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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 09-26-2019, 08:26 AM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Table of essential dignities

Not sure if this is the correct forum, but just want to ask for clarification in reading the table of essential dignities.
Lets take the example of a planet at 6 degree 10 minutes of Aries.
According to the table Jupiter's terms are 0-6 degrees of Aries.
So, the question is this, in the case of the 6 degree 10 minute planet, is it still under the Jupiter terms, or has it already entered the Venus column?
Does the 6 degrees of Jupiter's terms cover 6 degrees 59 minutes, or only 5 degrees 59?
Thank you.

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Unread 09-26-2019, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
Not sure if this is the correct forum, but just want to ask for clarification in reading the table of essential dignities.
Lets take the example of a planet at 6 degree 10 minutes of Aries.
According to the table Jupiter's terms are 0-6 degrees of Aries.
So, the question is this, in the case of the 6 degree 10 minute planet, is it still under the Jupiter terms, or has it already entered the Venus column?
Does the 6 degrees of Jupiter's terms cover 6 degrees 59 minutes, or only 5 degrees 59?
Thank you.
Hi ElenaJ

I believe it covers 0 - 5.59. Technically if I could go back in time as an editor.......it would be my first edit......this is one of the most common easily confused problems, caused by the way it is written.

Opal
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  #3  
Unread 09-26-2019, 01:23 PM
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Re: Table of essential dignities

"The degree in the terms table is the degree that the bounds start."

'Using Dignities in Astrology' by Charles Obert

MD
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Unread 09-26-2019, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondancing View Post
"The degree in the terms table is the degree that the bounds start."

'Using Dignities in Astrology' by Charles Obert

MD
Could you please clarify using 0.00. Thank you
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Unread 09-26-2019, 02:45 PM
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Re: Table of essential dignities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post
Could you please clarify using 0.00. Thank you
Not sure I understand the question. Thought I was agreeing with you but I remembered that quote I read and finally found it. Author did not clarify.

MD
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Unread 09-26-2019, 02:51 PM
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Re: Table of essential dignities

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post

Not sure if this is the correct forum, but
just want to ask for clarification
in reading the table of essential dignities.
Lets take the example of a planet at 6 degree 10 minutes of Aries.
According to the table Jupiter's terms are 0-6 degrees of Aries.
So, the question is this, in the case of the 6 degree 10 minute planet,
is it still under the Jupiter terms, or has it already entered the Venus column?
Does the 6 degrees of Jupiter's terms cover 6 degrees 59 minutes, or only 5 degrees 59?
Thank you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post

Hi ElenaJ
I believe it covers 0 - 5.59.
Technically if I could go back in time as an editor
.......it would be my first edit
......this is one of the most common easily confused problems,
caused by the way it is written.
Opal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondancing View Post

"The degree in the terms table is the degree that the bounds start."
'Using Dignities in Astrology' by Charles Obert MD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post


Could you please clarify using 0.00. Thank you
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post

That would depend
on the system of reckoning: 0 to 29 or 1 to 30.

0 to 29 is a modern thing
used mostly to make it easier for software programs to calculate charts.

and dr. farr also highlights BobZemcos comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post

Right, it is through the entire degree.

One thing, though, is the translation of much of the older degree numbers
to the numeration we use in our charts today.

We use 0 through 29:59;
the old numeration was 1 through 30.

That means,

when translating a degree in an oldtime list, to our current sign numeration
we must subtract from the oldtime list;
ie, exatation of Moon at 3 Taurus in the oldtime lists
translates to the 2nd degree of Taurus being the exaltatio degree
of the Moon in our current sign numeration.

We can easily get misled about a degree and its meanings/connections
if we do not take this into account, when referencing the oldtime degree lists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post

Problem with the skyscript list is that the numbers (degrees) given
have NOT been corrected for our modern sign numeration!
Now, skyscript DOES append a note that the degrees given in their tables
must be taken back 1 degree to match modern sign numeration;
however I wonder why skyscript has not simply adjusted their tables
to the modern numeration??
(as I have done, here on AW in my table of elevated and pitted degrees)
Quote:
Originally Posted by serafin5 View Post

Thanks JupiterAsc for the info on degrees!
I'm not sure if you are familiar with http://www.skyscript.co.uk/deginf1.html#note ?
Deborah Houlding has a "Compiled and Annotated Table of Degree Influences"
which is soooo awesome!
This is a comprehensive list of every sign
and every degree of every sign
saying if it's dark or smokey or welled, etc.;
you should check it out.
Blessings to you!
Serafin5
HOWEVER the notation requires some explanation
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post

The skyscript degree list CAN BE used, IF you follow the note to the list
and take every degree listed back by 1
(to match our current charts)
I just question why they haven't simply corrected their list to our current sign numeration
(like I did here, with the elevated and pitted degree list)

BobZemco likewise highlights issues relevant to the notation

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post

That would depend on the system of reckoning:
0 to 29 or 1 to 30.
0 to 29 is a modern thing used mostly to make it easier for software programs to calculate charts
.

dr. farr - thanks for clarifying with more detail
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
....didn't the Arabs "invent" zero? Or did they co-opt it from India?
Wouldn't the reason have been in advances in mathematics?
QUOTE

A BRIEF HISTORY OF ZERO

http://www.mediatinker.com/blog/archives/008821.html

'...Once upon a time there was no zero. Of course people knew if they had nothing, but there was no mathematical notation for it. Zero was independently invented only three times.

The first recorded zero is attributed to the Babylonians in the 3rd century BC. A long period followed when no one else used a zero place holder. But then the Mayans, halfway around the world in Central America, independently invented zero in the fourth century CE....'

'...The final independent invention of zero in India was long debated by scholars, but seems to be set around the middle of the fifth century. It spread to Cambodia around the end of the 7th century. From India it moved into China and then to the Islamic countries. Zero finally reached western Europe in the 12th century.

Before you continue reading the history of zero, please be sure you understand these underlying concepts : Number vs Numeral; Invent vs Discover & Place Value Notation...'



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  #7  
Unread 09-26-2019, 02:59 PM
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Re: Table of essential dignities

J.A. Even reading all that I still didn't know how to answer the question. Over my head. :-)
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Unread 09-26-2019, 03:05 PM
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Re: Table of essential dignities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondancing View Post


J.A. Even reading all that I still didn't know how to answer the question. Over my head. :-)

Ours is a random astrological learning forum
with no specific "curriculum"/coherent "lessons"
we are all students on a level playing field
time is required to read, study and vigilently practice the information provided
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  #9  
Unread 09-26-2019, 06:08 PM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Table of essential dignities

I'm attaching the dignities table.
To stay as simple as possible, as an example a planet is 3 degrees aires, so it is in the terms of Jupiter, who covers 0-6.
The question is, if the planet is 6 degrees 15 minutes, is it still in Jupiter's terms, or is it now in the terms of Venus?
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File Type: jpg TermsTable.jpg (82.1 KB, 5 views)
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Unread 09-26-2019, 07:11 PM
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Re: Table of essential dignities

Notice that the numbers of the terms go from 1 - 30. This translates to the most common charts we use as 0 - 29. Jupiter will hold the terms until 6'00'00 when Venus takes over.

It's similar to how sabian symbols are counted.
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Unread 09-26-2019, 07:14 PM
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Re: Table of essential dignities

The answer is found at the end of the sign, where the term lord rules from, say, 27-30. His rulership goes TO 29°60', but not to 30°00' which would be 00°00' of the next sign.

So Jupiter's term extends through 5°59', having begun at 00°00', the First degree of the sign. From 1°00'-1°59' is the Second Degree....

When, in horary, it says " first three degrees rising", it means the degrees 0-1°, 1-2°, and 2-3°. Therefore, 3°46' is NOT "too early" because it is in the. FOURTH degree.

Last edited by greybeard; 09-26-2019 at 07:32 PM.
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  #12  
Unread 09-26-2019, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
The answer is found at the end of the sign, where the term lord rules from, say, 27-30. His rulership goes TO 29°60', but not to 30°00' which would be 00°00' of the next sign.

So Jupiter's term extends through 5°59', having begun at 00°00', the First degree of the sign. From 1°00'-1°59' is the Second Degree....

When, in horary, it says " first three degrees rising", it means the degrees 0-1°, 1-2°, and 2-3°. Therefore, 3°46' is NOT "too early" because it is in the. FOURTH degree.
I did not realize there was a 29.60, thought it went to 29.59 then to 0.00
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Unread 09-26-2019, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondancing View Post
Not sure I understand the question. Thought I was agreeing with you but I remembered that quote I read and finally found it. Author did not clarify.

MD
Thanks Moondancing, it is confusing, that’s why I asked to clarify with decimals......now, there is a .60 I have never seen that expressed before. I wish all astrological writers would use the hours minutes and seconds......there is much confusion

I have read Piercethevale explain the Sabian numbers more than three times......

There should be a standard.🥴
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Unread 09-26-2019, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
I'm attaching the dignities table.
To stay as simple as possible, as an example a planet is 3 degrees aires, so it is in the terms of Jupiter, who covers 0-6.
The question is, if the planet is 6 degrees 15 minutes, is it still in Jupiter's terms, or is it now in the terms of Venus?
From looking at it, I would say 10.00 is under and 10.01 is over....but it is still not for every circumstance it seems......

Good question ElenaJ
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  #15  
Unread 09-27-2019, 08:08 AM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Table of essential dignities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post
From looking at it, I would say 10.00 is under and 10.01 is over....but it is still not for every circumstance it seems......

Good question ElenaJ
This has been on my mind for a while, and it does make a difference when reading a chart, to determine if the significators are in or not in reception.
Thanks to all for their input. This forum is a marvellous resource!
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  #16  
Unread 10-14-2019, 12:06 AM
AJ Astrology AJ Astrology is offline
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Re: Table of essential dignities

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
I'm attaching the dignities table.
To stay as simple as possible, as an example a planet is 3 degrees aires, so it is in the terms of Jupiter, who covers 0-6.
The question is, if the planet is 6 degrees 15 minutes, is it still in Jupiter's terms, or is it now in the terms of Venus?
Hi Elena,

I see your confusion and I get what people said because I did some programming for a time.

Database header files were originally 128 Bytes, but the file starts at Byte "0" so it's actually 0-127.

Later, the header doubled in size to 256 Bytes but you start at "0" so it's 0-255.

You can see that best with ASCII codes for characters, because there's 256 codes/characters but they're numbered 0-255.

Many of the Greek astrologers used Egyptian terms and Maternus lists them like this:

Jupiter 6
Venus 12
Mercury 20
Mars 25
Saturn 30

From that we can determine that each has this many degrees:

Jupiter 6
Venus 6
Mercury 8
Mars 5
Saturn 5
Total = 30 degrees

We can also see they are numbering these from 1-30 degrees and not 0-29 degrees because Saturn ends at 30 degrees.

On a scale of 1-30 degrees then:

Jupiter 1-6 deg 59'
Venus 7-12 deg 59'
Mercury 13-20 deg 59'
Mars 21-25 deg 59'
Saturn 26-30 deg 59'

On a scale of 0-29 degrees it would be:

Jupiter 0-5 deg 59'
Venus 6-11 deg 59'
Mercury 12-19 deg 59'
Mars 20-24 deg 59'
Saturn 25-29 deg 59'
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Unread 10-14-2019, 01:59 AM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Table of essential dignities

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post
Hi Elena,

I see your confusion and I get what people said because I did some programming for a time.

Database header files were originally 128 Bytes, but the file starts at Byte "0" so it's actually 0-127.

Later, the header doubled in size to 256 Bytes but you start at "0" so it's 0-255.

You can see that best with ASCII codes for characters, because there's 256 codes/characters but they're numbered 0-255.

Many of the Greek astrologers used Egyptian terms and Maternus lists them like this:

Jupiter 6
Venus 12
Mercury 20
Mars 25
Saturn 30

From that we can determine that each has this many degrees:

Jupiter 6
Venus 6
Mercury 8
Mars 5
Saturn 5
Total = 30 degrees

We can also see they are numbering these from 1-30 degrees and not 0-29 degrees because Saturn ends at 30 degrees.

On a scale of 1-30 degrees then:

Jupiter 1-6 deg 59'
Venus 7-12 deg 59'
Mercury 13-20 deg 59'
Mars 21-25 deg 59'
Saturn 26-30 deg 59'

On a scale of 0-29 degrees it would be:

Jupiter 0-5 deg 59'
Venus 6-11 deg 59'
Mercury 12-19 deg 59'
Mars 20-24 deg 59'
Saturn 25-29 deg 59'
Thank you, this seems to make a lot of sense. So a planet at 6 degrees 00 would be actually iunder Venus, no longer in Jupiter.
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Unread 10-15-2019, 01:22 AM
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Re: Table of essential dignities

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
Thank you, this seems to make a lot of sense. So a planet at 6 degrees 00 would be actually iunder Venus, no longer in Jupiter.
Hi ElenaJ,

Yes, that would be correct for 0-29. If you're using software like Morinus or Kepler or Solarfire they all start with "0" for signs, decans and terms.

For 0-29 or 1-30 neither is right or wrong, it's just something you need to be aware of when reading texts and using software.

I think people are more comfortable with 0-29 deg 59' than with 1-30 deg 59'.
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Unread 10-16-2019, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post
I did not realize there was a 29.60, thought it went to 29.59 then to 0.00
You are correct. But recall that it goes to 29°59'59", which is pretty darn close to 00°00'00". 29°60' are not, nor is there a 30°59' if using signs as your measure.

Last edited by greybeard; 10-16-2019 at 01:11 AM.
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Unread 10-18-2019, 12:28 AM
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Re: Table of essential dignities

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
You are correct. But recall that it goes to 29°59'59", which is pretty darn close to 00°00'00". 29°60' are not, nor is there a 30°59' if using signs as your measure.

Hi greybeard,


Some ancient astrologers don't believe a planet has strength until it's at least 5 deg into a sign (or 4 deg if you're using 0-29). Apparently, they don't apply that to terms or decans, because a planet is in a term or not. That doesn't seem to be logical to me and I question whether the 5 deg rule is appropriate.
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Unread 10-18-2019, 09:28 AM
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Re: Table of essential dignities

Seems to me that if a planet "is in a term or not", it is also in a sign or not.
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Unread 10-18-2019, 11:31 PM
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Re: Table of essential dignities

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Seems to me that if a planet "is in a term or not", it is also in a sign or not.
Hi greybeard,

Some of the Greek astrologers consider a planet weak until it reaches 4 deg (0-29) then strongest at 14 deg and then its strength fades as it reaches the end of the sign.

That logic isn't applied to decans or terms. If Mars is the decan or term, then the impact of Mars on a planet in a decan or term of Mars is the same for every degree of the term/decan. That just seems inconsistent to me.
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