Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

moonkat235

Well-known member
So question is.... Who makes up the fate? Who sits in the sky and writes people's lives and destinies. I'd like to speak to their manager. Hahah

No but seriously. This question is for the fate supporters ,I'm just curious.

I don't really have an opinion or definitive answer on who made the universe. I also think if something is pulling the strings so to speak that they are most likely beyond human understanding in most cases.

What I mean is that whatever created the universe shouldn't be personified as a who in the first place, because I just doubt it's human-like.

I also think a lot of scientific evidence supports a lack of free will. We're just not conscious of the influences in our lives that dictate our behaviors and thoughts. Personally, I think free will is an illusion most people should have. I still live like I have free will, while understanding that's probably erroneous and it doesn't matter.

Btw, ardentika, I think you commented once that you used to live in a deterministic mindset believing you were meant for depression or whatever and then you decided to overcome it with free will? I don't think living in a deterministic mindset means you should ever just 'give up' and resign yourself to your fate or w/e. I don't personally believe fate is stagnant. I don't think if you're born with depressive tendencies that it means fate makes you that way forever. I just mean that if you were to 'overcome' depression/anxiety that it was fated and determined by subconscious or conscious influences (i.e. fate) and it wasn't all up to your 'free will'.
 

moonkat235

Well-known member
I agree with this. I believe the world is more deterministic than free. You can't help cosmic positions, weather patterns, the sociopolitical climate of your birthplace, whether you were forced to drink polluted water or bathed in DDT as a child, which language you were allowed to speak at home, and so forth. This much is obvious. The likelihood of you personally transcending these circumstances is generally small. It's really a very tiny range where we have agency and yet it causes people so much anxiety!

I'm personally obsessed with an even smaller window of possibility: overcoming oppressive circumstances without replicating them.

Yes that's probably why mundane astrology is so influential. I think JA mentioned there are tiers to the types of charts and their influence?

Language is very powerful. Like how some languages have genders to most words, etc. I also think connotations, colloquialisms and range of vocabulary is highly influential in one's perceptions of reality. A larger vocabulary facilitates a more nuanced communication of ideas/concepts.

Astrology is a bit of a language in and of itself and like most languages, I think it is evolving and taking from other fields/languages in its evolution.

passiflora, have you read up on split brain studies? I linked an article on random thoughts a while back. That article and my neuroscience class was highly influential in solidifying my belief in determinism.
 

david starling

Well-known member
Yes that's probably why mundane astrology is so influential. I think JA mentioned there are tiers to the types of charts and their influence?

Language is very powerful. Like how some languages have genders to most words, etc. I also think connotations, colloquialisms and range of vocabulary is highly influential in one's perceptions of reality. A larger vocabulary facilitates a more nuanced communication of ideas/concepts.

Astrology is a bit of a language in and of itself and like most languages, I think it is evolving and taking from other fields/languages in its evolution.

passiflora, have you read up on split brain studies? I linked an article on random thoughts a while back. That article and my neuroscience class was highly influential in solidifying my belief in determinism.

Free-will Determinism would be the opposite of Fated Determinism. Causing things to happen by our own chosen actions, versus things that happen due to some unspecified force entirely external to, and unaffected by, our will.
 

moonkat235

Well-known member
moonkat, I generally read only clinical neuroscience :) My belief in a largely deterministic social order was formed fairly young because I was taught to see the differences in opportunity that people have. If the Capricorn age, as David has it, is problematically institutionalizing free will, it's problematic because it's used to let corrupt forms of social organization off the hook. Vulnerable people who commit petty crime are punished mercilessly because, those in power say, they had the agency to know better. You can see how the concepts are manipulated for the benefit of certain people.

However, free will is an extremely useful concept to apply to our own personal development.

That's chill. Is Nature, the International Journal of Science not credible in your opinion? We read this article for my bio class at University. What journals do you read? (Also should we take this to Random Thoughts as it's not strictly astrological?)
 

moonkat235

Well-known member
Free-will Determinism would be the opposite of Fated Determinism. Causing things to happen by our own chosen actions, versus things that happen due to some unspecified force entirely external to, and unaffected by, our will.

Hm I mean fated determinism. I don't think we choose our actions in the sense that we do it of our own volition. I mean that our desires and volition are caused by subconscious influences. For instance what we find pleasing on an aesthetic level isn't really consciously chosen so much as influenced by our early years. I think what we desire and what we take pleasure from are largely developed by our early experiences and largely unchangeable.

Further, how much 'free will' do you really have as an infant or toddler? Your environment is highly influential in who you are/become. I'm not saying if your parents are abusive that you will be abusive. Not at all. Such an experience could cause you to develop a deeper level of empathy and understanding of others' suffering and inspire you to strive to never replicate such an experience in another person's life. However, you wouldn't have been so inspired had you lived another life.
 
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moonkat235

Well-known member
I'm honestly not quite sure what the topic of this thread is! I just mean I am interested more in clinical neuroscience than research neuroscience, as it concerns the nuts and bolts of using the information.

Yeah it might all be fine. I got nervous for a sec that this would be moderated later, but I'm over it. I'm not sure what the topic of the thread is either anymore. lol
 

SunConjunctUranus

Well-known member
Traditional astrology in medieval period is basically Arabian tradition - post Emperor Constantine rose to power. Arabian didn't know many philosophy of the stars at the time, so they paid a great sum of money to acquire it from Byzantine's "refuges", Persian, and also from Hindus people. The following is a good article on elaboration on astrology by the enemy of astrology itself - the Apostle.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02018e.htm

Just think about it. Tilsam (Talisman), remedies, mantras, gemstone, etc are premium aka expensive. While the Lord Christos sacrifice himself, so the Eucharist is accessible to ALL human. Passiflora, you're be invited to join the Army of Lord. :smile:
 

SunConjunctUranus

Well-known member
I read most of that article and still didn't get anything out of it on the question of the use of remedies to affect one's fate. There was a brief allusion to the concept in a description of medical astrology.

Uranus, are you going the way of petosiris? Far from us divinators and dream-interpreters?

Tbh, I can't hate astrology as astrology itself help me to understand about Christian faith in deeper way.

What is your spiritual background btw?
 

SunConjunctUranus

Well-known member
I was taught to respect all faiths. Of course, that means you notice when the modern day teachers discourage you from doing things that comprised a very interesting part of the story. Such as Joseph who could read Pharaoh's dream.

Anyone should accept the discouragement if it could bring you bad consequenses. Limiting someone's potential with predetermined relevation is small example.
 

ardentika

Well-known member
I don't really have an opinion or definitive answer on who made the universe. I also think if something is pulling the strings so to speak that they are most likely beyond human understanding in most cases.

What I mean is that whatever created the universe shouldn't be personified as a who in the first place, because I just doubt it's human-like.

I also think a lot of scientific evidence supports a lack of free will. We're just not conscious of the influences in our lives that dictate our behaviors and thoughts. Personally, I think free will is an illusion most people should have. I still live like I have free will, while understanding that's probably erroneous and it doesn't matter.

Btw, ardentika, I think you commented once that you used to live in a deterministic mindset believing you were meant for depression or whatever and then you decided to overcome it with free will? I don't think living in a deterministic mindset means you should ever just 'give up' and resign yourself to your fate or w/e. I don't personally believe fate is stagnant. I don't think if you're born with depressive tendencies that it means fate makes you that way forever. I just mean that if you were to 'overcome' depression/anxiety that it was fated and determined by subconscious or conscious influences (i.e. fate) and it wasn't all up to your 'free will'.
I know all those statements. Many believe free will doesn't exist just because your subconscious mind makes a decision 5 seconds before it comes to the conscious mind. But your subconscious mind is still you.
Yes there is a mechanism inside that seems to be more important than our conscious mind for obvious reasons, but we do have a conscious mind for a reason. I believe our free will goes to intention.

We have the free will to set an intention that changes our whole life and fate. We don't control the events that are byproduct of this intention but it changes our lives. So just by me setting the intention that I will heal my tendancies , fate set up a series of events to help me do so. But people who don't make intentions simply follow a path.

I do believe there is a higher power.guided by love most of the time. I do think we can't see the full picture and us as a whole becoming more aware it's challenging us to be more trusting cos with all our awareness we still can't see the bigger picture. I don't think the universe denies requests, I don't think this mechanism knows a NO. Ans that's why many people attract what they don't want. Me including. I often forget this and fall into negative thinking. But again that doesn't always work.

For example, from the ages of 10 till 20 maybe,I was sure I wasn't gonna live till mature age. I was smart enough to know it was an irrational thought and fear,but there it was. I'm 24,so I'd say I passed it. I did 2 past life regressions that showed me dying somewhere before this age in 2 past lives. I don't know if I believe in past lives but it's a fact something in my subconscious mind was feeling this. Even tho I was thinking it , I didn't attract it.

It's complex. Maybe my feeling was methaphorical because I did experience a methaphorical death at the age of 20-21 and I was never the same person. So maybe in a sense I did attract it? Or maybe I was just feeling what's to come long before it happened? Who knows. It's a fact that my north node is in Scorpio .

So I guess we will never know the answer.
 

moonkat235

Well-known member
I know all those statements. Many believe free will doesn't exist just because your subconscious mind makes a decision 5 seconds before it comes to the conscious mind. But your subconscious mind is still you.
Yes there is a mechanism inside that seems to be more important than our conscious mind for obvious reasons, but we do have a conscious mind for a reason. I believe our free will goes to intention.

We have the free will to set an intention that changes our whole life and fate. We don't control the events that are byproduct of this intention but it changes our lives. So just by me setting the intention that I will heal my tendancies , fate set up a series of events to help me do so. But people who don't make intentions simply follow a path.

I do believe there is a higher power.guided by love most of the time. I do think we can't see the full picture and us as a whole becoming more aware it's challenging us to be more trusting cos with all our awareness we still can't see the bigger picture. I don't think the universe denies requests, I don't think this mechanism knows a NO. Ans that's why many people attract what they don't want. Me including. I often forget this and fall into negative thinking. But again that doesn't always work.

For example, from the ages of 10 till 20 maybe,I was sure I wasn't gonna live till mature age. I was smart enough to know it was an irrational thought and fear,but there it was. I'm 24,so I'd say I passed it. I did 2 past life regressions that showed me dying somewhere before this age in 2 past lives. I don't know if I believe in past lives but it's a fact something in my subconscious mind was feeling this. Even tho I was thinking it , I didn't attract it.

It's complex. Maybe my feeling was methaphorical because I did experience a methaphorical death at the age of 20-21 and I was never the same person. So maybe in a sense I did attract it? Or maybe I was just feeling what's to come long before it happened? Who knows. It's a fact that my north node is in Scorpio .

So I guess we will never know the answer.

Personally I think the subconscious mind is influenced and influences us in various untold ways. I mean, just because the subconscious mind is you (how would you define yourself, where are the edges of who you are?), doesn't mean the subconscious is within control of your conscious mind or your will. I view your conscious experience as the tip of the iceberg personally and I think that your conscious experience has been determined by your subconscious (influences which you are unaware of, in simplistic terms).

In my opinion, your fear of death from those ages probably stemmed from a subconscious influence and your conscious desire to overcome it probably also came from a subconscious influence. That's what I'm saying. What you consciously will is determined by influences that you have no awareness of nor control over.

Like I said though, free will is an illusion most people need. I think that's fair to say.

And regarding how the universe does not deny requests... That logic can be applied in a variety of insidious ways, such as 'she/he was asking for it'. Do individuals request the mass devastation of a hurricane, etc? Further, how does an infant request their life experiences? A lot of psychologists mention how your ego develops around age 7 (your first Saturn square) and somehow experiences up to that age are highly influential in your identity throughout life. I don't think the universe is so simple or giving as to say that every request from any person is granted.
 
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ardentika

Well-known member
Personally I think the subconscious mind is influenced and influences us in various untold ways. I mean, just because the subconscious mind is you (how would you define yourself, where are the edges of who you are?), doesn't mean the subconscious is within control of your conscious mind or your will. I view your conscious experience as the tip of the iceberg personally and I think that your conscious experience has been determined by your subconscious (influences which you are unaware of, in simplistic terms).

In my opinion, your fear of death from those ages probably stemmed from a subconscious influence and your conscious desire to overcome it probably also came from a subconscious influence. That's what I'm saying. What you consciously will is determined by influences that you have no awareness of nor control over.

Like I said though, free will is an illusion most people need. I think that's fair to say.

And regarding how the universe does not deny requests... That logic can be applied in a variety of insidious ways, such as 'she/he was asking for it'. Do individuals request the mass devastation of a hurricane, etc? Further, how does an infant request their life experiences? A lot of psychologists mention how your ego develops around age 7 (your first Saturn square) and somehow experiences up to that age are highly influential in your identity throughout life. I don't think the universe is so simple or giving as to say that any every request from any person is granted.
Our consicous mind defines the edges of who we are. You have prolly heard that the subconscious mind is like a sponge and knows no good and bad. There is no filter. It takes consicous effort to reprogram it in a certain direction.
Mass destruction is another topic. We go into collective consciousness. I don't know. Maybe they did ask for it on some level. After all it's all experiences.

And I think the universe is that simple in a way. Which goes to the self fulfilled prophecies. If you believe you will fail, you prolly will. Something inside wanted you to experience this. Only humans perceive things as good and bad. We created this perception. But if you try to push it further, it's all just experience. And maybe we can be mindful of what we want to experience.
 

moonkat235

Well-known member
Our consicous mind defines the edges of who we are. You have prolly heard that the subconscious mind is like a sponge and knows no good and bad. There is no filter. It takes consicous effort to reprogram it in a certain direction.
Mass destruction is another topic. We go into collective consciousness. I don't know. Maybe they did ask for it on some level. After all it's all experiences.

And I think the universe is that simple in a way. Which goes to the self fulfilled prophecies. If you believe you will fail, you prolly will. Something inside wanted you to experience this. Only humans perceive things as good and bad. We created this perception. But if you try to push it further, it's all just experience. And maybe we can be mindful of what we want to experience.

I'm confused. Are you saying the conscious mind (which is how you define yourself or an individual exclusively?) is independent of the subconscious or collective unconscious? I'm just unconvinced personally, but I will say for the record that I think and behave as if I have free will. I just acknowledge my conscious waking awareness has probably been completely determined by 'fate'.

I don't believe the conscious is independent of all else. I believe the opposite actually.

I'm also confused by how the conscious mind defines the edges of who we are, but the subconscious mind is still us (as per one of your earlier posts).

What do you think about children and infants within the context of free will? Do you think they have as much free will as an adult, given how their psyches and emotional control and even physical control are still developing? Do you think an infant requests to be abandoned by its mother? Further, how does one's free will interact with another's in your ideology? Just curious. What if individuals' wills go against each other?

Further, why are you interest in astrology at all? Do you think predictions can be made accurately if the native has the 'free will' to change it?
 
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ardentika

Well-known member
I'm confused. Are you saying the conscious mind (which is how you define yourself or an individual exclusively?) is independent of the subconscious or collective unconscious? I'm just unconvinced personally, but I will say for the record that I think and behave as if I have free will. I just acknowledge my conscious waking awareness has probably been completely determined by 'fate'.

I don't believe the conscious is independent of all else. I believe the opposite actually.

I'm also confused by how the conscious mind defines the edges of who we are, but the subconscious mind is still us (as per one of your earlier posts).

What do you think about children and infants within the context of free will? Do you think they have as much free will as an adult, given how their psyches and emotional control and even physical control are still developing? Do you think an infant requests to be abandoned by its mother? Further, how does one's free will interact with another's in your ideology? Just curious. What if individuals' wills go against each other?

Further, why are you interest in astrology at all? Do you think predictions can be made accurately if the native has the 'free will' to change it?

No, I'm not saying the conscious mind is seperate from the subconscious one. I just think they work together. The conscious mind processes what the subconscious one brings. It's like an endless source that helps us define ourselves. It gives us information, challenges, events and the conscious mind decides how to process them and what to take out of them.

I don't think kids have free will in the sense that an adult does, but then it goes back to what is fate and how does it work. If fate is simply a setting up of events for the future, then maybe our soul chose this experience of a certain family and/or being abandoned. The soul has a memory and if we believe the South Node deals with past lives, then this is where our childhood is too. I personally don't feel okay believing I was a victim of circumstances and never chose to be born in this family or born at all, cos I do feel this when it gets heavy but it brings me only more pain, and I rather not have it.

I've never had a prediction done so I can't say honestly cos I never experienced it. But I've seen mostly people trying to fit a chart to an event that already happened. So I don't even think it's possible to make a prediction. It's one thing to have an idea what energies will be at play, which to me isn't exactly a prediction. It's another to say "You will be 27 when you meet your spouse, and 30 when you will have your first kid." that's something I don't see. Why is that?

TO answer your question, astrology helps me understand myself better. My chart is challenging and I've always been drawn to the occult anyways, psychology and mysteries,so astrology was just another tool for me. Like tarot, or meditation, or reiki..
 

moonkat235

Well-known member
No, I'm not saying the conscious mind is seperate from the subconscious one. I just think they work together. The conscious mind processes what the subconscious one brings. It's like an endless source that helps us define ourselves. It gives us information, challenges, events and the conscious mind decides how to process them and what to take out of them.

I don't think kids have free will in the sense that an adult does, but then it goes back to what is fate and how does it work. If fate is simply a setting up of events for the future, then maybe our soul chose this experience of a certain family and/or being abandoned. The soul has a memory and if we believe the South Node deals with past lives, then this is where our childhood is too. I personally don't feel okay believing I was a victim of circumstances and never chose to be born in this family or born at all, cos I do feel this when it gets heavy but it brings me only more pain, and I rather not have it.

I've never had a prediction done so I can't say honestly cos I never experienced it. But I've seen mostly people trying to fit a chart to an event that already happened. So I don't even think it's possible to make a prediction. It's one thing to have an idea what energies will be at play, which to me isn't exactly a prediction. It's another to say "You will be 27 when you meet your spouse, and 30 when you will have your first kid." that's something I don't see. Why is that?

TO answer your question, astrology helps me understand myself better. My chart is challenging and I've always been drawn to the occult anyways, psychology and mysteries,so astrology was just another tool for me. Like tarot, or meditation, or reiki..

Thank you for your point of view. Our perspectives are just at odds and potentially damaging to the other so I’m gonna let this go. I don’t see myself as just a victim of fate though. I’m not sure there’s a point in having discussions like these.

Actually though on the issue of predictions and timing, traditional astrology and Vedic I think attempt to make the predictions you claim you’ve never seen done regarding meeting a spouse at x age etc.
 
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