Free Will

I guess at the moment I'm going through a bit of a dilemma.
if we are to believe astrological events rule all aspects of our lives then where does free will fit, if at all and exactly how much of it do we possess.
I mean if the the natal chart depicts a life of dealing with health issues, or battling with depression, an inability to form relationships or perhaps poverty, infertility/impotence, addictions family issues, homelessness, psychosis, violence, well how can you overcome the natal promise, I mean if you got a poor aspected venus and a poorly populated 7th house, doesn't that mean you just never gonna find a way to have a long lasting loving relationship.
Where does free will feature there? I mean you could do all the meditation and spiritual growth in the world but that still doesn't change your Saturn in the 7th squaring your Venus now does it, there is always gonna be a saturn hard delaying heavy nature to your relationships and that person is always gonna find it hard to express the energy force of nature which is love because it doesn't flow through then in a good way cause of the sq, so what now, how does one progress overcome ones Karma and what is the point of a reading if there is nothing one can do with the insights gained.
Your thoughts.
Much appreciated

beatnikgirl said:

I guess at the moment I'm going through a bit of a dilemma.
if we are to believe astrological events rule all aspects of our lives then where does free will fit, if at all and exactly how much of it do we possess.
I mean if the the natal chart depicts a life of dealing with health issues, or battling with depression, an inability to form relationships or perhaps poverty, infertility/impotence, addictions family issues, homelessness, psychosis, violence, well how can you overcome the natal promise, I mean if you got a poor aspected venus and a poorly populated 7th house, doesn't that mean you just never gonna find a way to have a long lasting loving relationship.
Where does free will feature there? I mean you could do all the meditation and spiritual growth in the world but that still doesn't change your Saturn in the 7th squaring your Venus now does it, there is always gonna be a saturn hard delaying heavy nature to your relationships and that person is always gonna find it hard to express the energy force of nature which is love because it doesn't flow through then in a good way cause of the sq, so what now, how does one progress overcome ones Karma and what is the point of a reading if there is nothing one can do with the insights gained.
Your thoughts.
Much appreciated

Click to expand...

It's all in how you talk about it.

You say: Dealing with health issues
I say: Facing health concerns

You say: Battling depression
I say: You'll be fine

You say: Inability to form relationships
I say: Concreting my capacity to know myself as I relate to others

You say: Poverty
I say: Wealth is what you make of it

You say: Infertility/Impotence
I say: Realizing my ability and the capacity to seek other sources and ways to have children in my life

You say:Addictions to Family Issues
I say: Recognizing my own need to seek proper care for these concerns

You say: Concerned about psychosis
I say: No one is who recognizes their own potential to be absolutely nuts, can actually be crazy

You say: Violence
I say: Learn Self-Defense


You say: Venus square Saturn with Venus in the 7th
I say: Venus square Saturn with Venus in the 8th

Look to your Mercury, your 3rd house, and in general, how you think, to understanding how to work with your karma, how to speak and talk, your speech is your access to freeing your will.

I see the concept of free will as the choice to act with the flow of the universe, in harmony with all the energy that is there......and acting from the individual ego.

It is not what happens to us but how we dela with it that matters. Happiness is not dependent on the perfect job, relationship, bank account, but what you hold within your heart and give freely to the world.

We all have different sparks of life to explore......and that involves many different learning experiences. You can grow in wisdom more easily from a challenging life than one in which every wish is granted.

Hope that helps....
FleaXX

It is my sincere belief that the macrocosm influences and trends and induces susceptibilities: that with animals, these dominate, but that with human beings, these may be modified, and even superceded, by free will.
I absolutely oppose fatalism and determinism, in astrology (or in the divinatory arts)

Beatnik girl,
Our charts *progress*-we do still have the basic natal, but that depicts *how we began*-our starting point.
We have *free will* at every point-we can *go with the flow* as Flea suggests, or we can refuse to..different outcomes will occur.
Compare your natal chart with your Progressed chart-that can be very revealing if you are wanting to know how your life is *progressing*.
Personally I do believe we all come here for a reason, and it can take a long time to figure out what that reason is.Astrology can certainly help us with that. We can use Horary astrology to ask questions about big decisions confronting us. We can cast Event charts to help us find a good time to act.
Transits to our natal do give us some information too, which we can use in a constructive way, avoiding danger, waiting til an aspect becomes helpful etc.
We can relocate, if our birth place is difficult for us..
Like Dr Farr, I dont believe anything is *ordained*.Our chart only shows what we have to work with and what we need to overcome, or grow through.
Cheers
Lilly

i believe free will is a theory which was brought to reality by only very few(may be)
others will just talk and read about it

Positive mental attitude goes a long long way. If you always negative self talk, then your subconscious mind starts to believe what rubbish you are self talking and like genie and aladdin's lamp your subconscious mind will *birth into your reality* all which you have been fearing ---

What Astrology Can and Can Not Do
http://www.ofspirit.com/susanmiller1.htm
http://www.cafeastrology.com/articles/whatastrologycandoforyou.html

Firstly, for a proper evaluation you should consider posting your chart with progressions and transits on same wheel found in extended chart selection. Reduce the ratio of orbs to 80%, select smallest image size 63% on picture,then choose house system (my personal preference is for Equal house rather than the default of placidus), right mouse click and select 'save target pic as' and save to hard drive then upload here
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24043
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24042

the above threads are 'how to' get, select and post the correct charts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beatnikgirl
I guess at the moment I'm going through a bit of a dilemma.
if we are to believe astrological events rule all aspects of our lives then where does free will fit, if at all and exactly how much of it do we possess.
I mean if the the natal chart depicts a life of dealing with health issues, or battling with depression, an inability to form relationships or perhaps poverty, infertility/impotence, addictions family issues, homelessness, psychosis, violence, well how can you overcome the natal promise, I mean if you got a poor aspected venus and a poorly populated 7th house, doesn't that mean you just never gonna find a way to have a long lasting loving relationship.
Where does free will feature there? I mean you could do all the meditation and spiritual growth in the world but that still doesn't change your Saturn in the 7th squaring your Venus now does it, there is always gonna be a saturn hard delaying heavy nature to your relationships and that person is always gonna find it hard to express the energy force of nature which is love because it doesn't flow through then in a good way cause of the sq, so what now, how does one progress overcome ones Karma and what is the point of a reading if there is nothing one can do with the insights gained.
Your thoughts.
Much appreciated
It's all in how you talk about it.

You say: Dealing with health issues
I say: Facing health concerns

You say: Battling depression
I say: You'll be fine

You say: Inability to form relationships
I say: Concreting my capacity to know myself as I relate to others

You say: Poverty
I say: Wealth is what you make of it

You say: Infertility/Impotence
I say: Realizing my ability and the capacity to seek other sources and ways to have children in my life

You say:Addictions to Family Issues
I say: Recognizing my own need to seek proper care for these concerns

You say: Concerned about psychosis
I say: No one is who recognizes their own potential to be absolutely nuts, can actually be crazy

You say: Violence
I say: Learn Self-Defense


You say: Venus square Saturn with Venus in the 7th
I say: Venus square Saturn with Venus in the 8th

Look to your Mercury, your 3rd house, and in general, how you think, to understanding how to work with your karma, how to speak and talk, your speech is your access to freeing your will.

The above issues were not issues I personally face, some are some are issues my loved ones are going through my Mother, my Partner my best friend and a close work colleague I've run charts for all of them and I see a lot of the issues they are experiencing right there in the natal chart, but I can't see a way to help them change things, I mean, the violence thing I've helped them by putting them in touch with agencies that can help, but culturally I know they are unlikely to leave that violent background behind they can't, no matter how much help I offer them.

The Addictions and family issue are two separate problems, one a close friend faces and has been struggling with for years they get clean for a while and then as soon as a hard transit occurs they try to escape reality by using alcohol, I see yet another hard transit happening in 6 months so I know they are gonna crash and I feel powerless to help them.

The family issues are mine I work on those every day it's dealing with my relationship with my mother and also dealing with the fact it's looking increasingly unlikely I'll ever become a mother myself, this is hard cause I used to believe all the tough times I went through and survived with my mother would make me a better more sympathetic and loving mother, and I'm sure it has, but biology seems unwilling to play ball to ever putting this into practice.

The Saturn Sq Venus in 7th is another friend they suffer with depression as well mainly because they see others in happy relationships and never seem to be able to maintain one themselves, they work hard read all those self help nonsense books but they just never meet anyone who is that interested in them, they were with someone for a while but that person suffered from severe depression and actually told them they couldn't sustain a relationship cause they were ill and needed to work on themselves.

Anyway all of this comes down to the same thing with all I see in mine and others charts I feel powerless to change anything and have come to think well what use is knowing why someones life experience follows a certain path if no action can be taken to change it.

I do acknowledge the things you say modcleopatra changes can be made you can change your attitude to how you deal with problems but surely it's just always a battle, no real progress really occurs, I often feel like in my own personal issues I just go round and round in circles that I'm fenced in at every juncture.

I can understand the issues with a Venus/Saturn natal aspect. But I also know that progress is made over time, sometimes, as already mentioned, a long time. But progress is made, we do learn as long as we don't give up trying to learn. Each situation has a chance for us to learn sometime about ourselves, it requires work. So easy to say, that's my lot in life, ect. This is also our free will to make what we can of the energies we have in our charts.

I have Chiron square Sun natally. I could live in a world of pain, refusing to learn from whatever lessons Chiron brings. Or I could put in the work to try and learn as much as I can. Look back over the last decade or two and see how differently I treat certain situations then to now.

I wonder also, do we have less free will when we are young because we have less experience in life? So are acting more from our natal aspects, still to learn the lessons they hold? Acting from instincts?

NR

astrologer50 said:

Positive mental attitude goes a long long way. If you always negative self talk, then your subconscious mind starts to believe what rubbish you are self talking and like genie and aladdin's lamp your subconscious mind will *birth into your reality* all which you have been fearing ---

What Astrology Can and Can Not Do
http://www.ofspirit.com/susanmiller1.htm
http://www.cafeastrology.com/articles/whatastrologycandoforyou.html

Firstly, for a proper evaluation you should consider posting your chart with progressions and transits on same wheel found in extended chart selection. Reduce the ratio of orbs to 80%, select smallest image size 63% on picture,then choose house system (my personal preference is for Equal house rather than the default of placidus), right mouse click and select 'save target pic as' and save to hard drive then upload here
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24043
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24042

the above threads are 'how to' get, select and post the correct charts.

Click to expand...

Here's my progressed natal chart as you requested, I feel like I'm going through a major midlife crisis at the moment so I guess the progressed chart should throw some light on whats causing this total disillusionment.
Although I'm inclined to blame Pluto transiting my Jupiter in my 11th house hence while I feel helpless to solve the problems of others.

I've post chart using Placidus and equal, personally I've found Placidus fits actual events that have occurred in my life, however natally Placidus suggest Mars and Venus in my 4th house, which in my experience just doesn't fit, I'm more inclined to think Saturn is in the 4th absent father, grandparents brought me up, mother suffered with depression, we had our house repossessed when I was a kid, I'm always having problems with things breaking down falling apart in my home, so seems like Saturn fits the bill to the 4th, more than Mars Venus, however Mars and Venus in my 5th don't quite fit either. Moon in the 9th fits better from a spiritual point of view, but then I guess that could just be Neptune in close proximity to it.
anyway here goes. I really appreciate your insight.


Perhaps if I can learn how to deal with my own problems at the moment it will make me a little stronger and able to help my friends and family more.

Where does free will feature there? I mean you could do all the meditation and spiritual growth in the world but that still doesn't change your Saturn in the 7th squaring your Venus now does it, there is always gonna be a saturn hard delaying heavy nature to your relationships and that person is always gonna find it hard to express the energy force of nature which is love because it doesn't flow through then in a good way cause of the sq, so what now, how does one progress overcome ones Karma and what is the point of a reading if there is nothing one can do with the insights gained.

Click to expand...

Your prog moon 4months ago was conjunct chiron in third. I can't see anything activating your Saturn/Neptune opposition - this one can be depressive and conj MC to suggest no clearly defined work/career calling. I think smilingsteph has neptune conj MC. Your Moon only has two aspects conj Neptune again emotionaly disillusionment connected to mother from childhood, either emotionally unavailable or smother loved you. So the emotions are elusive to you, BUT this is what you Soul wanted to learn, issues to do with motherhood, emotions, dreams fantasies, illusions, confusions, to see if you can hang onto and develop your 'sun's core values beliefs and pride.' Sun being conj 4th house cusp again, ties in issues around family

The 'aspects' are here like obstacles as if you were running around a hurdles track. They can be overcome with Free will, it just takes time, energy and determination to work things out internally. the squares cause enough tension to get you off your backside and do the work needed.

Saturn does not deny a relationship but looks for commitment, serious people who don't play with their affections. Provided you put the effort in Saturn will reward you ... eventually. It may not be that persons 'Lesson' to be involved with relationship and alike, have you thought of this? Not everyone wants a relationship OR children even. They may want to focus on creativity, music, career and/or travelling for example..

I see you have having T Saturn conj pluto at the moment

The main theme tends to be facing responsibility in the face of corruption. This is a time when you have to concentrate your interests more deeply and narrowly, most often because you are going through a financial burden or some other kind of shortage. This is also a time to get rid of any rules and regulations that do not adequately meet the demands that you are experiencing. Many of the habits that you have grown used to, simply do not apply anymore. You may have to live with austere circumstances for a while. The authorities may not be dependable, or may be corrupt
http://www.astrology-x-files.com/transits/saturn-cj-pluto.html

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beatnikgirl said:

I guess at the moment I'm going through a bit of a dilemma.
if we are to believe astrological events rule all aspects of our lives then where does free will fit, if at all and exactly how much of it do we possess.
I mean if the the natal chart depicts a life of dealing with health issues, or battling with depression, an inability to form relationships or perhaps poverty, infertility/impotence, addictions family issues, homelessness, psychosis, violence, well how can you overcome the natal promise, I mean if you got a poor aspected venus and a poorly populated 7th house, doesn't that mean you just never gonna find a way to have a long lasting loving relationship.
Where does free will feature there? I mean you could do all the meditation and spiritual growth in the world but that still doesn't change your Saturn in the 7th squaring your Venus now does it, there is always gonna be a saturn hard delaying heavy nature to your relationships and that person is always gonna find it hard to express the energy force of nature which is love because it doesn't flow through then in a good way cause of the sq, so what now, how does one progress overcome ones Karma and what is the point of a reading if there is nothing one can do with the insights gained.
Your thoughts.
Much appreciated

Click to expand...

where is your chart?

Tik,

post number 10 are the charts, bit too much asteriods for me personally, cos it makes it harder to read the charts. I say this cos the aspect grid gets soooo small you can hardly read the degrees of the planets or aspects properly...

I imagine the dialogue that gave rise to the concept of freewill might have been along the following lines :-

God
Hi Luci...Apparently, we can now put Souls into physical bodies on that planet Earth....So, I'm gonna try it with WORD....and wondered if you'd like to oversee the project.

Lucifer
Yeah Sourci, I'm good to go on anything that might provide a bit of excitement around here....What's the plan?

God
We split WORD into an infinite number of individual Souls; send each of them to Earth to experience physical existence; gather them back together afterwards and get WORD to report back anything interesting.

Lucifer
Overseeing that doesn't sound like much fun...Why not allow these individual Souls to have "freewill"?

God
Huh?......What's freewill, Luci?

Lucifer
Glad you asked, as I've been thinking a lot about this recently...We give them a mind of their own and...(here's the fun part Sourci)...make it unaware of the Soul's existence, so that it has no conscious knowledge of your plan/experiment...Then, we see what develops from there.

God
Sounds good to me....What shall we call this independent mind that can exercise freewill?....And, should we have some kind of "failsafe device" for each Soul to make it aware of my plan if freewill turns out to be a probelm?

Lucifer
I suggest we call it the Ego...and give each Soul a map of it's purpose at the time it is born...We could call that a natal chart.

God
But, how do we ensure that the Ego will exercise it's freewill to follow the natal chart plan if the Soul tells it to do so?

Lucifer
No problem, Sourci...I'll be overseeing the project, and guiding WORD along the right path

[Note : It has taken me over a half-century to recognise that - when I thought I was exercising freewiill - I was actually subconsciously following the negative behaviour patterns in my natal chart. A "puppet of the gods" (and nurturing) rather than a person thinking for himself.... http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8781&highlight=Freewill ]


-

I kind of understoof it goes back to the two trees in the garden of eden....though not as funny as EJ's....

The tree of knowledge of good and evil......means we have a choice to make and that is the essence of free will. The Tree of Life is the one we probably have more problems with though....because we get so caught up in the question of the first tree.

FleaXX

astrologer50 said:

Positive mental attitude goes a long long way. If you always negative self talk, then your subconscious mind starts to believe what rubbish you are self talking and like genie and aladdin's lamp your subconscious mind will *birth into your reality* all which you have been fearing ---

Click to expand...

freewill and positive mental attitude are different

It seems like this thread deviated a bit from it's main purpose; the concept of free will itself.

I'd say that Astrology actually augments your free will. Being aware of your faults and tendencies, you are more able to work against them.
Also, Astrology indicates things that tend to happen, daily dispositions, or, in a more simplified way, the general course of things.
Obviously, the general course of things doesn't affect the little choices you make on your daily life, like studying, for example. Or accepting this job offer, or another. Or starting relationship A or B.

Astrology doesn't indicate what choices you make, but it may help you understand the outcome.
If you decide to study for exam X, and you have it on a bad day, you may be able to save the exam with a lower grade. If the situation is opposite, and the day is good, then you may score the same grade without any work.

But imagine if you actually worked really hard for an exam in a bad day? You can get a better grade than the later situation (doing the exam in a good day, without any previous study).

And what did Astrology say about you studying or not? Nada.

Yet, the decision you made yourself changed the outcome of things.

Astrology never said a Leo rising and a Scorpio rising would never have a relationship.
Do you people realize how many Astrologically incompatible relationships are currently going? And many of them actually work. But maybe the effort required for the relationships to work is higher.

Free will complements Astrology itself. This is my opinion, of course. Heh, I could've said some more things, but I'll leave it like this.