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  #1  
Unread 02-12-2007, 05:13 AM
Yoi Yoi is offline
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Charisma

What do people think are the best indicators (signs, aspects, houses, etc.) of charisma? Basically people who are charming, magnetic, able to persuade other people to do things etc.

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Unread 02-12-2007, 05:29 AM
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Re: Charisma

For charm:

Venusian influences, taurus or libra sun or asc sign traditionally. Venus in Aquarius generally magnetic people, has been called the sign of the movie star for venus (also sometimes sun/asc Aquarius). Positive aspects between Venus, Moon, and Jupiter (especially venus to moon) Sun conjunct Venus. Umm... the ruler of the 5th in the first house, alot of fire and planets at the top of the chart also Grand Trines/Star of David... all i can think of right now for charm.

For being persuasive depends on if you go for emotions or logic. Generally a well aspected mercury helps to be convincing logically.
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Unread 02-12-2007, 08:36 PM
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Re: Charisma

I agree with what Pisceanfool said.Venus definitly plays an important role here:a well aspected Venus gives people the ability to charm others.Venus aspects to the ascendant are also helpful,giving the ability to turn on the charm when needed.Venus aspects to the Moon are also helpful,particularly the conjunction(I know a guy with Moon conjunct Venus in Pisces,Aquarius Sun.No one can say no to him lol).Libra rising as well,but I disagree with the Taurus rising.

Scorpio and Pluto give lots of magnetism,altough that ability to intrigue others can also go the other way: people with proeminent Scorpio/Pluto in their charts can be masters at manipulating people.And a well aspected Mercury is always helpful,of course.Maybe Mercury aspects to Pluto give the power to persuade others?
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Unread 02-12-2007, 10:28 PM
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Re: Charisma

hi,

I think İt is pluto which gives the charisma. magnetism is an issue of scorpio. and a strong venus is cute but when we are talking about attractiveness it's exactly a venus with a pluto aspect or venus in taurus, libra and scorpio...
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Unread 02-13-2007, 12:12 AM
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Re: Charisma

I agree it is probably Venus for charisma. My partner has Venus in Libra (charming) which conjuncts Pluto in the 3rd. He used to be a cars salesman, you need some charisma and charm and a way with words to sell cars. I think this gives him a talent of being charmingly persuasive. His bank balance depended on it.
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Unread 02-13-2007, 02:12 PM
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Re: Charisma

Venus and Pluto...interesting. I have Venus in the 8th house. How is this different/similar to a Venus-Pluto connection? It's pretty well aspected: trines with Mars, Jupiter and Chiron though semisquare Mercury and Uranus.

As for Mercury and Scorpio. I have Mercury conjunct Uranus in Scorpio. Persuasive argument and debating have always been one of my strengths (Gemini rising helps here too I guess) so I have to agree with this.

People have mentioned three connections with Venus: Venus-Pluto, Venus-Libra, Venus-Moon. The energies involved are very different so the types of charisma involved should be very different. That is three different "types" of charisma here. Also what effect would house placement and aspects have?

Last edited by Yoi; 02-13-2007 at 02:14 PM.
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Unread 02-13-2007, 08:50 PM
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Re: Charisma

Venus in the 10th house has potential if other aspects give her the insight - she works hard to look good
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Unread 02-13-2007, 10:55 PM
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Re: Charisma

hi yoi,

venus in the 8 th house gives charisma, but it also gives the feeling of jealousy or the feeling to use others' posessions. the charisma gives you to have others' belongings and with goods aspects such as;
venus with a good aspect to jupiter you also have goodwill and trine to mars have the energy to show your good will, you can have what you want when you want...
as mars venus trine gives an extra atrativeness, people must find you so cute that they let you have them so you got what you want easily.
and that is charisma

Last edited by utopia; 02-13-2007 at 10:59 PM.
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Unread 02-14-2007, 07:35 AM
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Re: Charisma

Leo can be quite charismatic too imo, if they focus on their sunny, upbright nature and forget their egocentrical tendencies...
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Unread 02-14-2007, 08:25 PM
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Re: Charisma

Some comments on the two people I personally know who have much charisma:

My youngest daughter has a Leo sun in the 5th house. I don't know if her other placements contribute to this, but I attribute her glowing charisma to this. She also has Mars and Venus in Leo. She has had a special aura about her since she was a baby and finds favor with people everywhere she goes. It's like everyone adores her.

The other person I knew who had a lot of personal charisma was a male born 10-24-60 in New York, Ny. His Sun was in the Via Combust. ( I think.) He also had Pluto in the first, and I think conjunct his AC. He was very charming and had much power of persuasion. I'm sure there were other factors in his chart besides the Pluto. He had a very powerful personality - was an evangelist. Boy! Could he influence the crowds! But I knew him personally, and he had a mix of good and deceptive charisma.
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Unread 02-14-2007, 09:47 PM
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Re: Charisma

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoi
What do people think are the best indicators (signs, aspects, houses, etc.) of charisma? Basically people who are charming, magnetic, able to persuade other people to do things etc.

Libar rising, sun or venus in first house, especially conjunct ascendant can be known for charm

Jupiter in first on the ascendant ca be charming as well.
Taurus is known for charm

Bill Clinton first house Libra is loaded with planets
Leo, Aries, Cancer, are other ascendants to look for her especially if Venus or the sun in first.
Or a good fifth house as well.
There can be a lot of indicators charisma.

Number one to me would be Libra risng,
First house or ascendant conjunct Venus,sun.

Kim Falconer states some asteroids on her site considered to be magnetic.
Also, venus conjunct natal sun has a certain charm or appeal, no matter what house.
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Unread 02-14-2007, 09:59 PM
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Re: Charisma

dear Simplyred,

I really appriciate your last post. I feel better now, I must be quite charming according to your post.(cause I feel a little bit odd staying at home in front of the comp.in such a day like valentines day)
thanks
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Unread 02-14-2007, 10:24 PM
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Re: Charisma

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyRed
Kim Falconer states some asteroids on her site considered to be magnetic.
Also, venus conjunct natal sun has a certain charm or appeal, no matter what house.
The asteroids i use the most are Eros & Juno...
Them being strong placed or one of them could create charm...
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Unread 02-26-2007, 05:00 PM
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Re: Charisma

Taurus rising, Libra rising(maybe), something neptunian: Sun conjuncts Neptune. Eight house(scorpio) influence. a lot of water in the chart. Scorpio venus for men and Taurus/Libra venus for women. Scorpio Mars for men and Libra/gemini mars for women. venus in 7th house
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Unread 02-28-2007, 02:08 AM
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Re: Charisma

Magi astrologers have a few aspects about sexual appeal, charisma.

I do not know much about their astrology except Chiron and Juno are used a lot. Chiron especially
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Unread 02-28-2007, 07:43 AM
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Re: Charisma

What I have been reading on this post with all the Venus reference is making me wonder if maybe I have a different definitions for the word charisma.

Charisma is a Greek word with roughly the meaning being a divine offering or gift. Charismatic people have magnetic personalitys, they are strong, controlled, and usually gifted when it comes to communication. They involke stong feels of either admiration or disgust in different individuals. These people are serious charmers with a strong sense of pursuesiveness. Many Charismatics are found to have psychotic disorders. Others include politicians, actors, and evangelicals. These personalities also have dark shadow sides that are not usually seen in public. Therefore my guess (and some personal experience) is you will find hard aspects to the Luminaries... squares, oppositions....etc... and/or to the MC and Asc.

Now for all the Venus reference, I am thinking this is more an irrisistable force filled with charm and grace.

My 2 cents

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Unread 03-27-2007, 11:42 AM
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Re: Charisma

Interesting topic. Interesting Wintersprite about looking up the definition. Off hand any aspect with an outer planet can be charismatic.

Pluto in any aspect - depth, control and mystery.
Neptune - evasive, fantasy and depth.
Uranus - communication, evasive and illuminating.

Just briefly thinking about the subject, I know people who have sun conjunct pluto in Leo. I find them very charismatic. Controlled, unpenetratable, magnetic. Too strong tho for me to get close. HUGE ego's comes with the territory too. Just a thought before work! Blessings, tb
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Unread 03-27-2007, 02:40 PM
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Re: Charisma

The most charismatic person I have met so far (now deceased) has a stellium of 7 planets in libra, from H9 across MC into H10. These trine his aquarian ascendant. Sun cj Neptune in that stellium. he was a total dream boat- witty, handsome (all heads turned when he entered a room) and charming to an incredible degree- beloved by men and women alike. He died from AIDS contracted in a gay love-in....There are 10 trines in his chart, and as someone said a number of squares and two oppositions. His stellium squared his H6 uranus (ruled by moon), H7 pluto receiving only good aspects.
He exuded confidence and won favour with his superiors easily, thus causing rancour with some workmates. He had friends from every sphere of life.Material possessions came easily to him, yet even with all this going for him he died a lonely and tortured death...James Dean's chart would be interesting to look at if anyone out there has it... lillyjgc
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Unread 03-27-2007, 03:07 PM
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Re: Charisma

I understand Venusian signs are associated with a certain charm,but both my parents and one of my classmates have Taurus rising and none of them is exacly what I would call charming LOL.A happy,well-positioned Venus makes for a pleasant,diplomatic individual with good social skills,but not everyone with Venus rising or an emphasis on Venusian signs will be charming and well-liked.I was totally shocked when I discovered one of my classmates has Libra rising;he has absolutely NOTHING to do with all the descriptions I've read about his Ascendant;he looks more like a crazy scientist than a loving diplomat.What I said about my Taurus-rising parents also applies to him:he's not charming at all and doesn't have a strong impact on the opposite sex(perhaps that's because his chart ruler is in detriment,altough my dad has an exalted Venus and he's not a particularly pleasant person as well).

Like I said before,I believe Pluto plays a very important role here,since Pluto has to do with magnetism,and charisma is the ability to draw people to you like a magnet.I believe Pluto and Venus combined show charisma,perhaps with a little Mercury in the mixture to help communication,whereas Jupiter shows popularity.The Leo-Aquarius axis is usually considered quite charismatic,and Scorpios can draw lots of people because of their intriguing mysterious vibe.
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Unread 03-27-2007, 06:48 PM
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James Dean, to Lilly

Lilly,

James Dean's chart, per your request:
http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/portraits/RP7Y35x2efNU.htm

Linking,

Tim
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Unread 03-27-2007, 11:08 PM
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Re: Charisma

Several personality traits I consider magnetic, imho:

Self - control (not SENSE control). This trait drives me wild. Very, very few have it. Shows a mastery over the body. Strong mind. Strong saturn maybe?

Quietness - most charming to me. Quiet people usually (to me) are much more magnetic than bar clowns or yappers. I tend to favor earth and water signs for this trait. The eyes are usually more calm in the quiet person. I also love when a quiet person smiles.

Reserve - someone who doesn't blab about their failures and other people. Also, doesn't talk much about themselves.

When I look at the traits, how 'bout Saturn playing a role in charisma? Lots of strong religious figures/Gurus are Caps..... Blessings, tb
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Unread 03-28-2007, 07:52 AM
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Re: Charisma

Now don't take this as anything definitive, but I had a look through the astrodatabank and looked up some famous leaders who I definitely know were/are extremely charismatic, mainly because history books/news articles talk about their personal charisma all the time. The vast majority of the people in the databank are movie/pop stars so I didn't have many to work with, but I got a sample of 5: Tony Blair, the Dalai Lama, Gandhi, Hitler and Reagan. The sample is far too small to make any definite conclusions about, but I thought it would be interesting anyhow. Note I'm skipping minor aspects like the inconjunct and semi-sextile.

This idea came to me when I was casually looking at Hitler's chart and Gandhi's and I thought, hmmm, there's something similar here. So I thought I would go through and test the idea more thoroughly just in case it was a coincidence. The similarity is contact between the luminaries and Jupiter.

3 of the 5 above charismatic leaders have some contact between the Sun and Jupiter - the Dalai Lama has a trine, Hitler has a trine and Reagan has a square. For Blair, the Sun and Jupiter are in the same sign and house but you would need a 14 degree orb for a conjunction. Jupiter is however 5 degree away from Blair's Gemini ascendant.

4 out of 5 of the above charismatic leaders have a contact between the Moon and Jupiter. Once again Blair is the odd one out. The Dalai Lama has a sextile, Gandhi has a square, Hitler has a conjunction and Reagan has an opposition.

There doesn't seem to be any pattern about the sign of the ascendant.

For Venus, 4 out of 5 had Venus in front of their Sun (the exception being once again Blair). For Mercury 4 out of 5 had Mercury behind their Sun (except Gandhi this time). The only one with either Mercury or Venus retrograde is Hitler who has Venus retrograde.

In terms of aspects to Venus, there is a variety of different ones as you can imagine. However 4 out of the 5 have one particular Venus aspect in common - that is, Venus and Mars (2 conjunctions, 2 sextiles). The exception is the Dalai Lama (well good thing he is a celibate Buddhist monk...).

I checked the luminaries and Pluto since Pluto gets mentioned a lot. Unfortunately I see little sign of a Pluto influence. Only 1 out of 5 had the Sun aspecting Pluto (Blair with a square). Only Gandhi had the Moon aspecting Pluto (square). None of the group had Pluto rising. Only one had Pluto in the 1st house at all though not conjunct the ascendant or even the closest sign in the 1st house to the ascendant (the Dalai Lama) and only one had Pluto aspecting the ascendant (Reagan, square with a 4 degree orb). I don't see evidence of Pluto playing much of a role at all.

Hmmm. I guess another problem with what I'm doing here is what I am finding is not necessarily related to charisma but to other qualities that made them famous leaders but oh well.

Some information on charisma from wikipedia:

Quote:
Despite the strong emotions they so often induce in others, charismatic individuals generally project unusual calmness, confidence, assertiveness, dominance, authenticity, and focus, and almost always possess superb communication and/or oratorical skills. To the early Greeks, charisma was said to be "a divine favor/gift" or "gift of grace," implying that this 'divine quality' was an inborn trait; in modern times, however, many believe it can be taught and/or learned, despite the persistent inability to accurately define or even fully understand the concept. Others disagree with this assertion and still maintain that it is an inborn trait and that it cannot be either learned, taught, or 'gained.'
Quote:
The German sociologist Max Weber defined charismatic authority to be one of three forms of authority, the other two being traditional (feudal) authority and legal or rational authority. According to Weber, charisma is defined thus:

a certain quality of an individual personality, by virtue of which s/he is "set apart" from ordinary people and treated as endowed with supernatural, superhuman, or at least specifically exceptional powers or qualities. These as such are not accessible to the ordinary person, but are regarded as divine in origin or as exemplary, and on the basis of them the individual concerned is treated as a leader.[2]
Quote:
Charisma has also been studied as a set of behaviors/traits; for example, a modern psychological approach posits that charisma is basically aggregative, a conglomeration of distinct personality traits that meld well in certain individuals to form the broad quality known as charisma or "personal magnetism."

Theatrically, charisma can sometimes be "performed" on-stage and in films, and is encapsulated in both verbal and non-verbal communication.

Professor Richard Wiseman says that a charismatic person has three attributes:

1. they feel emotions themselves quite strongly;
2. they induce them in others;
3. and they are impervious to the influences of other charismatic people.
Oh yeah, I found some charts for some other famous leaders who were well known for being charismatic. So how do they fit in with the above stuff already observed?

Napoleon Bonaparte: http://www.kozmikhoroscopes.com/napoleon.htm

Sun squares Jupiter
Mercury behind the Sun, but Venus is also behind the sun, neither retrograde
Venus Mars sextile
no link between Pluto and luminaries or ascendant

JFK:

http://www.kozmikhoroscopes.com/kennedy.htm

Moon trine Jupiter
Mercury behind, Venus in Front, neither retrograde
no aspect between Venus and Mars (they're in the same house!)
no aspect between Pluto and the luminaries or ascendant

Martin Luther King:

http://www.kozmikhoroscopes.com/king.htm

Sun square Jupiter
Both Mercury and Venus ahead of Sun, neither retrograde
no aspect between Venus and Mars
Pluto aspects both Sun and Moon

George Washington:

http://members.tripod.com/tra_nations/1p_washington.htm

No aspect between Luminaries and Jupiter (well if you want to use a 9 degree orb you can get a Moon square Jupiter)
Venus in front of Sun and Mercury behind, neither retrograde
Venus trine Mars
Moon square Pluto

Bill Clinton

http://members.tripod.com/tra_nations/1p_clinton.htm

Sun sextile Jupiter
Mercury behind, Venus in front, neither retrograde
Mars conjunct Venus (with a 5 degree orb)
Pluto square Moon

Steve Jobs (how can I leave out the man who is described as having as having his own reality distortion field?)

http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/JobsSteve.htm

Sun SESQUIQUADRATE Jupiter (since I'm counting the sextile, I guess the semi-square and sesquiquadrate are OK too since I think they are the same strength as the sextile?)
Both Mercury and Venus behind the Sun. Mercury is retrograde.
No aspect between Venus and Mars
Pluto trine Moon

Richard Branson

http://www.kozmikhoroscopes.com/branson.htm

Moon opposes Jupiter
Mercury in front and Venus behind, neither retrograde
Venus trine Mars
No aspect between Pluto and luminaries but Pluto conjunct Asc


So out of 12 charismatic leaders, you have 10 (11 if you count Washington with the 9 degree orb) who have at least one contact between a luminary and Jupiter. 8 out of 12 with Venus in front of the Sun. 9 out of 12 with Mercury behind the Sun. There is one Mercury retrograde (Steve Jobs) and only one Venus retrograde (Hitler). 6 out of 12 have an aspect to Pluto from the luminaries (though Branson does have Pluto rising). 8 out of 12 have either a conjunction or soft aspect between Venus and Mars (no hard aspects? Why?).

The strongest signs of charismatic leadership by far seems to be at least one of the luminaries contacting Jupiter and no retrogrades in either Mercury or Venus [actually I'm not sure about this now as I've just realized that 80% of the time Mercury is direct and Venus doesn't retrograde often so it's easily possible that 11 out of 12 people in a random sample would have neither Mercury or Venus retrograde]. Signs of moderate strength seem to be Venus in front of the Sun and Mercury behind, conjunction or soft contact between Venus and Mars. Maybe Pluto contacting a luminary or Pluto rising could be considered a moderate strength indicator too.

For comparison, 8 out of 12 of the above leaders have some contact between the luminaries and Uranus (maybe that has something to do with charisma too?). 4 out of the 12 have some contact between the luminaries and Saturn. Neptune or Venus contacts to the luminaries occur about half the time or less (can't remember exactly how many) so I don't think they are that important either. So it really does seem as if contact between luminaries and Jupiter and lack of retrogrades in Mercury and Venus are important. Oh and all of them seem to have the Sun in the top half of the chart except for the Dalai Lama (1st house) and Steve Jobs (6th house).

Last edited by Yoi; 03-28-2007 at 04:30 PM.
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Unread 03-28-2007, 04:19 PM
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Re: Charisma

Great post,Yoi!

Interesting,seems like Pluto is not emplied here as much as I tought.Seeing the contacts between the luminaries and Jupiter was a surprise to me,as I associate more Jupiter with popularity than charisma itself.Being someone with Sun,Moon and Mercury trine Jupiter myself,I've always been blessed with great friends who sincerely like me and are willing to help e and support me in whatever I do,but I'm far from being charismatic!Wish I could have that ability to move and inspire others.

I thought your post is really interesting.Good work!

All the best
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Unread 03-28-2007, 05:21 PM
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Re: Charisma

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lissa
Great post,Yoi!

Interesting,seems like Pluto is not emplied here as much as I tought.Seeing the contacts between the luminaries and Jupiter was a surprise to me,as I associate more Jupiter with popularity than charisma itself.Being someone with Sun,Moon and Mercury trine Jupiter myself,I've always been blessed with great friends who sincerely like me and are willing to help e and support me in whatever I do,but I'm far from being charismatic!Wish I could have that ability to move and inspire others.

I thought your post is really interesting.Good work!

All the best
Lissa
Thanks. I think you mentioned previously you are a Pisces and have Capricorn rising. That would put your Sun in the 3rd house? As I mentioned 10 out of 12 charts I looked at had the Sun above the horizon. The 2 who didn't had theirs just below the horizon. I guess that means you are more concentrated on the inner world than the outer world?
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Unread 03-28-2007, 05:27 PM
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Re: Charisma

Oh yes,I forgot that detail!You're right,my Sun is above the horizon in the3rd.
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