Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Natal Astrology

Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Unread 09-05-2015, 05:43 PM
Dirius's Avatar
Dirius Dirius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,565
Re: What is chart rectification?

I think many posters are not understanding the purpose of the topic, because it is derived from another topic:

- The topic does not question chart rectification.

- The topic questions 24 hour rectification. As in not knowing any type of birth data rather than the birthday.

Quote:
I say this because of posts like this:

Chart rectification worked for me. I knew that my birthtime wasn't correct by my 2nd or 3rd astrological lesson. Mothers memory of my birthtime was an hour and 5 minutes out, and one simple m/c mercury conjunction in my "wrong natal chart" made the wrong birthtime very obvious. I had to get my birthtime from hospital records to get a chart that actually fitted my internal self, and then I proceeded to test the new birthtime with secondary progressions, it fits well, I actually made a thread about it here
No one questions this. We question 24 hour charts with no birth time at all.

__________________
If you'd like a private Horary or Natal consultation, please visit me at:

https://antiqueastrology.wordpress.com/

You'll also find some tips for horary practice!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dirius For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (09-05-2015)
  #27  
Unread 09-07-2015, 06:21 AM
muchacho muchacho is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,732
Re: What is chart rectification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
I think many posters are not understanding the purpose of the topic, because it is derived from another topic:

- The topic does not question chart rectification.

- The topic questions 24 hour rectification. As in not knowing any type of birth data rather than the birthday.

No one questions this. We question 24 hour charts with no birth time at all.
I thought the consensus so far is that 24 hour chart rectification is possible if we know a little about the persons life and character? Do you suggest that this isn't possible either? Maybe you are using the wrong method?
__________________


Last edited by muchacho; 09-07-2015 at 06:24 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Unread 09-07-2015, 09:59 AM
Dirius's Avatar
Dirius Dirius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,565
Re: What is chart rectification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
I thought the consensus so far is that 24 hour chart rectification is possible if we know a little about the persons life and character? Do you suggest that this isn't possible either? Maybe you are using the wrong method?
Yes a lot of people seem to agree that it is possible.

Yet that "lot of people", have not posted proof, evidence, a method, or a chart.

Most examples that were given by everyone, have been about charts with a time frame, or posted other authors that also agree with them, but don't provide a 24 hour rectification either.

Saying that something "can be done", without actually proving it, doesn't mean much.
__________________
If you'd like a private Horary or Natal consultation, please visit me at:

https://antiqueastrology.wordpress.com/

You'll also find some tips for horary practice!

Last edited by Dirius; 09-07-2015 at 10:02 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dirius For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (09-07-2015)
  #29  
Unread 09-07-2015, 03:54 PM
muchacho muchacho is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,732
Re: What is chart rectification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Yes a lot of people seem to agree that it is possible.

Yet that "lot of people", have not posted proof, evidence, a method, or a chart.

Most examples that were given by everyone, have been about charts with a time frame, or posted other authors that also agree with them, but don't provide a 24 hour rectification either.

Saying that something "can be done", without actually proving it, doesn't mean much.
If we are just talking about finding the correct rising sign, then that isn't such a big deal if you've got enough personal details. Getting the exact degree of the ASC is another story though.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #30  
Unread 09-07-2015, 04:20 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,446
Re: What is chart rectification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

If we are just talking about finding the correct rising sign,
then that isn't such a big deal
if you've got enough personal details.
Getting the exact degree of the ASC is another story though.
we're discussing '24 hour rectification'
of complete strangers unknown to the astrologer
with no time of birth
and whose fame simply brings them to the astrologers attention
i.e.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kannon View Post

Sometimes there is no help at all for time info.

This is when we go purely astrological.
This is an even greater test of the astrologer's astrological literacy and fluency of both planets and signs.....

.....I don't know what unique_astrology considers in arriving at a 'speculative' chart, as with Fogle.
He seems to enjoy the more technical parts
and I'd like to see him explain more fully his approach
regarding what points him to a particular Asc sign/degree.
(I'm thinking in tropical zodiac terms here)......

You need more than mere life events

to do 24-hour rectifications,
or any rectification for that matter.
I always need life events, but those alone amount to almost nothing
without a well-focused, solid picture of the person as a human being.
There can be clues in what a person says they've been going through,
and members of this forum can see where I have speculated in such a manner here.
But that does not amount to a final rectification in any way.....
specifically, we are discussing the case of Jared Fogle, arrested on child pornography charges
No official time of birth is given for Fogle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kannon View Post

24-hour rectifications must be done at times
because there are people who want an accurate birth charts
who have no time clues whatsoever
.
These are folks that want to know their correct rising sign, house layout, etc.
Call them "speculative" if you want,
but there is a difference between speculative charts for public figures the astrologer doesn't even know,
and well-informed 24-hour rectification work in which the astrologer has direct contact with the person in question......
We're discussing whether 'well-informed 24-hour rectification'
with no time of birth
could be feasible
when the astrologer is in direct contact with the person in question
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Unread 09-07-2015, 10:17 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,283
Re: What is chart rectification?

Tim Wilson split off this thread from a previous one, so it doesn't specifically refer to any previous thread.

Dirius, I think what you're saying is that it's hard to get your head around 24-hour chart rectification. And that's fine. But that doesn't mean nobody else can do it with good results. http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewto...light=animodar I hope you weren't side-tracked by my Munkasey quote, which I cited to indicate a general principle

Certainly we have to recognize that more than one horoscopic placement can simulate the same manifestation. Perhaps Taurus isn't rising, but the native has Venus in the first house, for example. So trying to determine the rising sign by the native's appearance alone may not get us very far.

This is why many astrologers who rectify charts work mainly with event timing. For example, if you know the birth dates of the native's three children, you would theorize that something should activate her 5th house at those dates, whatever house cusp sign ruler or tenants might be activated.

Because I don't have any high-powered software I seldom do any chart rectification. I think we should all learn to read nativities with no houses. We lose a lot of desired information that way, but it's better to lose it than to use a default time and bogus house cusps.

I would use the Astrodienst default noon birth time in a no-house chart, and then recognize that the moon could move six degrees either way. The moon also changes sign every third day.

I don't have a birth time for my husband of 19 years. However, the moon changed sign on his birthday. I just think the Sagittarian moon fits him so well, but a Capricorn moon does not. So this first-cut narrows the time of day in which he could have been born. We can quickly eliminate a bunch of potential rising signs.

Profections tend to highlight the events of a given year, noted in sequence around the 12 whole sign houses. If the house itself doesn't seem activated, look at the cusp ruler.

Eventually, using the range of timing techniques in your repertory, you can work by a process of elimination.

Obviously horary astrology can't work this way. But if your goal is to read a natal chart, then we have to recognize that astrology isn't an exact science. House cusps wiggle around a little or a lot with different house systems, notably for high-latitude births. The sidereal zodiac would put all of our planets at 24 or 27 degrees earlier than our accustomed tropical zodiac would-- depending upon whom you ask. Then many astrologers think that a planet within 5 degrees of the next house cusp means that its action is felt primarily in the next house.

Which is why I am sceptical of assuming that pinpoint accuracy in designating a birth time can really matter all that much in natal chart interpretation. I tend to focus first on tight aspects, because these should pertain regardless, and close squares and oppositions in particular indicate key life issues for the native.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 09-07-2015 at 10:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Unread 09-07-2015, 10:55 PM
Dirius's Avatar
Dirius Dirius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,565
Re: What is chart rectification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Certainly we have to recognize that more than one horoscopic placement can simulate the same manifestation. Perhaps Taurus isn't rising, but the native has Venus in the first house, for example. So trying to determine the rising sign by the native's appearance alone may not get us very far.

This is why many astrologers who rectify charts work mainly with event timing. For example, if you know the birth dates of the native's three children, you would theorize that something should activate her 5th house at those dates, whatever house cusp sign ruler or tenants might be activated.
But the problem still remains, that without a certain time frame, you can't really determine which cusp a planet is affecting. I presume that the method you are reffering to, is of transits to house cusps for specific dates:

a) The first problem you find is that, while you look for transits to a specific house cusps for those dates, you can find very similar meanings to explain this. For example, as I mentioned, Venus or Moon as woman signifiers can both present a viable explanation to the birth of a daughter, or Jupiter ruler of good things in general.

b) The second problem is the secondary signification of house ruler, given that you can't really know which planet would rule the 5th house (lets say Saturn does), you can't be certain that the birth of children would be caused by Saturn as the radix ruler of the house, rather than Moon/Venus/Jupiter.

Considering point "A" and point "B", you may very well have 4 planets that could, depending on the method, describe the situation on the chart-

So by these simple contradiction, it is imposible to rectify without knowledge using methods like Transits or Solar returns, because many ascendant positions can explain the transits or solar returns, and still give you a high match for the events.


Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Because I don't have any high-powered software I seldom do any chart rectification. I think we should all learn to read nativities with no houses. We lose a lot of desired information that way, but it's better to lose it than to use a default time and bogus house cusps.

I would use the Astrodienst default noon birth time in a no-house chart, and then recognize that the moon could move six degrees either way. The moon also changes sign every third day.

I don't have a birth time for my husband of 19 years. However, the moon changed sign on his birthday. I just think the Sagittarian moon fits him so well, but a Capricorn moon does not. So this first-cut narrows the time of day in which he could have been born. We can quickly eliminate a bunch of potential rising signs.
But psychological readings are by far the most unreliable ways to determine a person's chart. The whole concept in this case would work on the assumption that you are making, for example, of your husband having a Sagittarian Moon, just because it is your impression that he does.

Furthermore in this example you are talking about someone you've known for over 19 years, so obviously at that point you do have some insight on his personality. You can't really expect that with most people.

Quote:
Profections tend to highlight the events of a given year, noted in sequence around the 12 whole sign houses. If the house itself doesn't seem activated, look at the cusp ruler.
The most important profections are those of the Ascendant, the Sun and the Moon. So there are 2 problems that arise on this point:

a) You can't use the Ascendant because you don't know it. You can't use Moon because you don't know its exact sign (like in your husband's example, he may be capricorn or sagittarius Moon). So all you can use is the Sun profections.

b) Profections themselves matter to planetary position. The Sun profecting to, for example, the Moon in Capricorn isn't the same as the Sun profecting to the Moon in Sagittarius. Furthermore, this would imply the profection to that planet occurs in different given years.

So profections also fail for this, because the great amount of planetary significances vary too much.

c) A profection is read in light of a birth chart, not as a stand alone chart. To understand what the profection means you need to understand what the planet represents in the chart in the first place, aside from its natural rulerships.

The Sun as ruler of the Ascendant, being profected, isn't the same as the Sun as the ruler of the 3rd house.

So profections also become unreliable to a 24 hour rectification.

Quote:
Eventually, using the range of timing techniques in your repertory, you can work by a process of elimination.
But in the end the elimination is based on assumptions rather than an objective view of the chart.

The reason I'm saying it can't be done, at least not by the methods known to us, is because it can't logically sustain itself.

Of course if someone came up with a new, completly different secret method no one knows about, that happens to avoid all the problems the others method have, then yes by all means, it could be possible.

...but since most of the talk has been about already existing methods, then it is clear that it can't be done.
__________________
If you'd like a private Horary or Natal consultation, please visit me at:

https://antiqueastrology.wordpress.com/

You'll also find some tips for horary practice!

Last edited by Dirius; 09-07-2015 at 11:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dirius For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (09-08-2015)
  #33  
Unread 09-08-2015, 03:08 AM
wan wan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 944
Re: What is chart rectification?

I think this is a fascinating topic. Is there anybody who can rectify my chart for me? I have a birth time, however I often feel that it's not "right".

Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Unread 09-08-2015, 03:31 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,283
Re: What is chart rectification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
But the problem still remains, that without a certain time frame, you can't really determine which cusp a planet is affecting. I presume that the method you are reffering to, is of transits to house cusps for specific dates:
Not necessarily. As I indicated several times previously (cough, ahem,) you have to be familiar with multiple timing techniques. For example, with a birth time given on my birth certificate, I found that straight transits worked for my son's birth, while my daughter's birth related to a tertiary progression.

Quote:
a) The first problem you find is that, while you look for transits to a specific house cusps for those dates, you can find very similar meanings to explain this. For example, as I mentioned, Venus or Moon as woman signifiers can both present a viable explanation to the birth of a daughter, or Jupiter ruler of good things in general.
But these aren't transits I would normally look for, except as they might relate to a particular house. Again, use multiple timed events. Then once you have a working hypothesis, check it again, against further timed events. Also, a given timed event may not relate to a house cusp, but to a conjunction with natal planet in the house.

I know you dislike the modern outers, but some astrologers feel that Uranus transiting into a house is a sensitive indicator because it governs sudden change.

Quote:
b) The second problem is the secondary signification of house ruler, given that you can't really know which planet would rule the 5th house (lets say Saturn does), you can't be certain that the birth of children would be caused by Saturn as the radix ruler of the house, rather than Moon/Venus/Jupiter.
Look, Dirius, I never said rectification would be easy. This is why a lot of astrologers don't get into chart rectification. Furthermore, some astrologers believe that given individuals respond better to one house system or another. Member Alice McDermott (professional astrologer Alice Portman) has made an in-depth historical study of the British royal family, and found that they responded best to the Regiomontanus house system.

I sure don't see the radix ruler of a house as "causing" events. Timing is all about synchronicity.

But let's unpack this a little. Suppose neither of the native's parents is living. She gives you their death dates. Dad's death should theoretically be the 8th from her 4th house, or your 11th house. Mom's death should theoretically be the 8th from her 10th house, or 5th house. Start with these as hypotheticals, then keep working through more dates. Mods might do the parental houses in reverse (Mom=#4, Dad=#10,) so maybe that's a better fit. (It is in my chart.) Maybe the native had a marriage and divorce. What does this suggest for a 7th house?

Maybe you don't find a transit, but find a solar arc or progression "hit."

Quote:
Considering point "A" and point "B", you may very well have 4 planets that could, depending on the method, describe the situation on the chart-
So this is why you wouldn't focus so much on the meaning of a planet as a first rough-cut, but on the meaning of a house. Again, start with an event and determine which house best describes it. If straight-up transits don't seem to apply, try


Quote:
So by these simple contradiction, it is imposible to rectify without knowledge using methods like Transits or Solar returns, because many ascendant positions can explain the transits or solar returns, and still give you a high match for the events.
Is there an echo in here? I mentioned several times that you need a good repertory of different timing techniques.

Quote:
But psychological readings are by far the most unreliable ways to determine a person's chart. The whole concept in this case would work on the assumption that you are making, for example, of your husband having a Sagittarian Moon, just because it is your impression that he does.
Well, to each his own. Theoretically a planet shows the "what" in a chart, like a noun in a sentence. The house shows the "where" or "domain of life" in which a planet operates. A sign shows "how or in what manner."

A natal Sagittarian moon (Jupiter-ruled, mutable fire) is very different from a Capricorn moon (Saturnine cardinal earth.) He's generally optimistic, enjoys studying philosophy, and generous. He is often enthusiastic. His emotional nature is not notably governed by caution (Saturn), or by a material/practical orientation (earth); traits more akin to Capricorn. (You don't have to think "psychology" here, but traditional astrology's concern with temperament: choleric, phlegmatic, melancholic, and sanguine.) Then we consider natal aspects to a hypothetical moon location.

Obviously after 19 years of marriage plus additional time of acquaintanceship, friendship, courtship, &c, I've gotten to know the guy pretty well. In our case, I've also got synastry to work with, although not every astrologer would.

So I think in about 1/3 cases where the moon changed signs on the person's birth date, I think you have a leg up on the rectification process.

Quote:
Furthermore in this example you are talking about someone you've known for over 19 years, so obviously at that point you do have some insight on his personality. You can't really expect that with most people.
Naturally not. But note that Kannon, who rectifies charts as a professional astrologer, stresses that it is helpful and important to know something about the native personally. We're not really into "blind" chart readings with rectification.

Quote:
The most important profections are those of the Ascendant, the Sun and the Moon. So there are 2 problems that arise on this point:

a) You can't use the Ascendant because you don't know it. You can't use Moon because you don't know its exact sign (like in your husband's example, he may be capricorn or sagittarius Moon). So all you can use is the Sun profections.

b) Profections themselves matter to planetary position. The Sun profecting to, for example, the Moon in Capricorn isn't the same as the Sun profecting to the Moon in Sagittarius. Furthermore, this would imply the profection to that planet occurs in different given years.

So profections also fail for this, because the great amount of planetary significances vary too much.

c) A profection is read in light of a birth chart, not as a stand alone chart. To understand what the profection means you need to understand what the planet represents in the chart in the first place, aside from its natural rulerships.

The Sun as ruler of the Ascendant, being profected, isn't the same as the Sun as the ruler of the 3rd house.

So profections also become unreliable to a 24 hour rectification.
Profections are simply one tool in your tool kit, Dirius. You are familiar with techniques of prognostication or prediction in astrology. With rectification, you essentially apply these techniques-- but in a retrospective or "post-dictive" manner. Have you seen this thread? http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1338990298

I think the problem is that you consider and discard methods one at a time. In rectification, however, you would probably deploy several predictive (post-dictive) methods, keeping all of them out on the table. Because one of the native's life-events might have responded to a transit, another to a solar arc, another to profection, and so on.

So for example, suppose after working with several solid dates, you come up with a hypothetical chart that seems to fit them. You thereby come up with a hypothetical first house/rising sign and 10th house/sign. Try a profection (which may work best with whole signs, as Paul recommends on that thread,) and then see if it correlates with your hypothesis or necessitates further refinement.

Needless to say, in roughly 2/3 of the cases you know the moon sign because the moon didn't change on the birth date. You would know the sun sign in roughly 29/30 or 30/31 cases.

Laurie Efrein, in her book, How to Rectify a Birth Chart, says that angles are involved in nearly all major life events in one way or another, so we would look for tie-ins, even with events linked to non-angular houses.


Quote:
But in the end the elimination is based on assumptions rather than an objective view of the chart.

The reason I'm saying it can't be done, at least not by the methods known to us, is because it can't logically sustain itself.

Of course if someone came up with a new, completly different secret method no one knows about, that happens to avoid all the problems the others method have, then yes by all means, it could be possible.

...but since most of the talk has been about already existing methods, then it is clear that it can't be done.
It is by no means correct "that it can't be done." It is being done, and by respected traditional astrologers like Benjamin Dykes and Chris Brennan http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2...rectification/. What is abundantly clear is that you don't want to consider rectification beyond your immediate rejection.

Brennan sensibly notes that a rectification is, at some level, speculative (if you can never check it against a verified birth time,) yet it can work really well for most applied purposes. You might be interested to see how he uses the traditional concepts of sect, benefic and malefic planets, and whole sign houses.

But maybe at this point, Dirius, you will consider the ways in which traditional astrologers differ significantly from one another. Chart rectification is an ancient pursuit (as JA noted,) precisely because during so much of astrology's history, accurate clocks and birth times were unavailable.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 09-08-2015 at 03:34 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Unread 09-08-2015, 03:39 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,283
Re: What is chart rectification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wan View Post
I think this is a fascinating topic. Is there anybody who can rectify my chart for me? I have a birth time, however I often feel that it's not "right".

Thanks.
You might contact Kannon, on this thread. Rectification is one area where I would suggest you pay a professional astrologer for his/her expertise and time.

Dirius: just one other thing. I don't know whether you practice electional or predictive astrology based on nativities. But obviously astrologers predict future outcomes when their reality isn't known, at least not for a while. Highly speculative, eh wot? And then sometimes predictive astrologers get it wrong. Rectification has been called "reverse engineering" of a horoscope, because the events are generally known and you try to match up the chart to those events.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 09-08-2015 at 03:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Unread 09-08-2015, 04:23 AM
Dirius's Avatar
Dirius Dirius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,565
Re: What is chart rectification?

I really don't get why you would make such a long post explaining your method, while it still fails to take on account that the whole process you just described is merely based on choice.

As you start your post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Then once you have a working hypothesis, check it again, against further timed events.
Here is when the problem arises and the rest follows. It is still a "working" hypothesis, among many other working "hypothesis".

You can probably come up with 3 or 4 different charts that may explain the individual. The one you pick, doesn't make it right, on a 24 hour chart with no time.

Yes you can find a transit, and then a progression. You can do the same with the next chart, if you are looking to explain. Its observational bias.

If you give 2 different astrologers a chart with no time, both of them will probably come up with different ascendants. Why? because they both "found" different transits, positions, directions that seemed to explain the same thing.

However, with a more or less accurate time frame, most astrologers end up agreeing in a very similar degree Ascendant.

If you probably give everyone that commented on this post a chart with a lets say 2 hour time frame, most of us will probably rectify the chart very closely from each other (with a difference of a few degrees at best).

...but with a time less chart, its most likely that everyone that is claiming that they can do it, will probably come up with very different charts. (unless of course the is some conjoint effort to make it similar, which would be cheating)

That it is why it would be a hypothesis. Its an idea, not a proven fact.

Nothing with that method could ensure that you have the right chart.

The rest of your post is you explaining your method of rectification, which I think is fair, but still not conclusive for a 24 hour rectification.

Quote:
It is by no means correct "that it can't be done." It is being done, and by respected traditional astrologers like Benjamin Dykes and Chris Brennan http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2...rectification/. What is abundantly clear is that you don't want to consider rectification beyond your immediate rejection.
You keep sending links of well-known astrologers and their posts on rectification. Yet none of them has even implied that 24 hour rectification can be done.

They are just topics on common rectification techniques. So I don't think it is fair to send a link, to pass it as "proof" when the subject isn't even mentioned.

Finally this:

Quote:
Naturally not. But note that Kannon, who rectifies charts as a professional astrologer, stresses that it is helpful and important to know something about the native personally. We're not really into "blind" chart readings with rectification.
The chart posted by unique_astrology was done:

- without many life events (2 perhaps).
- without knowing the individual at all.

Yet to keep stressing how important this things are...yet the chart that originated this discussion fails to have the "requirements" you mention. That doesn't make much sense.

So whats the deal there?
__________________
If you'd like a private Horary or Natal consultation, please visit me at:

https://antiqueastrology.wordpress.com/

You'll also find some tips for horary practice!

Last edited by Dirius; 09-08-2015 at 05:35 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dirius For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (09-08-2015)
  #37  
Unread 09-08-2015, 06:24 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,283
Re: What is chart rectification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
I really don't get why you would make such a long post explaining your method, while it still fails to take on account that the whole process you just described is merely based on choice.
What do you mean, "my method"? Chart rectification has been around for around 2000 years, involves many methods, and many practitioners. I'm just trying to explain the rudiments to you. If you read the Chris Brennan blog, you will note that his methods differ from unique_astrology's; which are based on more sophisticated techniques than I've mentioned-- or learned. For another method example, location may make a difference, so some astrologers look at planetary lines.

"Choice" certainly has its limits in astrology. If an important life event for your client was a sudden catastrophic loss of personal income, you wouldn't look for it in the 5th house. You wouldn't confuse a stressed-out Saturn with a domiciled angular Jupiter.

Quote:
As you start your post: "Then once you have a working hypothesis, check it again, against further timed events."

Here is when the problem arises and the rest follows. It is still a "working" hypothesis, among many other working "hypothesis".

You can probably come up with 3 or 4 different charts that may explain the individual. The one you pick, doesn't make it right, on a 24 hour chart with no time.
Well, yes and no. Dirius, are you familiar with the concept of probabilities in statistics? Or the "snowball" research method in sociology? Please read these explanations, if not:

In mathematics, probability essentially means "the extent to which an event is likely to occur, measured by the ratio of the favorable cases to the whole number of cases possible." (from the Google search dictionary)

Suppose you have seven solid dates for a nativity of unknown birth time. You devise a chart in which 7/7 or 100% of the dates match up well with your hypothetical chart. (Keeping in mind that if astrology means anything, the events should coincide with the houses that pertain to those events.) The more your success rate compounds, the more likely it is that your chart is correct or close to correct.

Can you say for certain that your final rectified chart is correct? No, but then many astrologers question the accuracy of birth certificate times due to rounding errors, or inaccurate recording or transcribing.

The snowball sampling method involves obtaining qualitative information from more and more sources, until a point is reached where new sources reveal no new information not previously acquired. In rectification this might mean that after your 7 for 7 success rate, you acquire 5 more life event dates for the horoscope native, so that you can check your tentative chart-- and you get a 12/12 success rate (defined as having the nature of the life event match the house schema you previously constructed.) At this point, you might sensibly conclude you've got something.

Quote:
Yes you can find a transit, and then a progression. You can do the same with the next chart, if you are looking to explain. Its observational bias.

If you give 2 different astrologers a chart with no time, both of them will probably come up with different ascendants. Why? because they both "found" different transits, positions, directions that seemed to explain the same thing.
I hear what you are saying. I gave the example above, of the possibility of confusing Taurus rising with Venus in the first house. But let's return to first principles of timing in the natal horoscope. Suppose your client gives you 5 dates, involving children's births, sudden job loss, a serious illness, and a new romance. We leave the ascendant out of it for the moment, because none of these events is a first house matter. On the other hand, if you've met the client and he has a bent posture and crooked teeth (physical appearance) you might consider Saturn in the first house or as the ruler of the first just as your first rough cut. (Saturn ruling the bones and teeth.)

And then eventually you reach a point where you can triangulate between your accumulated data points.

Quote:
However, with a more or less accurate time frame, most astrologers end up agreeing in a very similar degree Ascendant.

If you probably give everyone that commented on this post a chart with a lets say 2 hour time frame, most of us will probably rectify the chart very closely from each other (with a difference of a few degrees at best).
Well, does anyone here disagree with this? All that some of us are saying is that skilled astrologers are capable of going further than this. But it takes a lot of time, patience, and skill. 24-hour rectification isn't for beginners.

Quote:
...but with a time less chart, its most likely that everyone that is claiming that they can do it, will probably come up with very different charts. (unless of course the is some conjoint effort to make it similar, which would be cheating)

That it is why it would be a hypothesis. Its an idea, not a proven fact.

Nothing with that method could ensure that you have the right chart.

The rest of your post is you explaining your method of rectification, which I think is fair, but still not conclusive for a 24 hour rectification.
Dirius, it isn't productive to speculate about cheating or radically different charts. I've noticed that many astrologers who do rectification are also interested in the topic of timing other sorts of events, whether retrospectively or predictively. Some of them develop more sophisticated techniques than those with which I'm familiar.

We've already covered the point that there will always be some uncertainty with a rectified chart. Just as some astrologers claim uncertainty with a recorded birth time. How do we know that the recorder at the county clerk's office didn't transpose a.m. for p.m., or misread a "5" for a "3"? You cannot know for certain, in most cases, that the recorded time is correct. Mom's memory may have faded to the point where she doesn't recall, 20 years later, exactly what time her son was born. (For sure, she had other things on her mind during the delivery.)

Without doubt, a recorded birth time is the best thing to go by. But many things in life have a Plan B.

Quote:
You keep sending links of well-known astrologers and their posts on rectification. Yet none of them has yet even implied that 24 hour rectification can be done.
I should think it's obvious, that none of them says they will rectify a chart only if an approximate birth time is given! Obviously, it's a lot easier to rectify a chart with an approximate birth time, but a skilled astrologer is not so limited.

But here is the definition of rectification in James R. Lewis, The Astrology Book: The Encyclopedia of Heavenly Influences:

"Rectification is the process of adjusting the birth chart to the precise birth time in cases where the birthday is known but the birth moment is inexact or completely unknown."

Laurie Efrein, in How to Rectify a Birthchart, pp. 34-36, goes even further, arguing that the native's life-- his personality and biography-- are the core of astrology. We start with his personality (temperament to you trads) and life events: then we construct a chart that is true to life for this person prior to attempting any delineation. "The chart can work only the way the native's life works." In this context, we're not looking simply to tweak a pre-given rising sign.

Efrein gives some detailed protocols and worksheets, as a means of systematizing a potentially random process.

Quote:
They are just topics on common rectification techniques. So I don't think it is fair to send a link, to pass it as "proof" when the subject isn't even mentioned.
Who's talking "proof", Dirius? Frankly, when you do a horary reading and the querent doesn't get back to you on the outcome of the predicted event, you have no "proof" of the accuracy of your methods.

Quote:
Finally this:

The chart posted by unique_astrology was done:

- without many life events (2 perhaps).
- without knowing the individual at all.

Yet to keep stressing how important this things are...yet the chart that originated this discussion fails to have the "requirements" you mention. That doesn't make much sense.

So whats the deal there?
As I said above, unique_astrology is the one to explain his own methods. They are more advanced than the ones I am used to. We don't know what research he may have conducted yet not mentioned in a brief post. In any event, this is now a thread on rectification more generally (thanks to Tim's ministrations. However, celebrities by their nature generally have a lot known about them, thanks to all their publicity. Their various life event dates are usually not hard to find.

I have to stress that there are many different methods for chart rectification, yet they all follow from the principle that the chart should represent the native's life. They don't actually follow from any principle about sticking to a guesstimated ascendant based on a parent's hazy recall, that could be way off, for its own reasons.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 09-08-2015 at 06:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Unread 09-08-2015, 07:07 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,283
Re: What is chart rectification?

Unique_astrology says more about his chart rectification methods on this thread:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=87156
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Unread 09-08-2015, 08:13 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,446
Re: What is chart rectification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Unique_astrology says more about his chart rectification methods on this thread:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=87156
and also presents speculative theories on Fogle at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...&postcount=837
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post


As I said above, unique_astrology is the one to explain his own methods.
They are more advanced than the ones I am used to.
We don't know what research he may have conducted yet not mentioned in a brief post.


he states that the charts are speculative


Quote:
Originally Posted by unique_astrology View Post

My speculative charts produce charts that engage transits and/or progressions formed by any planets
Dirius highlights that the chart you linked to was done not only without many life events
but also without knowing the individual at all
yet you yourself continually stress the importance of having many life events
as well as of knowing the individual personally

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post

The chart posted by unique_astrology was done:

- without many life events (2 perhaps).
- without knowing the individual at all.


Yet to keep stressing how important this things are...yet the chart that originated this discussion fails to have the "requirements" you mention. That doesn't make much sense.

So whats the deal there?
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf

Last edited by JUPITERASC; 09-08-2015 at 08:28 AM. Reason: clarification
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Unread 09-08-2015, 08:35 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,446
Re: What is chart rectification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wan View Post

I think this is a fascinating topic. Is there anybody who can rectify my chart for me?
I have a birth time, however I often feel that it's not "right".

Thanks.
there are FREE tips on rectification at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=51626

Since you have a birth time check out detailed instructions on
how to calculate the pre-natal Epoch Rectification Method
FOR FREE at
http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm



A RECTIFICATION MANUAL
: THE US PRESIDENCY - get it here:[B][COLOR=Navy]
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0980185602/...l_4q1l2auwm0_b

[deleted copyrighted content by request - Moderator]

A Rectification Manual is the largest collection of natal charts subjected to medieval predictive techniques available in today’s marketplace and includes a pdf of a sample rectification from the book http://regulus-astrology.com/A%20Rec...%20Example.pdf
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf

Last edited by wilsontc; 09-08-2015 at 07:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Unread 09-08-2015, 08:37 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,446
Re: What is chart rectification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

What do you mean, "my method"?
Dirius clearly stated his meaning when he quoted your post
- i.e.


Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread

Then once you have a working hypothesis, check it again, against further timed events.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post

I really don't get why you would make such a long post explaining your method, while it still fails to take on account that the whole process you just described is merely based on choice.

As you start your post:
Quote: Originally Posted by waybread

Then once you have a working hypothesis, check it again, against further timed events.



Here is when the problem arises and the rest follows. It is still a "working" hypothesis, among many other working "hypothesis".

You can probably come up with 3 or 4 different charts that may explain the individual. The one you pick, doesn't make it right, on a 24 hour chart with no time.

Yes you can find a transit, and then a progression. You can do the same with the next chart, if you are looking to explain. Its observational bias.

If you give 2 different astrologers a chart with no time, both of them will probably come up with different ascendants. Why? because they both "found" different transits, positions, directions that seemed to explain the same thing.

However, with a more or less accurate time frame, most astrologers end up agreeing in a very similar degree Ascendant.

If you probably give everyone that commented on this post a chart with a lets say 2 hour time frame, most of us will probably rectify the chart very closely from each other (with a difference of a few degrees at best).

...but with a time less chart, its most likely that everyone that is claiming that they can do it, will probably come up with very different charts.
(unless of course the is some conjoint effort to make it similar, which would be cheating)


That it is why it would be a hypothesis. Its an idea, not a proven fact.

Nothing with that method could ensure that you have the right chart.

The rest of your post is you explaining your method of rectification, which I think is fair, but still not conclusive for a 24 hour rectification.

You keep sending links of well-known astrologers and their posts on rectification. Yet none of them has even implied that 24 hour rectification can be done.

They are just topics on common rectification techniques.
So I don't think it is fair to send a link, to pass it as "proof" when the subject isn't even mentioned
.

Finally this:

The chart posted by unique_astrology was done:

- without many life events (2 perhaps).
- without knowing the individual at all.

Yet to keep stressing how important this things are...
yet the chart that originated this discussion fails to have the "requirements" you mention. That doesn't make much sense.

So whats the deal there?
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post:
Dirius (09-08-2015)
  #42  
Unread 09-08-2015, 08:49 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,446
Re: What is chart rectification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Without doubt, a recorded birth time is the best thing to go by.
But many things in life have a Plan B.

I should think it's obvious, that none of them says they will rectify a chart only if an approximate birth time is given!
Obviously, it's a lot easier to rectify a chart with an approximate birth time, but a skilled astrologer is not so limited.
'A skilled astrologer' may 'not be so limited'
and there are numerous techniques from astrological antiquity
which work well such as

the pre-natal Epoch Rectification Method

which is available online FOR FREE at
http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

You might contact Kannon, on this thread. Rectification is one area where I would suggest you pay a professional astrologer for his/her expertise and time.

Kannon believes in and follows John Willner INCARN astrology
and
relies on psychic/intuitive methods of Edgar Cayce/John Willner
thus their 'skill' is based
on unverifiable "INCARN astrology incarnation windows"
which are a matter of conjecture
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Unread 09-08-2015, 11:13 AM
Dirius's Avatar
Dirius Dirius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,565
Re: What is chart rectification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Well, yes and no. Dirius, are you familiar with the concept of probabilities in statistics? Or the "snowball" research method in sociology? Please read these explanations, if not:

In mathematics, probability essentially means "the extent to which an event is likely to occur, measured by the ratio of the favorable cases to the whole number of cases possible." (from the Google search dictionary)

Suppose you have seven solid dates for a nativity of unknown birth time. You devise a chart in which 7/7 or 100% of the dates match up well with your hypothetical chart. (Keeping in mind that if astrology means anything, the events should coincide with the houses that pertain to those events.) The more your success rate compounds, the more likely it is that your chart is correct or close to correct.

Can you say for certain that your final rectified chart is correct? No, but then many astrologers question the accuracy of birth certificate times due to rounding errors, or inaccurate recording or transcribing.

The snowball sampling method involves obtaining qualitative information from more and more sources, until a point is reached where new sources reveal no new information not previously acquired. In rectification this might mean that after your 7 for 7 success rate, you acquire 5 more .............................................
Let me highlight the most important thing you said on that post:

Can you say for certain that your final rectified chart is correct? No

I understand probabilities waybread, and I understand your point that if the chart seems to match, the odds of that being the time birth are obviously high.

Yet it doesn't mean the chart is the accurate one. Why? Simple, because another "sample" chart can also get the same high succes results.

Here you can go about that the method you described may get you good results. But its not really a certain one.

What you keep ignoring from my point, is the fact that, along with a very accurate chart, you can also make a different one, that may probably fit all those points too, with a very different setup. Given that there could be a wide arrange of charts that may fit the life on the individual, therefore, identifying the correct one with certain judgement is imposible.

The concept can't be sustained because it still has a high probability of not being the correct one.

Also that implication means leaving aside the other 2 or 3 possible charts that would also describe the native's life very well.

Quote:
I should think it's obvious, that none of them says they will rectify a chart only if an approximate birth time is given! Obviously, it's a lot easier to rectify a chart with an approximate birth time, but a skilled astrologer is not so limited.

But here is the definition of rectification in James R. Lewis, The Astrology Book: The Encyclopedia of Heavenly Influences:

"Rectification is the process of adjusting the birth chart to the precise birth time in cases where the birthday is known but the birth moment is inexact or completely unknown."

Laurie Efrein, in How to Rectify a Birthchart, pp. 34-36, goes even further, arguing that the native's life-- his personality and biography-- are the core of astrology. We start with his personality (temperament to you trads) and life events: then we construct a chart that is true to life for this person prior to attempting any delineation. "The chart can work only the way the native's life works." In this context, we're not looking simply to tweak a pre-given rising sign.

Efrein gives some detailed protocols and worksheets, as a means of systematizing a potentially random process.
I'm glad your authors thinks he can. Tell me does he offer any sample chart or method for a completly unkown chart? And any given example with a tested chart?

Or is just "his opinion" that it can be done.

Quote:
Who's talking "proof", Dirius? Frankly, when you do a horary reading and the querent doesn't get back to you on the outcome of the predicted event, you have no "proof" of the accuracy of your methods.

As I said above, unique_astrology is the one to explain his own methods. They are more advanced than the ones I am used to. We don't know what research he may have conducted yet not mentioned in a brief post. In any event, this is now a thread on rectification more generally (thanks to Tim's ministrations. However, celebrities by their nature generally have a lot known about them, thanks to all their publicity. Their various life event dates are usually not hard to find.

I have to stress that there are many different methods for chart rectification, yet they all follow from the principle that the chart should represent the native's life. They don't actually follow from any principle about sticking to a guesstimated ascendant based on a parent's hazy recall, that could be way off, for its own reasons.
Well given that the original question in the other topic was directed at unique_astrology and not at you, yet it was you the one defending the method, I suppose that you were either aware of the method, or at least agreeing with it.

Yet the contradiction on your statement makes me question on how you would agree or state that the method can be done, if it doesn't even have the qualifications you are saying it should have.

Given that the 2 points you are basing your argument are that you would require a large amount of events to time along with good knowledge of the individual, and the chart posted by unique_astrology probably lacks both this points, it doesn't really make much sense.

Furthermore, lets be realistic on something: The chart was termed as a "speculative" chart. You are keen on definitions, lets understand that the chart was labeled as just a speculation of what his chart may look like, but not exactly a real one.
__________________
If you'd like a private Horary or Natal consultation, please visit me at:

https://antiqueastrology.wordpress.com/

You'll also find some tips for horary practice!

Last edited by Dirius; 09-08-2015 at 11:38 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dirius For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (09-08-2015), Oddity (09-08-2015)
  #44  
Unread 09-08-2015, 03:08 PM
muchacho muchacho is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,732
Re: What is chart rectification?

It can't be done with a purely mathematical approach in the same way a chart synthesis can't be done with a purely mathematical approach. A chart synthesis is more than just compiling and adding up different parts. The whole is more than just the sum of its parts. The intellect can't see the whole, the intellect can only see the parts or the sum of all parts at best. To see the whole, one has to look at it from beyond the intellect, which is the realm of intuition and psychic phenomena. A computer can't do that. That's why computers can't do chart synthesis and why we need astrologers. If an astrologer can't see from beyond the intellect either, then the astrologer is not better than the computer and can't do a synthesis either and so is of limited use only. And what applies to chart synthesis also applies to chart rectification.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #45  
Unread 09-08-2015, 08:33 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,283
Re: What is chart rectification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Let me highlight the most important thing you said on that post:

Can you say for certain that your final rectified chart is correct? No
Let me highlight an important thing that you are missing or simply dislke, Dirius. You have no guarantee that a birth certificate or hospital birth time is correct. Which is why some astrologers (not me) believe that all charts should be rectified, regardless, so that the resulting chart gives the best fit with the native's biography. So, Dirius:

Can you say for certain that any natal chart is correct? No

Quote:
I understand probabilities waybread, and I understand your point that if the chart seems to match, the odds of that being the time birth are obviously high.

Yet it doesn't mean the chart is the accurate one. Why? Simple, because another "sample" chart can also get the same high succes results.

Here you can go about that the method you described may get you good results. But its not really a certain one.
Dirius, nothing is certain in astrology!!! And for so many reasons. We don't look for certainty in astrology. We look for a chart that is radical. Then we do the best job of interpretation that we can with it. "Radical" here has nothing to do with far-left politics. In astrology, "radical" simply means a chart that gives good interpretive results. (For an excellent discussion of this principle, read Geoffrey Cornelius, The Moment of Astrology.)

I have no difficulty in taking your point, except that it is off-base. When you read a horary chart, you don't know for certain that the client gave you the correct time, or that your own timing (if you go by the moment that you grasp the question) is truly accurate for the moment of the question. But you would get a sense before proceeding, of whether or not the chart seemed radical. Some astrologers do this by checking the ruler of the hour, while others would plunge in, regardless.

Quote:
What you keep ignoring from my point, is the fact that, along with a very accurate chart, you can also make a different one, that may probably fit all those points too, with a very different setup. Given that there could be a wide arrange of charts that may fit the life on the individual, therefore, identifying the correct one with certain judgement is imposible.
Actually, Dirius, you have presented no evidence to support your position here. Can you supply some examples? (I can, but I'll wait, if the suspense doesn't kill me first.) But let's turn your question on its head.

Suppose 3 astrologers tackle the problem of rectifying the horoscope of Eva Pern, whose true birth time is unknown, and there are some conflicting testimonies. (Are you familiar with the Rodden rating system for birth times, explained at http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Help:RR ? The Astro-DataBank has hundreds of charts, and they're not all rated AA.) Each astrologer gets to work and comes up with a different birth chart. Ideally, the 3 of them then get together and work out their differences, but the "best" chart cannot be based on accuracy, when your sole definition of accuracy is an identical match up with the birth moment (which, mind you, may not even be the time on the birth certificate.) The radical chart is the one that gives the best results when subsequently checked against further biographical details of Eva Pern's life.

Quote:
The concept can't be sustained because it still has a high probability of not being the correct one.

Also that implication means leaving aside the other 2 or 3 possible charts that would also describe the native's life very well.
Review the concept of the radical chart, described above, and explain how you deal with the reality that an official birth record might be wrong: not just by minutes, but by an am/pm mix-up or transcription error.

[/quote]I'm glad your authors thinks he can. Tell me does he offer any sample chart or method for a completly unkown chart? And any given example with a tested chart?

Or is just "his opinion" that it can be done.
[/quote]

Occasionally an accurate birth time does subsequently show up, against which a rectification can be compared. See: https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2012...rectification/

Back when I first learned astrology I had no birth record and both my parents were deceased. I struggled mightily with rectification, and actually came within several degrees of my subsequently-discovered birth record time. While my ascendant sign was off (it's late Virgo, vs. my best guess was early Libra,) it wasn't a bad effort for a novice, and most of my planets in houses stayed the same, depending on the house system used.

Quote:
Well given that the original question in the other topic was directed at unique_astrology and not at you, yet it was you the one defending the method, I suppose that you were either aware of the method, or at least agreeing with it.
Well, suppose again, Dirius. Rather, I've seen a lot of unique_astrology's work, both here and at Astrodienst. He's pretty impressive. What I am sticking up for, in a more general way, is the concept of rectification. And sure, as Chris Brennan (linked above) noted, let's understand that the rectified chart is tentative. It's not cast in bronze. But than neither is a hospital record.

Quote:
Yet the contradiction on your statement makes me question on how you would agree or state that the method can be done, if it doesn't even have the qualifications you are saying it should have.

Given that the 2 points you are basing your argument are that you would require a large amount of events to time along with good knowledge of the individual, and the chart posted by unique_astrology probably lacks both this points, it doesn't really make much sense.
You are arguing with the wrong person about this, Dirius. I suggest you PM unique_astrology and ask him for a full explanation.

Quote:
Furthermore, lets be realistic on something: The chart was termed as a "speculative" chart. You are keen on definitions, lets understand that the chart was labeled as just a speculation of what his chart may look like, but not exactly a real one.
Is there an echo in here? And good luck with verifying that "real chart."
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Unread 09-08-2015, 08:35 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,283
Re: What is chart rectification?

While we're at it, Dirius-- now that I know how convinced you are that the accurate birth time is knowable, you still have to deal with the problem of different house systems yielding different cusps, because this will make a huge difference in planets-in-houses, especially at high latitudes.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 09-08-2015 at 09:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Unread 09-09-2015, 12:04 AM
Dirius's Avatar
Dirius Dirius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,565
Re: What is chart rectification?

You begin to deflect again by talking about things that don't really have much to do with 24/hour rectification.

A birth certificate, while may not be the exact time of birth, does defintly provide you with a time frame, and usually gives you a correct time frame to work with. Specially if you can compare this with a family member's memory of the time (like an aunt recalling it was "around 10 pm at night")

Most birth certificate's require a little adjustment through rectification, never said they didn't.

However, not sure how this has anything to do with 24-hour rectification being possible or not.



The horary chart comment also has nothing to do with this thread. First of all, you know the time of your question, because it is for the moment. Not sure how someone could miss the exact time you are given a question with today's incredible amount of accurate clocks. Seems to me that the problem of casting a bad horary would be done by a careless person that doesn't know how to use a clock, rather than an astrological problem.

If anyone has trouble with this, I suggest you use: www.google.com for accurate clocks.

The problem of the innacurate chart, with little evidence to support its veracity, basing on a technique of "reverse engineering", seems plausible, but not exactly reliable. It has to do more with the imagination of the astrologer regarding with what he wants to see in the chart.

As I mentioned, its observational bias. You can come up with many different charts to explain the same life of the individual.

Quote:
Actually, Dirius, you have presented no evidence to support your position here. Can you supply some examples? (I can, but I'll wait, if the suspense doesn't kill me first.) But let's turn your question on its head.
Sure I haven't. But I'm not the one saying that something imposible can be done, or quoting supposedly authors that "can do it".

Quote:
Well, suppose again, Dirius. Rather, I've seen a lot of unique_astrology's work, both here and at Astrodienst. He's pretty impressive. What I am sticking up for, in a more general way, is the concept of rectification. And sure, as Chris Brennan (linked above) noted, let's understand that the rectified chart is tentative. It's not cast in bronze. But than neither is a hospital record.

You are arguing with the wrong person about this, Dirius. I suggest you PM unique_astrology and ask him for a full explanation.

Is there an echo in here? And good luck with verifying that "real chart."
I asked him in his post. It was you that decided to answer instead of him, which eventually derived to this thread.

A hospital record + a family recollection gives you a time frame to work with, which most likely is the correct one, and you can be certain you have an accurate chart.

With a made up chart, you can't. Doesn't matter how "good" it may look.
__________________
If you'd like a private Horary or Natal consultation, please visit me at:

https://antiqueastrology.wordpress.com/

You'll also find some tips for horary practice!

Last edited by Dirius; 09-09-2015 at 12:11 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dirius For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (09-09-2015)
  #48  
Unread 09-09-2015, 04:20 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,283
Re: What is chart rectification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
You begin to deflect again by talking about things that don't really have much to do with 24/hour rectification.

A birth certificate, while may not be the exact time of birth, does defintly provide you with a time frame, and usually gives you a correct time frame to work with. Specially if you can compare this with a family member's memory of the time (like an aunt recalling it was "around 10 pm at night")

Most birth certificate's require a little adjustment through rectification, never said they didn't.

However, not sure how this has anything to do with 24-hour rectification being possible or not.
Dirius, I think that you are soooo.... trusting of the accuracy of official records. I think you're perplexed about 24-hour rectification and have fixed ideas about it-- but based on what??? Do your ideas come from a teacher, an astrology club, a website, or specific books and articles? Or did you invent this idea?

There is so much material on 24-hour rectification by respected astrologers out there. I've done my best to point you to good sources, including by respected traditional astrologers; but you don't seem to read any of them before firing off another post. You seldom engage critically with ideas that confound your opinions, merely reverting back to points that I've already addressed.

And please, let's realize that Auntie Annie may be completely mistaken in her recollections; or that her recollections may well disagree with those of Auntie Mable 30 years after the birth, when the native first becomes interested in astrology.

At some point you are going to have to do more reading than this thread will allow. I've cited or linked you to sources on rectification that can get you started, as there isn't room on a thread to go through techniques that some astrologers take an entire book to explain or substantiate.

And frankly I don't have the patience for it.

I might also note that Vedic astrology also has techniques of chart rectification that are capable of addressing unknown birth times. Possibly this is because accurate clocks were less common in India when these techniques were developed.

Quote:
The horary chart comment also has nothing to do with this thread. First of all, you know the time of your question, because it is for the moment. Not sure how someone could miss the exact time you are given a question with today's incredible amount of accurate clocks. Seems to me that the problem of casting a bad horary would be done by a careless person that doesn't know how to use a clock, rather than an astrological problem.
Dirius, surely you recognize that there are all kinds of problems with timing in horary astrology, not the least of which is that on an astrology forum, most readers use the time when the OPer cast the chart, because that's what shows up on the OP chart. We have no way of knowing whether the question was kicking around in her head the day before she cast the chart; or whether she might have even known enough astrology to time the chart for a moment she found more auspicious, even though her question was from last week. Then some horary astrologers believe that the moment of the question is actually the moment at which the astrologer grasps the question in his own mind, not the moment when the client asks it. Consequently, you could have the most accurate clock on the planet, yet still not have an accurate time for the moment of the question.

You seem to have a sense of security about accuracy in a horoscope that you simply cannot verify. Indeed, you can only speculate that a recorded time is correct.

Quote:
If anyone has trouble with this, I suggest you use: www.google.com for accurate clocks.
Which completely misses the above point, that the problem may not be the clock, but that the querent really formulated the question too long before she constructed her chart (or phoned her astrologer) for the chart to be "of the moment."

Quote:
The problem of the innacurate chart, with little evidence to support its veracity, basing on a technique of "reverse engineering", seems plausible, but not exactly reliable. It has to do more with the imagination of the astrologer regarding with what he wants to see in the chart.

As I mentioned, its observational bias. You can come up with many different charts to explain the same life of the individual.
Dirius, your comment again says to me that you would benefit from more reading on rectification, because professional astrologers who rectify charts are very aware of the problem. This is why they prefer to start with cold, hard dates.

Quote:
Sure I haven't. But I'm not the one saying that something imposible can be done, or quoting supposedly authors that "can do it".

I asked him in his post. It was you that decided to answer instead of him, which eventually derived to this thread.

A hospital record + a family recollection gives you a time frame to work with, which most likely is the correct one, and you can be certain you have an accurate chart.

With a made up chart, you can't. Doesn't matter how "good" it may look.
Dirius, your comments that "the impossible can't be done," "a made up chart" or that I presumed to speak for unique_astrology are patently obvious diversionary tactics. Nobody, least of all me, would argue against a hospital record or solid, impeccable family recollection, where these exist-- as starting points.

Before you fire back, why don't you address my point about radical charts, or comment on the sources I linked for you that you just read or are about to read on 24-hour rectification?

Please keep in mind that astrologers who develop methods of rectification will often practice on charts where the birth time is given in a birth certificate (a Rodden AA rating.)

I will also suggest that sometimes people get into traditional or horary astrology, and will insist on what they construe as "accurate" birth times, because they hope it will give them a greater sense of control and certainty about life. Certainty, unfortunately, is apt to be illusory.

I think we should all learn to read nativities without birth times and without house cusps, but this doesn't mean I discount rectification in the hands of a skilled and experienced practitioner.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Unread 09-09-2015, 05:05 AM
Oddity's Avatar
Oddity Oddity is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 2,982
Re: What is chart rectification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Dirius, surely you recognize that there are all kinds of problems with timing in horary astrology, not the least of which is that on an astrology forum, most readers use the time when the OPer cast the chart, because that's what shows up on the OP chart. We have no way of knowing whether the question was kicking around in her head the day before she cast the chart; or whether she might have even known enough astrology to time the chart for a moment she found more auspicious, even though her question was from last week. Then some horary astrologers believe that the moment of the question is actually the moment at which the astrologer grasps the question in his own mind, not the moment when the client asks it. Consequently, you could have the most accurate clock on the planet, yet still not have an accurate time for the moment of the question.
A horary is cast for the time and place when and where the astrologer understands the question. On this forum, I believe we take the the OP to be the astrologer, and we may or may not comment on the chart, as we choose.

I don't think it's a wrong time that causes the vast majority of the charts posted here to not be horary, but you may disagree. Most of the questions are idle speculation, things that can easily be known by direct methods, etc., which makes much of it 'let's pretend'. Not to mention that most people who post here are not astrologers (but they're still the astrologer, per forum rules), and as Bonatti opined, many have not even the wit to know what they would ask.

Those of us who actually have worked or do work in horary tend to look at the clock.

Quote:
I will also suggest that sometimes people get into traditional or horary astrology, and will insist on what they construe as "accurate" birth times, because they hope it will give them a greater sense of control and certainty about life. Certainty, unfortunately, is apt to be illusory.
I've not noticed this. Modern astrology puts a lot of faith in free will and control of one's destiny, traditional astrology - not so much. Sometimes you can help people get around some of the nastiness, or help them find a fruitful way to approach something, and that's worth a lot. But sometimes the bad is going to happen anyway. Life tends to be that way.

Quote:
I think we should all learn to read nativities without birth times and without house cusps, but this doesn't mean I discount rectification in the hands of a skilled and experienced practitioner.
Then you're advocating non-horoscopic astrology, though I'm not sure that you've got a useful replacement for it. Which is fine because modern doesn't have rules, and if you truly believe that most birth times (and probably most birth dates) are post-modernly 'suspect' - well, I guess you would consider it a rational move.

Do you find a lot of horaries don't work out for you because of the wrong times or dates for the question, etc? Or birth charts? Your argument seems to come down to 'we should do what we want because astrology can't be efficacious/is impossible (for whatever reason)'.

Which could go a long ways towards explaining why we just don't understand each other.

Last edited by Oddity; 09-09-2015 at 05:09 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Oddity For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (09-09-2015)
  #50  
Unread 09-09-2015, 05:36 AM
Oddity's Avatar
Oddity Oddity is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 2,982
Re: What is chart rectification?

I just wanted to pull this out and comment separately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

...
Which completely misses the above point, that the problem may not be the clock, but that the querent really formulated the question too long before she constructed her chart (or phoned her astrologer) for the chart to be "of the moment."
In traditional astrology, and amongst the people I know who practise horary regardless whether they use outer planets, the time a question 'pops into someone's head' is not a horary moment.

A horary question, barring an emergency, is something you've mulled over, that's kept you awake at night, that you cannot discover an answer to by normal means.

You're supposed to give it a good bit of thought before you ask it.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Oddity For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (09-09-2015)
Reply

Tags
chart, rectification

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 09:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ゥ 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.