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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #51  
Unread 02-17-2012, 06:20 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
I have an interesting note to share. I've sort of been a bad kid and have been going through the charts of people I know to calculate their hylegs and alcocodens. I have one friend who is 24 whose alcocoden gives her roughly 22 years. She's obviously alive and well, but the interesting thing is last year she was sent to the ER for chest pains and was diagnosed with heart palpitations, she's on medicine for it now.
This is another example how the modern medicine is giving years to the length of life of men.

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Unread 02-17-2012, 06:21 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/vi...a62f26c128046c

Here's an interesting forum discussion about the adding/subtracting according to Ptolomy.
I suppose that this is the method of which JupiterAsc was talking.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 06:53 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Omnisphericus,

take a look here http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=36454
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Unread 02-17-2012, 08:01 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingTheSeas View Post
Thank you DreamingTheSeas, I'm reading it at the moment.
It is very informative but in the same time very confusing because it seems out that there are so many different interpretations of Ptolomy and his work.
I'm trying to follow the calculations which Bob makes about finding the direction between the Hyleg and Dc. Bob says that Ptolomy didn't use Alcocoden. I've not read Ptolomy but the author on the Angelicus Merlin group who has made a summary on H & A from different authors and which I'm quoting often here on this thread is saying this (under the section of finding the Alcocoden according to Ptolomy):

Quote:
Ptolemy
Take the planet that has the most dignities in the place of the Hyleg.
His method of ascertaining the number of years given is based on directing the
Alcochoden to the degrees of the malefics. The method requires a study book of its own.
He does, however, make an interesting comment:

“For in general we must not admit any planet, either to destroy or to aid,
that is under the rays of the Sun, except that when the Moon is prorogator
the place of the Sun itself is destructive when it is changed about by the
presence of a maleficent planet and is not released by any of the
beneficent ones.”


Which seems to imply that an aspecting planet which is USB neither adds nor subtracts
years and that if the Sun is with or aspected by a malefic and not aspected by a benefic
nor in the terms of a benefic it becomes malefic.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 09:13 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

hi Omnisphericus. I've been quite concerned about my longevity. I found 38-42 for myself. Can you view my chart and tell me which planets you think are hyleg and alcocoden I found my ascendant as hyleg and Mars as alcocoden. What do you think?
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Unread 02-17-2012, 09:54 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

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Originally Posted by Jupiter1st View Post
hi Omnisphericus. I've been quite concerned about my longevity. I found 38-42 for myself. Can you view my chart and tell me which planets you think are hyleg and alcocoden I found my ascendant as hyleg and Mars as alcocoden. What do you think?
Maybe you can take Jupiter in 1st as Alcocoden of the Asc.
It is angular and in exaltation, so it can give its major years.

Don't panic about the years you have calculate. As you can see we empirically try to investigate what from the older texts is functioning and what is not functioning. I would suggest to you to take these judgments as play and do not take it seriously, it is not a matter of proven fact and non-changeability at this point. We are still searching for the most accurate method, till then be relaxed.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 11:22 PM
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Hyleg Acording to Ptolomy

Because the discussion led to Ptomlomy's method maybe its time to give attention to this method of finding the H & A.
It seems out that his method is more complicated than the rest.

I will first quote some summaries of the method of Ptolomy and than we can talk about it as well about the method of determining the length of life through the directions of the Hyleg.

Quote:
Ptolemy Book III, Chapter 10

Gives five hylegical places:
1. MC
2. 1st (5 deg before Asc and 25 degrees below)
3. 11th
4. 7th
5. 9th
The regions of greatest importance are the Sun, Moon, Asc, PoF and their rulers.

In a day chart, examine

Sun
Moon
Almuten of the Sun, new Moon prior to birth, Ascendant
Ascendant

In a night chart, examine

Moon
Sun
Almuten of Moon, full moon prior to birth, Part of Fortune
if the chart is conjunctional, the Asc, otherwise the Part of Fortune
[Note that if a day chart is preventional you still look for the last conjunction prior to the
birth; if the night chart is conjunctional you look to the last full moon.]
If both the luminaries or sect rulers are in hylegical places, take the one that is in the
place of greatest authority; the almuten is preferred only when it is in a position of
greater authority and has dignity with both the lights (Sun and Moon).

[Basically, you are looking for one of the above in a hylegical place. Ptolemy does not
accept any planet in a non-hylegical place as the hyleg]
Here's another summary of the method of Ptolomy:
(From this site: http://www.greekmedicine.net/medical...the_Hyleg.html)

Quote:
Ptolemy's Method for Determining the Hyleg

Claudius Ptolemy, generally regarded as being the father of Western astrrology, states in his Tetrabiblios that the Hyleg is the planet with the greatest essential dignity in five important chart positions:
1) The degree of the Sun
2) The degree of the Moon
3) The degree of the Ascendant
4) The Part of Fortune
5) The Prenatal Syzygy - the degree of the New Moon or Full Moon before birth (New Moon if the natal Moon is waxing, and Full Moon if the natal Moon is waning).
When it comes to matters of essential planetary dignities, classical astrologers like Ptolemy had a much more complex and involved system for reckoning them than modern astrology. In addition to the modern dignities of rulership and exaltation, the ancients also figured in the triplicity rulers as well as the lords of the terms and faces.
In addition, they had a point system for tallying up or measuring the relative strength or debility of a planet, based on its essential dignities and debilities. Five points was given for a planet being the domicile ruler, four points for it being in exaltation, three points for it being the triplicity ruler, two points for being the term ruler, and one point for being the face ruler. The planet with the greatest essential dignity is called the Almuten.
With Ptolemy's method the Hyleg, being the planet with the greatest essential dignity over the above five key positions in the natal horoscope, functions like a Grand Almuten of the entire chart. To score and determine exactly what this Grand Almuten is, put the symbols for the seven classical planets across the top of the page. Under each, write down in a vertical column all the points each planet receives regarding each of the above five positions. At the end, tally up the total number of points for each planet; the planet with the highest score or total overall wins.
As a reference chart for scoring, especially regarding the more obscure classical dignities, I provide you with the following link. It's a chart of the essential planetary dignities according to Ptolemy, with an explanatory article of several pages that follows it:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig2.html
One additional qualification remains: the planet must also be in a Hylegaical house. For purposes of selecting the Hyleg, Ptolemy considered the first five degrees above the horizon to be functionally part of the First House; a First House planet, to be Hyleg, must also be in the same sign as the Ascendant degree. If no planet can qualify to be the Hyleg, then the Ascendant itself becomes the Hyleg.
Once the Hyleg has been determined, it is analyzed according to its various accidental dignities to determine the native's potential for health and longevity. The point system for scoring these accidental dignities and debilities is also in the the Skyscript article that accompanies the chart on the above link. Accidental dignities add to the Hyleg's potential for health and vitality, whereas accidental debilities detract from it.
The 17th century English astrologer William Lilly also had his method for determining the Hyleg. It can also be found in the above Skyscript article.

Last edited by Omnisphericus; 02-17-2012 at 11:30 PM.
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  #58  
Unread 02-18-2012, 01:25 AM
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Ptolomy's Tetrabiblos

In his book Tetrabiblos in chapter 10 (book III) called "Of Length of Life" Ptolomy says:

Quote:
In the first place we must consider those places prorogative (see definitions bellow) in which by all means the planet must be that is to receive the lordship of the prorogation; namely, the twelfth part of the zodiac surrounding the horoscope, from 5° ahove the actual horizon up to the 25° that remains, which is rising in succession to the horizon; the part sextile dexter to these thirty degrees, called the House of the Good Daemon; the part in quartile, the mid-heaven; the part in trine, called the House of the God; and the part opposite, the Occident.

Because the whole chapter is about 6 pages I decided to put it in a pdf file. You can download it from here:
http://uploading.com/files/9ma36fd3/...of%2BLife.pdf/

I suggest all who are interested to study this chapter so we can fully investigate the Ptolomy's method of calculating and directing the Hyleg.


-----------------------------
Definition of Prorogator
A term used by Ptolemy in connection with a method of direction, effected by proportion of horary times - semi-arcs. One must distinguish between the Prorogator, the body directed and the Prorogation or method by which it is directed. The Prorogator is the Apheta or Life Giver, in contrast to the Anareta. By day and in aphetical places, the Sun holds the position of Prorogator; by night the Moon. (v. "Hyleg.")

Last edited by Omnisphericus; 02-18-2012 at 11:39 AM.
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  #59  
Unread 02-18-2012, 01:44 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

jupiter1st, my software gives your sun as the hyleg in 2 of the 3 systems for getting it which includes ptolemys system.. the other 1 of the 3 gives part of fortune for the hyleg. i don't know the basis for solar fire software arriving at these conclusions.. maybe that will give you a few more years...
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Unread 02-18-2012, 01:48 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

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Originally Posted by sandstone View Post
jupiter1st, my software gives your sun as the hyleg in 2 of the 3 systems for getting it which includes ptolemys system.. the other 1 of the 3 gives part of fortune for the hyleg. i don't know the basis for solar fire software arriving at these conclusions.. maybe that will give you a few more years...
sandstone, where in Solar Fire is the option for calculating the Hyleg?
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Unread 02-18-2012, 01:53 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

i have version 7.3.1 you might not get it in the earlier versions.. -> reports-> tabulations->further dignities.. follow that path if you have a version close to 7.3.1
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Unread 02-18-2012, 02:05 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandstone View Post
jupiter1st, my software gives your sun as the hyleg in 2 of the 3 systems for getting it which includes ptolemys system.. the other 1 of the 3 gives part of fortune for the hyleg. i don't know the basis for solar fire software arriving at these conclusions.. maybe that will give you a few more years...
Sun or PoF, doesn't that make Jupiter Alcocoden?

Jupiter1st, I would caution you not to place too much importance on anything related to longevity that you may or may not see in your chart, for all the reasons everyone has already mentioned on this thread. No one can predict length of life. Period. Going back and looking at the charts of the deceased is an interesting intellectual exercise, but keep in mind that when we are working with several methods proposed by different astrologers, and an established TOD, it is easy to "make" the method fit.
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Unread 02-18-2012, 02:18 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Thanks for your help guys but I'd like to know which planets you think are hyleg and alcocoden in my chart. Since my Sun is unaspected , I think it may be the ascendant. Mars trines it as the triplicity ruler. So he can be alcocoden. Mars is angular and he can give 66 years. South node conjunction will subtract 16 years which makes 50. Mercury is highly detriment. It will at least subtract 20 years. It then makes 30. Jupiter trine will add 12. It makes roughly 42. Mercury can subtract his middle years as months, yet Jupiter can add his middle years as months as well. So they may compansate each other. Yet, I'm not so sure.

Sandstone what do you mean by saying "maybe that will give you a few more years... " Part of fortune gives 120 years because he produces Sun as alcocoden. Sun is in Aries in the 10th and doesn't have a major aspect. 120 years don't make sense.
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Unread 02-18-2012, 02:25 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandstone View Post
i have version 7.3.1 you might not get it in the earlier versions.. -> reports-> tabulations->further dignities.. follow that path if you have a version close to 7.3.1
Thank you! I have version 7.0.6, it is the same procedure as you've mentioned.
Well, I'm not sure about the validity of this calculation. I think that when using Bonatti's calculation does not count the 'must have an aspect' rule, or maybe uses the WSH aspects.
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Unread 02-18-2012, 02:41 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

jupiter1st, i was only saying that based on you comment "I found 38-42 for myself."

Omnisphericus - you're welcome.. up do you want you want to do with it..
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Unread 02-18-2012, 03:58 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jupiter1st View Post
Sandstone what do you mean by saying "maybe that will give you a few more years... " Part of fortune gives 120 years because he produces Sun as alcocoden. Sun is in Aries in the 10th and doesn't have a major aspect. 120 years don't make sense.
Omnisphericus - Skyscript has these interesting comments on the issue

QUOTE CLELIA ROMANO

"I do not agree that the Sun must to be discarded because it is impossible to live 120 years.
If you do not believe in the rules, why to study them?

Masha´allah says that a wise man can not ask questions in his own behalf: now I can see how right he was"

QUOTE PETR RESPONSE TO CLELIA'S COMMENT

"I agree fully.

jupiter1st We discussed the question of length of life in April. Your life potential (which gives alcocoden) is high. Better to be interested in life than death"
source: http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewto...er=asc&start=0
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Unread 02-18-2012, 06:16 PM
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Ptolomy

Clelia Romano in her article 'Longevity' says:

Quote:
"The most important differences between Ptolomy's and Medieval-Arabic methods to find a releaser are:

1- Arab-Medieval astrology accepted hyleg under the earth.

2- In medieval astrology the hyleg was not accepted if one of its rulers did not aspect it."
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Unread 02-19-2012, 12:20 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

So according to Ptolemy in Diana's chart Venus in 6th house cannot be Hyleg! And the Hyleg is Ascendant??
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Unread 02-19-2012, 12:56 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

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So according to Ptolemy in Diana's chart Venus in 6th house cannot be Hyleg! And the Hyleg is Ascendant??
Venus is 5th house Placidus

Today it is common knowledge that much of Tetrabiblos was collected from earlier sources; Ptolemy's achievement was ordering material systematically, showing how the subject could, he thought, be rationalized. Explanations are provided for astrological effects of planets, based upon effects of heating, cooling, moistening, and drying. Ptolemy thought that astrology was like medicine, that is conjectural, because variable factors such as race, country, and upbringing of a person affects an individual's personality as much if not more than the positions of the Sun, Moon, and planets at the precise moment of their birth, so Ptolemy saw astrology as something to be used in life but in no way relied on entirely http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy (scroll down for paragraph heading "Astrology")
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Unread 02-19-2012, 01:33 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

if diana's memory is out - it could be in a few different houses too fwiw..
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Unread 02-19-2012, 03:47 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

“Diana was born in the late afternoon on 1 July 1961, in Sandringham, Norfolk” according to wikipedia - rather vague http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana,_Princess_of_Wales

In fact the question of an exact birth times is a recurring one for astrologers who are expected to provide accurate results with inaccurate natal data!

Here's a newspaper report of an extreme example that has been in the news just recently:

"LONDON (Reuters) - Real name/birthplace of legendary silent-film star Charlie Chaplin is shrouded in mystery. British MI5 agents were asked in 1952 by the FBI, to investigate Chaplin who believed he was born 16 April 1889 South London – but MI5 found no record of his birth anywhere, declassified files revealed. A letter, found in a locked drawer last year, was sent to Chaplin a few years before his death in 1977 by a Jack Hill, who said Chaplin was born in a caravan belonging to his aunt "the Gypsy Queen" in central England and his mother was part of "the travelling community."

"It's very unusual, particularly after investigation by MI5, for the date and place of birth for such a well-known celebrity as Charlie Chaplin to remain so mysterious," said Professor Christopher Andrew, the official historian of MI5

Chaplin's oldest surviving son commented: "Though there's no proof that Jack Hill's information is correct, he obviously treated it seriously or he would not have preserved it so carefully".
source: REUTERS
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Unread 02-19-2012, 03:52 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

here is my simple thesis :

if you want to learn about the hyleg and alcocoden( or any other interesting technique to astrology), use an astrology chart that is rated AA.. you stand a better chance of learning the technique you are trying to figure out, as opposed to getting bogged down with a chart that has question marks around it.. as much as it might be fun to focus on someone who you really want to know better that is also famous - pick someone with a chart that is rated AA.. you will get further... go with whitney houstons chart, not because i like her, but because you can try the technique out on a chart that is rated AA.. cheers -
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Unread 02-19-2012, 04:11 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandstone View Post
here is my simple thesis :
if you want to learn about the hyleg and alcocoden( or any other interesting technique to astrology), use an astrology chart that is rated AA.. you stand a better chance of learning the technique you are trying to figure out, as opposed to getting bogged down with a chart that has question marks around it.. as much as it might be fun to focus on someone who you really want to know better that is also famous - pick someone with a chart that is rated AA.. you will get further... go with whitney houstons chart, not because i like her, but because you can try the technique out on a chart that is rated AA.. cheers -
Reminder to all: Omnisphericus commenced this thread with a traditional analysis of Whitney Houston's AA rated chart and IMO has delivered convincing results!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
I will try firstly to give the example of the Hyleg and Alcocoden in the chart of the recently died pop diva Whitney Houston.

Lets take the example of Whitney Houston.

Attachment 26865

Her chart is a night chart so we first look for a potential Hyleg in the Moon.
Moon is under the Horizon in a night chart, so it can not be Hyleg.
Then we go to the Sun (in a day chart we first go with the Sun), the Sun is in cadent 6th house so it can not be Hyleg too.
Than we look at the Syzygy, or the last lunation prior the birth. In the Whitney's chart it was a Full Moon prior the birth so the chart is so called Preventional and we take the Pars Fortuna as potential Hyleg.
It is in 4th in Cancer.
We now look at the dispositors to see which dispositor takes the most dignity points at the degree in which the PoF is.
For that reason we take the dignity table, I will use here a table with triplicities according to Dorotheus and terms according to the Egyptians.
Domicileruler takes 5 points, exaltation ruler 4, triplicity ruler 3, term ruler 2 and face ruler 1 point.
Moon, domicile ruler = 5 points
Jupiter exaltation ruler 4 points
Mars, triplicity ruler 3 points
Venus, term ruler 2 points
Venus, face ruler 1 point.

Next we look if the Moon (as having the most points in that degree in which PoF is) is making some classical (conjunction, sextile, square, trine, opposition) aspect to the PoF. She is making a square to the Fortuna but it is in wide orbs (although in the moiety). Jupiter is out of orb. Venus is not in aspect. Mars is making a partile (exact) aspect to the PoF and we will take him instead of the Moon (because it is in partile aspect).


So, Part Of Fortune is a Hyleg in Whitney's chart and Mars is Alcocoden.


Next we look at the years table of the planets potential Alcocodens:

Attachment 26866

We see that the minor years of Mars are 15, Middle Years 40,5 and major years 66.

Mars is angular but in very week sign position (in Exile) so we will take its Middle years (40.5).
Next, we look at the aspects which Mars receives from the benefics and malefics.
If benefic aspects the Alcocoden with Con, sextile or trine adds its minor years as years and its middle years as months, weeks or days (according to the position in which lies).
If Malefic aspects the Alcocoden, subtract from the Alcocoden with its minor years and middle years as months, weeks or days.

Mars is aspecting the other malefic Saturn, but with trine (so this not subtract years because it is benevolent aspect).

Mars is making opposition with Jupiter but out of orb, and with opposition so this does not add to the years.
Mars is making a sextile to Venus and she can add her minor years.
So we add Venus' minor years (8), and her middle years as days (45), because she is cadent and combust. If she was in good position we would add her middle years as months.

So we have,

40.5years + 8years + 45 days = 48 years 7 months and 15 days.
Whitney lived 48 years 6 months and 2 days
.
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Unread 02-19-2012, 04:50 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

umkay, we want AA rated charts, and even those might have questions?

Omnisphericus, you wanted Janis Joplin (btw, this jr. astrologer's favorite singer, ever) AA rated from astro.com

19 January 1943 at 09:45 (= 09:45 AM ) Port Arthur TX, USA, 29n54, 93w56

Anyone up for this?
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Unread 02-19-2012, 01:00 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingTheSeas View Post
So according to Ptolemy in Diana's chart Venus in 6th house cannot be Hyleg! And the Hyleg is Ascendant??
Planet in 6th house can not be Hyleg according to all the authors.
Sun in 8th unacceptable according to Ptolomy, Moon below the horizon not acceptable. There is no planet that rules at least 3 dignities in the degree of Sun, Moon, pre-natal new moon and Ascendant, so Ascendant is Hyleg in this chart yes.
According to the quote I quoted by the author from angelicus merlin you don't look for at least 3 dignities, but you look for the Almuten of those places.
But I was thought that you need to look for at least 3 dignities by one planet, and if that planet is in hylegical place in the natal chart you take that planet. Ptolomy's text is not clear here so it is a matter of debate.
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