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  #701  
Unread 04-13-2020, 04:15 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

On this link, you can see a photograph of a lone man on Easter Sunday due to the closing of most churches & mosques (I think they are all closed) due to Corona-Virus concerns and distancing from each other.


Its probably the first time ever in Egypt this has been done in modern times, certainly on major holidays


https://egyptianchronicles.blogspot....ian+chronicles)

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  #702  
Unread 04-13-2020, 05:53 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Objection 2. Further, there is no place above the heavens, as is proved in De Coelo i. But every body must occupy a place. Therefore Christ's body did not ascend above all the heavens.
Aquinas or the schoolman who wrote by his name replies in the following way:

Quote:
Reply to Objection 2. A place implies the notion of containing; hence the first container has the formality of first place, and such is the first heaven. Therefore bodies need in themselves to be in a place, in so far as they are contained by a heavenly body. But glorified bodies, Christ's especially, do not stand in need of being so contained, because they draw nothing from the heavenly bodies, but from God through the soul. So there is nothing to prevent Christ's body from being beyond the containing radius of the heavenly bodies, and not in a containing place. Nor is there need for a vacuum to exist outside heaven, since there is no place there, nor is there any potentiality susceptive of a body, but the potentiality of reaching thither lies in Christ. So when Aristotle proves (De Coelo ii) that there is no body beyond heaven, this must be understood of bodies which are in a state of pure nature, as is seen from the proofs. - http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4057.htm#article4
This in my opinion is unintelligible.

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
In the Bible Moses died a physical death, but the location of his burial is unknown.
I believe that he died and was later at some point raised bodily and taken into heaven - Jude 9, and thus appeared to Jesus and the disciples along with Elijah - Matthew 17:3, Mark 9:4 and Luke 9:30. I don't believe that he appeared as a spirit or with a temporary body. I am aware of the objections to this interpretation, which I ask in advance to be spared.

Philo on his death speaks such ''Afterwards the time came when he had to make his pilgrimage from earth to heaven, and leave this mortal life for immortality, summoned thither by the Father who resolved his twofold nature of soul and body into a single unity, transforming his whole being into mind, pure as the sunlight.'' (Mos. 2.288)

I like the suggestion that the body and soul of any prophet who is now in heaven are transformed into a single bodiless union safekeeping the existence of the body mentally (rather than destroying it or shedding it away as the Gnostics thought), so that they can later be remanifested as two without recreation when they return to the physical realm at the end of days.

Alternatively, even the seventh heaven is a spatial location and even the sons of God there are corporeal.

Last edited by petosiris; 04-13-2020 at 09:47 PM.
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  #703  
Unread 04-13-2020, 06:20 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

I never believed or had reason to think more accurately, that in the appearance to his disciples, Moses and Elijah, were actually physical forms. I also thought they were akin an appearance without bodily form only looked to be so.



This also happens when people see their dead loved ones. One lady explained her sister who was murdered, "stood at the end of my bed" one night.




I've heard countless such stories, and believe them to be true too. More like an astral body, not a physical one which previously died.

With Jesus however, I do think for him, he was somehow physically restored right after his death, when he said he was hungry and asked for food.



He also told Mary not to touch him, because he hadn't yet risen to the Father i.e. took to mean been glorified on this highest plane. The others I don't think went through such a metamorphosis (imo) .



Jesus had to do this in order for the prophecies to the Jews to be fulfilled, i.e. make the point.


p.s. I usually try to add "imo", because that's all it is anyway for everyone!


transfiguration


NOUN

  1. a complete change of form or appearance into a more beautiful or spiritual state.
    "in this light the junk undergoes a transfiguration; it shines"
    synonyms:
    change · alteration · modification · variation

Last edited by leomoon; 04-13-2020 at 06:26 PM. Reason: add note p.s.
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  #704  
Unread 04-13-2020, 06:34 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Necromancy and mediumship is forbidden in the Law. The only appearance of a dead person recorded in the OT (in 1 Sam. 28) in the context was most likely of a demon. Most people see lying visions and tell false dreams that are not to be trusted. People in grief, who are without the hope of the resurrection of the body, are especially susceptible to them, for obvious reasons.

Last edited by petosiris; 04-13-2020 at 07:10 PM.
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  #705  
Unread 04-13-2020, 07:02 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by leomoon View Post
I never believed or had reason to think more accurately, that in the appearance to his disciples, Moses and Elijah, were actually physical forms. I also thought they were akin an appearance without bodily form only looked to be so.
People can claim this about anything, even the flesh of Jesus. There is no truth in appearances and visions. Maybe there is semblance and expectation of a truth.

''If, then, such a being has now appeared in outward semblance different from what he was in reality, there has been a certain prophetical vision made to men; and another advent of His must be looked forward to, in which He shall be such as He has now been seen in a prophetic manner.'' - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103501.htm
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  #706  
Unread 04-13-2020, 08:09 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Witch of Endor - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_of_Endor



In the Hebrew Bible, the Witch of Endor is a woman Saul consulted to summon the spirit of prophet Samuel in the 28th chapter of the First Book of Samuel in order to receive advice against the Philistines in battle after his prior attempts to consult God through sacred lots and prophets had failed.


The Yalkut Shimoni (11th century) identifies the anonymous witch as the mother of Abner.[13] Based upon the witch's claim to have seen something, and Saul having heard a disembodied voice, the Yalkut suggests that necromancers are able to see the spirits of the dead but are unable to hear their speech, while the person for whom the deceased was summoned hears the voice but fails to see anything.[5]
Antoine Augustin Calmet briefly mentioned the witch of Endor in his Traité sur les apparitions des esprits et sur les vampires ou les revenans de Hongrie, de Moravie, &c. (1759):[14]
The Israelites went sometimes to consult Beelzebub, god of Ekron, to know if they should recover from their sickness. The history of the evocation of Samuel by the witch of Endor is well known. I am aware that some difficulties are raised concerning this history. I shall deduce nothing from it here, except that this woman passed for a witch, that Saul esteemed her such, and that this prince had exterminated the magicians in his own states, or, at least, that he did not permit them to exercise their art.
— Calmet, Chapter 7 on Magic
The Jews of our days believe that after the body of a man is interred, his spirit goes and comes, and departs from the spot where it is destined to visit his body, and to know what passes around him; that it is wandering during a whole year after the death of the body, and that it was during that year of delay that the Pythoness of Endor evoked the soul of Samuel, after which time the evocation would have had no power over his spirit.
— Calmet, Chapter 40

Last edited by leomoon; 04-13-2020 at 08:15 PM.
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  #707  
Unread 04-13-2020, 08:41 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Look, even if it was truly Samuel, by his abominable act - Ex. 22:18, Lev. 20:6, Shaul asked for Sheol, to use a Hebrew pun.
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  #708  
Unread 04-13-2020, 10:44 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

The "place" of heaven gets pretty complicated.

The brief Letter of Jude sounds almost pagan in its mentions of fallen angels "who did not keep their proper dwelling" living in the dark and in chains; the threat of "eternal fire," the archangel Michael, the devil. Basically there is a subtext of angels (celestial beings) rebelling against God. When did all this stuff happen?

Verses 10-13 are clearly metaphorical. I suggest most of Jude could be read as metaphorical.

In English, we separate out the words "sky" and "heaven." In German (Himmel) and in Hebrew (sh'mayim) the same word means both sky and heaven.

So should Christians believe literally in a God who lives up the sky that we see outside? This makes sense for a God who blesses with rain and punishes with drought.

But what about God's omnipresence? https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topi...s-Omnipresence

Or are we perhaps talking about a different dimension? One that co-exists with the world we can see "through a glass darkly" and one that surrounds us at all times?
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  #709  
Unread 04-13-2020, 11:29 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
The "place" of heaven gets pretty complicated.

The brief Letter of Jude sounds almost pagan in its mentions of fallen angels "who did not keep their proper dwelling" living in the dark and in chains; the threat of "eternal fire," the archangel Michael, the devil. Basically there is a subtext of angels (celestial beings) rebelling against God. When did all this stuff happen?

Verses 10-13 are clearly metaphorical. I suggest most of Jude could be read as metaphorical.
I know the opinion of some of your teachers concerning the free will of angels, how they slander Christians with the sin of idolatry for believing in such.

Quote:
In English, we separate out the words "sky" and "heaven." In German (Himmel) and in Hebrew (sh'mayim) the same word means both sky and heaven.

So should Christians believe literally in a God who lives up the sky that we see outside? This makes sense for a God who blesses with rain and punishes with drought.

But what about God's omnipresence? https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topi...s-Omnipresence

Or are we perhaps talking about a different dimension? One that co-exists with the world we can see "through a glass darkly" and one that surrounds us at all times?
The differences in the description of the omnipotence, omnipresence and incorporeality of God by Christian, Jewish and Muslim theologians are negligible. For they all describe the Supreme Being as better than anything one can imagine, and if one can think of a god in a spatial location such as you describe, one can think of God outside a spatial location, for he is the creator of space. Indeed, Maimonides encountered opposition to his insistence of the absolute incorporeality of God, for some of your teachers read some of the passages in question as literal rather than allegorical.
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  #710  
Unread 04-14-2020, 12:29 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Waybread, in Genesis 18 God appears to Abraham, eats, and then investigates, he seems to be visible, corporeal, non-omnipresent and non-omniscient. Furthermore there appear to be two who are called with the name in Genesis 19:24. Do you think there can be a second power, that is clearly inferior, but still divine and capable of bearing the divine name?
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  #711  
Unread 04-14-2020, 03:27 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
I know the opinion of some of your teachers concerning the free will of angels, how they slander Christians with the sin of idolatry for believing in such.
Petosiris, I've repeatedly called you out for pushing your erroneous belief in my non-existent "teachers." I've explained why you're wrong about this multiple times.

I don't slander Christians and it is wrong of you to try to affiliate me with anybody who does.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbour.

Are you doing this simply to be aggravating? You're certainly not making a convincing argument in support of Christianity by falsifying my beliefs.

Anyone who believes in the (non-existent) free will of (metaphorical) angels, or who slanders Christians is not my teacher.

Are you clear on that? Or is your repetition part of a persistent problem that you have with Judaism?

Are you anti-Semitic?




T
Quote:
he differences in the description of the omnipotence, omnipresence and incorporeality of God by Christian, Jewish and Muslim theologians are negligible. For they all describe the Supreme Being as better than anything one can imagine, and if one can think of a god in a spatial location such as you describe, one can think of God outside a spatial location, for he is the creator of space. Indeed, Maimonides encountered opposition to his insistence of the absolute incorporeality of God, for some of your teachers read some of the passages in question as literal rather than allegorical.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #712  
Unread 04-14-2020, 03:39 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Petosiris, I've repeatedly called you out for pushing your erroneous belief in my non-existent "teachers." I've explained why you're wrong about this multiple times.

I don't slander Christians and it is wrong of you to try to affiliate me with anybody who does.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbour.

Are you doing this simply to be aggravating? You're certainly not making a convincing argument in support of Christianity by falsifying my beliefs.

Anyone who believes in the (non-existent) free will of (metaphorical) angels, or who slanders Christians is not my teacher.

Are you clear on that? Or is your repetition part of a persistent problem that you have with Judaism?

Are you anti-Semitic?




T
I've heard Christians claiming that the Pope is the anti-Christ, and that their fellow Christians, the Catholics, worship false idols in the form of saints and the Virgin Mary.
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  #713  
Unread 04-14-2020, 03:57 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Right. Christianity is supposed to be a religion of love. Inter-denominational strife has been a problem since Christianity's inception, however. It is important to express Christian love in the correct orthodox way.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #714  
Unread 04-14-2020, 11:32 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
I've heard Christians claiming that the Pope is the anti-Christ,
The antichrist is a person and a world ruler, not a title as ''historicists'' might believe. The fruits of this erroneous movement are the failed 1844 and 1914 predictions of the second advent that spawned a few denominations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
and that their fellow Christians, the Catholics, worship false idols in the form of saints and the Virgin Mary.
This is undeniably true and is widely agreed by all non-Catholic/non-Orthodox Christians.
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  #715  
Unread 04-14-2020, 11:35 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Right. Christianity is supposed to be a religion of love. Inter-denominational strife has been a problem since Christianity's inception, however. It is important to express Christian love in the correct orthodox way.
Of course it is. We don't want anyone to be thrown in the lake of fire for idolatry, do we?
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  #716  
Unread 04-14-2020, 11:45 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Petosiris, I've repeatedly called you out for pushing your erroneous belief in my non-existent "teachers." I've explained why you're wrong about this multiple times.

I don't slander Christians and it is wrong of you to try to affiliate me with anybody who does.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbour.

Are you doing this simply to be aggravating? You're certainly not making a convincing argument in support of Christianity by falsifying my beliefs.

Anyone who believes in the (non-existent) free will of (metaphorical) angels, or who slanders Christians is not my teacher.

Are you clear on that? Or is your repetition part of a persistent problem that you have with Judaism?

Are you anti-Semitic?




T
Waybread, you claimed that Jude is ''almost pagan'' in its description of the angelic and demonic realm. I've not said anything aggravating, but the opinion of your teachers concerning our ''Persian dualism'' belief that you simply parrot.

I am not an anti-Semite, I thought that was clear enough - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...&postcount=609

But are you anti-Christian? It does seem like it sometimes.

Last edited by petosiris; 04-14-2020 at 12:10 PM.
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  #717  
Unread 04-14-2020, 01:56 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Are you clear on that? Or is your repetition part of a persistent problem that you have with Judaism?

Are you anti-Semitic?
Waybread you are a convert to judaism, you can't play the "racist" card against other people when you are facing criticism.



Besides being critical of a religion isn't a form of discrimination.
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  #718  
Unread 04-14-2020, 03:38 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Waybread you are a convert to judaism, you can't play the "racist" card against other people when you are facing criticism.



Besides being critical of a religion isn't a form of discrimination.
Biblically, Waybread is part of the Jewish nation.

Christians will also be part of that nation in the kingdom of God and the Christ according to the promises of the prophets and the apostles.

However, not all who call themselves Jews, nor all who call themselves Christians will be there, but only the one righteous remnant who are true children of Abraham. I leave this discrimination to God.

Last edited by petosiris; 04-14-2020 at 03:55 PM.
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  #719  
Unread 04-14-2020, 05:57 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Waybread you are a convert to judaism, you can't play the "racist" card against other people when you are facing criticism.



Besides being critical of a religion isn't a form of discrimination.
No, but it's historically been used to justify discrimination and bigotry.
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  #720  
Unread 04-15-2020, 03:09 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Biblically, Waybread is part of the Jewish nation.

Christians will also be part of that nation in the kingdom of God and the Christ according to the promises of the prophets and the apostles.

However, not all who call themselves Jews, nor all who call themselves Christians will be there, but only the one righteous remnant who are true children of Abraham. I leave this discrimination to God.

My half-sister converted to Judaism and is a member of the Reform branch, but she mentioned on her DNA test to have 8% Jewish from both parents (our Dad is from France and he was told of possible Jewish ancestry, but he's raised a Roman Catholic). She had an interest in Judaism in her young adult years and in her 30s (in the 2000s), her friends who were Jewish assisted her to learn about Judaism and make a complete conversion to her new religion over time.

Christians, Jews and Muslims all view Jerusalem and Israel as their holiest site (or Muslims, Mecca is more sacred) and these 3 different religions are linked to the Abrahamic or Monotheist idea of one god. Jews and Arabs (according to the Quran) are both descendants of Abraham: His wife Sarah had his son Isaac to forefather the Hebrews, while his concubine Hagar had his son Ishmael but was not given the promised land and they became wandering Bedouin Arab tribes.

The modern state of Israel has a Jewish majority, whether religiously, ethnic or cultural. About half of the Israeli population (esp. Jewish) are secular including atheist and humanist. About 20-25% of Israel has Arab roots, both Christian and Muslim (the majority) as well who may be Jewish but culturally are Arabs. And there are a sizable non-Jewish/Muslim minority, esp. from the former USSR and Slavic countries, other Europeans, East Asians, Indians, Africans and Latin Americans. There are Greeks, Armenians, Persians, Turks, Kurds, Samaritans, Druze, Assyrians, Circassians, Copts, Maronites, Chechens and Azeri who live in Israel.

There are 200,000 US citizens mostly Jewish (dual citizenship), but this list includes a few Evangelical Protestants of the Christian faith who believe Israel is where the second coming of Christ will happen. Israel allows Aliyah or the right of return to anyone who has a Jewish parent or grandparent and religiously in Judaism, then the number of guest workers who aren't Jewish indicates Israel has a huge preference for Jewish people from around the world, but they aren't exclusive in receiving immigrants. Despite the growing population of Orthodox and Hasidic Jews, the majority of Israelis have a western cultural liberal bent.
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  #721  
Unread 04-15-2020, 05:22 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Waybread, you claimed that Jude is ''almost pagan'' in its description of the angelic and demonic realm. I've not said anything aggravating, but the opinion of your teachers concerning our ''Persian dualism'' belief that you simply parrot.

I am not an anti-Semite, I thought that was clear enough - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...&postcount=609

But are you anti-Christian? It does seem like it sometimes.
This is the end of my conversation with you. You were warned repeatedly, yet you continue to falsify re: my non-existent "teachers" and to affiliate me with beliefs that you know I do not hold.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 04-15-2020 at 05:29 AM.
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  #722  
Unread 04-15-2020, 05:26 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Waybread you are a convert to judaism, you can't play the "racist" card against other people when you are facing criticism.



Besides being critical of a religion isn't a form of discrimination.
I accused no one of racism.

Judaism is not a race. Christianity is not a race.

It is one thing to criticize someone's beliefs. it is another thing to repeatedly and deliberately misrepresent her personally.

I have set the record straight for Petosiris many times. I'm done.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 04-15-2020 at 05:30 AM.
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  #723  
Unread 04-15-2020, 06:28 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

waybread will be done with everyone on this forum
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  #724  
Unread 04-15-2020, 08:01 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
waybread will be done with everyone on this forum
Has she ever said she's done with you?

Well, not with you, but with the conversation she was having with you?

Last edited by david starling; 04-15-2020 at 08:31 AM.
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  #725  
Unread 04-15-2020, 09:28 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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This is the end of my conversation with you. You were warned repeatedly, yet you continue to falsify re: my non-existent "teachers" and to affiliate me with beliefs that you know I do not hold.
Hi Waybread,

Brick, wall, head, bang. Do you like punk rock?
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