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  #1  
Unread 06-07-2014, 05:50 PM
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The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

Dear Jyotishis,

In jyotish, whether we sing praises to Parashara or Jaimini or several others, sooner rather than later we run into the Karakas: Natural (naisargika), Fixed (sthira) and movable (chara). The former have generally been used by astrologers a lot, the middle one not so much, the latter has been gaining attention increasingly in recent times, by masses of astrologers.

But other than the obvious literal meaning of the three terms, what do the three labels really imply and mean? In terms of translating their symbolism into an understandable statement during a reading.

How to decipher the code of the ancients, who gave the three labels, the three keywords as a CODE...?

Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan

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  #2  
Unread 02-18-2015, 07:37 PM
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Namaste.

Rohiniranjan have your investigations yielded anything interesting? I am a humble beginner but I find the various karakas in jyotish fascinating.

Crocus
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Unread 02-18-2015, 08:32 PM
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

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Namaste.

Rohiniranjan have your investigations yielded anything interesting? I am a humble beginner but I find the various karakas in jyotish fascinating.

Crocus
I couldn't agree more!
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Unread 02-23-2015, 04:58 PM
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

Rohiniranjan ji - you are not giving much away at all!

Natural (naisargika), such as Ravi for the father, Chandra for the mother and so on, to provide further significators other than bhava lords with which to clarify predictions. As you said these are commonly known and used, even by a tyro such as I.

As for the Fixed (sthira) and the movable (chara), I do not (yet) have a clue. As a child playing with building blocks I wish to be dazzled by these elements of your jyotish skyscraper. As if I am not already confused enough!!

Love and peace

Crocus
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Unread 02-23-2015, 07:42 PM
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

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Rohiniranjan ji - you are not giving much away at all!

Natural (naisargika), such as Ravi for the father, Chandra for the mother and so on, to provide further significators other than bhava lords with which to clarify predictions. As you said these are commonly known and used, even by a tyro such as I.

As for the Fixed (sthira) and the movable (chara), I do not (yet) have a clue. As a child playing with building blocks I wish to be dazzled by these elements of your jyotish skyscraper. As if I am not already confused enough!!

Love and peace

Crocus
Dear "Crocus" (luv yur handl...!) :-)

I was the one that was expressing my thirst, hence this thread. I am not sure why you assumed that I was setting up a thread to dazzle, or confuse anyone! Least of all, you! (I do not know or remember you. My apologies, but it sounded like you know me or of me! I could be assuming wrongly, of course).

Thank you for your candour though and adding your thoughts about the matter pertaining to the karakas, which term to me implies: initiator, activator, executor, the drop of water and sunshine that begins the germination process which may or may not result in a sapling, a plant, a tree, a tree bearing fruits. Phal, Karma-phal, life-plan that captures human experiences, general and individually-specific... etc

For those enlightened this might sound like 'child-play', of course! We cannot let that get us discouraged, can we?

Regards,

Rohiniranjan
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Unread 02-24-2015, 03:33 AM
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

"Venus is Karaka for Counselling" - Sarvartha Chintamani { Translated by B S Rao}.
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Unread 02-24-2015, 11:39 AM
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

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"Venus is Karaka for Counselling" - Sarvartha Chintamani { Translated by B S Rao}.
Thanks! But ???? :-)
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Unread 02-24-2015, 02:20 PM
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

Just examples

"Romance: Venus { KARAKA], 5th house { house}" from How to time event by Dinesh S. Mathur

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Unread 02-25-2015, 02:01 PM
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

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Originally Posted by Crystalpages View Post
Dear Jyotishis,

In jyotish, whether we sing praises to Parashara or Jaimini or several others, sooner rather than later we run into the Karakas: Natural (naisargika), Fixed (sthira) and movable (chara). The former have generally been used by astrologers a lot, the middle one not so much, the latter has been gaining attention increasingly in recent times, by masses of astrologers.

But other than the obvious literal meaning of the three terms, what do the three labels really imply and mean? In terms of translating their symbolism into an understandable statement during a reading.

How to decipher the code of the ancients, who gave the three labels, the three keywords as a CODE...?

Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan

Dear Dada,

A nice write up on this is given below:
http://varahamihira.blogspot.in/2005/02/karakas-i.html

It is a good compilation with some nice philosophy and logic. I would look at it more practically.

Somewhere I have found a reference which states that sthirakaraks are for decifering the health of the signification;rather the tamaguna facility, which could be the physicality too.

Rishi
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Unread 02-26-2015, 04:54 AM
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

Naisargika or natural karaka system,


When a Jyotish uses the Naisargika or natural karaka system, he/she looks at each graha and its indication/signification it plays in one's chart:
Sun: Ravi or Surya- Atma, physical constitution, eyes-seeing, health, east direction and dawn : Karaka of the 1st house ( Lagna), 10th (Career), 9th, and 5th houses.
Jupiter: Guru or Brihaspati - Family, wealth matters, expansion children, guru-teachers, religion, fortune, elder brothers: Karakak of the 2nd , 5th, 9th, and 11th houses. The NE direction.
Mars: Mangala - Courage, younger siblings, strength or stamina, blood, defense, enemies: Karaka of the 3rd, 6th, 4th, 5th houses. The S direction.
Moon: Chandra - Mother, compassion, feelings, mind & emotions, milk and ghee (soma too!), pearls, the evening: Karaka of the 4th, 1st and 11th houses, and the NW direction.
Venus: Sukla -wife and husband, martial relationships, vehicles, pleasures of the bed, fluids, perfumes, dance , music, song, e.g. feeding the senses: Karaka of the 7th house, 4th house, 12 house . The SE direction.
Mercury: Buddha - speech, learning, memory, credits, honors, friends, business, adeptness, mathematics: Karaka of the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 10th and 11th houses and owner of the North direction.
Saturn: Sani - longevity, troubles, grief, losses, ailments, limps, dishonor or fall from grace, hard labor, imprisonment, renunciation, one-pointedness. Karaka of the 8th, 6th, 5th and 12th and the West direction.
Rahu: accidents, occult knowledge, life in a foreign land, poisons, skin dis-eases, arguments, darkness. Karaka of the 7th, 9th and 6th houses. Owns the SW direction.
Ketu:- occult knowledge, moksha, detachment, fastidious, imprisonment. Karka of the 12th, 9th and 8th houses. Owns the NW direction.

noted from
http://bharatiyajyotishmantrasaadhan...ka-system.html
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Unread 02-26-2015, 05:02 AM
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

The planet with the highest advancement is Atma Karaka
(significator of Self) and denoted by AK. Other charakarakas are
given below:
Order Karaka Symbol Persons shown
1 Atma Karaka AK Self
2 Amatya Karaka AmK Ministers
3 Bhratri Karaka BK Siblings
4 Matri Karaka MK Mother
5 Pitri Karaka PiK Father
6 Putra PK Children
7 Jnaati Karaka GK (JK) Rivals
8 Dara Karaka DK Spouse
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Unread 02-26-2015, 11:29 AM
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

Dear Rajarshi ji,

Namashkaaram! First of all, thank you very much for providing the members with these lists of the three major classifications of karakas prescribed in jyotish which Shri JP Sandhu and R Kishan jis have given at their sites etc. These will form a good resource for reference if the thread progresses and we hear more from the members about the utility and utilization of these markers. It seems that R Kishan ji is of the firm opinion that the fixed or sthira karakas should only be used to examine the matters (presumably conditions and timing etc) pertaining to the death of the relative represented by the karaka. In other words, regardless of lagna, rashi or variations in planetary distributions in the specific charts (and Oh My God, do they vary so drastically, one from the other!), one must look at Jupiter for matters related to death of Husband, sons, paternal grandparents
and other paternal relatives (uncles and aunts), and since Jupiter also is the naisargika karaka of teacher and father and elder brother and children (and husband according to many), Jupiter's period would seem to have for one and all the dire and gloomy possibility of losing one or more of the many relatives believed to be associated with Jupiter! Particularly, if the different dasas associated with the different karakattwas as well as death-related dasas related to Jupiter are operating for most nativities.

This is the problem with most lists of this nature, for beginners as well as those who are less green behind their ears, in jyotish. The problem primarily arises because jyotish texts tend to be pithy and more often than not the logic or reasoning behind such powerful dicta has either been withheld or lost from the body of knowledge of jyotish. Hence, unless one is happy to rely on hits and misses or intuition (why use the laborious approach of jyotish then, if so endowed!!), there arises a big problem in conceptualization...!

Regards,

Rohiniranjan
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Unread 02-26-2015, 03:46 PM
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajarshi View Post
Fully agree with you.

Example given in book [ Bengali] of ' Jyoti Vachaspati' { translated by me}

"Karaka should be ascertained as follows:

Which sign can represent Sea?

Sea is water. Therefore, It may be Cancer, Scorpio or Pisces.

Sea water is moveable, therefore, it should be Cancer.

Cancer represents Sea."

Dear Rajarshi ji,

But there is another way to look at this puzzle, is there not?

All three symbolic creatures are movable, the crab (cancer) moves towards and away from water (sea), the scorpion (scorpio) always moves away from water (sea), the fish (pisces) dreads moving away from water (sea), so it moves with the sea! If we go with such convenient interpretations of symbols, then really the fish or pisces should represent the sea for it remains always with sea. One may think of it as having sthira-fixed relationship with the sea. Crab (cancer) on the other hand represents a dwisvabhava relationship with the water (sea) since it moves to the ground (beach) as well as towards water (sea). The scorpion (scorpio) on the other hand shuns water (sea) and runs away from it. Someone then, based on this wish to label cancer as dwiswabhava, scorpio as movable and pisces as fixed sign! This simply cannot work, of course, due to accepted axioms of fixed-movable-mutable in astrology (and jyotish too)

In reality, if we focus on the attributes of sea which is what you were searching a symbolism for, as illustration here, sea is not actually movable nor fixed but dwisvabhava! It is mostly fixed within its boundaries and domain, but on occasion does move into the land-space, but then retreats back to its domain. This to me sounds more dwisvabhava-mutable than chara-movable-cardinal! ERGO, pisces should represent the sea for both the sign and the sea are dwisvabhava!

Of course pure water (not the salted version that the sea is) has two other phases too: Fixed when it freezes and vapour. This again highlights the mutable nature of water and therefore once again, the sea which is mostly water (contaminated with salt and million other things, including some very toxic!) seems to fit pisces better than cancer or scorpio!

We could go on and try a few other finer parallelisms and explore deeper simply the jala tattwa that exists in all three signs, and so on, but we have already strayed so far in the ocean that the land seems only a speck of dust on the horizon of our conceptualization of this Karaka business that I was hoping to learn from you all kind folks here!

Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan
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Unread 02-27-2015, 05:15 AM
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

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Dear Rajarshi ji,

We could go on and try a few other finer parallelisms and explore deeper simply the jala tattwa that exists in all three signs, and so on, but we have already strayed so far in the ocean that the land seems only a speck of dust on the horizon of our conceptualization of this Karaka business that I was hoping to learn from you all kind folks here!

Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan
Shri Rohiniranjan,

I was hoping to learn from you all kind folks here!

You are one of the most experienced here.

We have already strayed so far in the ocean that the land seems only a speck of dust on the horizon of our conceptualization of this Karaka business.

This is important thread... please continue your impressions & understanding about this.


Kind Regards
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Unread 02-27-2015, 01:23 PM
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

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Originally Posted by Rajarshi View Post
We shall discuss further...

Sharing Jyoti Bachaspati:

" Lake will be represented by Scorpio as Water + Fixed

and Waterfalls will be represented by Pisces as Water + Dual { fixed & moveable both}"


Regards


But why? Where is the (logical) link, Rajarshi ji? Of course, that is a bit unfair question :-)! You are merely quoting Jyotish Vachaspati text which you studied (naturally), and translated. But, perhaps you might have done some manan-chintan over that? Jyotish texts are often filled with dicta with little explanation. Kind of like a 'take it or leave it' proposition. Which is fine and sometimes works well too, but that is exactly why we regular individuals must discuss these things on jyotish forums like this!

You kindly labeled me as 'experienced', but I have always considered myself as a tiny learner exploring the bounties of the great ocean that Jyotish is, without getting swept by the POWERful waves, nor greedy of owning the ocean or its treasures. However, the ocean of jyotish is not a shrine and I am not religious-minded when jyotish is claimed as a discipline formed of techniques, many of which are logical (to an extent), and the remaining ones, like the karaka code, must be explored and analysed by all and not only those who are or consider themselves as experienced! ;-)

And lest someone might think that all this can be deciphered overnight, well, more power to them and their understanding! <LOL>

Regards,

Rohiniranjan
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Unread 02-28-2015, 12:01 PM
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

Lake is water which is fixed in a limited space/area. As, Scorpio is fixed sign and water sign, therefore, Lake is best represented by Scorpio.

Waterfalls are moveable water in a fixed place, which can easily be identifiable with Dual sign, which is combination of fixed & moveable. Therefore, waterfalls are best represented by Pisces.

Sea is moveable, dynamic which can be represented by moveable water sign Cancer.

These are the logics which I understood.

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Unread 03-01-2015, 02:45 AM
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajarshi View Post
Lake is water which is fixed in a limited space/area. As, Scorpio is fixed sign and water sign, therefore, Lake is best represented by Scorpio.

Waterfalls are moveable water in a fixed place, which can easily be identifiable with Dual sign, which is combination of fixed & moveable. Therefore, waterfalls are best represented by Pisces.

Sea is moveable, dynamic which can be represented by moveable water sign Cancer.

These are the logics which I understood.

Rajarshi ji,

If we consider the total vast area covered by sea and ocean, the relatively very small movement it makes into land and up and down may actually be rather small (fixed) compared to the relative movement of a lake, let alone the great lakes in North America which move a lot more in comparison to their size! A river, on the other hand might fit the category of movable water more fittingly, would it not? Rivers, it seems for some reason are missing entirely from this analogical comparison that is being made based on Jyotish Vachaspati book. I think ice is truly speaking the fixed form of water, even more fixed than the relative immobile form of water in mid to smaller lakes! Incidentally, and if honestly and candidly stated, these analogies between water and its forms and the symbology used for the three phases of the zodiacal signs are far from perfect.

Mind you, this dialogue between us in no way must be taken by some readers as me questioning or disrespecting Jyotish Vachaspati, because it might have many jyotish-related gems and nuggets of gold!

I am not questioning, either, your comfort level with the analogy given in the said text and symbological derivation thereof, or any other similar text. I just had some misgivings which I have honestly verbalized and so beginners must not sell their copies of such texts in a hasty manner! :-)

Now that hopefully all this water is behind us or has flown under the bridge, proverbially-speaking, please do share how Jyotish Vachaspati deals with the naisargika, sthira and chara karakas and what its recommendations are. By the way, while sthira and chara translate into fixed and movable (like signs), naisargika is a term that does not fit in that tripartite categorization essentially of the duality of polar opposite states of fixed and movable with the third being mutable or dwiswabhava. Please do elaborate if you think differently and consider naisargika somehow expressing the mixed state where transition between fixed and movable both are coexistent. And then remains the field testing of such ponderings and musings!

Regards,

Rohiniranjan
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Unread 03-01-2015, 03:49 AM
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

This is interesting!
Me too, Thirsty to comprehend the Karaka codes better/properly, arrive to summarise the details arrived as.....by different logics



Charakarakas.......Satyaguna (sustenance)..........movable
Sthirakaraks.........Tamaguna (destruction)...........fixed
Naisargikkarakas....Rajaguna (creation)................dwirsabhava

Let us leave room for changes.....

RishiRahul

P.S: my intention is not to hijack/disturb the thread, but to summarise the arrived logics in one place (visually) so that we may improve/change or maybe add to it....
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

Quote:
Originally Posted by RishiRahul View Post
This is interesting!
Me too, Thirsty to comprehend the Karaka codes better/properly, arrive to summarise the details arrived as.....by different logics



Charakarakas.......Satyaguna (sustenance)..........movable
Sthirakaraks.........Tamaguna (destruction)...........fixed
Naisargikkarakas....Rajaguna (creation)................dwirsabhava

Let us leave room for changes.....

RishiRahul

P.S: my intention is not to hijack/disturb the thread, but to summarise the arrived logics in one place (visually) so that we may improve/change or maybe add to it....
Hey Rishi, don't worry about interruptions etc. As you know, having known me for at least 9-10 years on and off MB, I believe truly that any public discussion thread can ONLY benefit from more people adding their input. So, summarize away and even change concepts without fear or hesitation (sankoch!). What would be the point of discussions other than to increase clarity 2020 ;-) -- clarity about concepts; clarity about conceptualisers {LOL}!

We can always *religiously* believe in what we read in writings (old and new) verbatim and literally and never let our perceptions develop beyond some analogy that infatuates us and remain stuck (fixed?) in our self-created prison-well, right? In that case one would be wasting their time, faculties and similar gifts that God has given to human beings. Seriousness and sincerity are the key.

So, with that -- I request you my friend: please don't be tongue-tied or shy and delve a bit deeper and without being miserly with words, why do you think that the three karakas (we are not touching the additional karakas, yet) are or must be married to the three gunas? If we just go with the categorisations accepted generally, would not rajas be associated with fire, satva with water and tamasik with the remaining?

Looked another way, hopefully logically (dirty word!), creation and destruction are momentary but capable of producing enormous changes (birth vs death), while sustenance is more prevailing and hardly momentary. Looked this way, sthira would analogically strike one as associated with sustenance, birth with dwiswabhava (why? Think about that!) while death would be chara, in most cases. I do not consider NDEs as dying. Of course, analogical-FIT-o-logy can serve us well, as well, were we to use another sort and match ordering of these elements, karakas on one side of the equation, with gunas on the other.

We are just conceptualizing at this point so let us first figure that out before running out of the bath-tub, exclaiming EUREKA! ;-)

Regards,

Rohiniranjan
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Unread 03-01-2015, 02:15 PM
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

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Hey Rishi, don't worry about interruptions etc. As you know, having known me for at least 9-10 years on and off MB, I believe truly that any public discussion thread can ONLY benefit from more people adding their input. So, summarize away and even change concepts without fear or hesitation (sankoch!). What would be the point of discussions other than to increase clarity 2020 ;-) -- clarity about concepts; clarity about conceptualisers {LOL}!

We can always *religiously* believe in what we read in writings (old and new) verbatim and literally and never let our perceptions develop beyond some analogy that infatuates us and remain stuck (fixed?) in our self-created prison-well, right? In that case one would be wasting their time, faculties and similar gifts that God has given to human beings. Seriousness and sincerity are the key.

So, with that -- I request you my friend: please don't be tongue-tied or shy and delve a bit deeper and without being miserly with words, why do you think that the three karakas (we are not touching the additional karakas, yet) are or must be married to the three gunas? If we just go with the categorisations accepted generally, would not rajas be associated with fire, satva with water and tamasik with the remaining?

Looked another way, hopefully logically (dirty word!), creation and destruction are momentary but capable of producing enormous changes (birth vs death), while sustenance is more prevailing and hardly momentary. Looked this way, sthira would analogically strike one as associated with sustenance, birth with dwiswabhava (why? Think about that!) while death would be chara, in most cases. I do not consider NDEs as dying. Of course, analogical-FIT-o-logy can serve us well, as well, were we to use another sort and match ordering of these elements, karakas on one side of the equation, with gunas on the other.

We are just conceptualizing at this point so let us first figure that out before running out of the bath-tub, exclaiming EUREKA! ;-)

Regards,

Rohiniranjan

Dada,

Ah! That sounds good, about theorizing and even changing concepts if need be., and that we shouldn't remain stuck in our self created prison like the frog.

Yes. Creation and Destruction is momentary (sometimes 'true' may sound 'dirty'), like Brahma & Maheswar are; while sustenance is more visual and permeating during the lifetime, and we have Vishnu Avatar Krishna writing Gita regarding the way & why we should sustain the lifetime.

I am not aware of the reasoning given by the Sanjay Rath School on the guna equation with karaks, and anyways, I do leave the option open that gunas may or may not be married to karaks in reality.

Charakarakas are movable karaks, which show how the less fixed like naisargika & shtira karaks prosper/sustain/'move from birth to death' during the natives lifetime (rather the final equation/relation between the karak and the self).
Thus I find this to be the logical clarity. Of course, any logic may be incorrect as a better logic can exist.

Now, about/between the sthira & Naisargik karaks, I am not sure.....

Rishi
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Last edited by RishiRahul; 03-01-2015 at 03:07 PM. Reason: spelling mistake and wrong emoticon and wrong word
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

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Originally Posted by RishiRahul View Post
Dada,

Ah! That sounds good, about theorizing and even changing concepts if need be., and that we shouldn't remain stuck in our self created prison like the frog.

Yes. Creation and Destruction is momentary (sometimes 'true' may sound 'dirty'), like Brahma & Maheswar are; while sustenance is more visual and permeating during the lifetime, and we have Vishnu Avatar Krishna writing Gita regarding the way & why we should sustain the lifetime.

I am not aware of the reasoning given by the Sanjay Rath School on the guna equation with karaks, and anyways, I do leave the option open that gunas may or may not be married to karaks in reality.

Charakarakas are movable karaks, which show how the less fixed like naisargika & shtira karaks prosper/sustain/'move from birth to death' during the natives lifetime (rather the final equation/relation between the karak and the self).
Thus I find this to be the logical clarity. Of course, any logic may be incorrect as a better logic can exist.

Now, about/between the sthira & Naisargik karaks, I am not sure.....

Rishi
Rishi,

I for one am not allergic to theorizing etc, because without that as the basis, no practical and no practice ;-)

I am not sufficiently aware of the reasoning accepted in Sanjay's school or any other schools for that matter, other than a bit of what is in public domain.

Without waxing profoundly philosophical, my interpretation of the three categories is much simpler and does not involve invoking Gods who have more important things to deal with as opposed to jyotish, namely, how to preserve humanity from self-destruction and destroying one another! :-(

The categories so named (Naisargika, Sthira, Chara) are perhaps just related to their utilization in horoscopy. Naisargika karakas apply uniformly to all nativities in the same manner and hence are more global; Chara karakas are more individually applicable and hence are nativity specific; Sthira are mixed and are uniform for different charts but with certain variabilities specified (in the method of determination). With poetical-philosophical license, one may think of those somewhat akin to Fixed:Movable:Mutable categories. Extrapolating that to rashis, gunas, tattwas would be somewhat of a 'stretch', no matter how 'be-FIT-ting' it may sound or made to sound and some may even see logic in such extrapolations!

Not against stretching of thinking or imagination, of course but each leap thereof must not be taken to indicate some kind of a paradigm-shift! With or without having to drag in Gods or religious analogies. It is like erecting an edifice of belief on the foundation which is another belief on another and so forth. Such to me sounds anything but logic-based and obfuscates the very basis of logic.

Regards,

Rohiniranjan
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

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Rishi,

I for one am not allergic to theorizing etc, because without that as the basis, no practical and no practice ;-)

I am not sufficiently aware of the reasoning accepted in Sanjay's school or any other schools for that matter, other than a bit of what is in public domain.

Without waxing profoundly philosophical, my interpretation of the three categories is much simpler and does not involve invoking Gods who have more important things to deal with as opposed to jyotish, namely, how to preserve humanity from self-destruction and destroying one another! :-(

The categories so named (Naisargika, Sthira, Chara) are perhaps just related to their utilization in horoscopy. Naisargika karakas apply uniformly to all nativities in the same manner and hence are more global; Chara karakas are more individually applicable and hence are nativity specific; Sthira are mixed and are uniform for different charts but with certain variabilities specified (in the method of determination). With poetical-philosophical license, one may think of those somewhat akin to Fixed:Movable:Mutable categories. Extrapolating that to rashis, gunas, tattwas would be somewhat of a 'stretch', no matter how 'be-FIT-ting' it may sound or made to sound and some may even see logic in such extrapolations!

Not against stretching of thinking or imagination, of course but each leap thereof must not be taken to indicate some kind of a paradigm-shift! With or without having to drag in Gods or religious analogies. It is like erecting an edifice of belief on the foundation which is another belief on another and so forth. Such to me sounds anything but logic-based and obfuscates the very basis of logic.

Regards,

Rohiniranjan


Dada,

I too am not aware of the reasoning the Sanjay Rath school has about this as most of my knowledge is also from hthe public domain.

Oh! I am not invoking the Gods, and as you are aware, I do not attach Gods with astrology. But since you mentioned birth death & sustenance, I attached Brahma Maheswar and Vishnu as they symbolise birth death & creation... just my way of explaining/elaborating more visually with many followers of Vedic.

Again, regarding astrology and Gunas, am not sure of the logic behind it, and maybe others attached to the Sanjay Rath tradition may offer a sound logic.....Marian, I suppose.

Charakaraks are more individually applicable and hence are nativity specific as also I have noticed;

while Naisargika karakas apply uniformly to all nativities in the same manner and hence are more global;
and Sthira are mixed and are uniform for different charts but with certain variabilities specified (in the method of determination).

Rishi
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

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Originally Posted by RishiRahul View Post
Dada,

I too am not aware of the reasoning the Sanjay Rath school has about this as most of my knowledge is also from hthe public domain.

Oh! I am not invoking the Gods, and as you are aware, I do not attach Gods with astrology. But since you mentioned birth death & sustenance, I attached Brahma Maheswar and Vishnu as they symbolise birth death & creation... just my way of explaining/elaborating more visually with many followers of Vedic.

Again, regarding astrology and Gunas, am not sure of the logic behind it, and maybe others attached to the Sanjay Rath tradition may offer a sound logic.....Marian, I suppose.

Charakaraks are more individually applicable and hence are nativity specific as also I have noticed;

while Naisargika karakas apply uniformly to all nativities in the same manner and hence are more global;
and Sthira are mixed and are uniform for different charts but with certain variabilities specified (in the method of determination).

Rishi
Interesting, Rishi!
Birth, Death, sustenance are rather religion-neutral terms and are experienced by people of ALL religions and rather clear and clearly-understood English terms. But as soon as you or I or anyone feel it necessary to specifically mention the names of Gods, it stops being religion-neutral and specifically religious symbolism! Which is unnecessary for astrological conversation-discussion! ;-)

That aside, the term *mixed* implies closeness to dwisvabhava or mutable, whereas *fixed* implies polarity, the opposite pole being chara or *movable*.

Yet you say "naisargika ... sthira or mixed..."! Why, and what did you mean by calling fixed as mixed? :-) Naisargika is fixed, sthira is partly variable at best perhaps the determination might be more preference than innate! On the other hand, regarding, the tri-partite division of zodiac (fixed, mutable, movable) is less a matter of preference. Perhaps, the chara, sthira and dwisvabhava attributes have little to do with the three categories of Karakas? I certainly do not recall the fundamental texts connecting the two categorisations...! Do you?

Additionally, one may choose to confuse the issue and discussion, by mixing up zodiacs but then it becomes the xyz-breakfast! <LOL>

Regards,

Rohiniranjan
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Last edited by Crystalpages; 03-03-2015 at 06:04 PM. Reason: elaboration for clarity.
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Unread 03-04-2015, 02:43 PM
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

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Interesting, Rishi!
Birth, Death, sustenance are rather religion-neutral terms and are experienced by people of ALL religions and rather clear and clearly-understood English terms. But as soon as you or I or anyone feel it necessary to specifically mention the names of Gods, it stops being religion-neutral and specifically religious symbolism! Which is unnecessary for astrological conversation-discussion! ;-)
Rishi=Yes, birth,death, sustenance are religion-neutral terms all right, and I need not have attached the symbolizations at all.
But again, Jyotish is a limb of the Vedas, and I thought that symbiolisations (sometimes mythology even) are sometimes helpful in understanding the sense better/more visually.
Anyways, It can be left out if it poses a problem to the main essence of the thread.

That aside, the term *mixed* implies closeness to dwisvabhava or mutable, whereas *fixed* implies polarity, the opposite pole being chara or *movable*.

Yet you say "naisargika ... sthira or mixed..."! Why, and what did you mean by calling fixed as mixed? :-) Naisargika is fixed, sthira is partly variable at best perhaps the determination might be more preference than innate! On the other hand, regarding, the tri-partite division of zodiac (fixed, mutable, movable) is less a matter of preference. Perhaps, the chara, sthira and dwisvabhava attributes have little to do with the three categories of Karakas? I certainly do not recall the fundamental texts connecting the two categorisations...! Do you?
Rishi= Are you are talking of the gist I mentioned above (post on 1 March 2015)?
If so, the thought wasn't mine at all, but a gist of the links given in the same thread previous to the post; with the thought that it may help the thread-- take it or leave it.

Additionally, one may choose to confuse the issue and discussion, by mixing up zodiacs but then it becomes the xyz-breakfast! <LOL>

Regards,

Rohiniranjan


I hope I am not adding to the confusion. Please neglect the gist mentioned by me, if you feel so

Rishi
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Last edited by RishiRahul; 03-04-2015 at 02:48 PM.
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Re: The Karaka CODE...? (Hopefully simpler than DaVinci's...??

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I hope I am not adding to the confusion. Please neglect the gist mentioned by me, if you feel so

Rishi
Jyotish, at least in my experience, while originating as a part and parcel of Vedas which are (again to my understanding!) more than just religious texts are transcendental to any specific religion or religious thinking. They are spiritual texts and collections of spiritual thoughts as well as a moral codex. I have seen many atheists with rather high moral values and sense of moralities, and also religious people who were not so moral! ;-)

Jyotish does apply to human beings of rather wide range of religious and moral beliefs (or lack thereof!) and so is universal and must not be fettered to or limited by religious labelling!

But, please do not change your ways and preferences just because I pointed something out in the terminology that you used! Or felt it necessary to do so! ;-)

Are we getting influenced by the eclipse {tongue-in-cheek jest!}? Or are we simply being consistent? I know, I am being the latter!!

Rohiniranjan
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