply because of an unlucky birth draw. This is not acceptable on either equity or efficiency grounds, and steps should be taken to eliminate this penalty."

Quote:
...I can say no more about the age gap.
But, this gives me an opportunity to quote the Report's finding about the age gap :-
"...the major reason why August-born children perform significantly worse than September-born children in the Key Stage tests is simply that they are almost a year younger when they sit them......."



Last edited by EJ53; 12-06-2009 at 06:04 PM.
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Unread 12-12-2009, 05:59 AM
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Re: Education in Schools - Age Range

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Originally Posted by EJ53 View Post
...I'd advise anyone with children to at least read the key findings of the summary report and ascertain what (if anything) is being done about it by their child's school/Local Education Authority.
FURTHER UPDATE

1. In 2009, the National Foundation for Educational Research (NFER) published a report entitled "The Influence of Relative Age on Learner Attainment and Development"
http://www.nfer.ac.uk/nfer/publicati...%20development

One of it's key findings was......
"Pupils who are younger in the year group (known as ‘summer borns’ in the UK) do less well in attainment tests, are more frequently identified as having special educational needs and are more frequently referred to psychiatric services."

2. (Also in 2009) Cambridge Asssessment, University of Cambridge published a report entitled "Birthdate Effects : A Review of Literature from 1990 Onwards" http://www.cambridgeassessment.org.u...rthdate_d3.pdf

One of it's findings was......
"...Data from 13 LEAs providing GCSE results (undertaken in 1990 to 1994) revealed that birthdate effects were still very evident when all subjects were considered (Sharp, 1995). Summer-borns were the lowest attainers in 10 LEAs and Autumn-born children were the highest attainers in 9 of the Authorities......"
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