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Unread 08-29-2015, 04:58 AM
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What is chart rectification?

[moved from another thread - Moderator]

Dirius, are you familiar with chart rectification techniques?

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Unread 08-29-2015, 05:18 AM
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Re: What Pluto Giveth Pluto Taketh Away

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Dirius, are you familiar with chart rectification techniques?
Are you? you can't "rectify" a chart without a time of birth.

This is why its called "rectify", because you take the time of birth you are given and change it to the actual one.

A speculative chart with no actual time of birth, its not really a rectification.
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Unread 08-29-2015, 09:00 PM
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Re: What Pluto Giveth Pluto Taketh Away

Rectifying a chart, is having the time of birth and using major events in one's life, to pinpoint the time of birth. Which obviously takes considerable time and a very skilled astrologer. That has always been my understanding of it.

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Are you? you can't "rectify" a chart without a time of birth.

This is why its called "rectify", because you take the time of birth you are given and change it to the actual one.

A speculative chart with no actual time of birth, its not really a rectification.

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Unread 08-29-2015, 10:10 PM
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Re: What Pluto Giveth Pluto Taketh Away

If you have a time of birth, there is no need to rectify a chart.

Rectification is most commonly used when there is no known birth time.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewto...46af58474aed1a

Dirius, see what you make of that thread at Skyscript.

As a traditional astrologer, you either are or would want to be familiar with the work of Benjamin Dykes. You can see his chart rectification services here, http://www.skyscript.co.uk/tradrect.html based upon medieval methods.
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Unread 08-29-2015, 10:16 PM
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Re: What Pluto Giveth Pluto Taketh Away

I might add that Dykes http://www.skyscript.co.uk/tradrect.html begins by asking for the same types of information that a modern astrologer would use.

In modern astrology house cusps are used a lot for timing life events, and Placidus or Koch seem to be the most time-sensitive systems.

I will say that rectification is advanced astrology. And that unique_astrology works at an advanced level.

I have tried my hand at chart rectification and it is a difficult process, unless you've got some software to help you out. But either way, you should go back and double-check the time with additional life events.
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Unread 08-29-2015, 10:40 PM
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Re: What Pluto Giveth Pluto Taketh Away

The very own link to the skyscript discussion states the the user of "Polaris" software was given a time-frame to work with in his examples.

He also advises to use a lot of events in the individual's life (around 5).

His main example:

Quote:
I had a client who wasn't sure of her birthtime and she had given me a time-window between 10:30 am and 12:30 pm. When I did the rectification, I automatically extended the search range a bit to make sure that all borderline times were found.
The question about unique_astrology's "speculative" chart was if there is a time frame related for such rectification, or rather no actual time frame to deal with.

As your own skyscript link prooves, you need information on the circumstances surrounding the day of birth. You can't do blind ascendant searching without knowing a time frame for the supposed time of birth, cause that is just guessing.

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Originally Posted by ashriia View Post
Rectifying a chart, is *Not* having the time of birth and using major events in one's life, to pinpoint the time of birth. Which obviously takes considerable time and a very skilled astrologer. That has always been my understanding of it.
Rectification is done with an estimated time of birth, to turn it into the real time of birth. Like someone saying "I was born in the evening, between 9 or 10", and doing the rectification method to find he/she was born around 9:22 pm.

It is not about blind Ascendant finding.

There is no estimated or actual time record for the birth of Jared Fogle in any available online astro-data banks.

That is the reason for my original question.
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Last edited by Dirius; 08-29-2015 at 10:54 PM.
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Unread 08-30-2015, 04:56 AM
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Re: What Pluto Giveth Pluto Taketh Away

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
The very own link to the skyscript discussion states the the user of "Polaris" software was given a time-frame to work with in his examples.

He also advises to use a lot of events in the individual's life (around 5).

His main example:

The question about unique_astrology's "speculative" chart was if there is a time frame related for such rectification, or rather no actual time frame to deal with.

As your own skyscript link prooves, you need information on the circumstances surrounding the day of birth. You can't do blind ascendant searching without knowing a time frame for the supposed time of birth, cause that is just guessing.
Dirius, this is a misreading of the Skyscript thread, with posts by people in the astrology software business. Obviously it is most helpful if you have an approximate birth time to work with, but you should be able to rectify a chart without it, so long as you have sufficient key dates to work with.

Your statement "blind ascendant searching" suggests that you don't know how rectification is done. There are different methods. Many involve looking at when a planet changes houses, according to the nature of the planet and house. Is "blind ascendant searching" what you imagine a well-respected traditional astrologer like Benjamin Dykes engages in, when he offers rectification services to clients?

Rectification is very different than erecting a natal chart where the birth time is known, and the MC and ascendant are the first points to be calculated.

Do you think 5 events is too many to ask of a client? The professionals who work with rectification don't seem to think so.

Frankly, Dirius, do you even understand the methods that unique_astrology uses? Maybe he will explain them in more detail, if not.

Quote:
Rectification is done with an estimated time of birth, to turn it into the real time of birth. Like someone saying "I was born in the evening, between 9 or 10", and doing the rectification method to find he/she was born around 9:22 pm.
Again, this is a great help, if you've got it, but it isn't essential, provided you have enough solid life event dates.

Quote:
It is not about blind Ascendant finding.
No, of course not; but that you should even confuse rectification methods with "blind ascendant finding" shows that you don't understand the methods.

You can rectify a chart using whole signs (which you prefer??) but other house cusp systems are far more sensitive to timing.

Quote:
There is no estimated or actual time record for the birth of Jared Fogle in any available online astro-data banks.

That is the reason for my original question.
Right. If there were a good birth time, rectification would be unnecessary.

You'll find some books on rectification here: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...tion+astrology
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Unread 08-30-2015, 05:04 AM
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Re: What Pluto Giveth Pluto Taketh Away

No you can't waybread.

In order to do a rectification based on directions to life events, you need a rather accurate Ascendant, Mc and Moon position close to the degree position of the actual chart. So an estimated time is needed.

When using directions, if there is a difference of just a few hours, or even minutes, the degrees of these 3 points can highly change -- its called "rectification" for a reason, to make the chart more suitable to its original hour.

And so far from the link of Benjamin Dykes he never mentions anything about unkown birth time. He rather expresses that if you are too unsure of your moment of birth, you need rectification. Never in that link states that he can do it without any type of estimated birth time.
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Unread 08-30-2015, 05:31 AM
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Re: What Pluto Giveth Pluto Taketh Away

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

In modern astrology house cusps are used a lot for timing life events, and Placidus or Koch seem to be the most time-sensitive systems.

I will say that rectification is advanced astrology. And that unique_astrology works at an advanced level.
I guess you'd have to be working at an advanced level to rectify a chart using one event in the life of a person otherwise unknown to you.

So...if you put Pluto on the ascendant, it must be true, case closed?

If one of us 'not so bright' trads tried something like this, you'd be screaming blue murder about astrological truth claims not holding up.

I wouldn't accept a chart like this from - me. Or Dirius. Or JupiterASC. Or Kai. Nor would you.

So much for the evaluation of evidence.
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Unread 08-30-2015, 06:32 AM
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Re: What Pluto Giveth Pluto Taketh Away

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
No you can't waybread.

In order to do a rectification based on directions to life events, you need a rather accurate Ascendant, Mc and Moon position close to the degree position of the actual chart. So an estimated time is needed.

When using directions, if there is a difference of just a few hours, or even minutes, the degrees of these 3 points can highly change -- its called "rectification" for a reason, to make the chart more suitable to its original hour.

And so far from the link of Benjamin Dykes he never mentions anything about unkown birth time. He rather expresses that if you are too unsure of your moment of birth, you need rectification. Never in that link states that he can do it without any type of estimated birth time.
Dirius, you are incorrect. I am sorry that you are so definite yet so uninformed. Yes, if you have information with a near-birth time, that is extremely helpful in rectification. But if you've got an accurate birth time you don't need to rectify a chart.

How do you read this statement?
"Any accurate interpretation of your horoscope depends upon knowledge of an exact time of birth. If you do not know your time of birth within at least 15-20 minutes, your chart must be rectified." http://www.skyscript.co.uk/tradrect.html

Here is Steven Forrest's advice on chart rectification:
http://www.forrestastrology.com/reso...-rectification

I could go on and on with similar examples. Unless you've got some really good software, rectification is a time-consuming process, and it requires a lot of knowledge of predictive techniques.

It suddenly occurred to me that perhaps you mean something different by "rectification" than estimating a correct birth time based upon predictive methods used in reverse.
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Unread 08-30-2015, 06:35 AM
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Re: What Pluto Giveth Pluto Taketh Away

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Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
I guess you'd have to be working at an advanced level to rectify a chart using one event in the life of a person otherwise unknown to you.

So...if you put Pluto on the ascendant, it must be true, case closed?

If one of us 'not so bright' trads tried something like this, you'd be screaming blue murder about astrological truth claims not holding up.

I wouldn't accept a chart like this from - me. Or Dirius. Or JupiterASC. Or Kai. Nor would you.

So much for the evaluation of evidence.
Oddity, are you familiar with unique_astrology and his mastery of techniques? I've seen him do a lot of good work here and at Astrodienst. I hope he will return and explain his methods in more detail.

Are you aware that during the Middle Ages and Renaissance, astrologers often "rectified" a chart merely on the basis of the client's personal appearance? Someone with red hair would be assigned Mars in the first house or Aries rising, for example. I believe it was Lilly who tried to improve on this method by looking for the position of facial moles, scars, and the like.

The rest of your post is intended to be inflammatory, so I'll leave it at that.
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Unread 08-30-2015, 07:05 AM
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Re: What Pluto Giveth Pluto Taketh Away

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
How do you read this statement?
"Any accurate interpretation of your horoscope depends upon knowledge of an exact time of birth. If you do not know your time of birth within at least 15-20 minutes, your chart must be rectified." http://www.skyscript.co.uk/tradrect.html

Here is Steven Forrest's advice on chart rectification:
http://www.forrestastrology.com/reso...-rectification

It suddenly occurred to me that perhaps you mean something different by "rectification" than estimating a correct birth time based upon predictive methods used in reverse.
How would I read that statement??:

Lets see if he is saying the person doesn't know the exact time of birth, but does have an estimated (he mentiones a 10-20 minute difference), then the chart needs rectification.

No where at all he is saying that if your time of birth is completly unkown, he can get it.
------

The first line of that link you provided says:

PLEASE NOTE: STEVEN NO LONGER DOES RECTIFICATIONS.

I wonder why....

Perhap sbecause in his method, he avoids using the Moon (a key important planet), and gives preference to "slower" planets like Mars, that do not hold such significance

------

As I said, it can't be done.

I'm not questioning unique_astrology's abilities, I just made a fair question regarding the chart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Are you aware that during the Middle Ages and Renaissance, astrologers often "rectified" a chart merely on the basis of the client's personal appearance? Someone with red hair would be assigned Mars in the first house or Aries rising, for example. I believe it was Lilly who tried to improve on this method by looking for the position of facial moles, scars, and the like.
Lilly's own words are that the best method of chart rectification is by accidents.

Anyone who read CA would know this because its literally in the first few pages, when he explains how to set up a chart, and then on the rectification chapter itself.

The thing about "red hair, aries rising, moles, etc.", is for horary, to get some sort of description on the querent or quesited.
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Unread 08-30-2015, 07:05 AM
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Re: What Pluto Giveth Pluto Taketh Away

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Are you aware that during the Middle Ages and Renaissance, astrologers often "rectified" a chart merely on the basis of the client's personal appearance? Someone with red hair would be assigned Mars in the first house or Aries rising, for example. I believe it was Lilly who tried to improve on this method by looking for the position of facial moles, scars, and the like.

The rest of your post is intended to be inflammatory, so I'll leave it at that.
Are you aware that this isn't the case? I reckon you must be, if you've read the books you claim to have read.

Lilly used marks, scars, moles, and birthmarks to convince people of the veracity of their horary charts. Insofar as I am aware, he did not use this technique to rectify birth charts, though I do believe he mentioned, as many have, that Mars on the ascendant in a natal chart would indicate some injury about the neck or head likely to leave a scar.

Samuel Pepys wrote about an evening with Lilly, his feeling was that the whole thing was a con-game. There, I've given you more evidence for your debunking arsenal.

Back around 1100, ibn Ezra wrote why it was a spectacularly bad idea to assume that Mars on the ascendant would lead to red hair and similar, but you've read him, you know this.

I'm sure there were a few astrologers and street practitioners who were doing this routinely, and making up charts, just like some moderns do. But you're really over-generalising here.
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Unread 08-30-2015, 11:01 PM
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Re: What is chart rectification?

I got bumped over here from unique_astrology's thread "What Pluto Giveth Pluto Taketh Away."

I'd like to clarify some things about rectification practice, since I do this as the largest share of my astrology practice. Rectification covers every attempt to correct a radix Asc considered inaccurate, or to clarify one that is believed close to accurate, or to further specify a correct Asc using a given time range.

While I have enthusiasm and determination to serve my clients best I can, there is a certain real dread of the 24-hour rectification that many of us can have. So the way we work around that is to get the client to get as much done on their end as possible to get statements from relatives who were witnesses or who could anchor a time of day in a 'string of events fashion' ... "I know I had already eaten lunch...", etc.

It is best to have some notion of the general time of day to work with. But that does not mean a skilled, observant, patient rectifier cannot arrive at a correct chart with no time-related anchors at all. The best chances of success with this come when the rectifier knows the person and is well familiar with them. It is far less likely when dealing with public figures -- but it can be done IF all relevant information is taken into account, such as the person's physical features, demeanor/manner on record in film, etc.

Just because a person gives a "time of birth" does not mean the matter is settled. Let's look at what "time of birth" means in reality. It is a piece of datum on a state issued or medical certificate, and is the least important datum to the recorders of that document. It is the only datum that has no relevance whatsoever to the person's legal status, Social Security processing, etc. There is no common motivation whatsoever for making certain that this datum is always recorded, and recorded accurately.

I have clients who possess their official state issued birth documents that contain a time, but which disagrees with what numerous relatives say who witnessed the birth. Sometimes the difference is in hours. This is an example that tests an astrologer's confidence in their astrological literacy and fluency. Do you simply take the supposed fact recorded on the document, pretending it is impossible for government bureaucrats or medical workers to make a mistake? Or do you believe the people who were there and can actually set a time range?

Sometimes there is no help at all for time info. This is when we go purely astrological. This is an even greater test of the astrologer's astrological literacy and fluency of both planets and signs.

Astrological fluency means working knowledge of the full sky. One cannot achieve complete fluency unless working with declinations and including them in rectification efforts. Small errors and large ones are most commonly from using only flat wheel longitude astrology and failing to consider the declinations. Yet there is a learning curve for including declinations in such complex work that many are loathe to undertake.

That is my first reference point: the movement of the sky in real 3D terms; not traditional methodologies or rules; not more modern methods that have been published by popular astrologers. So I just don't participate in debate along the lines of 'modern vs traditional' rectification approaches, because it is irrelevant to me.

I don't know what unique_astrology considers in arriving at a 'speculative' chart, as with Fogle. He seems to enjoy the more technical parts and I'd like to see him explain more fully his approach regarding what points him to a particular Asc sign/degree. (I'm thinking in tropical zodiac terms here).

You need more than mere life events to do 24-hour rectifications, or any rectification for that matter. I always need life events, but those alone amount to almost nothing without a well-focused, solid picture of the person as a human being. There can be clues in what a person says they've been going through, and members of this forum can see where I have speculated in such a manner here. But that does not amount to a final rectification in any way.

One of the main reasons that some astrologers have given up rectification is it can be grueling, and incredibly time consuming. Most astrologers who make their living doing astrology do not like to do it, and never develop the fluency needed to consistently perform rectification work accurately or speed up the process. Often they will use gimmicks, angles, or tricks to adjust the chart or point to an Asc based on a time range given to them, or purposely exclude certain factors in the attempt to narrow the information stream they want to consider. That is not the best approach. The best approach is to increase brain power and organization methodologies.

I use all planets in longitude and declination to find the correct Asc. I use the word "correct" here with the understanding that this term is ordinarily used for matters of 'fact' not subtle, subjective spheres of circumstantial evidence as happens in astrology. And I have fixed standards for determining the validity of a chart rectification:
https://kannonmcafee.wordpress.com/c...ion-standards/

All this can be learned by being patient, very determined, aware you will make mistakes and that those are your greatest learning opportunities to increase your skill; by using reference materials like The Rulership Book (Rex Bills), and by understanding how to sift out what in any chart situation is superfluous information. This is a skill that requires both logic and intuition to be active and in balance.

As to the example of Mars and red hair more recently in this thread, I have a reaheaded client for whom I did a rectification in 2000 based on time info she had then, which was around 10 AM or so (from father years previous). It led me to Libra rising with Mars conjunct Asc. At that time I did not know how to properly integrate declinations in my efforts.

About a year later she came back to me with a time from her uncle of around 1 PM, which pointed to mid-Scorpio/Neptune for the Asc. I still did not know what to do with that information, to test it properly, because I had seen events and progressed aspect/transit confirmation of the mid-Libra Asc conjuct Mars. So I negated that info, choosing to believe her father over her uncle, and choosing to take the chart as confirmed enough.

A consult with this client last year allowed me to put my improved rectification skills to work which included declinations. In testing the mid-Libra/Mars chart, it failed immediately. (This is where the validation standards come into play). I then had to advance the chart time-wise to an early Scorpio Asc (contra-parallel Sun in early Virgo), which not only proved to have very tight connection to specific points in her loved one's charts, but was qualified according to my Chart Validation Standards.

That obviously removed Mars from the area of her Asc, putting it in the 12th house. But what remained was the Moon Parallel Mars aspect that had been there all along in declination. Moon/Mars can be as much suspected in red hair and ruddy/freckled skin as Mars/Asc/ Such aspects can dominate in one's personality in ways that can obscure, even overshadow the Asc sign, especially when only longitude information is otherwise considered (showing up as assertiveness, quickness to anger, red/ruddy hair/complexion).

So I am affirming the redhead/ruddy connection to Mars (without stating it as absolute), while also further making my point that the declinations must be considered.
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Unread 08-30-2015, 11:08 PM
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Re: What is chart rectification?

So what is chart rectification? Every attempt, skilled or unskilled, to get to the right Asc sign and degree of the person's true birth horoscope.
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Unread 08-31-2015, 01:14 AM
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Re: What is chart rectification?

We are not discussing rectification techniques itself, I think we all know how to do that, but rather arguing if a rectification can be done without any sort of given birth time. (as you call it, 24 hour rectification).

The chart posted by unique_astrology is about a man who's birth time is completly unkown. There is no record of him on any website.

I suppose that is the reaosn it was called a "speculative" chart.
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Unread 08-31-2015, 11:02 PM
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Re: What is chart rectification?

Dirius, the title of the thread is What is chart rectification? By nature that requires some explanation or real examples for those here who are reading to learn rather than to participate in or watch an academic debate. The real fulcrum of this debate is level of astrological literacy, which forms the basis for one's confidence in the practice. Some may have confidence to make 'little' rectifications within say a 2-hour span or less. Others' confidence may stretch further.

24-hour rectifications must be done at times because there are people who want an accurate birth charts who have no time clues whatsoever. These are folks that want to know their correct rising sign, house layout, etc. Call them "speculative" if you want, but there is a difference between speculative charts for public figures the astrologer doesn't even know, and well-informed 24-hour rectification work in which the astrologer has direct contact with the person in question.

If you don't believe they can be done, then don't do them.

What you seem to be ignoring is that some notions of birth time for a given person can be wrong. An astrologer engaging in rectification work has to possess the knowledge to be able to determine if they have been given wrong birth time info. This may mean even time clues or 'certified' birth times may have to be thrown out once tested.

If you can't, then don't. But you might be able to learn something from those who can.
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Unread 08-31-2015, 11:43 PM
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Re: What is chart rectification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kannon View Post

Dirius, the title of the thread is What is chart rectification?
That's easily answered
i.e.
chart rectification is an ancient technique devised approximately two thousand years ago
chronicled by VETTIUS VALENS in the ANTHOLOGY
using methodologies devised by his predecessors of at least three hundred years
http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf

chart rectification uses astrological methods to ascertain the accuracy of a given date of birth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kannon View Post

By nature that requires some explanation or real examples for those here who are reading to learn rather than to participate in or watch an academic debate.
Actually if anyone wants an explanation there are plenty of books and discussion on the subject
for example

Animodar method of rectification
interesting discussion entitled "Rectification by Trutine of Hermes/Animodar"
at http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=822

THE PRE-NATAL EPOCH by E H Bailey http://www.amazon.com/The-Prenatal-E.../dp/1933303247

detailed instructions
on precisely how to calculate the pre-natal Epoch Rectification Method
may be viewed FOR FREE at
http://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/pamen034.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kannon View Post
[Deleted attacking comment - Moderator]

24-hour rectifications must be done at times because there are people who want an accurate birth charts who have no time clues whatsoever.
These are folks that want to know their correct rising sign, house layout, etc.
Call them "speculative" if you want,
but there is a difference between speculative charts for public figures the astrologer doesn't even know,
and well-informed 24-hour rectification work in which the astrologer has direct contact with the person in question.

If you don't believe they can be done, then don't do them.

What you seem to be ignoring is that some notions of birth time for a given person can be wrong.
An astrologer engaging in rectification work has to possess the knowledge to be able to determine if they have been given wrong birth time info.
This may mean even time clues or 'certified' birth times may have to be thrown out once tested.


If you can't, then don't. But you might be able to learn something from those who can.
There are many methods of chart rectification and the technique you use is INCARN by John Willner
as mentioned by you on this previous post
however
The John Willner method is controversial

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kannon View Post

Rebel Uranian, I take your statement as a challenge, and accept it.

socrates, I know that this is taking the thread a bit off its original asc/mask theme, but since it is very relevant to the Asc and how we pinpoint a live one, I'm going into it.

First, it is very important to record the time of your birth, as your father did, but this time rarely equates to the correct degree of the Asc.
The event we call birth, parturition (separation from the mother), gives only a starting place for finding out the correct Asc.
First breath and parturition theories are just that - common sense theories that astrologers have accepted on faith and have defended without first putting to a real test.
I have. I also have developed an alternate theory drawing from outside astrology to explain it.
Most important to know is that our "births" are not actually pinpointed by exoteric events of the mother's body (parturition),
though they are always in partnership with them.
It is the moment of Incarnation, an inter-dimensional event, that sets the correct Asc.
Two independent sources (Edgar Cayce readings on astrology) and Incarn astrologer John Willner create the framework for this.

SPIRITUAL BIRTHTIMES - THE PERFECT HOROSCOPE by John Willner http://www.amazon.com/The-Perfect-Ho.../dp/1931044066


[Deleted attacking comment - Moderator]
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Unread 09-01-2015, 01:10 AM
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Re: What is chart rectification?

You'll notice that my rather long previous post included an example of rectification work outlining principles that could be applied by an astrologer from any tradition or school of thought. I have not engaged in debating modern vs traditional. Nor did I come here to attempt a take-down or criticism of anyone else's work. I did make the assumption this would be a serious discussion rather than another argument, especially of traditionals vs moderns.

I'm doing the work. I just don't have time for petty debates anymore.

But thanks for the free advertising, JUPITERASC.
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Unread 09-01-2015, 02:02 AM
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Re: What is chart rectification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kannon View Post
Dirius, the title of the thread is What is chart rectification? By nature that requires some explanation or real examples for those here who are reading to learn rather than to participate in or watch an academic debate. The real fulcrum of this debate is level of astrological literacy, which forms the basis for one's confidence in the practice. Some may have confidence to make 'little' rectifications within say a 2-hour span or less. Others' confidence may stretch further.

24-hour rectifications must be done at times because there are people who want an accurate birth charts who have no time clues whatsoever. These are folks that want to know their correct rising sign, house layout, etc. Call them "speculative" if you want, but there is a difference between speculative charts for public figures the astrologer doesn't even know, and well-informed 24-hour rectification work in which the astrologer has direct contact with the person in question.

If you don't believe they can be done, then don't do them.

What you seem to be ignoring is that some notions of birth time for a given person can be wrong. An astrologer engaging in rectification work has to possess the knowledge to be able to determine if they have been given wrong birth time info. This may mean even time clues or 'certified' birth times may have to be thrown out once tested.

If you can't, then don't. But you might be able to learn something from those who can.
The title isn't exactly accurate to what we were discussing originally. Remember it was written by an admin who transfered the posts from another topic.
---------------------

1)- Most methods known would render this imposible, being something doing with directions, transits, progressions or conception charts.

a) The whole basics of rectifications based on directions, progressions or transits, is to render the most likely aspects and adjust them to match important events on the life of the querent.

b) Conception charts, the more traditional method, require knowledge of the Moon's position regarding the Sun, and if it was a day or night birth.

What is the problem then?

When you have a time frame to work with, you usually end up with a few signs in which the Ascendant may be (2 or 3 usually), and it is easy to pin aspects ocurring in those 3 signs to the planets signifying the life events. Usually this will happen only once in the course of those 3 signs (for example, the directed ascendant may aspect venus just once or twice).

But, with a 24-hour chart, the signifiers will aspect the promising planets multiple times. Therefore its rather imposible to testify which aspect is the correct one.

2)-
As you mention, you require life events or data on an individual. The person whose chart we were discussing, has very little data available from him.

-------------

PS: this isn't "trad vs mod" as discussion as usual, lets not turn it into that; I say this in case anyone wants to put examples with outer planets, I'll be fine with those.
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Unread 09-05-2015, 07:12 AM
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Re: What is chart rectification?

Kannon, thanks. It's good to read the voice of experience.

A quick perusal of "rectification astrology" at amazon.com reveals half a dozen books currently in print, plus more available through used book sellers.

The idea that a chart can be rectified only if a time close to the birth time is known just doesn't hold up. Part of the reason is because many rectification methods are based upon the timing of events as they relate to the affairs of a particular house. Important events like the birth of a child, a career change, or serious illness relate to the 5th, 10th, and 6th houses respectively (unless one wishes to get further refinement, drawing upon medical astrology for the latter.)

Then once a working model of the chart is cast, one can add in additional events, to see if they validate the model or argue for further refinement.

To do this well is tremendously time-consuming, and depends upon the chart native having pretty good recall of dates. If an astrologer of Steven Forrest's stature no longer does chart rectification, the time requirement may well be the main reason. He is a popular speaker at astrological conferences, teacher, and author.

The problem of rectification reminds me of this article by Michael Munkasey http://www.scribd.com/doc/6495552/An...rmulary#scribd in which he says that the "best" house system is the one that most accurately describes the topic in question. If the topic is best described by an 8th house moon, we don't use a system that puts the moon in the 7th or the 9th house.

This is why many horary astrologers prefer Regiomontanus houses, because they feel they give the best results; whereas those who explain mundane events or rectify charts are likely to prefer Placidus, because it seems to be the most time-sensitive of the house systems.

As Kannon noted, the astrologer further needs to know multiple predictive/post-dictive techniques: transits, progressions, solar arcs, profections, primary directions, and so on.

I have a copy of Laurie Efrein, How to Rectify a Birth Chart. (1987) She used a detailed worksheet and some basic principles to simplify the process of timing events. Like Kannon, she stresses the desirability of getting to know the native personally, to best detect the "me" in the chart. The "me" might be where the native most strongly expresses her personality, or it might be her personal appearance.

Given what we know about genetics (family inheritance) we may tread carefully around the former belief in red-headed Aries risings (possible only if genes permit,) and would look for behaviour and mannerisms as pointing to a likely first house.

My personal feeling is that if we can't nail down the birth time within a few minutes, we're best off using whole signs for natal chart interpretation. It lacks the sensitivity of Placidus, but then Placidus in a natal chart may give an impression of accuracy that doesn't pertain.
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Unread 09-05-2015, 10:37 AM
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Re: What is chart rectification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

A quick perusal of "rectification astrology" at amazon.com reveals half a dozen books currently in print, plus more available through used book sellers.

The idea that a chart can be rectified only if a time close to the birth time is known just doesn't hold up. Part of the reason is because many rectification methods are based upon the timing of events as they relate to the affairs of a particular house. Important events like the birth of a child, a career change, or serious illness relate to the 5th, 10th, and 6th houses respectively (unless one wishes to get further refinement, drawing upon medical astrology for the latter.)

Then once a working model of the chart is cast, one can add in additional events, to see if they validate the model or argue for further refinement.
You could match events from the life of an individual to a certain "random" Ascendant. But in the same chart, you can try another Ascendant position and do the same. And another. And another. And so on.

Most likely, you can find 4 or 5 possible Ascendant positions in different signs whose directions or planetary positions are suitable for 80%-90% of the events tested.

As you mention, many events in the natives life relate to house position. Without a certifiable time frame to work with, many different similar events can be drawn from different signs or planetary position.

A few examples of problems with this method:

  • a) Because of aspects relating to (for example) Venus, we could assume certain things about a specific house, like a "Taurus as the 10th house", however the same conclusions could be drawn from Libra, given the connection between both signs through their ruler.
  • b) Similar planetary positions or aspects could indicate similar things, thus rendering them as viable options to represent the same house. For example: Mars in Cancer in the 5th house, or Mercury in Pisces in the 5th house.
  • c) Having a vast time difference (24 hrs) affects the position of the fastest planets: Moon mainly, along with Venus and Mercury (who can move around 2 degrees at top speed). The planetary position of Mercury at 2:00 am, will not be the same as the one at 23:00 hs. This is far more noticeable with the Moon, who may travel like 13 degrees.
  • d) You can't direct the Asc or Mc, which are both very important for directions. House cusps by themselves become very unreliable as significators to match events.
  • e) Different directions to similar planets can indicate similar things: Directions to Moon or Venus could indicate both an event relating to a mother/sister/daughter, so the same conclusions can be drawn from those planets, but without a day-time indication or a house rulership, its almost imposible to distinguish which one is better suited.
  • f) Different signs have similar qualities that can explain a person through personality and looks, like Virgo and Capricorn ascendants on personality, which are very similar. The differences are minor. The physical description through sign is usually never realistic, given that planets also affect the ascendant ruler directly by aspect.
The end-story is we can always find some planetary position/quality/aspect to match certain events, but you can't even be 50% sure you have the correct thing. There always needs to be some info about the circumstances of birth, otherwise it is impossible.
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Last edited by Dirius; 09-05-2015 at 12:03 PM.
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Unread 09-05-2015, 12:06 PM
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Re: What is chart rectification?

It's not an exact science, so to speak. But I've seen examples done that correlate well with recorded birth times, and all of the physical/personality ascendant traits.

I've been trying this on myself, and yes it is a very timely process. However, it's rewarding, and frankly something everybody needs to do/know to ever get a truly accurate reading in any astrological area.

To say it's bunk is not true, as per my first paragraph, though I think there always is an excepted margin of error. I'd take a rectified chart within 3, 4, or even 5 degrees out, since this wouldn't terribly alter orbs or house placements.
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Unread 09-05-2015, 12:09 PM
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Re: What is chart rectification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kannon View Post
Dirius, the title of the thread is What is chart rectification? By nature that requires some explanation or real examples for those here who are reading to learn rather than to participate in or watch an academic debate. The real fulcrum of this debate is level of astrological literacy, which forms the basis for one's confidence in the practice. Some may have confidence to make 'little' rectifications within say a 2-hour span or less. Others' confidence may stretch further.

24-hour rectifications must be done at times because there are people who want an accurate birth charts who have no time clues whatsoever. These are folks that want to know their correct rising sign, house layout, etc. Call them "speculative" if you want, but there is a difference between speculative charts for public figures the astrologer doesn't even know, and well-informed 24-hour rectification work in which the astrologer has direct contact with the person in question.

If you don't believe they can be done, then don't do them.

What you seem to be ignoring is that some notions of birth time for a given person can be wrong. An astrologer engaging in rectification work has to possess the knowledge to be able to determine if they have been given wrong birth time info. This may mean even time clues or 'certified' birth times may have to be thrown out once tested.

If you can't, then don't. But you might be able to learn something from those who can.
That's my experience as well. It's not that difficult to get the correct rising sign of someone you know a little.
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Unread 09-05-2015, 12:44 PM
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Re: What is chart rectification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ukdesifem View Post

It's not an exact science, so to speak.
But I've seen examples done that correlate well with recorded birth times, and all of the physical/personality ascendant traits.

I've been trying this on myself, and yes it is a very timely process.
However, it's rewarding, and frankly something everybody needs to do/know to ever get a truly accurate reading in any astrological area.

To say it's bunk is not true, as per my first paragraph, though I think there always is an excepted margin of error.
I'd take a rectified chart within 3, 4, or even 5 degrees out, since this wouldn't terribly alter orbs or house placements.
Multiple ancient sources are in agreement with you
and there's a long thread discussion on the topic
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=51626
Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post

That's my experience as well.
It's not that difficult to get the correct rising sign of someone you know a little.
You highlight the importance
of at least being - to some extent - familiar with the individual whose chart is being rectified
but if the person is unknown to the astrologer
and the astrologer has no known time of birth
and there are few if any reliable details of important life events

then any rectification becomes dubious

It's also not that difficult
to get the rising sign of someone you know a little
completely wrong
not to mention the fact that
astrologers often disagree regarding their rectifications
HENCE such topics as USA CHART - THE ULTIMATE DEBATE
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=947&highlight=ultimate
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