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  #76  
Unread 03-26-2019, 09:33 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Dirius, I do not understand your argument, first you claim

''True, though Firmicus or Valens do add the exception that fate can be changed by God's will.''

And then you quote as argument ''the gods do not nullify the Fates; rather they confirm their effective control of human affairs with unbreakable oaths''. If anything, this quote is another argument to be added to the preceding, which is that the gods are merely actors, and that the benefits they give too are fixed and unchangeable, by which he means present in the birth chart.

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  #77  
Unread 03-26-2019, 09:35 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
No, I don't think so. As I demonstrated it is perfectly fine to say that elections exist and are possible, people ''elect'' for business, for planting crops, for travel, they organize everything on certain schedules, all this even without knowledge of astrology, but it's quite stretching to say that you can answer particular questions in physical manner, just because the preceding is possible. I have no problem with this kind of electional astrology based on common sense, but as I said, particulars can be easily investigated from nativities (the ambient at the very time of conception which determines the genetic admixture of the seed from the parents and therefore our biology, and the very time of birth which for the most part indicates it) and universals (whether through the influence of terrain, weather or the political systems in authority) in this manner.

In my OP, I mean that electional astrology as this type of procrastination characterized by observing a lucky minute on a certain day, which is without any obvious natural benefit, rather than to act as soon as possible with common sense, since the daily motions of the stars do not control or indicate all minute particulars, which is quite unfounded in argumentation, and frankly impossible. Of course, I am well aware that astrologers will insist on the non-procrastinating part of their work (that involves time range), but it's very doubtful they do not precisely encourage it, for the aforementioned reasons, if anything, the average person needs more internal locus of control in matters pertaining to his destiny, and one would be even more successful in his affairs if he combines the ''resisting faculty with the prognostic''.
But then here you are referring to elective astrology done in a manner which does not consult the natal chart, unlike the number of methods employed by Hellens (which by searching for suitable times would be considered a form of election), and comparing to Horary.

While I certainly agree elective isn't practiced today in modern circles as it should, the possibility the ancients did apply certain theorems that do not include the birth chart are also present. For example when Valens advises that beginning something when the Moon transits the nodes would result in an incomplete endeavour. This type of astrology not based on natal readings has existed for long.

When it comes to Horary, or the matter of interrogations, its clear intent is to pursue information that may not be related to the radical chart, such as when you inquire about a 3r party (which is usually the case). Seems to me the answers of Horary aren't that mcuh related to the querent, in the sense that what you ask is about this object or person whose chart you will not read. When you ask about getting a job, you are asking whether a particular employer whose chart you do not have will respond to you


- I do agree with you generalised questions in Horary are not worth it, and should not be pursued ("will I ever get married?"). However it seems to me that this question ultimately fail and are generally discouraged by serious horarists. Most of them don't seem to work for what I've seen.
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  #78  
Unread 03-26-2019, 09:42 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Dirius, I do not understand your argument, first you claim

''True, though Firmicus or Valens do add the exception that fate can be changed by God's will.''

And then you quote as argument ''the gods do not nullify the Fates; rather they confirm their effective control of human affairs with unbreakable oaths''. If anything, this quote is another argument to be added to the preceding, which is that the gods are merely actors, and that the benefits they give too are fixed and unchangeable, by which he means present in the birth chart.
Unless my interpretation is wrong, its says the Gods created the laws, but do not nullify the fates so men would follow the law (who would follow a law if the God's played an impartial role in changing the fates at convinience?)- while fates are effective in managing human affairs as they are. Then this is compared with Zeus story of the golden chain, which shows Zeus can break any law, just chooses not to.
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  #79  
Unread 03-26-2019, 09:44 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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And Jung. I can't say what I think of his work here without getting banned, but I'm not a fan.
We should add archetypes and synchronicity to the list.
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Unread 03-26-2019, 09:47 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Unless my interpretation is wrong, its says the Gods created the laws, but do not nullify the fates so men would follow the law (who would follow a law if the God's played an impartial role in changing the fates at convinience?)- while fates are effective in managing human affairs as they are. Then this is compared with Zeus story of the golden chain, which shows Zeus can break any law, just chooses not to.
Ok, so what you are saying they are capable of doing it, but they will never ever do so, is this like the Catholic Christian God?
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  #81  
Unread 03-26-2019, 10:01 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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I think you mean the 1960s, cos that's when I started. Margaret Hone's Modern Textbook of Astrology figured heavily into it as she gave wonderfully clear explanations of how to construct a chart, determine planetary positions, use logarithmic tables, and houses. Thank you, Mrs Hone!

Tools: ephemeris, books of longitude and latitude, books of time changes, tables of houses, logarithmic tables, paper, pen or pencil, and compass.

It'd take a couple of hours to do up a chart in those days, and a knowledge of maths and astronomy, so the barrier to entry, so to speak, was considerably higher than it is today.

What we didn't have were traditional texts. There was some research in that field going on, but the writings tended to be scholarly critical editions that ended up in university libraries, usually in Latin, at a cost of several hundred dollars per volume.

So I was stuck with modern astrology. Some of which made sense, and some of which seemed like 'okay, this is right, this is right, this bit looks like it's papered over, but it doesn't fit and I don't know what does'. And Jung. I can't say what I think of his work here without getting banned, but I'm not a fan. 'Synthesising' a chart was a big deal, and I'm not sure anyone ever managed to do it, because I don't think it's possible, and I'm not sure it even means anything. People's lives tend to be a whole lot messier than that, and astrology is NOT primarily a psychological pursuit.

Horary and mundane were virtually unheard of, as were elections, so it was birth charts, solar and lunar returns, and progressions, and the progressions never worked. And way too much emphasis on the outer planets (that hasn't changed).

I persevered for reasons that would offend the non- religious and that I don't care to share here, but I knew there was something more to it, though by the 1980s I was pretty disillusioned. Luckily, the trad renewal was starting to happen. Luckily, I lived quite near to Robert Zoller.

Stuff finally started making sense.

Software is great. While I don't use Solar Fire anymore, that was the first comprehensive astrology programme to hit the market. My registration number was - 93.
Wow that's an historic registration number
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  #82  
Unread 03-26-2019, 10:06 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Ok, so what you are saying they are capable of doing it, but they will never ever do so, is this like the Catholic Christian God?
As I said before in my original post, its reading between the lines.

The implication that the authors bring to the table is that the creator, or prime mover, or Gods, or whatever, while not prone to interfere in human affairs leaving men to the jurisdiction of fate, can do so if they wish to. This does open the possibility that, while fate is solid and unmovable, isn't exactly unchangable. When we look at the myths of the gods (which are the origin of many of the attributes of the planets) they intercede on human behalf all the time, which is what leads to worship and prayer.
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  #83  
Unread 03-26-2019, 10:22 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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As I said before in my original post, its reading between the lines.

The implication that the authors bring to the table is that the creator, or prime mover, or Gods, or whatever, while not prone to interfere in human affairs leaving men to the jurisdiction of fate, can do so if they wish to. This does open the possibility that, while fate is solid and unmovable, isn't exactly unchangable. When we look at the myths of the gods (which are the origin of many of the attributes of the planets) they intercede on human behalf all the time, which is what leads to worship and prayer.
What a scholastic reading of clear-cut passages that say men's benefit from worship and prayer is always predestined. When Calvinism with its espousal of predestination emerged in the 16th century, its detractors like Melanchthon accused it of bringing ''Stoic ideas into the church'' and upholding ''the fanatical necessity of all things''. I am giving this religious analogy, but this is precisely what the Stoics and their followers like Manilius and Valens describe, albeit for the purpose of astrology, rather than ''unconditional election''.
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  #84  
Unread 03-26-2019, 10:40 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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What a scholastic reading of clear-cut passages that say men's benefit from worship and prayer is always predestined. When Calvinism with its espousal of predestination emerged in the 16th century, its detractors like Melanchthon accused it of bringing ''Stoic ideas into the church'' and upholding ''the fanatical necessity of all things''. I am giving this religious analogy, but this is precisely what the Stoics and their followers like Manilius and Valens describe, albeit for the purpose of astrology, rather than ''unconditional election''.
I never said that. What I said is that its the belief that the God's can intercede in someone's behalf is what leads to worship and prayer in the first place, otherwise people wouldn't waste time on it if there wasn't something that would lead them to believe it could happen. I didn't say the benefit of worship and prayer would come to those that didn't have it stored in fate already, much less from Valens point of view.

The reason people believe in worship and prayer, is because the myths portray the gods as willing to intercede on human behalf. While Valens does deny this to ever had happened, does preclude the possibility that it could (because as it is stated, Zeus can break the law if he wishes), while at the same time the myths seem to back this up.
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Unread 03-26-2019, 10:47 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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I never said that. What I said is that its the belief that the God's can intercede in someone's behalf is what leads to worship and prayer in the first place, otherwise people wouldn't waste time on it if there wasn't something that would lead them to believe it could happen. I didn't say the benefit of worship and prayer would come to those that didn't have it stored in fate already, much less from Valens point of view.
Are you saying that Valens is a molinist? In any case, you may be right, it doesn't make a difference to me really. Fate is unfalsifiable concept.
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Unread 03-26-2019, 11:00 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Are you saying that Valens is a molinist? In any case, you may be right, it doesn't make a difference to me really.

Fate is unfalsifiable concept.
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  #87  
Unread 03-26-2019, 11:09 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Are you saying that Valens is a molinist? In any case, you may be right, it doesn't make a difference to me really. Fate is unfalsifiable concept.
Not at all. What I'm pointing out is just a fatal flaw in his argument by leaving up a variable that can potentially contradict his entire premise. His reasoning is that the variable simply chooses not to act. In contrast, for example, when christianity rolls in it embraces this variable not only as a possibility, but actually encourages it as an occurance.

Look I'm not actually saying Valens is wrong. But reading between the lines, you can draw conclusions that may contradict his original intent. Isn't that the whole point of the topic? that we re-examine the knowledge that was passed to us by the ancients?
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Unread 03-26-2019, 11:28 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Not at all. What I'm pointing out is just a fatal flaw in his argument by leaving up a variable that can potentially contradict his entire premise. His reasoning is that the variable simply chooses not to act. In contrast, for example, when christianity rolls in it embraces this variable not only as a possibility, but actually encourages it as an occurance.

Look I'm not actually saying Valens is wrong. But reading between the lines, you can draw conclusions that may contradict his original intent. Isn't that the whole point of the topic? that we re-examine the knowledge that was passed to us by the ancients?
People are free to believe whatever they want, but my post was on astrology, not religion.
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  #89  
Unread 03-27-2019, 02:13 AM
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But what is this based on? The Mesopotamians believed that the planets were gods, or omens from the gods. Sure, they wrote down all kinds of planetary observations; but fundamentally Nergal (Mars) brought warfare and drought-- not as a prediction based upon those observations-- but because this was the god Nergal's nature. The personalities of the Mesopotamian gods preceded astrology.
I can't imagine how many times you are going to defend this - human myths preceding planet that is billions of years old with so particular and obvious colour indicating drought, war and blood, rather than the reverse. It probably tops my list.

Your argument is naive also for a second reason. Ridiculous beliefs that no sane person holds today, had an important evolutionary role in the development of society and human affairs including the sciences. Thus, astrology being practiced in religious form by these primitive people is no more argument for its religiosity than chemistry not being scientific because of its origins in oriental god-fearing alchemists.

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  #90  
Unread 03-27-2019, 06:22 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Petosiris, unfortunately, insults do not make your argument. Facts and reason do.

I don't know how much ancient mythology you have read, or how many scholarly discussions of it.

Obviously the myths do not precede the origin of the solar system! What a strange idea! Although some myths do talk about the origins of the heavens.

We know from Homer and Hesiod et al. that myths about the Greek gods long pre-dated the introduction of astrology. Also, scholars of ancient languages and history inform us that a lot of Greco-Roman mythology originally diffused from Mesopotamia. With the introduction of astrology from Mesopotamia, the planetary gods already had an accumulation of mythology, and they picked up more of it from the Greeks.

Again, Mercury today rules liars and thieves because this was the nature of the young god Mercury, a trickster.

The planet Mars, which I think we discussed previously, is not actually the color of blood. It is closer to the color of fire, which was the pre-astrology ancient Greek name for it: Pyroeis.

But even so, note the cultural ascriptions you've placed on the planet. Ancient people might just as easily have identified blood as the source of life, a fitting sacrifice to the gods, women's menses, or associated it with the prehistoric use of red ochre (probably symbolizing rebirth.) There's nothing intrinsic or inherently logical in deciding that the simple color red must mean that the planet Mars thereby symbolizes warfare. That's culture, not nature; and certainly not some kind of exclusive logic.

Your second paragraph is clearly angry, but also confused. I think you want to put astrology on a rational footing that just wasn't there during its origins, like your beloved Hellenistic period. It isn't there now, either.

I don't know if you're familiar with the research of Erica Reiner, compiler of the Assyrian/Akkadian dictionary used to translate ancient Mesopotamian star lore. She found that an early use of astrology was to ascertain the best time to conduct divination by haruspicy.

Astrology today is not scientific and it causes us no end of grief when astrologers argue that it is. This is a debate for you to take up with members of your nearest Faculty of Science at an accredited university. Try explaining astrology as a science to a bunch of geochemists.
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  #91  
Unread 03-27-2019, 06:32 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Petosiris, are all of the statements in your OP really yours? If so,you can't believe that horary represents sorcery.

Horary is a chart of the moment of a question. Read the horary board on this forum, and then let us know how much sorcery you think is taking place.

There is a part of astrology that deals with magic: making amulets and that sort of thing.
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Unread 03-27-2019, 03:05 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

There are three approaches to astrology:
1. Those who ''read the mind of God''.
2. Those who investigate it naturally.
3. Those who approach it postmodernly, with ''phenomenology, structuralism, linguistics, psychoanalysis, Marxist thought, and feminist critical theory''. I add Cornelius here too, even though he objects to it. As far as I can tell, the third option is entirely new, 20th century development.

I think you belong to the third camp, while we all else are in agreement with the objective validity of astrology. I don't understand how you don't see it as waste of time.
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Unread 03-27-2019, 03:11 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Astrology today is not scientific and it causes us no end of grief when astrologers argue that it is. This is a debate for you to take up with members of your nearest Faculty of Science at an accredited university. Try explaining astrology as a science to a bunch of geochemists.
No, I think the more rational ones would accept the premise that ''All science is either physics or stamp collecting.'', and that biological processes are dependent on physical ones, and the social processes are dependent on the biological ones (sociobiology). It is just that the most obvious inquiries of Ptolemy have been taken up by other fields, so you don't call biology, meteorology, geography and astronomy based on geodesy - astrology, though I believe this is precisely the subject matter of astrology. Everyone should be in agreement that celestial movements mirror terrestrial events, we are just in disagreement with the scope and method of this inquiry, thus scientists generally ridicule the idea that Mercury produces such and such effect, though they seriously investigate the biological effects of the month of birth.

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That's culture, not nature
Culture as an entity with its own self-interests is a modern social science myth and does not explain anything. It is the product of our biology and environment, rather than it being the environment, for this is a logical impossibility. Every nurture is done by nature. Pyroeis may not be associated with drought, war, intercourse etc., but then you have to explain why it was systematically observed as such with the ancient people of the four quarters of the world, and not just Mesopotamia.

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Again, Mercury today rules liars and thieves because this was the nature of the young god Mercury, a trickster.
We might also suggest as an explanation for the observation of the ancients, the theory that Mercury produces alternating weather, at times moistening, at times drying, the first because it is the planet closest to the earth after the moon, and the latter because it is the planet closest to the sun. Ptolemy expresses similar idea, though the latter is given to the ecliptical distance, rather than the astronomical distance. Of course, it is not the changeable weather that makes the thief go steal, but it is the precise ambient having produced such and such effect at the very time of the conception and nativity.

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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Deleted... I'm sorry mr. Dirius, I slowly grasp what y'all been discussing. [Doesn't mean to offended anyone]

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Unread 03-27-2019, 06:03 PM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Deleted... I'm sorry mr. Dirius, I slowly grasp what y'all been discussing. [Doesn't mean to offended anyone]

Didn't get to read it
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Unread 03-28-2019, 06:01 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
There are three approaches to astrology:
1. Those who ''read the mind of God''.
2. Those who investigate it naturally.
3. Those who approach it postmodernly, with ''phenomenology, structuralism, linguistics, psychoanalysis, Marxist thought, and feminist critical theory''. I add Cornelius here too, even though he objects to it. As far as I can tell, the third option is entirely new, 20th century development.

I think you belong to the third camp, while we all else are in agreement with the objective validity of astrology. I don't understand how you don't see it as waste of time.
Your three categories bear no relation as to how I and most people understand astrology. I find astrology to be fascinating. I would study it even if it were proved to be totally bogus. I often read charts for people. I appreciate the thanks I get from people who say that I helped them.

Observant religious people would find your first category to be a blasphemous piece of hubris. God's mind would be so far beyond human understanding that an ordinary mortal could never claim to read it.

Actually, I don't know what you mean by studying astrology "naturally." Nobody escapes viewing the world through their their own cultural lenses. As a student of the history of astrology, you know this.

You've got quite an eclectic grouping in your third point. These are various schools of thought that quite simply, help people today to make sense of their lives and human history, independently of astrology. It's not qualitatively different from a European in the Middle Ages understanding the world through Catholicism, the feudal system, and local folkways.

But I note that traditional astrology pretty much died out in the West by 1700. If the traditional methods were so effective, it's hard to understand why this should have happened.

The kind of theosophical modern astrology that emerged ca. 1890 was a much different discipline, but it's fair to say that it saved astrology's bacon. A century later, modern astrologers were able to go back to traditional sources.

Look. People get into astrology because life for people can be pretty messy and chaotic-- both externally and between the ears. People want to understand themselves-- and other people. Some people imagine that super-imposing a rigid astrology structure on their messy lives will make the chaos go away and explain everything. But it doesn't. What they have is merely a rigid structure super-imposed upon still-messy human nature.

If you've found a brand of traditional astrology that works for you, that's super. But you're trying to make it into a Procrustean Bed for everybody else.
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Unread 03-28-2019, 06:23 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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I would study it even if it were proved to be totally bogus.
Do you think it is totally bogus, or do you think it has objective validity? If it is the latter, I do not see what problem you have with trying to find the natural mechanisms and methods by which we make this field. If the first, there is no validity to astrology more than Barnum effect, so a person can open any page of a delineation book to a random person, and always get the average result, which is the best result one can get...
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Unread 03-28-2019, 06:25 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

Can't understand whether you experience cognitive dissonance, or just trying to win some sympathies from the first camp.

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Observant religious people would find your first category to be a blasphemous piece of hubris. God's mind would be so far beyond human understanding that an ordinary mortal could never claim to read it.
It is quote from a previous post in this thread. I have heard and thought this elsewhere.
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Unread 03-28-2019, 06:30 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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No, I think the more rational ones would accept the premise that ''All science is either physics or stamp collecting.'', and that biological processes are dependent on physical ones, and the social processes are dependent on the biological ones (sociobiology). It is just that the most obvious inquiries of Ptolemy have been taken up by other fields, so you don't call biology, meteorology, geography and astronomy based on geodesy - astrology, though I believe this is precisely the subject matter of astrology. Everyone should be in agreement that celestial movements mirror terrestrial events, we are just in disagreement with the scope and method of this inquiry, thus scientists generally ridicule the idea that Mercury produces such and such effect, though they seriously investigate the biological effects of the month of birth.
I think you're confusing science-- as a scientist today understands and practices it-- with empiricism. Several non-scientific fields are empirical, notably history and legal studies. You seem to be referring to reductionism in science, but actually, so far, a lot of science either doesn't reduce to physics or has no need to reference it.

Maybe we should start with the scientific method, and how laboratory, field, and observatory or satellite research is actually conducted today. Seriously: take an astronomer or evolutionary biologist out to lunch and ask her.

Ptolemy was what I would call a proto-scientist or pre-scientist. So was Aristotle. We can study and appreciate their role in the development and transmission of knowledge, but nobody today would conduct a scientific study even remotely like they did.

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Culture as an entity with its own self-interests is a modern social science myth and does not explain anything. It is the product of our biology and environment, rather than it being the environment, for this is a logical impossibility. Every nurture is done by nature. Pyroeis may not be associated with drought, war, intercourse etc., but then you have to explain why it was systematically observed as such with the ancient people of the four quarters of the world, and not just Mesopotamia.
Jeez Louise, Petosiris: you're not some kind of biological determinist or sociobiologist, are you??? If so, you: (A) had better be aware of the serious flaws in the biological determinist position; and (B) had better realize how utterly incompatible it is with your beliefs in traditional astrology.

The idea that the planet Mars had the same meaning for ancient people around the globe is first of all (A) untenable, as many left no written record; and (B) unsustainable, as ancient people that we know about didn't have that belief, such as the ancient Egyptian belief that Mars was an identity of Horus. (C) There is such a thing as cultural diffusion, which is how astrological ideas got from, say, Mesopotamia to Greece-- and even India. These weren't independent observations.


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We might also suggest as an explanation for the observation of the ancients, the theory that Mercury produces alternating weather, at times moistening, at times drying, the first because it is the planet closest to the earth after the moon, and the latter because it is the planet closest to the sun. Ptolemy expresses similar idea, though the latter is given to the ecliptical distance, rather than the astronomical distance. Of course, it is not the changeable weather that makes the thief go steal, but it is the precise ambient having produced such and such effect at the very time of the conception and nativity.
Don't know what point you're making here, but while you're contemplating inviting an astronomer or evolutionary biologist for lunch, please consider inviting a meteorologist for coffee.
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Unread 03-28-2019, 06:36 AM
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Re: List of Erroneous, Illogical and Fictitious Systems in Astrology

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Do you think it is totally bogus, or do you think it has objective validity? If it is the latter, I do not see what problem you have with trying to find the natural mechanisms and methods by which we make this field. If the first, there is no validity to astrology more than Barnum effect, so a person can open any page of a delineation book to a random person, and always get the average result, which is the best result one can get...
My views of why astrology should work, assuming it does, are just in another universe from what you seem to believe.

I view astrology as a subjective process that takes place in the mind of the astrologer. The horoscope is effectively a two-dimensional (non-linear) graphic language (and could also be a 3-dimensional graphic language) that communicates different understandings of place and time from our usual linear "time's arrow" mode of thinking and communicating.

There's some quantum stuff in here somewhere, about how the observer changes the nature of the observed.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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