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  #1  
Unread 03-20-2019, 04:11 AM
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Using planetary patterns: the Locomotive

All planets are found within a two-thirds segment of the zodiac well-defined by a functioning trine. It approaches the ideal when the planets are equispaced in the occupied section of the wheel. The functioning trine is necessary.

The planet facing clockwise on the unoccupied segment is the cutting planet and is brought to high focus in the map.

*****

The bundle pattern type withdraws into his trine. The locomotive embraces and manipulates some selected area of experience...inward vs. outward. (The area embraced is found at midpoint of the delimiting trine, in the unoccupied sector.) This type throws the whole of self into everyday experience. He may be unreasonably ambitious, with a strong desire for success. When frustrated he is apt to rebel. Here is a practical reformer. If a grand trine is present the ability of the native to project his personality into the lives of others is enhanced. If the grand trine is accompanied by a T-square that ties into it, the native is likely to have a strong impact on the larger world. T-squares always indicate a general effectiveness of effort.

*****

Bobby Fischer.
(Will someone do us the favor of posting his chart here? Thanks.)

Three partile trines in Air.
Mars is cutting, partile conjunct the Descendant in Aquarius. Keyword for Mars in high focus is Indomitable. The 7th house symbolizes competition or performance at the highest level [consider the virtuoso concert pianist...or war].

There is also a Fixed T-square...Mars opposes Pluto at the Ascendant and they square Moon (ultimately Fischer totally rejected his mother and all that she stood for, and was consumed by hate).

In a TV interview Fischer was asked what the high point of a chess match was for him. He replied, "It's the moment in which I know that I have totally destroyed my opponent's ego."

I do not intend to interpret the chart here. But I will point out a few features that deserve attention.

Mars rules Venus, in detriment and partile conjunct the MC; the two planets, while not in zodiacal square, are in mundane square.

Mercury squares Uranus, but the two are not in the same Quality (which is the norm for squares) but instead they share the Air Element. Fischer had a tested IQ of 185.


Last edited by greybeard; 03-20-2019 at 04:25 AM.
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Unread 03-20-2019, 08:51 AM
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Re: Using planetary patterns: the Locomotive. Bobby. Fisher

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Last edited by Therese; 03-20-2019 at 03:45 PM.
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Unread 03-20-2019, 01:45 PM
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Unread 03-23-2019, 09:26 PM
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Re: Using planetary patterns: the Locomotive. Bobby. Fisher

"Outer Planet" heavy. Stronger in "concepts'' rather in personal relationships.

Pluto opp Mars his primary dynamic. Without the confrontation there's "no point" in relationships.
And the confrontation always feels like "life or death".

Interesting.
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Unread 03-24-2019, 03:47 AM
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"Outer Planet" heavy. Stronger in "concepts'' rather in personal relationships.

Pluto opp Mars his primary dynamic. Without the confrontation there's "no point" in relationships.
And the confrontation always feels like "life or death".

Interesting.
LIN
Very nice observation..life or death.

He must destroy his opponent's ego.

Last edited by greybeard; 03-30-2019 at 01:30 AM.
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Unread 04-11-2019, 07:57 PM
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Re: Using planetary patterns: the Locomotive. Bobby. Fisher

It's interesting that Michael Meyer complements Jones here by focusing not so much on the social/practical expression of the locomotive. For him, this pattern is less about "success" and more about "transcendence".

He calls it an "open-angle pattern" and says that it "suggests a type of personality with an inherent quality of openness to the transcendent elements of life. This may mean a spiritual or mystic temperament as well as an ability or urge to transcend the conventional element within any situation." (A Handbook for the Humanistic Astrologer, p. 147-8)

So, in Jones' sense, the locomotive shows Fischer's drive to succeed, and in Meyer's sense, it reveals the nature of his delusions - in a way, paranoia is an exploration of transcendence gone haywire - always probing who and what is behind and beyond...

Maybe we could look at less pathological personalities who have the locomotive pattern? Leonardo da Vinci, Goethe, Jorge Luis Borges, Kevin Costner - they all have charts with AA Rodden rating
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Last edited by Therese; 04-11-2019 at 08:24 PM.
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Unread 04-12-2019, 08:54 PM
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Re: Using planetary patterns: the Locomotive. Bobby. Fisher

Bobby transcended "the chess world" by playing chess. Neither the art nor the business of chess were ever the same after Bobby.

If it's a locomotive it fits topic. Pick your own subject, then show us how we can use pattern and structure to reveal character and destiny.

Last edited by greybeard; 04-12-2019 at 08:58 PM.
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Unread 04-16-2019, 03:22 PM
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Re: Using planetary patterns: the Locomotive. Bobby. Fisher

Note to Moderator...

This thread is about:

1. Using Planetary Patterns
2. The Locomotive Pattern
3. Bobby Fisher as example

Please allow discussion of other charts. Leonardo has a chart with Locomotive pattern and is On-Topic.

Thanks.
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Unread 04-18-2019, 10:59 AM
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Re: Using planetary patterns: the Locomotive. Bobby. Fisher

The chart of Leonardo da Vinci:


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Last edited by Therese; 04-18-2019 at 11:35 AM.
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Unread 04-18-2019, 11:12 AM
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Re: Using planetary patterns: the Locomotive. Bobby. Fisher

Leonardo's chart is a locomotive, with Mars in Aquarius on the cusp of the 3rd house as the leading planet and Saturn rx in Libra in the 10th trailing. There is neither a grand trine nor a t-square (there are some minor and irregular formations about which later). The planets are divided equally between the Eastern and Western hemispheres (5-5). All personal planets are below the horizon. The map is quite balanced when it comes to mode, element, house expression and aspect.

Jones writes that the locomotive native has "greater desire for involvement in experience" than either the seesaw or the bucket (p. 84). He says that like the bundle, the locomotive is "intensely personal". He uses the term "personal" to mean that their actions, etc. originate in the individual themselves, while "impersonal" is the tendency to be shaped by and respond to one's surroundings. The bundle is personal because they cope with their environment basically by tuning out most of it, and the locomotive because the native "forever attempts to project the whole of himself into experience and to claim the totality of each passing potentiality as his own." (84)

In Leonardo's case, the empty one-third and the "selected area of experience" falls in the Eastern hemisphere, with the midpoint of the trine in the proximity of the ascendant. Here is someone who is passionate, self-taught, motivated, active and efficient in pursuing his interests. Jones' keyword for Mars is "initiative" and when in high focus: "indomitability". He associates Saturn with "sensitiveness" and "shrewdness".

Leonardo's outsider status was essential to become who he was (Mars in Aquarius on the cusp of the 3rd trine Saturn rx, etc). We know that he was born out of wedlock, but Renaissance Italy was no Puritan New England. Jacob Burckhardt even labeled the era "a golden age for bastards". There was no shame associated with this situation (so much so that Leonardo's christening was a great public event with the cream of local society present), though it carried legal ambiguity when it came to inheritance. This situation also brought plenty of benefits. Leonardo enjoyed the support of the wealthy family of his father even after his mother married. And this support was not only financial. By the age of five, he was practically living with the family of his biological father (who had no other children until Leonardo was 24 years old). The boy was free from the obligations of a legal heir: he did not have to enter the strict and dogmatic education reserved for the upper classes nor was he expected to become a notary like his father and grandfather.*


...


* details of Leonardo's life come mostly from Isaacson, W. (2018). Leonardo Da Vinci. New York: Simon & Schuster.
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Unread 04-18-2019, 06:24 PM
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Re: Using planetary patterns: the Locomotive. Bobby. Fisher

An exercise:

Leonardo was born and lived before the trans-Saturnians were available. Remove them.

Now you have the chart abailable to Leonardo's contemporaries...a very well balanced (Mars/Venus = 5 Aries 03) Bucket with a very powerful Saturn (handle, elevated, exalted with Venus in domicile,...).

Which chart best describes Leonardo:
A. In his own times
B. As a historical figure

And, what does inclusion of the outer planets add to our understanding?

The Locomotive is both driven and driving. I think that's an important quality of this personality.

Last edited by greybeard; 04-18-2019 at 07:36 PM.
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Unread 04-18-2019, 06:59 PM
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Re: Using planetary patterns: the Locomotive. Bobby. Fisher

Also...

Cutting Mars near cusp 3rd in Aquarius (ruled from 10th).

3rd is house of "technology", Aquarius "inventive". Note that Bobby Fisher's Aquarius Mars was on cusp 7, "performance or competition at the highest level".
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Unread 04-19-2019, 10:51 AM
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Re: Using planetary patterns: the Locomotive. Bobby. Fisher

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
An exercise:

Leonardo was born and lived before the trans-Saturnians were available. Remove them.

Now you have the chart abailable to Leonardo's contemporaries...a very well balanced (Mars/Venus = 5 Aries 03) Bucket with a very powerful Saturn (handle, elevated, exalted with Venus in domicile,...).

Which chart best describes Leonardo:
A. In his own times
B. As a historical figure

And, what does inclusion of the outer planets add to our understanding?

The Locomotive is both driven and driving. I think that's an important quality of this personality.

We could do that, but Leonardo's contemporaries didn't use chart patterns, either. I think I would end up with an interpretation that would approximate something between a locomotive and a bucket.

I would probably start with the almuten figuris, Venus, and look at her condition. Then the lord of the horoscope, Jupiter, and his condition. Then the Lights and planets with strong accidental dignity (Saturn). Etc. Triplicity rulers would be rather important. So Mars (one of the triplicity rulers of Venus, Jupiter, the Sun, the Moon, the MC & IC), and in the same sign as the hyleg (the part of fortune), would be given much more importance than he is given in a bucket pattern, but less then in the locomotive.*

With the inclusion of modern planets, we see them quite active in the chart. There's a strongly angular and elevated Neptune rx trine Venus and forming a yod with Pluto, Moon at the apex; we get Pluto square Sun as the trigger in the chart, and a rosetta formation with Saturn, Mars, Venus and Uranus...




*supposing that I would be working with essentially the same chart, because I'd use the Alcabitius house system, preferred by Bonatti, a fellow Italian (Placidus did not exist yet). The house cusps would be within 3° of where they are in Placidus.
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Unread 04-22-2019, 07:28 PM
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Re: Using planetary patterns: the Locomotive. Bobby Fisher - Leonardo DaVinci

Well you have a bucket tucked away in a locomotive. It is there, hidden in the greater pattern.

There is good balance of Elements and Qualities in the chart. Only one planet, Saturn, is Rx, a normal condition. There is a single forked opposition, Cardinal and Angular. Mars is cuttting; an expeditious man, a man of action looking outward. He meets life by bending circumstances in his favor, doing "what works". Immediate.

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Unread 04-26-2019, 11:06 AM
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Re: Using planetary patterns: the Locomotive. Bobby Fisher - Leonardo DaVinci

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Well you have a bucket tucked away in a locomotive. It is there, hidden in the greater pattern.
Do you think that if asked to guess the chart pattern of "the most diversely talented person to have ever lived", Jones would have picked the locomotive (or the bucket)? Wouldn't he have chosen the splash?

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Mars is cuttting; an expeditious man, a man of action looking outward. He meets life by bending circumstances in his favor, doing "what works". Immediate.
"Obstacles cannot crush me. Every obstacle yields to stern resolve. He who is fixed to a star does not change his mind." (Leonardo)

He was someone of such complexity and depth. His contemporaries described him as "friendly, precise, and generous, with a radiant, graceful expression" (Giovio), but he was also prone to bouts of depression and had a tendency to leave his commissions unfinished - so much so, that even though he was always working on something, at the age of thirty he still hardly had a single completed piece. "Art is never finished, only abandoned." (Leonardo)

"unlike Michelangelo, Leonardo was a master at painting women. From Ginevra de Benci to the Mona Lisa, his portraits of women are deeply sympathetic and psychologically insightful. His Ginevra is innovative, at least for Italy, by ushering in a three-quarter view for women’s poses rather than the full profile that was standard. This allows viewers to look at the eyes of the woman, which, as Leonardo declared, are “the window of the soul.” With Ginevra women were no longer presented as passive mannequins but were shown as people with their own thoughts and emotions." (Isaacson)
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Unread 04-28-2019, 03:26 PM
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Do you think that if asked to guess the chart pattern of "the most diversely talented person to have ever lived", Jones would have picked the locomotive (or the bucket)? Wouldn't he have chosen the splash?



"Obstacles cannot crush me. Every obstacle yields to stern resolve. He who is fixed to a star does not change his mind." (Leonardo)

He was someone of such complexity and depth. His contemporaries described him as "friendly, precise, and generous, with a radiant, graceful expression" (Giovio), but he was also prone to bouts of depression and had a tendency to leave his commissions unfinished - so much so, that even though he was always working on something, at the age of thirty he still hardly had a single completed piece. "Art is never finished, only abandoned." (Leonardo)

"unlike Michelangelo, Leonardo was a master at painting women. From Ginevra de Benci to the Mona Lisa, his portraits of women are deeply sympathetic and psychologically insightful. His Ginevra is innovative, at least for Italy, by ushering in a three-quarter view for women’s poses rather than the full profile that was standard. This allows viewers to look at the eyes of the woman, which, as Leonardo declared, are “the window of the soul.” With Ginevra women were no longer presented as passive mannequins but were shown as people with their own thoughts and emotions." (Isaacson)

Jones would have used the bucket. He did not use the modern planets for births occurring before their discovery. At their discovery these planets "enter human consciousness" and become effective.

The quote from Leonardo sounds "indomitable"; Mars. Also, L jumped from one brainstorm to the next, seldom finishing what he started; Mars.

With both Mars and Saturn brought to prominence -- depending on the perspective we adopt -- I wouldn't be surprised to find a manic-depressive.
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Unread 05-10-2019, 11:56 AM
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Re: Using planetary patterns: the Locomotive. Bobby Fisher - Leonardo DaVinci

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Jones would have used the bucket. He did not use the modern planets for births occurring before their discovery. At their discovery these planets "enter human consciousness" and become effective.

Do you agree with Jones on that? Doesn't it seem more logical that if we use modern techniques (like Jones' analysis of hemispheric patterns), then we must include modern planets because their creator was already aware of them when formulating their method?
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Unread 05-11-2019, 07:03 AM
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Re: Using planetary patterns: the Locomotive. Bobby Fisher - Leonardo 6DaVinci

Yes. Well, No, then Yes.

Jones reasons that a new planet is not effective until it "comes into human consciousness". This brings the modern planets into line with a modern world.

But in practice I apply modern planets to pre-discovery charts. Which means Leonardo has a chart of Locomotive pattern, Innovative Mars cutting.

Last edited by greybeard; 05-11-2019 at 07:09 AM.
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Unread 05-11-2019, 05:14 PM
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Re: Using planetary patterns: the Locomotive. Bobby Fisher - Leonardo 6DaVinci

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Yes. Well, No, then Yes.

Jones reasons that a new planet is not effective until it "comes into human consciousness". This brings the modern planets into line with a modern world.

But in practice I apply modern planets to pre-discovery charts. Which means Leonardo has a chart of Locomotive pattern, Innovative Mars cutting.


I understand Jones' point of view, but I don't agree with him.

"Ralph Waldo Emerson, the American transcendentalist, is an interesting example of a native who for forty-three years functioned as a bowl type, for the rest of his life enjoyed his celebrity as a bucket, and finally became one of the country's immortals in terms of his persisting influence as a locomotive individuality thanks to a trine brought to functioning despite the five-degree excess of a normal orb. Pluto as a cutting planet identifies the Hegelesque idealism for which he did yeoman missionary work, and that in many subtle ways gradually has come to have its own New World consummation." (Jones, p. 100)

When he chooses to use planetary patterns, he bypasses some traditional methods of delineating a chart (eg triplicity rulers, almuten figuris, etc) that would have been used before / instead of the new planets. That's why I think that for his method to work, we must use Uranus, Neptune and Pluto even if the native was born before their discovery. Otherwise we would not be looking at the same person. And I think that we should, no matter whether we use traditional, modern, or Vedic astrology. If we use planetary patterns without the newcomers, then the comparison between "modern" and "traditional" will not be a fair one: we'll basically put side by side a rather sophisticated modern interpretation and a Reader's Digest version of traditional astrology. I think that traditional astrology is able to say as much about the life and afterlife of Emerson as modern astrology, if we speak its language well enough.
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Unread 05-14-2019, 01:48 AM
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Re: Using planetary patterns: the Locomotive

Well.... I agree.
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