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Mundane Astrology Discuss the astrology of towns, cities, states, provinces, countries, empires, and the world in general.


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  #51  
Unread 03-23-2006, 08:28 PM
Laura Elizabeth Laura Elizabeth is offline
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I've really enjoyed this thread

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Another chart I use for the United States is 17 September 1787 - the signing of the U.S. Constitution and 4 March 1789 - when the constitution went into effect.
I'm glad to see someone else uses the Constitution dates as well!

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  #52  
Unread 03-24-2006, 03:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laura Elizabeth
I've really enjoyed this thread

Quote:
Another chart I use for the United States is 17 September 1787 - the signing of the U.S. Constitution and 4 March 1789 - when the constitution went into effect.
I'm glad to see someone else uses the Constitution dates as well!
The classical Quaker astrologers maintained that March was best date to swear in a new president. In fact, early March was used until it was changed by the 20th Amendment in the 1930s to January 20th - not March. The Jan. 20th date coicides with the transiting Sun conjoined to the constellation Aquila, the Eagle, and its main star Altair, near Aquarius.

The March date trines the Scorpio November election Sun and the July 4 Cancer Sun and Jupiter's position in Cancer - water trines.
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  #53  
Unread 03-24-2006, 02:07 PM
Laura Elizabeth Laura Elizabeth is offline
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Originally Posted by Theo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laura Elizabeth
I've really enjoyed this thread

Quote:
Another chart I use for the United States is 17 September 1787 - the signing of the U.S. Constitution and 4 March 1789 - when the constitution went into effect.
I'm glad to see someone else uses the Constitution dates as well!
The classical Quaker astrologers maintained that March was best date to swear in a new president. In fact, early March was used until it was changed by the 20th Amendment in the 1930s to January 20th - not March. The Jan. 20th date coicides with the transiting Sun conjoined to the constellation Aquila, the Eagle, and its main star Altair, near Aquarius.

The March date trines the Scorpio November election Sun and the July 4 Cancer Sun and Jupiter's position in Cancer - water trines.
I hadn't thought of it that way, Theo. Also, traditionally, the new year in the Old Country began at the Aries Ingress - approximately March 20 - 25 - so I always thought that the March date for inauguration was a reflection of the ways in which life had been charted for centuries, but wondered why they just didn't continue with the Aries ingress timing. Setting inauguration to trine with the November election and the Declaration's "birth" makes sense.
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  #54  
Unread 03-24-2006, 02:13 PM
Laura Elizabeth Laura Elizabeth is offline
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Also Theo, completely off-topic, your discussion on Quakers and astrology has intrigued me. I had no idea there was a connection, though I've been - studying isn't the right word, but it's the only one I have - studying Quaker philosophy on and off for several years. Could you point out some websites (or books) for me to follow? I've doing some searching and have found some, but being pointed in the right direction would be muchly appreciated
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  #55  
Unread 03-25-2006, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laura Elizabeth
Also Theo, completely off-topic, your discussion on Quakers and astrology has intrigued me. I had no idea there was a connection, though I've been - studying isn't the right word, but it's the only one I have - studying Quaker philosophy on and off for several years. Could you point out some websites (or books) for me to follow? I've doing some searching and have found some, but being pointed in the right direction would be muchly appreciated
Hi Laura,

There are documents of the Quakers involved with astrology, but those who were astrologers were part of the mystic group started from German immigrants and followers of Jakob Bohme who settled in northwest Philadelphia, or Germantown. Try to enter this into a search engine and look for references to Franklin, the Quakers, and astrologers. I will take a look in my library for more references in the meantime and get back to you when I find something. Let me know how your studies are going on Quaker philosophy.
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  #56  
Unread 03-25-2006, 01:45 PM
Futurist Futurist is offline
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Hi Guys,

Been absent for a week trying to locate cause of major glitch in my computer (Mercury RX !) causing it to crash every 5 mins but back now and just caught up on this great thread. Theo you write some interesting stuff -it's going in a really interesting direction

Just wanted to say that Linda Goodman, who I am sure most of us only equate with her books 'Sun Signs' and 'Love Signs' also wrote a fascinating book called Star signs. She chose a bad title for actually the book is not about 'star signs' but packed full of esoteric wisdom.

Can't help with the time on the clock but on page 308 -314 she talks about the esoteric significance of The Great Seal reproduced on the one dollar bill - and the numerological significance. You'll need to get the book or it'll mean me typing for 2 hours but the number 13 is significant and she talks about the reason why the pyramid is unfinished, the meaning of the latin inscriptions etc etc

Also back to the original question on the correct birthtime of the USA she says that the time was chosen to make it Sun Cancer and Aquarius Moon but also says.. and I quote " Another secret code in addition to 'adaptability to change' is behind the selection of a Gemini Ascendant for America's birthchart. Gemini is a dual or double sign meant to signify the day when Americans shall have spiralled into the illumination of realizing that matter and energy are inseperable polarities of the same reality (Two are one)."
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  #57  
Unread 04-07-2006, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Futurist
Hi Guys,

Been absent for a week trying to locate cause of major glitch in my computer (Mercury RX !) causing it to crash every 5 mins but back now and just caught up on this great thread. Theo you write some interesting stuff -it's going in a really interesting direction

Just wanted to say that Linda Goodman, who I am sure most of us only equate with her books 'Sun Signs' and 'Love Signs' also wrote a fascinating book called Star signs. She chose a bad title for actually the book is not about 'star signs' but packed full of esoteric wisdom.

Can't help with the time on the clock but on page 308 -314 she talks about the esoteric significance of The Great Seal reproduced on the one dollar bill - and the numerological significance. You'll need to get the book or it'll mean me typing for 2 hours but the number 13 is significant and she talks about the reason why the pyramid is unfinished, the meaning of the latin inscriptions etc etc

Also back to the original question on the correct birthtime of the USA she says that the time was chosen to make it Sun Cancer and Aquarius Moon but also says.. and I quote " Another secret code in addition to 'adaptability to change' is behind the selection of a Gemini Ascendant for America's birthchart. Gemini is a dual or double sign meant to signify the day when Americans shall have spiralled into the illumination of realizing that matter and energy are inseperable polarities of the same reality (Two are one)."
Thanks. What many are now finding out about the astrological and spiritual truths of the past is coming to light. I expected this long ago when I tracked the motion of Uranus through tropical Pisces (2003 - 2010) in the late 1980s. Now many things that run counter to conventional "wisdom" and "understanding" is becoming clear in the light of day.

Take for example the revealations of the past, where Jesus Christ himself elaborates on classical astrology, and its use, and creation by God to regulate our world. The coming of the expressions of the "Da Vinci Code" -albliet a fictionalized account mixed with historical facts.

But also now the revelations of The Gospel of Judas Iscariot - among many Coptic texts that clearly show truths not accepted by modern religion. Expect major news to emerge at the end of April, and in May from National Geographic Magazine which will publish this gospel to the general public.

Many other texts not included in the coventional Bible such as the The Book of Thomas the Contender, and texts written by Mary Magdelane, as well as the other aspostles who personally knew Jesus Christ - show just how astrologically-minded Christ, and those who followed him were in the First Century A.D.

The current transit of Uranus in tropical Pisces presages historical change that comes from the discoveries of such ancient texts that run exactly opposite to "accepted belief." This is Uranus in action, and as the transit through tropical Pisces continues we can expect to hear more amazing discoveries from the recent past come to light through the mutable action of Pisces.

These true histories directly link astrology to God, and through the centuries have played a leading and powerful role in shaping human history and the rise of the United States with the Founding Fathers and their use of astrology to give birth to a new nation.
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  #58  
Unread 05-16-2006, 07:28 PM
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Hi

I'm not saying this information will end this debate once and for all but I have certainly stumbled across something.........

I live in Windsor, UK and last week whilst mooching around near Eton College I went into a second hand bookshop - not a charity shop but one of those real old fashioned establishments where the musty smell of the books is overpowering and you have to stoop to avoid hitting the roof. I was just about to ask the old guy running it if he had an esoteric section when I literally tripped over a pile of books with a big hand-drawn sign resting on the top saying 'Astrology'. Well, I thought I had died and gone to heaven when the pile included these original copy books, all in good condition; The Radix System and Electional Astrology by Robson. The Manual of Astrology, How to make and read your own horoscope by Sepharial, The Foundations Of Astrology and Some Principles of Horoscopic Delineation by CEO Carter, Commonsense Astrology by Louis De Wohl, Astrology and It's Practical Application translated from dutch by E. Parker and two tiny books by Alan Leo- one on Horary the other a book of chart data.

In the Alan Leo book printed in 1917, 1001 Notable Nativities, there's some fascinating data, not least the entry for the signing of the US Declaration. Leo notes: "it was adopted by the Contintental Congress at Philadelphia at 0.10 noon (some authorities give 10 mins later)". His reference for this is Modern Astrology, Vol 1,Old series and The Sphinx, an American monthly edited by Catherine H Thompson vols i and ii 1899 to June 1900 then he says " the declaration was signed 3.4am 4.7.1776 (4th July) congress sat all night debating" and attributes this to Zadkiels The Future, Feb - Dec 1892 Finally he writes..
"Secession of southern States; voting of Resolution of Secession completed 1.15pm 20.12 1860 Columbia, South Carolina" he atrributes this to the same source but Jan - Dec edition 1893.

I don't really want to stir up the whole debate on the correct timing of the chart again but I thought what I had 'tripped across' should be circulated.

If Zadkiel printed 3.4am in 1892 he must have got his data from somewhere and it pre-dates many of the other theories which have arisen over the years.

x
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  #59  
Unread 05-17-2006, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Futurist
Hi

I'm not saying this information will end this debate once and for all but I have certainly stumbled across something.........

I live in Windsor, UK and last week whilst mooching around near Eton College I went into a second hand bookshop - not a charity shop but one of those real old fashioned establishments where the musty smell of the books is overpowering and you have to stoop to avoid hitting the roof. I was just about to ask the old guy running it if he had an esoteric section when I literally tripped over a pile of books with a big hand-drawn sign resting on the top saying 'Astrology'. Well, I thought I had died and gone to heaven when the pile included these original copy books, all in good condition; The Radix System and Electional Astrology by Robson. The Manual of Astrology, How to make and read your own horoscope by Sepharial, The Foundations Of Astrology and Some Principles of Horoscopic Delineation by CEO Carter, Commonsense Astrology by Louis De Wohl, Astrology and It's Practical Application translated from dutch by E. Parker and two tiny books by Alan Leo- one on Horary the other a book of chart data.

In the Alan Leo book printed in 1917, 1001 Notable Nativities, there's some fascinating data, not least the entry for the signing of the US Declaration. Leo notes: "it was adopted by the Contintental Congress at Philadelphia at 0.10 noon (some authorities give 10 mins later)". His reference for this is Modern Astrology, Vol 1,Old series and The Sphinx, an American monthly edited by Catherine H Thompson vols i and ii 1899 to June 1900 then he says " the declaration was signed 3.4am 4.7.1776 (4th July) congress sat all night debating" and attributes this to Zadkiels The Future, Feb - Dec 1892 Finally he writes..
"Secession of southern States; voting of Resolution of Secession completed 1.15pm 20.12 1860 Columbia, South Carolina" he atrributes this to the same source but Jan - Dec edition 1893.

I don't really want to stir up the whole debate on the correct timing of the chart again but I thought what I had 'tripped across' should be circulated.

If Zadkiel printed 3.4am in 1892 he must have got his data from somewhere and it pre-dates many of the other theories which have arisen over the years.
x
Yes, that is good data on the USA chart. However, I continue to state that the "time" is less important than the "date." Franklin was more concerned with the position of the Moon in Capricorn, and its position, as well as the position of the fixed star SIRIUS to the Sun & Jupiter. Waiting for two days until 4 July cleared up the Moon's position from tropical Capricorn to Aquarius, and they settled for that.

Sunrise charts for the date are most accurate. Too many people have misconceptions about "exact time" when casting charts with dubious times, and miss the point of the big picture - planets and stars relative to the Earth at the time of any electional situation - such as signing important documents like the Declaration of Independence.

Franklin, Jefferson, etc., were also night people, and as an astrologer, Franklin did much of his work at night. Franklin was well known for being a nightowl. When the Founding Fathers were dealing with all these major decisions, they often worked at night because the summer days of Philadelphia were oppressively hot. By the time they met in the early mornings, most of their work was hammered out and they wanted things to be done by noon. They had already debated and talked when the temperatures were cooler at night. So, by the daytime, they were ready to sign, and get out of the heat.

A good book astrological election charts, astrology and the Founding Fathers, is David Ovason's book - "The Secret Architecture of Our Nation's Capital. A good read.
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  #60  
Unread 05-22-2006, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
- not a charity shop but one of those real old fashioned establishments where the musty smell of the books is overpowering and you have to stoop to avoid hitting the roof.
I am pea-green with jealousy!




http://www.ericfrancis.com/issues/0307/full-moon.html is an interesting short article by Susan Madrak.
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  #61  
Unread 05-23-2006, 04:33 AM
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A vote for the Sibly Chart

I have not yet introduced myself but may get around to that sometime in the future. In the meantime.........

Here is perhaps another reason to consider the Sibley chart. This is
a paste of my comments posted on AstroDataBank.com.

The following positions are the right ascensions of the Sibley and
Moonlanding (First step on the Moon) charts. I am giving them in
degrees and minutes instead of hh:mm:ss as I believe the degree and minute form will be more easily understood by many members. The use of this form is meant only as as a courtesy.

All aspects are less than 1 degree from being exact!
ML is my shorthand for Moonlanding.

Sibley Midheaven...........180 degrees 58 minutes

Moonlanding Uranus.........180 degrees 55 minutes
Moonlanding Jupiter........181 degrees 12 minutes
Moonlanding Pluto..........179 degrees 50 minutes
Midpoint of ML Jup\PLu.....180 degrees 31 minutes
Midpoint of ML Sun\Mars....180 degrees 09 minutes

Trine to Sibley Pluto is...180 degrees 18 minutes

Sibley Pluto is 300 degrees 18 minutes

ML Sun is 120 degrees 16 minutes, the exact opposition of Sibley
Pluto is 120 degrees 18 minutes.

ML Sun\Jup.............150 degrees 44 minutes
ML Sun\Ura.............150 degrees 36 minutes
ML Sun\Plu.............150 degrees 03 minutes

Opp to Sibley Moon.....150 degrees 02 minutes

Sibley Moon is 330 degrees 02 minutes

Not bad having natal Pluto trine your Midheaven, then having
transiting Jupiter, Uranus, and Pluto conjunct your Midheaven and
trine your Pluto while transiting Sun sextiles that Midheaven and
opposses your Pluto while at the same time the midpoints of
transiting Sun\Jupiter, Sun\Uranus, and Sun\Pluto oppose your natal
Moon at the moment the first person in our known history sets foot
on another body in our solar system. And every one of the aspects
are less than 1 degree from exactness! Yeah, I vote for Sibley.

Bob
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  #62  
Unread 09-30-2006, 05:35 PM
Futurist Futurist is offline
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Re: USA charts - the ultimate debate

Didn't think I would be returning to this debate/thread again but through some incredible synchronicity it seems that unbeknownst to each other, Radu and I have been getting into declinations again over the last few months- it's that semi permeable membrane we call the Universal consciousness or Universal mind linking us again isn't it Radu ;-) I just noticed the great new declination tool too.

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that if you look at the declinations for the USA Chart (take any time) it looks like this is what the Founding Father were really concentrating on.

Although Uranus (independence) enters the mix, they obviously only knew of 7 planets at that juncture and lo and behold, The Sun, Venus, Mars and Jupiter are all in parallel declination to an extraordinarily tight degree. At 03.04 (which is the time that I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread), the Moon and Mercury become contra parallel. They stay this way for a few hours moving farther apart by 7am onwards.

I can't see the advantage to a contra parallel so this could be a bark up the wrong tree. Contra parallels act as strong oppositions. However if they were more concerned with symmetry and used declinations in combination with longitudinal positions, for reasons that have got lost in the annals of time, this could be interesting.

Alternatively as Venus and Mars are forming an exact parallel we could move the timing until they are exact to the second. They could have wanting to place special significance on the Venus Mars parallel as it brings them to the equivalent of a conjunction on a day when Sun and Jupiter are still in wide longitudinal conjunction.

Has anyone read anything on the significance of the declinations in the 4 July 1776 chart anywhere (Theo?) If so I'd love a link or reference.

Thx
K

Last edited by Futurist; 09-30-2006 at 05:37 PM.
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  #63  
Unread 10-01-2006, 12:14 AM
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Re: USA charts - the ultimate debate

Hopefully, I entered this data into the Declinations Calculator correctly...

Sun
Declination: 22N51
Equivalent longitudes: 17Gem33 and 12Can26
________________________________________
Moon
Declination: 16S25
Equivalent longitudes: 15Sco19 and 14Aqu40
________________________________________
Mercury
Declination: 17N34
Equivalent longitudes: 19Tau22 and 10Leo37
________________________________________
Venus
Declination out of bounds!
Declination: 23N31
Codeclination: 23N22
Equivalent longitudes: 26Gem20 and 03Can39
________________________________________
Mars
Declination out of bounds!
Declination: 23N31
Codeclination: 23N22
Equivalent longitudes: 26Gem07 and 03Can52
________________________________________
Jupiter
Declination: 23N16
Equivalent longitudes: 23Gem15 and 06Can44
________________________________________
Saturn
Declination: 03S30
Equivalent longitudes: 08Lib51 and 21Pis08
________________________________________
Uranus
Declination: 21N44
Equivalent longitudes: 08Gem33 and 21Can26
________________________________________
Neptune
Declination: 04N09
Equivalent longitudes: 10Ari31 and 19Vir28
________________________________________
Pluto
Declination out of bounds!
Declination: 23S43
Codeclination: 23S10
Equivalent longitudes: 21Sag50 and 08Cap09

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  #64  
Unread 10-31-2007, 11:14 PM
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Re: USA charts - the ultimate debate



This is a 40x image of the back of a 100 dollar bill. As you can see, the image is a daylight image. The time on the clock is clearly 2:22 pm, which gives a Scorpio rising to the USA.

The best discussion I have seen on the topic is at this link...

http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/USA.htm

I won't reproduce any of the arguments here, if you are interested in the alternative I believe is correct, you can click the link.

I will say in passing the the Sibley chart has corresponded to the transits better because it is only one house in error...and still posesses quite an 8th house stellium...which becomes even more pronounced with Scorpio as the Ascendant. The big difference is that the Scorpio ASC chart moves Mars into the 8th house, which describes US foreign policy much better. Also, remember that transits have an orb of influence, just like any other aspect, and do not have to be exact before the effects are felt.

I also might add that all US currency is loaded with Masonic symbolism, clues to the mystery we call America.
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  #65  
Unread 12-27-2007, 05:07 PM
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Re: USA charts - the ultimate debate

The first time the USA chart was presented to me it was with the Gemini Rising. I found this interesting because I have a Sun in Cancer with a Gemini Rising. So as time has progressed and my more recent astrology group countered this perspective by bringing out the possibility of the Sag Rising, I was intrigued. In observing America in more recent times and from a very subjective view (see my chart) I have to say that everything that is occuring in our country now has become very personal to me; it offends and upsets me beyond reason. I see the trends and often sense clearly where we are headed (or what's next) and understand the dysfunctions of the collective with more clarity than I would like. George Bush is especially upsetting to me - also a Cancer - and so I have worked for several years toward impeachment in an almost full-time capacity. I vote for the Gemini Rising - my intuitive sense tells me I couldn't take this all so personally if the country's Sun wasn't right on top of much of my own Cancer energy, and I wasn't so intimate with the nature of the Gemini Ascending, gone awry.
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Last edited by emilyelizabeth; 12-27-2007 at 05:10 PM.
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  #66  
Unread 02-18-2008, 01:26 PM
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Re: USA charts - the ultimate debate

The current US "president" will leave office on January 20, 2009 – note the year - although these federal criminals are searching for another way to attack the population and create a police state. GW Bush is not the US president, he is a dictator, as he stole this office, twice, and has imbedded laws similar to those of Hitler's and has destroyed our US Consitution and democracy. One of his tricks is the Military Commissions Act. Look it up. The Patriot Act is also a work similar to the Stasi in Germany not too long ago. They are spying on Americans like me, who live every day to fight them and expose their lies. This has been a coup of the US government, and including Congress. Many "Democrats" in office switched parties before the Nov 2006 election from the Republican party to run Democratic to solidify the coup, successfully. They are called "Blue Dog Democrats." These people, we call neoconservatives, are actually fascists, connected by the Bush family to the Hitler regime. Look up Prescott Bush. Their goal is to rob the huge coffer of the American taxpayers to support their corporate “interests,” and they have been hugely successful due to the fact that they have people in every faction of government and including the media. They have been planning this coup since our liberal American moment in the 60s and 70s. Lies and propaganda have been the means. Sept 11, WAS an inside job. The sign of Virgo is supportive for the many details and work required to successfully pull off this takeover. The evidence is unavoidable and slowly coming out. The chart for this event is attached. Note that the Sun at this day and hour, 8:46 am, Sept 11, 2001 was near the end of the 11th house, placing it in the 12th house, the culminating event for the coup. This Sun is the US government - hidden and connected by square to Pluto, Saturn and Chiron (and placed clearly in the 12th by the whole house system which is the system that is emerging as the purest form of astrology and the most reliable - which is Hellenistic) with many more supporting aspects. See the attached chart (below) for the planetary relationships, although it is not a whole house chart (from Astrodienst). You will want to redo the horary chart on the inauguration date as well to place it in the correct year. The majority of America despise the Bush cabal and want them tried as war criminals and jailed – we are not giving up on impeachment, however, impeachment isn't good enough for them. Are espousing your ignorance by basing your judgments on one young American who drank too much in your presence? Alcohol abuse and nicotine addictions are global problems, as well as the ignorance of youth. (BTW your addiction to cigarettes is telling.) We, as American citizens, have shared information with one another by internet to understand what has happened to our government, as the media, the 4th arm of government, now controlled by just 5 media conglomerates in the US, have also been taken by these corporate fascists. It is like living behind the iron curtain. We are all also on the edge of poverty and education and real information is disappearing as well as the absence of healthcare creating huge problems in our population. There will be a Revolution - soon. The youth are angry and are now paying attention. Yes, Americans do things in a big way. It will be a Revolution that is noteworthy.

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  #67  
Unread 02-18-2008, 08:13 PM
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Re: USA charts - the ultimate debate

You've made a number of pointless assumptions - it's okay to seek real information.


Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee
You're not the only one to think it was an inside job...but come on!
Next you'll be saying they didnt land on the Moon.
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  #68  
Unread 05-26-2008, 11:56 PM
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Re: USA charts - the ultimate debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radu
Great! Thanks for the info. Which time do you use for the July 4 chart?
In which way do you consider differently the July 4 chart and the US constitution charts?


Do you think that current "Fathers" of US politics use astrology in their activity? (not referring to Reagan, who is famous for this)
Yes. I think they use a lot more than astrology. Consider the paranormal research at Stanford Research Institute where they train remote viewing. I think they're into all kinds of occult stuff.
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  #69  
Unread 05-27-2008, 12:25 AM
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Re: USA charts - the ultimate debate

I haven't read the whole thread, but I also use the chart for the Articles of Confederation. With Sun in Scorpio, and Saturn/Merc conjunction in Scorpio in the 8th house... it shows the dark side of the U.S.... mafia... political corruption.


USA Articles of Confederation
11/15/1777; 5:53 pm GMT
York, PA





btw, I'm a USA Sag rising (yikes!)

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  #70  
Unread 06-26-2008, 04:19 PM
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Re: USA charts - the ultimate debate

Any more thoughts on the USA natal chart since this writing? We were waiting for some time to pass...

Developments worthy of note?
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  #71  
Unread 08-06-2008, 02:56 AM
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Re: USA charts - the ultimate debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by emilyelizabeth
Any more thoughts on the USA natal chart since this writing? We were waiting for some time to pass...

Developments worthy of note?
I reject the 1776 date. The two primary reasons are that:

1) If astrology is a science, then it must act like a science and be consistent in its application. If we create new natal charts for countries like Iran, Russia, Romania, China etc, because they have new constitutions, then we must be consistent and create a new natal chart for the US when it changes constitutions; and

2) setting aside ethnocentricity and romantic fantasy, it's historically inaccurate. The Declaration of Independence did nothing more than create 13 separate countries, and it repeatedly says so.

The biggest problem seems to be confusing the phrase "United States" which NEVER appears in the Declaration of Independence with the phrase "united States" which appears a couple of times.

The colonies were united only in their desire to be independent of Britain. They had no desire to be unified. Later, when they did unifiy, it was solely for the purposes of self-defence and the maintenance of diplomatic relations with other countries. Each state continued to print its own currency and run its own affairs independently.

In looking for a "better" natal chart for the US, I've researched a number of legitimate dates and times through 1791, and oddly, nearly all have produced a chart with Sagittarius rising.

I'm convinced that Sagittarius is the correct rising sign and history proves it quite well.

For example, with Virgo on the MC and Libra on the 11th House cusp, we find the early US on friendly terms with native Americans, purchasing land rather than taking it by force, or entering into treaties with native Americans which the US does not violate. We also find the "peace at any price" Libra government paying huge bribes to Britain and France not to harass US commerical or naval vessels, and the US pays an annual tribute to the Barabary Coast States of $Millions (in 1790 US Dollars not adjusted US Dollars) for nearly a decade to not attack US merchant ships in the Mediterranean.

Then suddenly things change. The US stops paying bribes to Britain and France and ends up at war with Britain, and stops paying the annual tribute to the Barbary Coast States, sending the marines to invade those countries (that's the "...shores of Tripoli..." part of the Marine Hymn). The attitude toward native Americans has changed, too, and the US is more violent, willing to use force to drive native Americans off of land rather than purchasing it or negotiating treaties for its use.

In a Sagittarius rising chart, that's easily explained by a progressed or directed Ascendant and changing house cusps, as well as the progression of planets.

The outer planet transits also match a Sagittarius rising chart beautifully. Uranus in the 4th House when the US experiences bizarre weather phenomenon that destroys crops and causes strife can be seen in the 1930s, again in the 1840s, and progressing the chart prior to birth, in the 1760s, the 1680s and even the 1590s.

The transit of Pluto fits exceptionally well, not only with respect to the Great Depression and other significant events, but also for delienating generations of Americans. Between the "Baby Boomers" and the "Me Generation," the "Tweeners" are clearly seen as Neptune changes houses.

I've had to reject numerous charts, but I'm having great success with the current chart I'm using. It's based on the passage of a law creating the Constitutional Convention at "just before day's end" on June 19, 1786 at Federal Hall in New York City. "Day's end" for the Congress of the Articles of Confederation while in session was 6:00 pm (although sometimes heated debates lasted much later). The rectified birth time best fits 5:54 pm.

Chart is marked by a Kite configuration with a Grand Trine between Neptune, Pluto and Mercury, with Mars in the 8th House opposing Pluto and sextiling Mercury and Neptune. The other outstanding feature is Sun in the 7th House square Midheaven (all orbs about 1 degree). Another interesting aspect is Saturn conjunct Pluto in the 2nd House (orb about 2 degrees).

I've worked quite a bit on US natal charts because I have a tremendous curiousity for the future and finding the correct birth time is probably the Holy Grail of mundane astrology.
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  #72  
Unread 08-06-2008, 03:53 AM
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Re: USA charts - the ultimate debate

Hi Bob,

I've seen the chart. It's a powerful chart and some things stand out quite a lot to me. I like it.

But, I am not expert on American History. Please can you explain the date a little more in the context of the formation of a powerful Nation, Unified, sovereign, and basically a unified force. Can you contextualise that precise day?
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  #73  
Unread 08-06-2008, 07:06 AM
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Re: USA charts - the ultimate debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Night Sky
Hi Bob,

I've seen the chart. It's a powerful chart and some things stand out quite a lot to me. I like it.

But, I am not expert on American History. Please can you explain the date a little more in the context of the formation of a powerful Nation, Unified, sovereign, and basically a unified force. Can you contextualise that precise day?
Not really, except to say that debate had taken place over several days regarding inherent weaknesses in the Articles and the need to make changes. Some ideas were kicked around, including primitive drafts of proposed changes to the Articles. The idea of a constitutional convention was proposed, but they held off setting a date for the convention until discussing it with the state legislatures (as their support would be needed). A date was set for the convention several months later, it was held, and everyone knows (most) of the rest of the story.

The founding of a nation is something that we as astrologers have to work out, and it will be quite subjective to some extent. I mean how you know when a national consciouness arises? Does it even matter? If we base it on documents (charters, declarations or constitutions), oftentimes that's nothing more than a formalization of something that already exists (think of two people living together for 10 years who then get married or two entities who conduct business on a verbal contract for a time then prepare a written contract). I think we can develop a much better standard that's more universal (scientific) than the one that exists now. Campion makes some valid points, and I try to faithfully follow his logic.

I don't necessarily reject all charts, I just think they're improperly applied, like the Constitution Chart. If it's rectified correctly, it should show the passage of every amendment to the Constitution, including those that failed (like the ERA), significant legal challenges to the Constitution (ie Mapp v Ohio, Escobedo v Arizona and Miranda v Arizona et al regarding search and seizure - 4th Amendment), and restrictions or expansions of constitutional rights, but it wouldn't tell you much about the US, or its people or government.
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  #74  
Unread 09-01-2008, 01:31 PM
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Re: USA charts - the ultimate debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco
I reject the 1776 date. The two primary reasons are that:

1) If astrology is a science, then it must act like a science and be consistent in its application. If we create new natal charts for countries like Iran, Russia, Romania, China etc, because they have new constitutions, then we must be consistent and create a new natal chart for the US when it changes constitutions; and

2) setting aside ethnocentricity and romantic fantasy, it's historically inaccurate. The Declaration of Independence did nothing more than create 13 separate countries, and it repeatedly says so.

The biggest problem seems to be confusing the phrase "United States" which NEVER appears in the Declaration of Independence with the phrase "united States" which appears a couple of times.

The colonies were united only in their desire to be independent of Britain. They had no desire to be unified. Later, when they did unifiy, it was solely for the purposes of self-defence and the maintenance of diplomatic relations with other countries. Each state continued to print its own currency and run its own affairs independently.

In looking for a "better" natal chart for the US, I've researched a number of legitimate dates and times through 1791, and oddly, nearly all have produced a chart with Sagittarius rising.

I'm convinced that Sagittarius is the correct rising sign and history proves it quite well.

For example, with Virgo on the MC and Libra on the 11th House cusp, we find the early US on friendly terms with native Americans, purchasing land rather than taking it by force, or entering into treaties with native Americans which the US does not violate. We also find the "peace at any price" Libra government paying huge bribes to Britain and France not to harass US commerical or naval vessels, and the US pays an annual tribute to the Barabary Coast States of $Millions (in 1790 US Dollars not adjusted US Dollars) for nearly a decade to not attack US merchant ships in the Mediterranean.

Then suddenly things change. The US stops paying bribes to Britain and France and ends up at war with Britain, and stops paying the annual tribute to the Barbary Coast States, sending the marines to invade those countries (that's the "...shores of Tripoli..." part of the Marine Hymn). The attitude toward native Americans has changed, too, and the US is more violent, willing to use force to drive native Americans off of land rather than purchasing it or negotiating treaties for its use.

In a Sagittarius rising chart, that's easily explained by a progressed or directed Ascendant and changing house cusps, as well as the progression of planets.

The outer planet transits also match a Sagittarius rising chart beautifully. Uranus in the 4th House when the US experiences bizarre weather phenomenon that destroys crops and causes strife can be seen in the 1930s, again in the 1840s, and progressing the chart prior to birth, in the 1760s, the 1680s and even the 1590s.

The transit of Pluto fits exceptionally well, not only with respect to the Great Depression and other significant events, but also for delienating generations of Americans. Between the "Baby Boomers" and the "Me Generation," the "Tweeners" are clearly seen as Neptune changes houses.

I've had to reject numerous charts, but I'm having great success with the current chart I'm using. It's based on the passage of a law creating the Constitutional Convention at "just before day's end" on June 19, 1786 at Federal Hall in New York City. "Day's end" for the Congress of the Articles of Confederation while in session was 6:00 pm (although sometimes heated debates lasted much later). The rectified birth time best fits 5:54 pm.

Chart is marked by a Kite configuration with a Grand Trine between Neptune, Pluto and Mercury, with Mars in the 8th House opposing Pluto and sextiling Mercury and Neptune. The other outstanding feature is Sun in the 7th House square Midheaven (all orbs about 1 degree). Another interesting aspect is Saturn conjunct Pluto in the 2nd House (orb about 2 degrees).

I've worked quite a bit on US natal charts because I have a tremendous curiousity for the future and finding the correct birth time is probably the Holy Grail of mundane astrology.
I think what you may have missed concerning the U.S. natal chart Bob is the fact that one of the Founders, Benjamin Franklin, was an astrologer himself, and purposely talked Thomas Jefferson into waiting until July 4, 1776, (rather than July 2nd) to have the Declaration signed. He did this because he wanted the transiting Moon to leave Capricorn, and enter Aquarius.

As a native Philadelphian, I've known this since childhood, and it is well-known in Philadelphia that Franklin orchestrated the signing to coincide with the Moon's ingress into tropical Aquarius.

Also, the founders of the country did indeed have a "new nation" in mind when they signed the declaration. By doing so, they knew it meant war with England, which did not want the colonies "united." I should know ~ I was born and raised in the city that gave birth to the United States.

Moreover, with the U.S., one can use several mundane charts to reflect the nation. No just one. One can also apply the September 1787 ratification of the U.S. Constitution as one very useful chart to use for forecasting. Nations can have several mundane charts for events that give birth to their country. There isn't a law that says only one chart can be used, nor, in Mundane Astrology is it required to have an "exact" time, as a sunrise chart for the day in question is quite enough.
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Unread 09-01-2008, 01:32 PM
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Re: USA charts - the ultimate debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco
I reject the 1776 date. The two primary reasons are that:

1) If astrology is a science, then it must act like a science and be consistent in its application. If we create new natal charts for countries like Iran, Russia, Romania, China etc, because they have new constitutions, then we must be consistent and create a new natal chart for the US when it changes constitutions; and

2) setting aside ethnocentricity and romantic fantasy, it's historically inaccurate. The Declaration of Independence did nothing more than create 13 separate countries, and it repeatedly says so.

The biggest problem seems to be confusing the phrase "United States" which NEVER appears in the Declaration of Independence with the phrase "united States" which appears a couple of times.

The colonies were united only in their desire to be independent of Britain. They had no desire to be unified. Later, when they did unifiy, it was solely for the purposes of self-defence and the maintenance of diplomatic relations with other countries. Each state continued to print its own currency and run its own affairs independently.

In looking for a "better" natal chart for the US, I've researched a number of legitimate dates and times through 1791, and oddly, nearly all have produced a chart with Sagittarius rising.

I'm convinced that Sagittarius is the correct rising sign and history proves it quite well.

For example, with Virgo on the MC and Libra on the 11th House cusp, we find the early US on friendly terms with native Americans, purchasing land rather than taking it by force, or entering into treaties with native Americans which the US does not violate. We also find the "peace at any price" Libra government paying huge bribes to Britain and France not to harass US commerical or naval vessels, and the US pays an annual tribute to the Barabary Coast States of $Millions (in 1790 US Dollars not adjusted US Dollars) for nearly a decade to not attack US merchant ships in the Mediterranean.

Then suddenly things change. The US stops paying bribes to Britain and France and ends up at war with Britain, and stops paying the annual tribute to the Barbary Coast States, sending the marines to invade those countries (that's the "...shores of Tripoli..." part of the Marine Hymn). The attitude toward native Americans has changed, too, and the US is more violent, willing to use force to drive native Americans off of land rather than purchasing it or negotiating treaties for its use.

In a Sagittarius rising chart, that's easily explained by a progressed or directed Ascendant and changing house cusps, as well as the progression of planets.

The outer planet transits also match a Sagittarius rising chart beautifully. Uranus in the 4th House when the US experiences bizarre weather phenomenon that destroys crops and causes strife can be seen in the 1930s, again in the 1840s, and progressing the chart prior to birth, in the 1760s, the 1680s and even the 1590s.

The transit of Pluto fits exceptionally well, not only with respect to the Great Depression and other significant events, but also for delienating generations of Americans. Between the "Baby Boomers" and the "Me Generation," the "Tweeners" are clearly seen as Neptune changes houses.

I've had to reject numerous charts, but I'm having great success with the current chart I'm using. It's based on the passage of a law creating the Constitutional Convention at "just before day's end" on June 19, 1786 at Federal Hall in New York City. "Day's end" for the Congress of the Articles of Confederation while in session was 6:00 pm (although sometimes heated debates lasted much later). The rectified birth time best fits 5:54 pm.

Chart is marked by a Kite configuration with a Grand Trine between Neptune, Pluto and Mercury, with Mars in the 8th House opposing Pluto and sextiling Mercury and Neptune. The other outstanding feature is Sun in the 7th House square Midheaven (all orbs about 1 degree). Another interesting aspect is Saturn conjunct Pluto in the 2nd House (orb about 2 degrees).

I've worked quite a bit on US natal charts because I have a tremendous curiousity for the future and finding the correct birth time is probably the Holy Grail of mundane astrology.
I think what you may have missed concerning the U.S. natal chart Bob is the fact that one of the Founders, Benjamin Franklin, was an astrologer himself, and purposely talked Thomas Jefferson into waiting until July 4, 1776, (rather than July 2nd) to have the Declaration signed. He did this because he wanted the transiting Moon to leave Capricorn, and enter Aquarius.

As a native Philadelphian, I've known this since childhood, and it is well-known in Philadelphia that Franklin orchestrated the signing to coincide with the Moon's ingress into tropical Aquarius.

Also, the founders of the country did indeed have a "new nation" in mind when they signed the declaration. By doing so, they knew it meant war with England, which did not want the colonies "united." I should know ~ I was born and raised in the city that gave birth to the United States.

Moreover, with the U.S., one can use several mundane charts to reflect the nation. No just one. One can also apply the September 1787 ratification of the U.S. Constitution as one very useful chart to use for forecasting. Nations can have several mundane charts for events that give birth to their country. There isn't a law that says only one chart can be used, nor, in Mundane Astrology is it required to have an "exact" time, as a sunrise chart for the day in question is quite enough.
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