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Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


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  #26  
Unread 05-15-2019, 07:09 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

Astrology is mind-boggling. Those who don't want their minds boggled are inclined to dismiss it as subjective delusion, to avoid having to at least admit "there's something to it".

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  #27  
Unread 05-15-2019, 07:14 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

A clock can tell us WHEN something is going to happen, but doesn't CAUSE it to happen. Same with the astrological clock, which is entirely dependent on chronometry.
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  #28  
Unread 05-15-2019, 07:17 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by aldebaran View Post
Plotin stated that defying the results of astrology is, obviously, ridiculous; however, the way the astrologers described the phenomena "one planet starrying at each other", etc was absurd; the Planets were rather like letters showing the meaning of events.

Symbolic and therefore synchronous astrology is old, ancient philosophy was so diverse that for each group a different interpretation from scratch was needed.

Both the material influence or the synchronity can bear space to human freedom, or not.

I suppose a very radical material influence (perhaps like Stoicism?) would not differ much from a notion of total Synchronity.

Total synchronity is specially difficult to harmonize with freedom, but some developed the concept that events are necessary, yet free; like, we are from eternity constrained to chose freely exactly what we happen to chose.

I find an elegant attempt to consider freedom(or, perhaps, each different kind of freedom) part of the whole cosmological scheme - just as there is mars, moon, pisces, capricorn, mercury, there is freedom, one or more kind; and the world would be partially free by the very existence of multiple possibilities, which would be a definition of freedom.
Very elegantly stated. Are you a writer or philosopher by profession?
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  #29  
Unread 05-15-2019, 07:37 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

"I don't believe in astrology; I'm a Sagittarian and we're sceptical." -{Arthur C. Clarke}
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  #30  
Unread 05-15-2019, 07:53 PM
aldebaran aldebaran is offline
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by Therese View Post
. Where's the arrogance in this? I'm sorry, I'm European, over here it is normal for people with different perspectives to discuss things.
"People don't know that when they are arrogant and skeptical against Astrology, they are basing, historically and episthemologically, their arrogance on this very argument."

I wasn't reffering to yourself when I mentioned arrogance, I rather complimented you for the mention of this Hume passage. And once you know the passage, you clearly could not be among the people that don't know it.

Once we are on a forum of astrology I supposed you believe in astrology, and I didn't think you would interpret it as referring to yourself. It would be a good thing if freedom of discussion was finally guaranteed in all continents, including Europe. You don't have to be inelegant, I wasn't towards yourself.

Quote:
It seems we didn't read the same Critique of Pure Reason. In my version, Kant tries to go beyond the "in the mind" or "in the outer world" split by introducing his a priory synthetic judgement, and actually gave a shot at defending causality.
The idea is that causality is a thing of the mind that can be applied to mind-sciences like mathematics in an absolute sense but to the outer world only in a relative.

Kant focused on denying heavily dense metaphysic books of his time, that proved the existence of God and other things with arguments;
Nowadays people don't take his book much seriously because it's too metaphysical for our times.
However, since Kant the practice of separating "mind things" and "outer things" has being kept, and that is an issue.

There are inside sciences like Psychology and outer sciences like Physics - but you can't mix it.

The rule of not mixing it simply sends to garbage thousands of history of humankind science&philosophy, including much of astrology and, of course, the whole of mythology.
Kant is not read seriously anymore, because modern society denies metaphysics, but he is still the metaphysical basis for denying metaphysics...

We could say that the common sense of a person under modern society deny metaphysics, and for that reason no one needs Kant - that would be denied altogether.

Modern common sense believes there is an "outer material world, reached by the senses" and an "inner world, high illusory, created by the brain". In ancient times, only the Epicureans, perhaps, believed in such non-sense.

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And what makes you want to bring a glass of water? And what will happen when you bring it, if anything?
The example was to connect the inside and outside and show that inward experience can't be disconnected from the so called "outer world of the physical senses". All this thing of naming an "outer world", fruit of the "senses" is in itself very grumpy, too aristotelic to be considered skeptic.

Kant's idea was never of being skeptic, afterall, but to create a new sort of metaphysics that forbided theology&mysticism and yet allowed natural sciences...
Since Christianism there were many philosophers that tried to save a part of science&philosophy from being heretic and in exchange of this accept to forbid or ridicularize other kinds. Kant is part of this unfortunate history, which even when wins, harms.


Quote:
As I see it, astrology is quite alive and kicking. It could have perished when the explanations attached to it became outdated. But it did not. Why? Maybe because astrology works quite well without those theories?
Astrology have always been more practical than theoretic, indeed. But almost all ancient philosophy never had the chance to become outdated, the books were burned after the dogmas emerged and near nothing was left.
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  #31  
Unread 05-15-2019, 09:01 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

Each mind creates an "outer-world" for itself. When enough minds reach agreement on what they have created for themselves, they label it "Reality".
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  #32  
Unread 05-16-2019, 01:09 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

[/Quote]


Astrology have always been more practical than theoretic, indeed. But almost all ancient philosophy never had the chance to become outdated, the books were burned after the dogmas emerged and near nothing was left.[/QUOTE]

Rumor has it they still exist in the underground vaults of the Vatican.
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  #33  
Unread 05-16-2019, 02:19 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

Mars does not cause me to become angry. I do. Just 'cause.

No one is denying that things have causes; I just asked a thought-provoking question: What if....the planets don't cause anything?

In modern science there is a thing called "parsimony". It is considered to be one of the essential attributes of a new theory or model. Basically it says that the simplest explanation for a phenomenon is probably the truest.

And an astrology without planetary causation of human phenomena best meets that test of simplicity.
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  #34  
Unread 05-16-2019, 02:44 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

14th Century William of Ockham is credited with the "acams razor" hypothesis: Simpler, with fewer assumptions, is better.
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  #35  
Unread 05-16-2019, 02:53 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

"....there is no fatal necessity in the stars, but that they incline, rather than compel." -{Sir Francis Bacon}
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  #36  
Unread 05-16-2019, 04:59 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
A clock can tell us WHEN something is going to happen, but doesn't CAUSE it to happen. Same with the astrological clock, which is entirely dependent on chronometry.
Do you do astrology based on time or do you do it based on planetary placement? Yes, the second is related to the first, but you are looking for planetary causation. Astrology without causality is not astrology, because all the power is given to something else than the planets.
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  #37  
Unread 05-16-2019, 05:01 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
"....there is no fatal necessity in the stars, but that they incline, rather than compel." -{Sir Francis Bacon}

They do neither.
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  #38  
Unread 05-16-2019, 05:06 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Astrology without planetary influence.... Siriusly
It's ridequuleus.
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  #39  
Unread 05-16-2019, 05:06 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Do you do astrology based on time or do you do it based on planetary placement? Yes, the second is related to the first, but you are looking for planetary causation. Astrology without causality is not astrology, because all the power is given to something else than the planets.
Not so. Is power (?) necessary?

There is an alternative to power.

Last edited by greybeard; 05-16-2019 at 05:08 AM.
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  #40  
Unread 05-16-2019, 05:09 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Not so. Is power (?) necessary?
A very great power and mechanism is needed to defend the claim there is any relation between the planets and human affairs. I am asking, if it is not cosmological objects, what is it?
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  #41  
Unread 05-16-2019, 05:24 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

No power whatsoever is required. As long as we think in terms of causality, we are stuck with power in some form. If we put causality aside, no power or means of transmission is needed.

Can we conceive of a system where planets and human affairs are correlated without causative linkage?
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  #42  
Unread 05-16-2019, 05:40 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
No power whatsoever is required. As long as we think in terms of causality, we are stuck with power in some form. If we put causality aside, no power or means of transmission is needed.

Can we conceive of a system where planets and human affairs are correlated without causative linkage?
What causes that system with such spectacular correlations? If it is correlation and not causation, then it just means there is a hidden variable that is causing both? What is it?

Siriusly, this thread made me lose all of my cazimi Mercury conjunct an angle brain cells.
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  #43  
Unread 05-16-2019, 06:24 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
What causes that system with such spectacular correlations? If it is correlation and not causation, then it just means there is a hidden variable that is causing both? What is it?

Siriusly, this thread made me lose all of my cazimi Mercury conjunct an angle brain cells.
There really are gods and goddesses running our lives. There. Problem solved. May Zeus be with you.
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  #44  
Unread 05-16-2019, 07:15 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
They do neither.
I would say your chart inclined you towards that opinion.
My chart inclined me to post the above opinion. [IMO]

Last edited by david starling; 05-16-2019 at 08:14 AM.
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  #45  
Unread 05-16-2019, 07:16 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Do you do astrology based on time or do you do it based on planetary placement? Yes, the second is related to the first, but you are looking for planetary causation. Astrology without causality is not astrology, because all the power is given to something else than the planets.
Planetary placement is based on time. That much, we know for certain.

Last edited by david starling; 05-16-2019 at 07:19 AM.
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  #46  
Unread 05-16-2019, 09:46 AM
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Planetary placement is based on time. That much, we know for certain.
Actually, it is not. It is based on gravity. That much, we know for certain.
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  #47  
Unread 05-16-2019, 09:49 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Actually, it is not. It is based on gravity. That much, we know for certain.
Try drawing a chart for a person or event with no time or date given.
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  #48  
Unread 05-16-2019, 10:16 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

A chart in-and-of itself isn't causal, it's descriptive. WHY it's able to be descriptive, is open to speculation. One possibility, the magnetic field, which includes gravity.
But the Why isn't necessary for drawing a chart and deciphering what it can describe.
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  #49  
Unread 05-16-2019, 11:31 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: The clockwork of Astrology

I just lost a whole bunch of stuff. I'll re-write later.
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  #50  
Unread 05-16-2019, 11:53 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: The clockwork of Astrology

I interpret the "incline versus compel" quote to mean you don't have to follow what your chart has to say about you. A domineering family , for one example, can bully a child into a life that's in conflict with what the chart suggests would be much happier, more satisfying existence. Or, the culture one is born into can make it nearly impossible to "be oneself", based on one's chart description.
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