Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Natal Astrology

Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #151  
Unread 02-08-2012, 11:49 PM
Rebel Uranian's Avatar
Rebel Uranian Rebel Uranian is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: My natural habitat
Posts: 2,090
Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Ah, I think maybe they were known long before the synthesis of Hellenistic astrology, by a previous advanced civilization, and when those indications became lost they remained as a shadow in the myths (from all over the ancient world) of the 3 Fates!
Even in Vedic we find "shadow planets" called Mandi and Gulika, which to an extent fulfill the role similar to the outers in Western-and these "pseudo-planets" of jyotish are described right back in the earliest Vedic astrological literature.

....however, we have entered the realm of speculation and esotericism here: you want to discount the outers, fine-more power to you; I, however, am quite thankful for my knowledge and understanding of these "sons of Saturn"...
What about all the other dwarf planets that are the same size as or bigger than Pluto?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
First of all, any planet discovered in the 1780s or 1840s is hardly a "newcomer" on the astrological scene. Even Pluto, discovered more than 80 years ago, was discovered sufficiently long ago that modern astrologers have some sense of what it is up to, especially in this day of modern telecommunications, when astrological communication transmits so quickly.

Second, it is pretty clear that the really ancient delineations which are at the root of any astrology were based less on astrologers' practical experience than on idealized models, based upon religious or philosophical commitments (Barton, Ancient Astrology, 136-7.)...

Indeed, some astrologers (or their later translators and copyists) stated that their astrology did not come from their own personal experience or the personal experience of their teachers, but from the holy wise men of ancient Egypt or even from the gods themselves. (For example, Dorotheus, Carmen Astrologicum V:1; and Firmicus Maternus, Matheseos Libri VIII, III preface, 1; and IV preface.)

...

Where astrologers relied more on their personal experience than on some kind of deposit of faith, presumably over the course of two centuries or 80 years, they figured out how to apply new information.

Fourth, some astrology that really doesn't seem to work well gets dropped. ...
If those deposits of faith worked well in order to not get dropped, then super!

Reply With Quote
  #152  
Unread 02-09-2012, 12:48 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,465
Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
First of all, any planet discovered in the 1780s or 1840s is hardly a "newcomer" on the astrological scene.

So how many planets were "discovered in the 1780's or 1840's"? Two

1. Uranus was discovered 13 March 1781

2. Neptune was discovered 23 September 1846.

Tens of thousands of years since Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn were discovered.

Therefore Uranus, Neptune and Pluto ARE mere newcomers to the astrological scene
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Even Pluto, discovered more than 80 years ago, was discovered sufficiently long ago that modern astrologers have some sense of what it is up to, especially in this day of modern telecommunications, when astrological communication transmits so quickly.
"More than eighty years ago?" OK Pluto was discovered 18 February 1930 so that's 82 years ago then

You say "modern astrologers have some sense of what Pluto is up to" - what are your reliable data sources for this claim?
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post:
SunConjunctUranus (01-10-2019)
  #153  
Unread 02-09-2012, 04:40 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,286
Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

Rebel Uranian, there are astrologers who work extensively with asteroids-- you may know the work of an astrologer named Demetra George. Another one called Juan Revilla has worked on the centaurs. Philip Sedgwick is another astrologer who works with trans-Plutonians. Ceres is really interesting. Formerly classified as an asteroid, she was "upgraded" to dwarf planet status by astronomers in 2006. She does show up prominently in the charts of some domestic divas like Martha Stewart.

You know, I sometimes wonder how well that "deposit of faith" has served astrologers. Accuracy of chart-readings and predictions is a huge problem in astrology.

For me, the key work is "experiment!" Keep an open mind. See if heavenly bodies beyond the Big Seven have explanatory value. A background in mythology is a big asset here.

JA, the idea that a time span of over 230 to 80 years is insufficient to get a sense of how outer planets work in astrology makes no sense to me. Look at all the discoveries and inventions on the planet since 1781-- or since 1930. People have had all kinds of time to figure out how the internal combustion engine works, invent the light bulb or to advance modern medicine. Many discoveries and inventions are far more recent than 1930 (like the computer with which you transmit your messages,) yet computer engineers and other smart people have no trouble in understanding how they work. The notion that somehow astrologers are too dim-witted to figure out how the outer planets work in horoscopes over a period of decades or even centuries is a sad commentary.

Pick up any modern astrology handbook or cookbook from the past 40 years, and you will see plenty of information on Pluto. They are too numerous to mention. But we might start with Robert Hand, Planets in Youth and Planets in Transit. You might also look at the books specifically on Pluto by Steven Forrest and Donna Cunningham.

JA, astrology didn't exist 10,000 years ago. We might point to different cultures' star-lore or "cultural astronomy" (most of which, 8000 years BP would come from archaeological evidence.) But it was nothing like horoscopic astrology, even of the sort that developed in Babylon.

I wasn't scoffing at Saint Vettius, BTW. (He is kind of a holy man to you.) It is OK to lighten up occasionally about the history of astrology. Incidentally, I would love to see you use his work in actual chart interpretations.

And yes, 82 years is "more than 80 years" in my book.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #154  
Unread 02-09-2012, 09:46 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,465
Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
...astrology didn't exist 10,000 years ago.

You cannot prove that

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
......the idea that a time span of over 230 to 80 years is insufficient to get a sense of how outer planets work in astrology makes no sense to me. The notion that somehow astrologers are too dim-witted to figure out how the outer planets work in horoscopes over a period of decades or even centuries is a sad commentary.

Not so sad when you realize that 80 years is not even sufficient time for Uranus to complete one orbit of the Sun (84.3 years = one Uranus orbit of the Sun).

Cheer up! Neptune requires 164.79 years to orbit the Sun so after 230 years there's only another one hundred years to wait until Neptune completes circuit number 2!!

Not so upsetting when you consider that after as many as 230 years Pluto still has not completed even one orbit of the Sun and requires another 17.7 years in order to do so. (247.7 years = one Pluto orbit of the Sun)


Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Pick up any modern astrology handbook or cookbook from the past 40 years, and you will see plenty of information on Pluto. They are too numerous to mention.

Those are
guesswork of recent origin - not 'information'

Clearly you are unfamiliar with the complex techniques tried and tested over thousands of years as chronicled by Vettius Valens - or you would not seriously compare his work with that of 'any astrological cookbook' - how funny!

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Incidentally, I would love to see you use his work in actual chart interpretations..
Incidentally, it is strange that you - a retired academic who has often stated they have access to a vast academic library - cannot find sufficient information so that you can do your own actual chart interpretations using the techniques chronicled by Vettius Valens. Here is a link to a website where you may purchase any number of books that explain Hellenistic astrological delineations http://www.projecthindsight.com/

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
I wasn't scoffing at Saint Vettius, BTW.

I note that you like to precede your scoffing by denying somewhat unconvincingly that you are nevertheless scoffing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
(He is kind of a holy man to you.)
You consistently use religion for thinly veiled attacks
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post:
SunConjunctUranus (01-10-2019)
  #155  
Unread 02-09-2012, 05:51 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,286
Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
You cannot prove that

JA, if you look at the way the fields of archaeology and history work, it is pretty simple. If there is no evidence at Time T, T+1, T+2, T=3, &c. that something exists in either archaeological sites or textual sources, but it does show up at time T+n and thereafter, then we assume that the thing was developed at some point between those two time periods. In fact the burden of proof would be on someone to show that astrology (vs. star-lore) existed 10,000 years ago. Where is your evidence?

Moreover, you can usually trace developmental trends with ideas or artefacts of long-standing. They tend to show up in less-developed ways and then undergo a period of evolution. (Although occasionally the reverse happens.)

Not so sad when you realize that 80 years is not even sufficient time for Uranus to complete one orbit of the Sun (84.3 years = one Uranus orbit of the Sun).

Cheer up! Neptune requires 164.79 years to orbit the Sun so after 230 years there's only another one hundred years to wait until Neptune completes circuit number 2!!

Not so upsetting when you consider that after as many as 230 years Pluto still has not completed even one orbit of the Sun and requires another 17.7 years in order to do so. (247.7 years = one Pluto orbit of the Sun)


Those are guesswork of recent origin - not 'information'

Astrologers do not need one or more post-discovery complete cycles of a planet to see how it operates, thanks to historical records and horoscopes of historical figures. Looking retrospectively, you can examine as many complete cycles as you wish. Indeed, with a long-cycle outer planet about to enter a "new" sign, mundane astrologers will often look at what happened when that planet was last in that sign.

Then planets-in-signs is hardly the whole story. All kinds of people during the past 230-80 years will have collectively experienced the different aspects and houses of the outer planets. Astrologers look at charts of their clients or well-known public figures to understand how these houses and aspects operate.

Clearly you are unfamiliar with the complex techniques tried and tested over thousands of years as chronicled by Vettius Valens - or you would not seriously compare his work with that of 'any astrological cookbook' - how funny!

Incidentally, it is strange that you - a retired academic who has often stated they have access to a vast academic library - cannot find sufficient information so that you can do your own actual chart interpretations using the techniques chronicled by Vettius Valens. Here is a link to a website where you may purchase any number of books that explain Hellenistic astrological delineations http://www.projecthindsight.com/

I don't know how you came up with this assertion, JA, but I find it pathetic. I have yet to see you attempt a chart interpretation using Valens, but if you have done so, please provide the link. I have the Riley provisional interpretation and refer to it extensively. Not because I wish to practice his form of astrology, but because of my interest in the history of ancient astrology. Frankly, if you search Vettius Valens on an academic data base, you won't find much there. I have done this. I would refer you to the work of Otto Neugebauer and his associates, who found that each of Valens's charts did correspond to actual dates.

Valens gets into a number of topics that I do not wish to practice, like his lengthy material on predicting length of life and manner of death. Are these methods that you practice?


I note that you like to precede your scoffing by denying somewhat unconvincingly that you are nevertheless scoffing.

JA, don't put words in my mouth. It is OK to lighten up occasionally. Why have you invested so much ego in Valens?

You consistently use religion for thinly veiled attacks
Negatory, JA. Yet if you think so, why the smiley button? Is this intended as a "gotcha!" or are you actually pleased about something?
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 02-09-2012 at 10:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #156  
Unread 02-09-2012, 08:26 PM
tokyo.lights's Avatar
tokyo.lights tokyo.lights is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 275
Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
tokyo.lights, I see no reason not to be eclectic! On the other hand, after a period of experimentation you may find that one branch of astrology just seems to work best for you. The idea that there is only one "correct" way to do astrology has not been the case for the past 2000 years.
Yeah sounds good to me. I'll just experiment with everything until I make up my mind on what works for me should be fun/interesting!
__________________
Sagittarius is my #1 dominant sign, Jupiter #2 dominant planet! Jupiter, Uranus & Neptune in the 9th. One day I'll travel the world! Japan you're first
Reply With Quote
  #157  
Unread 02-10-2012, 02:46 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,465
Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
if you look at the way the fields of archaeology and history work, it is pretty simple. If there is no evidence at Time T, T+1, T+2, T=3, &c. that something exists in either archaeological sites or textual sources, but it does show up at time T+n and thereafter, then we assume that the thing was developed at some point between those two time periods. In fact the burden of proof would be on someone to show that astrology (vs. star-lore) existed 10,000 years ago. Where is your evidence?

Moreover, you can usually trace developmental trends with ideas or artefacts of long-standing. They tend to show up in less-developed ways and then undergo a period of evolution. (Although occasionally the reverse happens.)
Simply because evidence either no longer exists - or alternatively has not yet been discovered - does not necessarily mean that the evidence in question never existed at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Astrologers do not need one or more post-discovery complete cycles of a planet to see how it operates, thanks to historical records and horoscopes of historical figures. Looking retrospectively, you can examine as many complete cycles as you wish. Indeed, with a long-cycle outer planet about to enter a "new" sign, mundane astrologers will often look at what happened when that planet was last in that sign.

Then planets-in-signs is hardly the whole story. All kinds of people during the past 230-80 years will have collectively experienced the different aspects and houses of the outer planets. Astrologers look at charts of their clients or well-known public figures to understand how these houses and aspects operate.
By your own academic standards, you have no evidence for your foregoing contention.

Furthermore, having refused to accept anything other than tangible evidence as proof for the existence of horoscopes in 10,000 BC you nevertheless insist that - despite the absence of tangible, verifiable, peer reviewed, written/photographic/scientific evidence for the alleged sign location of the recently discovered outer planets prior to their discovery dates – you nevertheless continue to insist that their locations MAY be assumed by computer programs.

So while you can accept what is simply a notional location for the outer planets in 10,500 BC you nevertheless insist on written proof for the existence of horoscopes in 10,500 BC. Interesting.

IMO Historians cannot assess destroyed evidence. Academic historians therefore invent theories to account for existing evidence, claiming that they somehow have greater authority than so-called 'amateur' historians whose credible theories are then routinely dismissed as 'non-academic'. Furthermore any academic disagreeing with their peer group is ostracized, an excellent example being that of John Marco Allegro and the Dead Sea Scrolls translations http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuIQVfmBEp8

A recent historical example:
When Hiroshima and Nagasaki were both instantly vaporised and mostly destroyed by weapons of mass destruction in August 1945 priceless historical records vanished irretrievably.

Currently historic ancient artifacts including cuneiform texts, libraries of maps, books and other ancient written records in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya are being irretrievably destroyed.

Academics then declare “There's no evidence”.

Destruction is caused not only by war but also by natural disasters such as tsunamis, earthquakes, mudslides, hurricanes and tornadoes: then when - for whatever reason - evidence has been obliterated, academic historians glibly assert 'there is no proof' that the particular evidence in question was ever in existence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
I don't know how you came up with this assertion, JA, but I find it pathetic. I have yet to see you attempt a chart interpretation using Valens, but if you have done so, please provide the link. I have the Riley provisional interpretation and refer to it extensively. Not because I wish to practice his form of astrology, but because of my interest in the history of ancient astrology. Frankly, if you search Vettius Valens on an academic data base, you won't find much there. I have done this. I would refer you to the work of Otto Neugebauer and his associates, who found that each of Valens's charts did correspond to actual dates.

Valens gets into a number of topics that I do not wish to practice, like his lengthy material on predicting length of life and manner of death. Are these methods that you practice?
You frequently state that your interest is not only merely academic but also that you have no wish to practice Valens form of astrology and furthermore, that you disapprove of Valens techniques of predicting length of life and manner of death. Why would anyone undertake the time consuming and detailed task of delineating Valens for an academic who is simply not going to use those delineations or profit from them in any practical way astrologically? No member of this forum – and that includes yourself - is under any obligation to as you put it “attempt a chart interpretation using Valens” and you cannot demand that they do so. Members of this forum give their time freely and voluntarily and therefore can delineate as and when they personally choose and not when ordered to by someone who spends their time denigrating the source of their preferred astrological method.

Academic historians spend hours, months, years and lifetimes convincing other academics of the superiority of their particular theories. Unsurprisingly, academic theories are routinely replaced as new discoveries occur.

IMO While you may 'refer' me to any academic historian of your choice - if your interest in Vettius Valens is merely academic then pursue it in your own academic way. Alternatively there are plenty of academic level writings currently being produced by numerous authors including Robert Schmidt of project Hindsight which may be found at this link http://www.projecthindsight.com/
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Why have you invested so much ego in Valens?
On the contrary, why are you so critical of my entirely reasonable interest in the works of Vettius Valens, a working astrologer practicing almost two thousand years ago (born February 8, 120 – c. 175) whose major work The Anthology is the longest and most detailed treatise on astrology which has survived from that period and is thus of great value in piecing together actual working techniques of the time? Valens' work is also important because he cites the views of a number of earlier authors and authorities who would otherwise be unknown. The fragments from works attributed to Nechepso and Petosiris, survive mainly through direct quotations in Valens' work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vettius_Valens
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
why the smiley button? Is this intended as a "gotcha!" or are you actually pleased about something?
Obviously, although your inference regarding smiley buttons is yet another thinly veiled attack on your part - nevertheless may you be happy, may you be well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
I wasn't scoffing at Saint Vettius, BTW.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
I note that you like to precede your scoffing by denying somewhat unconvincingly that you are nevertheless scoffing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
(He is kind of a holy man to you.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
You consistently use religion for thinly veiled attacks
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post:
SunConjunctUranus (01-10-2019)
  #158  
Unread 02-10-2012, 04:51 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,286
Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

[attacking remark removed-moderator]

Let's start unpacking your assertions.

1. The meaning of "no evidence." Historical and archaeological conclusions work a bit like a legal case. Imagine a murder trial. We know there's a body, but "Whodunnit?" Nobody witnessed the murder so far as we know. Yet we find clues. We look at whether anybody had a motive for killing the victim. We look at whether anybody with a motive actually had the means to carry out the crime. Is there an alibi, if so? Were there eye-witnesses who would testify that they saw somebody with a motive and the means running away from the crime scene with blood on his shoes? This person may become the defendant. We weigh the evidence and try to make logical inferences. Depending upon the standard required for the charges in this case, the jury will have to decide whether the defendant is guilty or innocent based upon "the preponderance of the evidence" or "beyond a reasonable doubt."

Similarly, nobody living today was living 10,000 years ago. We have to base our assumptions about the origins of astrology based upon the preponderance of the evidence; or, if we are of a cautious nature, beyond a reasonable doubt.

And you will find careful archaeologists and historians writing conclusions like, "There is no evidence that X artefact was invented before date T." "The oldest date known on an existing artefact of type X is ca. 700 BCE." Then these scholars might cautiously speculate further based upon oblique lines of evidence or comparable discoveries.

But the "burden of proof" (to use another legal phrase) would be entirely upon someone to produce new evidence that a phenomenon or artefact existed long before there is any direct evidence of it, before we find the necessary antecedant conditions, or before we find any comparable developments.

Does evidence get destroyed through the passage of time? Sure it does. Moreover, some evidence that we would dearly love to find today doesn't exist because nobody bothered to record it at the time. Yet oftentimes you will find collateral types of existing evidence that allow you to make cautious conclusions about the presence or absence of a given phenomenon at a given time and place.

To use your Japanese nuclear bomb example, some archives destroyed in the blast cannot be reconconstructed. But we might look for a lot of collateral information in Japanese cities that were not destroyed during WWII.

2. Your "investment" in Vettius Valens. I didn't flatter myself that you would interpret a chart using Valens's techniques just to suit me, JA! LOL! Rather, since you revere his work, I thought you might have applied it on another thread on which I haven't participated (lots of these!) and that you might simply provide a link, if so. [attacking remark removed - moderator] If you have never applied Valens's techniques to horoscope interpretation either on this forum, or elsewhere, then I might question the basis of your strong confirmation of his techniques, however.

In my previous post, where did I "demand" that you produce a Valens type of reading? You seem to be putting words in my mouth. And no need to lecture me about people volunteering their time to read people's charts, JA! Many of my posts are of this nature.

Where did I ever deny the considerable importance of Valens work? I haven't and wouldn't. But hey, JA-- I am entitled to my own opinion, even when it varies from yours.

In terms of Valens predicting the native's length of life and manner of death, as we know, these were huge concerns in ancient times. The average life expectancy was low; and kinship was so important to people and politics so perilous for the elite, that the death of the pater familias could be a huge blow to a big household.

The fact that I personally choose not to deal in "death clock" astrology hardly means that I think badly of Valens for doing so. It simply means that a chunk of his work has no bearing on the kind of astrology I choose to practice. And yes, I do poke fun at his work from time to time. (As in "fun", JA.) Scoffing? Nah. Though I would love to take you by the hand and point out particular passages that are kind of laughable today. You might laugh at them, also.

But gosh, JA-- why is it that you are unwilling to lighten up about Vettius Valens? Why why let inferred criticism of him get your goat?

3. Replacement of older academic theories by newer ones. Yes, absolutely this happens a lot. It also happens in society as a whole. And so it should. For example, social scientists in the 19th century had theories about why women or people of colour were inferior to white males. Today we see through these prejudices for what they are. Also, as new and unexpected evidence comes on line, it causes scholars to rethink their previous theories. Some theories are a lot more robust than others, however.

[off topic goading remarks-moderator]
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by wintersprite1; 02-10-2012 at 09:52 AM. Reason: goading remarks and off topic
Reply With Quote
  #159  
Unread 02-10-2012, 05:09 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,465
Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
4. smiley button. I still don't understand why you insert so many of these. You don't seem happy. You are not trying to make me happy. What is their purpose for you?
You are funny! Obviously, your inference regarding smiley buttons is yet another thinly veiled attack on your part - nevertheless may you be happy, may you be well. Now, back to the subject - this thread concerns the topic of the outer planets being generational rather than personal
Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Simply because evidence either no longer exists - or alternatively has not yet been discovered - does not necessarily mean that the evidence in question never existed at all. By your own academic standards, you have no evidence for your contentions.

Furthermore, having refused to accept anything other than tangible evidence as proof for the existence of horoscopes in 10,000 BC you nevertheless insist that - despite the absence of tangible, verifiable, peer reviewed, written/photographic/scientific evidence for the alleged sign location of the recently discovered outer planets prior to their discovery dates – you nevertheless continue to insist that their locations MAY be assumed by computer programs.

So while you can accept what is simply a notional location for the outer planets in 10,500 BC you nevertheless insist on written proof for the existence of horoscopes in 10,500 BC. Interesting.

Furthermore any academic disagreeing with their peer group is ostracized, an excellent example being that of John Marco Allegro and the Dead Sea Scrolls translations http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuIQVfmBEp8

A recent historical example:
Currently historic ancient artifacts including cuneiform texts, libraries of maps, books and other ancient written records in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya are being irretrievably destroyed.

Academics then declare “There's no evidence”.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf

Last edited by JUPITERASC; 02-10-2012 at 05:19 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #160  
Unread 02-10-2012, 02:59 PM
wilsontc's Avatar
wilsontc wilsontc is offline
Senior Member, Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,687
please get back on the subject, to all

All,

Please get back on subject. Focus on the problem not the person and if someone's posting style bothers you personally, either don't respond or put the person on "Ignore" so you don't have to see their posts any more. If any more off-topic personal attacks occur, I will start deleting posts.

Back on subject,

Tim
__________________
To learn basic astrological chart interpretation for your chart see:
http://learnaboutyourastrochart.jimdo.com/
Reply With Quote
  #161  
Unread 02-10-2012, 08:50 PM
Asteriae Asteriae is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 9
Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

I have been reading a lot of this thread, and this personally has always been an interesting debate to me. First of all, I do think that the outer planets are worthy of consideration because they revolve around the sun, the same sun which dictates our patterns of behavior via our Sun Sign. Thus, they are subjects of the Sun, staying with the idea of the archetype as the Sun as a kind of Nobility.

Secondly, and therefore, if they are pulled into orbit by the Sun, subjected to the Sun, then they are influenced by the Sun, and must in some way, impact us, on Earth, given that the Milky Way and its orbits work a delicate pattern of gravitational pulls. In other words, the Sun has to be where it is, for the Earth to be where it is, for Neptune to be where it is. Thus, by pure physics, there is a dynamic relationship between all of that which orbits the Sun, and the Earth. The question then becomes, of what great import do the loads of celestial bodies have upon us on Earth, since there are so many to consider. We must draw limits somewhere.

Many traditionalists limit the influence significantly. This may be because around the time much of the older astrology was developing, they could only go with what they saw with the naked eye. Now, that's not to jump ahead and say, that because of a telescope, we can suddenly see planets and asteroids that must have influence, but if it began with vision, and the telescope extended our vision, perhaps it is worth bringing into the fold what our own expanded awareness of the universe has brought to our attention. In my humble opinion it would seem rather silly to just ignore these fundamental changes in our understanding of the universe.

Granted, it is the declaration of what the influences of these newer outer planets mean which is the question. That they could and do have influence to me seems to be without question. They obviously hold our solar system in some kind of balance.

To me, if in the natal chart, the Sun's rays are upon an outer planet (or some very specific asteroids), meaning if the Sun is conjunct an outer planet, or in major aspect, it is worth noting. The same goes for the Moon, which receives the light of the Sun, except that if the planet only aspects the Moon, its impact is thus felt differently.

The angles and the outer planets seem worth considering, except that there must be some relationship the outer planets make to the ruler of the ASC before I'd make any statements on the matter. Conjunctions to these angles seem arbitrary otherwise, as these angles are very fast moving, whereas the planets are very slow moving, though this can easily be countered by the reality of progressed angles. For example, if a person has Aries Rising, and Mars is conjunct Uranus, I'd associate some kind of interaction between the two. Just what, I cannot say. I'd need to look at the sign/house Mars and Uranus were in, the aspects the ASC receives first and foremost, followed by the aspects Mars receives and whether or not Uranus receives them, and then last come to some conclusion about the effects or impacts of Uranus.

Being a believer in Chiron as the link between the inner and outer planets, I think Chiron must be considered when exploring the tone the outer planets take in the chart. The sign Chiron is in very important, as well as its placement, and the relationship it makes to the personal planets, particularly the chart ruler, the Sun, and the Moon. It says something about how the person deals with the impact of the outer planets. We are people within a generation of these outer planets if we are to accept that these outer planets thus have a generational influence.

As for dual rulerships or octaves, I accept the idea that Neptune is the higher octave of Venus, because given that Moderns associated Neptune with Pisces, and Venus is exalted in Pisces, I like the way that logic would flow. The same thus goes for Uranus. I do not however, agree that Pluto is the higher octave of Mars, though there is an interesting association with will and death between the two. Mars is the God of War, and war does lead to the death, where Pluto as Lord of the Underworld rules. Moreover, in order to achieve, Mars must transform (a civilian to a soldier, a warrior to a hero, for example), a lot like what Moderns associate with Pluto.

I suppose then my only issue lies with dual-rulerships. Virgo and Gemini are still subject to being ruled by Mercury alone, so we cannot immediately jump and say it makes sense to apply these outer planets with signs, because we cannot do so completely. We are stuck in the middle if we are to accept this idea at all.

Last edited by Asteriae; 02-10-2012 at 08:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #162  
Unread 02-11-2012, 05:39 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,465
Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asteriae View Post
To me, if in the natal chart, the Sun's rays are upon an outer planet (or some very specific asteroids), meaning if the Sun is conjunct an outer planet, or in major aspect, it is worth noting. The same goes for the Moon, which receives the light of the Sun, except that if the planet only aspects the Moon, its impact is thus felt differently.

Some common knowledge facts re: Neptune
Neptune is 2.8 billion miles distant – that's 4.5 billion kilometers - from the sun which it orbits once every 165 years

(a) Because of its extreme distance from Earth,
Neptune is invisible to the naked eye so it was only when telescopes were invented that it was realised Neptune was there.

(b) Neptune was discovered only as recently as 130 years ago on 23 September 1846 so astrologers have simply not had time to reach an agreed consensus as to the meaning of Neptune aspects.


(c) No one ever experiences a Neptune Return because to do so they would have to be celebrating their 165th birthday! But we all experience, Moon, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn returns. A planetary 'Return' means that a transiting planet has returned to where it was located on your natal chart.

Some common knowledge facts on Planetary Returns
The transiting Moon returns to its natal chart location once a month (Lunar Return)
Transiting Mercury returns to its natal chart location every 88 Earth days (Mercury Return)
Transiting Venus returns to its natal chart location once 224.701 Earth days (Venus Return)
Transiting Sun returns to its natal chart location once a year (Solar Return)
Transiting Mars returns to its natal chart location 686.971 Earth days - that's 1.9 Earth years (Mars Return)
Transiting Jupiter returns to its natal chart location every 12 Earth years (Jupiter Return)
Transiting Saturn returns to its natal chart location every 30 Earth years (Saturn Return)

Fewer people experience a Uranus Return
Transiting Uranus returns to its natal chart location every 84.07 Earth years

No one experiences either a Neptune or a Pluto Return
Transiting Neptune returns to its natal chart location every 164.8 Earth years

Transiting Pluto returns to its natal chart location once a year 247.7 Earth years


(d) All the outer planets remain at the same degree for a considerable time when retrograding – as an example from 20 June 1971 until 3 October 1971 Neptune remained at 0º Sagittarius.

(e) Everyone born anywhere in the world during those three and a half months from 20 June 1971 until 3 October 1971 has got Neptune at the identical degree in their natal chart.

(f) IMO That's why the outer planets are considered to be a 'generational' influence that is experienced by large groups of people en masse.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #163  
Unread 02-12-2012, 03:44 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,286
Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

"Astrologers do not need one or more post-discovery complete cycles of a planet to see how it operates, thanks to historical records and horoscopes of historical figures. Looking retrospectively, you can examine as many complete cycles as you wish. Indeed, with a long-cycle outer planet about to enter a "new" sign, mundane astrologers will often look at what happened when that planet was last in that sign.

"Then planets-in-signs is hardly the whole story. All kinds of people during the past 230-80 years will have collectively experienced the different aspects and houses of the outer planets. Astrologers look at charts of their clients or well-known public figures to understand how these houses and aspects operate."
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #164  
Unread 02-12-2012, 04:17 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: Are outer planets generational or personal?

The outers move through decanates in 1/3rd the time they move through an entire sign; they move through duodenaries in 1/12th the time they move through an entire sign; since they move so slowly, their movements through the decanate and duodenary signs MIGHT have an effect similar to that of the faster moving planets moving through entire signs; indeed, the outers might well be generational considered relative to their slow movement through entire signs, but can be considered as personal when they are considered relative to their more "rapid" movement through sign subdivisions (especially relative to their movement through duodenaries: Uranus passes through a new duodenary sign every 7 months, Neptune every approximately 13 months and Pluto every 20 months)

Outers, thoug so slow moving, nonetheless can trigger various natal horoscopic points by transit (POF, POS, a house cusp, Bhrigu Bindu point, etc) Such transit-based triggers would be of a substantive and long lasting nature, similar to the long lasting transit triigger results of slow moving Saturn...

Last edited by dr. farr; 02-12-2012 at 04:22 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #165  
Unread 02-12-2012, 09:12 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,465
Outer planets ARE generational NOT personal

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
"Astrologers do not need one or more post-discovery complete cycles of a planet to see how it operates, thanks to historical records and horoscopes of historical figures. Looking retrospectively, you can examine as many complete cycles as you wish. Indeed, with a long-cycle outer planet about to enter a "new" sign, mundane astrologers will often look at what happened when that planet was last in that sign.

"Then planets-in-signs is hardly the whole story. All kinds of people during the past 230-80 years will have collectively experienced the different aspects and houses of the outer planets. Astrologers look at charts of their clients or well-known public figures to understand how these houses and aspects operate."
QUOTE:

"There are two major approaches to the study of mundane astrology. One is the focus on national horoscopes: i.e. countries have astrological charts aka horoscopes aka natal charts just like a person. The other approach is the ancient practice of finding correlations that exist between geological phenomena (such as earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, etc.) and astronomical phenomena (the movement of celestial bodies in the Solar System) based on the horoscope of the astronomical placements at any given time, without reference to a national horoscope". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mundane_astrology


IMO:

It is common knowledge that Mundane astrology examines the cycles of the planets in relation to (a) the astrology of nations as a whole and (b) to geological phenomena such as earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, tsunamis. The history of nations and/or cycles of volcanic eruptions, tsunamis earthquakes and so forth are measured in terms of hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of years SO THE EXTREMELY SLOW MOVING CYCLES OF THE OUTER PLANETS may well have a place within that form of analysis.


AND IN MUNDANE CHARTS THE POPULATION IS DELINEATED “EN MASSE” – NOT individually - and that is why the impersonal, generational outer planets may well have an application in the astrological assessment of mass political and/or mass social movements

Historical individuals are remembered due to their fame and/or notoriety for something that was unusual about their behavior, appearance or actions. Famous people are considered different from the norm. e.g. Mozart composed symphonies aged 4 - that's unusual. There is a whole astrology of fame that purports to account for the fame of the famous - and data for famous people is often easily available - although its accuracy is not always unquestionable. e.g. Obama's birth place/time

IN CONTRAST 'ordinary people' outnumber famous people by tens of thousands - even millions - to one. There are BILLIONS of people who are not famous.

i.e. for every famous person there are tens of thousands of ordinary folk worldwide who are NOT FAMOUS. Furthermore, historical data relating to the many billions of 'ordinary' folk who lived their 'ordinary lives' prior to the discovery of the outer planets is simply not available for assessment, the events of their lives are unknown – and there simply IS NO EVIDENCE regarding whether aspects to planets or angles of the natal charts of NOT FAMOUS people WHO LIVED PRIOR TO THE DISCOVERY OF THE OUTER PLANETS affected those ordinary folks - or not


__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #166  
Unread 02-12-2012, 11:35 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,286
Re: Outer planets ARE generational NOT personal

Nice points, JA-- although they don't have much bearing on the use of the outer planets in modern astrology.

1. Mundane astrology deals with additional topics. Right now there is a lot of buzz about the upcoming US presidential election, the European debt crisis, &c.

2. If we think about planetary cycles, they are pretty predictable. We can say pretty closely when a planet at 0 degrees Aries is going to return to that point, and something about the nature of its orbit.

This isn't the case with natural hazards like earth quakes or tsunamis. Geologists can tell us that people who live on a given fault line should expect an earthquake at some point, but they cannot pinpoint when this will happen. They wish they could.

One of the difficulties in predicting natural disasters from astrology is that a given position of most of the planets will be the same all over the globe: Saturn will be at the same degree on a given date for everyone. Yet the disaster will be felt just at a particular point. I've seen astrologers do some nice work on particular disasters doing place-specific calculations like planetary lines; but I don't know how accurate their overall record is.

3. Some astrologers are (or were) deeply into planetary cycles as a means of predicting life events (like Alexander Ruperti.) But not everyone thinks they are so important. I never noticed much difference with a Jupiter return, for example. Was your last Venus return a major life-event? Mine wasn't, either. You can read a lot of astrology cookbooks that never mention cycles of individual planets or planetary pairs.

Moreover, it's not clear what one could say about Saturn in Roman times. The average life expectancy was so low that many people never lived to see their first Saturn return. We find this with Hellenistic astrologers who said there is no point in predicting a boy's future life events if the evidence indicates he is going to die in childhood. What about the Great Year? Astrologers knew it existed, but nobody was going to live through the 24,000 years of the precession of the equinoxes. I'd be hard pressed to think of a Hellenistic astrologer who thought planetary returns were important for chart interpretation, but I may have missed something.

4. I think you have a valid criticism of using celebrity birth charts to delineate planets' meanings. Unfortunately, a lot of traditional astrology is based on celebrity charts, as well. If you wish to discard them, you would have to turf out a lot of Vettius Valens's charts, because he relied heavily on the charts of political leaders to illustrate his points. Astrologers have been doing celebrity charts since ancient times.

Moreover, fame is indicated by particular points in the horoscope, notably the MC and 10th house. It isn't where we would look to find out about somebody's children or married life. With an afflicted Pluto in the 7th, for example, we might expect to see marital difficulties, and a lot of Joe and Jane Averages have these, as well.

Here's the thing. Modern astrologers also work/ed with clients who are Joe and Jane average. After reading dozens of charts, seeing the clients face-to-face, and hearing their stories, astrologers can begin to get a feel for how a given planet works in a horoscope. The astrologers also discuss things with one another and some of them publish their findings, so they can build upon one another's work: or criticize it as inaccurate.

There is also a kind of "sniff test" that takes place. Robert Hand, for example, wrote several highly regarded cookbooks using outer planets in the 1980s. If the outer planets made no sense as he delineated them, wouldn't you think other astrologers would have said so?

[deleted attacking comment - Moderator]
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by wilsontc; 02-13-2012 at 04:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #167  
Unread 02-13-2012, 02:37 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,465
Re: Outer planets ARE generational NOT personal

[deleted attacking comments - Moderator]

Although there ARE detailed notations from ancient times - such as the Mayan study of the Venus Cycle and of Eclipses THERE ARE NO SUCH NOTATIONS FOR THE OUTER PLANETS.

Therefore, there is no actual written evidence of the precise location of the outer planets prior to their discovery. Guess work using mathematical and computerized models decides 'assumed location'. Produce your incontrovertible PROOF that the outer planets were anywhere in particular, prior to their discovery.

You allege that there is no evidence of astrological practice ten thousand years ago and you therefore allege that 'no one practiced astrology ten thousand years ago'. You cannot prove that.

I remind you that there is no evidence of the precise location of the outer planets ten thousand years ago and therefore modern astrologers cannot, with hindsight, delineate the outer planets prior to their discovery. Modern astrologers may SAY that is what they can do but there is no evidence/proof of that.

Since you mention Vettius Valens - having frequently stated that you have no interest in the astrology of Vettius Valens and that your interest is simply that of an Historian - unsurprisingly, you have neither delineated charts using the techniques of Vettius Valens nor read Vettius Valens delineations of the more than one hundred natal charts (including his own) that he provides in The Anthology.

As an Historian, you instead read other academic points of view of Vettius Valens and base your ideas on those.
Therefore your opinion of the astrological delineation techniques chronicled by Vettius Valens are of no consequence.

btw Vettius Valens cited sources preceding him by more than three hundred years.

IMO THE EXTREMELY SLOW MOVING CYCLES OF THE OUTER PLANETS may have a place within mundane analysis BECAUSE IN MUNDANE CHARTS THE POPULATION IS DELINEATED “EN MASSE” – NOT individually

- SO the impersonal, generational outer planets may well have an application in the astrological assessment of mass political and/or mass social movements


Historical data relating to the many billions of 'ordinary' folk who lived their 'ordinary lives' prior to the discovery of the outer planets is simply not available for assessment - the events of their lives are unknown

– so there simply IS NO EVIDENCE regarding whether aspects by outer planets to angles or planets of the natal charts of NOT FAMOUS people WHO LIVED PRIOR TO THE DISCOVERY OF THE OUTER PLANETS in fact actually affected those ordinary folks - or not
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf

Last edited by wilsontc; 02-13-2012 at 05:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post:
SunConjunctUranus (01-10-2019)
  #168  
Unread 02-13-2012, 11:55 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,286
Re: Outer planets ARE generational NOT personal

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
[deleted attacking comments - Moderator]

Although there ARE detailed notations from ancient times - such as the Mayan study of the Venus Cycle and of Eclipses THERE ARE NO SUCH NOTATIONS FOR THE OUTER PLANETS.

No, of course not! But this isn't an ipso facto reason why modern astrologers must not use outer planets.

Therefore, there is no actual written evidence of the precise location of the outer planets prior to their discovery. Guess work using mathematical and computerized models decides 'assumed location'. Produce your incontrovertible PROOF that the outer planets were anywhere in particular, prior to their discovery.

There is no problem here, because the "guess work" is taken out of the programs by calibrating them to known positions of planets at different times. Also, the same problem would apply to the traditional planets. If applied mathematics and the science of astronomy work on the "inners" there is no explanation for why they should somehow not work for the "outers", as well. Then, as you noted, we have over 230 (Uranus) to 80 (Pluto) years of direct observation via telescopes. Are you suggesting that somehow the astronomical calculations that have worked just fine today somehow fly out the window in the past? You would have to come up with a scientific explanation as to why-- and how-- this could happen.

Let's shift the burden of proof over to your side of the ledger, JA! "Prove" that anything happened in the past (for example, "prove" that Vettius Valens was a real person) when you were not present to observe it. You have to think in terms of the "preponderance of the evidence," or "beyond a reasonable doubt." (With the emphasis on "reasonable".)

You allege that there is no evidence of astrological practice ten thousand years ago and you therefore allege that 'no one practiced astrology ten thousand years ago'. You cannot prove that.

I remind you that there is no evidence of the precise location of the outer planets ten thousand years ago and therefore modern astrologers cannot, with hindsight, delineate the outer planets prior to their discovery. Modern astrologers may SAY that is what they can do but there is no evidence/proof of that.

Please re-read my previous posts on this topic. Where is your proof that astrology was practiced 10,000 years ago? Note that we are discussing astrology-- not other forms of star-lore/cultural astronomy/ ethno-astronomy. Star lore goes back to very early archaeological records, but we wouldn't call it astrology.

Since you mention Vettius Valens - having frequently stated that you have no interest in the astrology of Vettius Valens and that your interest is simply that of an Historian - unsurprisingly, you have neither delineated charts using the techniques of Vettius Valens nor read Vettius Valens delineations of the more than one hundred natal charts (including his own) that he provides in The Anthology.

I am not sure how you are using the term "historian," JA, but I'll let it slide. I doubt that you have delineated any charts using Valens's methods, but I would love to see you post an example of your work. I never said that "I have no interest in the astrology of Vettius Valens, but my interests are clearly different from your interests. Is this a problem for you?

No doubt you are familiar with Neugebauer and Van Hoesen's monograph, Greek Horoscopes. For the others who have not read it, these authors calculated all of the Hellenistic era horoscope descriptions that they could find, including the ones in Vettius Valens, Anthologies. To Valens's credit, all of his checked out with plausible dates. Some were arguably a bit old to be his own clients, but we find many astrologers today delineating horoscopes of people born before their time.

As an Historian, you instead read other academic points of view of Vettius Valens and base your ideas on those. Therefore your opinion of the astrological delineation techniques chronicled by Vettius Valens are of no consequence.

JA, you lose me here. Not only do I read VV when I want to determine what he said about something, but historians precisely need to read widely!! Exactly which books or articles do you think I should stop reading? And which ones to you think have misinterpreted VV?

btw Vettius Valens cited sources preceding him by more than three hundred years.
Unfortunately, some of these individuals are legendary if not mythological.


IMO THE EXTREMELY SLOW MOVING CYCLES OF THE OUTER PLANETS may have a place within mundane analysis BECAUSE IN MUNDANE CHARTS THE POPULATION IS DELINEATED “EN MASSE” – NOT individually

- SO the impersonal, generational outer planets may well have an application in the astrological assessment of mass political and/or mass social movements
I am relieved that you think there may be a place for the "outers" in mundane asttrology, but we part company on individual chart interpretation.

Historical data relating to the many billions of 'ordinary' folk who lived their 'ordinary lives' prior to the discovery of the outer planets is simply not available for assessment - the events of their lives are unknown
Agreed. This is true for most of the people who lived during the period of traditional astrology, as well. Fortunately, we can look at horoscopes and lives of all kinds of people alive since modern astrologers began collecting horoscopes. The Astro-DataBank at Astrodienst includes many ordinary people, BTW, flagged by virtue of some particular attribute such as occupation or mental illness.

– so there simply IS NO EVIDENCE regarding whether aspects by outer planets to angles or planets of the natal charts of NOT FAMOUS people WHO LIVED PRIOR TO THE DISCOVERY OF THE OUTER PLANETS in fact actually affected those ordinary folks - or not
This is hardly a reason to stop using outer planets today for individuals living since these planets were discovered.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 02-13-2012 at 11:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to waybread For This Useful Post:
RodJM (04-10-2014)
  #169  
Unread 02-14-2012, 01:59 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 50,465
Re: Outer planets ARE generational NOT personal

No one has said that any astrologers "must not use" the outer planets! That would be nonsensical!

What I have said is that the three outer planets Uranus, Neptune and Pluto were simply INVISIBLE to ancient astrologers and REMAIN invisible today UNLESS POWERFUL TELESCOPES ARE USED.

Therefore IMO it is unreasonable to attempt to crowbar or cram these three outer planets into an existing astrological framework that is already proven over two thousand years to work perfectly well without them. i.e. "if it ain't broke don't repair it"

Uranus is on the "edge of visibility"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
The earliest recorded sighting of Uranus was by John Flamsteed in 1690, and Flamsteed was no astrologer. Of course, he had no idea what he had seen (he just put it down in star catalogs) and we only know it as Uranus now due to hindsight.

You have to realize what's being said with this assumption that astrologers "knew" about Uranus. Uranus has a magnitude of about 5.9-5.6 and the best we can see with the naked eye is around 6. So here's Uranus, floating just around the limit of sight and hardly seems to move. So it would seem to me that those times it was observed and noted, it was probably seen as just another star. These appearances and disappearances of it obviously lead to it not being seen in traditional texts because it wouldn't have been visible long enough to be able to take note of its motion and make the appropriate tables. If they had, then for sure it would have been included in the tradition, but that does not appear to be case.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf

Last edited by JUPITERASC; 05-16-2012 at 11:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post:
SunConjunctUranus (01-10-2019)
Reply

Tags
generational, outer, personal, planets

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Number of marriages and outer planets virgo18 Natal Astrology 15 07-22-2011 08:58 AM
how is it with outer planets as ascendant rulers? gimzo23 Dignities & debilities 8 05-22-2009 05:45 PM
Unaspected Personal Planets Inside Out Orange Aspects & configurations 23 04-08-2009 09:39 AM
Outer planets Aspects in Synastry... Junke Relational Astrology 0 06-08-2008 08:12 AM
Retrograde Outer Planets Lulu-B Karmic Astrology 12 01-13-2008 10:26 AM



All times are GMT. The time now is 08:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.