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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 10-11-2019, 11:49 AM
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How has the most negative planet in your chart manifested itself ?

For the most negative i mean with regards to the sect of your chart.
If you have a day chart your most malefic planet will be Mars.
If you have a night chart your most malefic planet will be Saturn.

I'll share one with you, for anyone who doesn't understand it.

A friend of mine has a day chart, so her most malefic/troublesome planet for her, in her natal chart is Saturn. She has Saturn placed in her 1st house, making it also angular. As Saturn's placed in her 1st house its primarily directed towards her body, since the 1st house is associated with health, and body of an individual.

The manifestation of this is she has bouts of anemia, pale, face looks very gaunt at times, weak teeth & problems with teeth, very slim doesn't put weight on easily. This is just how Saturns manifested up to now, shes in her early 30's. I would expect that when she gets older she will suffer with arthritis too, and have more unexpected Saturn related trouble to do with her body when Saturn is activated as a time lord.

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  #2  
Unread 10-12-2019, 02:07 AM
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Re: How has the most negative planet in your chart manifested itself ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post
For the most negative i mean with regards to the sect of your chart.
If you have a day. chart your most malefic planet will be Mars.
If you have a night chart your most malefic planet will be Saturn.

I'll share one with you, for anyone who doesn't understand it.

A friend of mine has a day chart, so her most malefic/troublesome planet l in her natal chart is Saturn. She has Saturn placed in her 1st house, making it also angular. As Saturn's placed in her 1st house its primarily directed towards her body, since the 1st house is associated with health, and body of an individual.

The manifestation of this is she has bouts of anemia, pale, face looks very gaunt at times, weak teeth & problems with teeth, very slim doesn't put weight on easily. This is just how Saturns manifested up to now, shes in her early 30's. I would expect that when she gets older she will suffer with arthritis too, and have more unexpected Saturn related trouble to do with her body when Saturn is activated as a time lord.
I’m confused.

You open with

“If you have a day chart your most malefic planet will be Mars.
If you have a night chart your most malefic planet will be Saturn.”

Then you contradict it with

“A friend of mine has a day chart, so her most malefic/troublesome planet in her natal chart is Saturn

Please clarify. Which do you identify as the most malefic in a day chart, Mars or Saturn?
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Unread 10-12-2019, 12:49 PM
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Re: How has the most negative planet in your chart manifested itself ?

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Originally Posted by IleneK View Post
Im confused.

You open with

If you have a day chart your most malefic planet will be Mars.
If you have a night chart your most malefic planet will be Saturn.

Then you contradict it with

A friend of mine has a day chart, so her most malefic/troublesome planet in her natal chart is Saturn

Please clarify. Which do you identify as the most malefic in a day chart, Mars or Saturn?
Sorry illene its a typo error. My friends got a night chart, her suns in the 2nd house (5am birthtime).
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Unread 10-12-2019, 02:07 PM
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Re: How has the most negative planet in your chart manifested itself ?

I have a day chart, so supposedly Mars is the most malefic one for me. I have Mars at 920' Cancer, conjunct Mercury at 652' Cancer and Midheaven at 1035' Cancer. So Mars is in its fall, angular and in a fairly tight conjunction with Mercury at the very end of the 9th house. Sun is in Gemini 9th. Moon is in Virgo 12th. Descendant in Aries.

I'm not a very energetic or enterprising person, but otherwise I don't feel like my Mars is negatively expressed. In communication I'm persuasive and assertive. Regarding all Mercury-related matters I'm passionate and tireless. In higher education as well as in my career I've generally been lucky. I am asexual, completely lacking sexual attraction to other people, and thus I've never felt like having any sexual relationships (or romantic ones either for that matter). But that's just how I am, it's not something I suffer from or where I feel any sort of lack.
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Unread 10-12-2019, 09:53 PM
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Re: How has the most negative planet in your chart manifested itself ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domna View Post

I have a day chart, so supposedly Mars is the most malefic one for me.
I have Mars at 920' Cancer, conjunct Mercury at 652' Cancer and Midheaven at 1035' Cancer.
So Mars is in its fall, angular and in a fairly tight conjunction with Mercury
at the very end of the 9th house.
Sun is in Gemini 9th. Moon is in Virgo 12th. Descendant in Aries.
HELLENISTIC astrology states that MARS is a NOCTURNAL planet
and
nocturnal planets that are above the horizon in a diurnal chart
are situated contrary to their nature (halb).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domna View Post

I'm not a very energetic or enterprising person, but otherwise
I don't feel like my Mars is negatively expressed.
In communication I'm persuasive and assertive.
Regarding all Mercury-related matters I'm passionate and tireless.
In higher education as well as in my career I've generally been lucky.
I am asexual, completely lacking sexual attraction to other people, and thus
I've never felt like having any sexual relationships
(or romantic ones either for that matter).
But that's just how I am, it's not something I suffer from
or where I feel any sort of lack.
FAQ SECT http://www.projecthindsight.com/

HELLENISTIC DEFINITION OF SECT

To be in Sect, the Sun must be above the horizon
The Sun can only be above the horizon in a Day/diurnal Chart

MOON in a Night Chart may be in Sect either above or below the horizon

Sun determines Diurnal/Nocturnal

(a) The Sun is always in Sect in a Day Chart

(b) The Moon is always in Sect in a Night Chart


ADDITIONAL CONSIDERATIONS
1.) In a diurnal chart the diurnal planets would be more natural in the upper hemisphere
with the Sun (hayz). The diurnal planets are Sun, Jupiter and Saturn.
If any diurnal planets in a diurnal chart are in the lower hemisphere/below the Ascendant/Descendant axis
then although they are in sect, nevertheless
they are considered slightly out of sect and more nocturnal in nature (halb).

If the nocturnal planets in a diurnal chart are below the horizon,
they are out of sect but are still in hayz and so more natural
IN CONTRAST
nocturnal planets that are above the horizon in a diurnal chart
are situated contrary to their nature (halb).

2.) In a nocturnal chart the nocturnal planets are best placed in the upper hemisphere
away from the Sun (hayz).
Any nocturnal planets in the lower hemisphere in a nocturnal chart are still in sect
but are considered slightly out of sect and more diurnal in nature (halb).

If the diurnal planets in a nocturnal chart are below the horizon they are also hayz
so a little more natural
but if they are above the horizon they are situated contrary to their nature nature (halb).

IN SUMMARY

(a) the Sun alone determines Day and Night.

(b) the Sun can only be above the horizon in a Day Chart
(c) the Moon is always out of Sect when the Sun is above the horizon (Diurnal/Day Chart)
(d) the Moon is always in Sect when the Sun is below the horizon (Nocturnal/Night Chart)
(e) therefore if the Sun is below the horizon it is a Nocturnal/Night Chart and
(f) therefore in a Nocturnal/Night Chart the Moon is in Sect whether above or below the Horizon
diurnal = day
nocturnal = night

(a) when above the horizon the Sun is in the upper hemisphere = Day/diurnal
(b) when below the horizon the Sun is in the lower hemisphere = Night/nocturnal
(c) the Moon is in Sect in a Night Chart irrespective of hemisphere and/or horizon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian View Post


What if somenone has the Sun exactly on the Ascendant? Would their chart be neutral?
This is a question often debated

'Ascendant' is the name given to the Eastern section of the Great Circle of the Horizon

If the Sun were visible on the Eastern Horizon then one would define that as Day
Nevertheless there are a number of definitions for both Sunrise and Sunset
- one of which is 'apparent sunrise/sunset'
- Due to atmospheric refraction, sunrise occurs shortly before the sun crosses above the horizon.
Light from the sun is bent, or refracted, as it enters earth's atmosphere.
This effect causes the apparent sunrise to be earlier than the actual sunrise.
Similarly, apparent sunset occurs slightly later than actual sunset.
However, it should be noted that
due to changes in air pressure, relative humidity, and other quantities
no one can predict the exact effects of atmospheric refraction on sunrise and sunset time:
this possible error increases with higher latitudes (closer to the poles).
Official times of Sunrise and Sunset may be found on various astronomical websites.
link to an explanation of sect http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2...ology-of-sect/




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  #6  
Unread 10-12-2019, 10:22 PM
AJ Astrology AJ Astrology is offline
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Re: How has the most negative planet in your chart manifested itself ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post
For the most negative i mean with regards to the sect of your chart.
If you have a day chart your most malefic planet will be Mars.
If you have a night chart your most malefic planet will be Saturn.
Hi Chrysalis,

I don't see where that's necessarily true. If Saturn follows Sun, that's good. If Saturn is between Venus and Jupiter, that's good. If Saturn is in trine or sextile to Venus or Jupiter, that's good. Even a square with Venus or Jupiter can be good if there's reception.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post
A friend of mine has a day chart, so her most malefic/troublesome planet for her, in her natal chart is Saturn. She has Saturn placed in her 1st house, making it also angular. As Saturn's placed in her 1st house its primarily directed towards her body, since the 1st house is associated with health, and body of an individual.

The manifestation of this is she has bouts of anemia, pale, face looks very gaunt at times, weak teeth & problems with teeth, very slim doesn't put weight on easily. This is just how Saturns manifested up to now, shes in her early 30's. I would expect that when she gets older she will suffer with arthritis too, and have more unexpected Saturn related trouble to do with her body when Saturn is activated as a time lord.
You're right for the wrong reasons.

It's Saturn's location in H1 and the fact that Sun is in H2 that is the problem, not because of night/day.

Saturn is occidental, because Sun is west of Saturn and being in H1 for physical appearance usually indicates people of thin, gaunt or lanky stature.

The other health problems are due to Saturn not in aspect with a benefic or Sun who can be a benefic under the right circumstances.

Yes, there is a possibility your friend will suffer arthritis or gout or some other bone ailment like osteoporosis. Granted, women suffer osteoporosis because of hormones and certain types of birth control make it worse, but your friend is likely to be worse off than a woman normally would be. You would need to look at other factors in the chart to know that.
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  #7  
Unread 10-12-2019, 10:32 PM
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Re: How has the most negative planet in your chart manifested itself ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post
Hi Chrysalis,

I don't see where that's necessarily true. If Saturn follows Sun, that's good. If Saturn is between Venus and Jupiter, that's good. If Saturn is in trine or sextile to Venus or Jupiter, that's good. Even a square with Venus or Jupiter can be good if there's reception.

You're right for the wrong reasons.

It's Saturn's location in H1 and the fact that Sun is in H2 that is the problem, not because of night/day.

Saturn is occidental, because Sun is west of Saturn and being in H1 for physical appearance usually indicates people of thin, gaunt or lanky stature.

The other health problems are due to Saturn not in aspect with a benefic or Sun who can be a benefic under the right circumstances.

Yes, there is a possibility your friend will suffer arthritis or gout or some other bone ailment like osteoporosis. Granted, women suffer osteoporosis because of hormones and certain types of birth control make it worse, but your friend is likely to be worse off than a woman normally would be. You would need to look at other factors in the chart to know that.
Thank you for clarifying and putting us all back on an even keel!
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Unread 10-12-2019, 10:38 PM
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Re: How has the most negative planet in your chart manifested itself ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domna View Post
I have a day chart, so supposedly Mars is the most malefic one for me. I have Mars at 920' Cancer, conjunct Mercury at 652' Cancer and Midheaven at 1035' Cancer. So Mars is in its fall, angular and in a fairly tight conjunction with Mercury at the very end of the 9th house. Sun is in Gemini 9th. Moon is in Virgo 12th. Descendant in Aries.
Hi Domna,

You have it backwards. It's Mercury conjunct Mars. Only a lighter planet can aspect a heavier planet.

Mars is not in fall either. Mars is in the house of fall, but not in fall. Mars is exalted at 28 deg Capricorn and in fall at 28 deg Cancer.

Given what you've said, I suspect your Mars might be peregrine.
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Unread 10-12-2019, 11:25 PM
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Re: How has the most negative planet in your chart manifested itself ?

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post

IN SUMMARY

(a) the Sun alone determines Day and Night.

(b) the Sun can only be above the horizon in a Day Chart
(c) the Moon is always out of Sect when the Sun is above the horizon (Diurnal/Day Chart)
(d) the Moon is always in Sect when the Sun is below the horizon (Nocturnal/Night Chart)
(e) therefore if the Sun is below the horizon it is a Nocturnal/Night Chart and
(f) therefore in a Nocturnal/Night Chart the Moon is in Sect whether above or below the Horizon
diurnal = day
nocturnal = night

(a) when above the horizon the Sun is in the upper hemisphere = Day/diurnal
(b) when below the horizon the Sun is in the lower hemisphere = Night/nocturnal
(c) the Moon is in Sect in a Night Chart irrespective of hemisphere and/or horizon
Hi JUPITERASC,

That's all good stuff.

Quote:
This is a question often debated


'Ascendant' is the name given to the Eastern section of the Great Circle of the Horizon

If the Sun were visible on the Eastern Horizon then one would define that as Day
Nevertheless there are a number of definitions for both Sunrise and Sunset
- one of which is 'apparent sunrise/sunset'
- Due to atmospheric refraction, sunrise occurs shortly before the sun crosses above the horizon.
Light from the sun is bent, or refracted, as it enters earth's atmosphere.
This effect causes the apparent sunrise to be earlier than the actual sunrise.
Similarly, apparent sunset occurs slightly later than actual sunset.
However, it should be noted that
due to changes in air pressure, relative humidity, and other quantities
no one can predict the exact effects of atmospheric refraction on sunrise and sunset time:
this possible error increases with higher latitudes (closer to the poles).
Official times of Sunrise and Sunset may be found on various astronomical websites.
link to an explanation of sect http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2...ology-of-sect/

I don't see where that has anything to do with anything.

The positions of planets and points are derived from mathematical equations and not by looking.

The Sumerians and Akkadians and everyone else down to the 2nd Babylonian Empire had observatories to look at celestial phenomenon and predict eclipses. They had tables on clay tablets for the planets, Sun, Moon, constellations and stars to mathematically predict their locations in relation to Earth, including direct and retrograde motion of planets.

After the collapse of Mesopotamian civilization, you have the rise of Greek and Roman civilizations who were scientifically stupid.

The Arabs and Persians preserved a lot of the math, but the Greek, Roman and Medieval astrologers used astrolabes to visibly determine the position of the planets and luminaries.

They did have tables, but they were not mathematically derived, Instead they were rough approximations of where a planet should be based on the apparent speed of the planet. That's why there's a heavy emphasis on whether a planet is "slow" or "fast."

That's also why it's almost impossible to replicate a Medieval chart, because they were only guessing where the planets might be based on their apparent speed and not based on math.

Kepler rediscovered the math used by Mesopotamian civilizations and we use computers that factor in gravity and other considerations to know precisely where a planet is down to a few seconds of arc except for some of the outer planets where the accuracy is a few minutes of arc.

Anyway, "apparent position" is irrelevant and it's highly unlikely that someone's Ascendant would match the position of Sun to the exact minute or second of arc, so Sun is either above or below, and even if it came down to the exact second of arc, seconds are divided by 60 to obtain fractions of a second, and those would be divided by 60 and so on.
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  #10  
Unread 10-13-2019, 12:18 AM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: How has the most negative planet in your chart manifested itself ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post


Hi JUPITERASC,

That's all good stuff.
I don't see where that has anything to do with anything.
The positions of planets and points are derived from mathematical equations and not by looking.

The Sumerians and Akkadians and everyone else down to the 2nd Babylonian Empire had observatories to look at celestial phenomenon and predict eclipses. They had tables on clay tablets for the planets, Sun, Moon, constellations and stars to mathematically predict their locations in relation to Earth, including direct and retrograde motion of planets.

After the collapse of Mesopotamian civilization, you have the rise of Greek and Roman civilizations who were scientifically stupid.

The Arabs and Persians preserved a lot of the math, but the Greek, Roman and Medieval astrologers used astrolabes to visibly determine the position of the planets and luminaries.

They did have tables, but they were not mathematically derived, Instead they were rough approximations of where a planet should be based on the apparent speed of the planet. That's why there's a heavy emphasis on whether a planet is "slow" or "fast."

That's also why it's almost impossible to replicate a Medieval chart, because they were only guessing where the planets might be based on their apparent speed and not based on math.

Kepler rediscovered the math used by Mesopotamian civilizations and we use computers that factor in gravity and other considerations to know precisely where a planet is down to a few seconds of arc except for some of the outer planets where the accuracy is a few minutes of arc.

Anyway, "apparent position" is irrelevant and it's highly unlikely that someone's Ascendant would match the position of Sun to the exact minute or second of arc, so Sun is either above or below, and even if it came down to the exact second of arc, seconds are divided by 60 to obtain fractions of a second, and those would be divided by 60 and so on.
you are correct of course

Always interesting when observing the changes at sunset visually
I prefer rural surroundings trees et al
and often
as I observe subtle changes as sun approaches horizon
air is slightly more chilled as sun disappears gradually below horizon
Summer days in particular are intriguing

as the time between day and night extends it seems
and

It's definitely not full daylight
so presumably then it is night
I find it interesting
to mull over those not so clearcut Day charts and Night charts


nevertheless

If even a sliver of the suns disc is above horizon it is obviously day
just not the same kind of daytime as at noon
just interesting

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=106220
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaRohini View Post

Hi !
Most of the Babylonian and Sumerian writings can be decoded
if people do not let ego come in the way.
Sumerian is actually a language known as Sangam Tamil
which is closely connected to Tamil language spoken in Southern India.
But due to reasons unknown, there has been very meagre research on this.

GOOD NEWS!!
Mathematical mystery of ancient Babylonian clay tablet solved

UNSW Sydney scientists discovered purpose of famous 3700-year old Babylonian clay tablet
revealing it is the world's oldest
and most accurate
trigonometric table
possibly used by ancient mathematical scribes
to calculate how to construct palaces and temples and build canals.

The new research
shows the Babylonians beat the Greeks
to the invention of trigonometry
- the study of triangles
- by more than 1000 years
and reveals
an ancient mathematical sophistication
that had been hidden until now.


Known as Plimpton 322
the small tablet was discovered
in the early 1900s
in what is now southern Iraq

by archaeologist, academic, diplomat and antiquities dealer Edgar Banks,
the person on whom the fictional character Indiana Jones was based.

Plimpton 322 has four columns and 15 rows of numbers written on it
in the cuneiform script of the time using a base 60, or sexagesimal, system.

Plimpton 322 has puzzled mathematicians for more than 70 years
since it was realised it contains a special pattern of numbers called Pythagorean triples
The huge mystery, until now, was its purpose
- why the ancient scribes carried out the complex task
of generating and sorting the numbers on the tablet.
Our research reveals that Plimpton 322 describes the shapes of right-angle triangles
using a novel kind of trigonometry based on ratios, not angles and circles.
It is a fascinating mathematical work that demonstrates undoubted genius.
The tablet not only contains the world's oldest trigonometric table;
it is also the only completely accurate trigonometric table
because of the very different Babylonian approach to arithmetic and geometry.
This means it has great relevance for our modern world.
Babylonian mathematics may have been out of fashion for more than 3000 years
but it has possible practical applications in surveying, computer graphics and education.
This is a rare example of the ancient world teaching us something new
said Dr Daniel Mansfield of the School of Mathematics and Statistics
in the UNSW Faculty of Science.

The new study by Dr Mansfield and UNSW Associate Professor Norman Wildberger
is published in Historia Mathematica
the official journal of the International Commission on the History of Mathematics.
A trigonometric table allows you to use one known ratio of the sides of a right-angle triangle
to determine the other two unknown ratios.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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