Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Natal Astrology

Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Unread 03-15-2018, 10:12 PM
LovelyMissAries's Avatar
LovelyMissAries LovelyMissAries is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: US
Posts: 1,398
Is Saturn masculine?

I've read in different articles that it is, but how can Saturn be masculine and rule a feminine sign? Same with Venus and Libra. Or is that okay because it represents yin and yang and a balance of energies?

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Unread 03-15-2018, 11:53 PM
IleneK's Avatar
IleneK IleneK is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: in this mysterious cosmos
Posts: 4,886
Re: Is Saturn masculine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LovelyMissAries View Post
I've read in different articles that it is, but how can Saturn be masculine and rule a feminine sign? Same with Venus and Libra. Or is that okay because it represents yin and yang and a balance of energies?
Good question, Lovely.
It is the characteristics of the planet itself that determine if it is masculine or feminine rather than the sign it rules, according to traditional astrology.

The fact that a "planet rules the sign," and not the other way around, points to the hierarchy of influence in astrology, which is:

The [1] planet rules the [2] sign on the [3] house.

That is how masculine Saturn can rule a feminine sign. That is not to say that Saturn in Cap will not have a more feminine quality interjected into it than Saturn in Aquarius. But Saturn is still masculine, from a western/occidental viewpoint at least. Just like people, a guy is masculine but almost always has some feminine or even a lot of feminine characteristics. So it is with planets as they display in a chart the sign they are passing through in the heavens.

If you would like to see the characteristics or qualities of the planets, go the Horary section at Deb Houlding's website at:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary.html

Then at the top center of the page where it says Traditional Rulerships of Planets click each planet icon.
If you scroll down to the Nature for each planet, it will tell you if it is feminine or masculine. Generally speaking, if a planet is either hot or dry, it will be masculine; the others are feminine. The exception is Merc which may be either masculine or feminine [archetypally the trickster] depending upon the ciricumstances.
__________________
Ilene

"You gotta have heart..." Richard Adler 1921-2012
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to IleneK For This Useful Post:
LovelyMissAries (03-16-2018)
  #3  
Unread 03-16-2018, 03:14 AM
obsidianmineral's Avatar
obsidianmineral obsidianmineral is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 469
Re: Is Saturn masculine?

Saturn is masculine and rules Aquarius, a masculine sign. It also rules a femenine sign, but does not have as much power as it has in the other sign.

And, just like with Saturn, Mars is femenine and therefore rules a femenine sign (Scorpio), which it prefers to its second rulership (Aries)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Unread 03-16-2018, 10:17 AM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,236
Smile Re: Is Saturn masculine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by obsidianmineral View Post
Saturn is masculine and rules Aquarius, a masculine sign. It also rules a femenine sign, but does not have as much power as it has in the other sign.

And, just like with Saturn, Mars is femenine and therefore rules a femenine sign (Scorpio), which it prefers to its second rulership (Aries)
The symbol for Mars () is the actual SYMBOL of the male gender, just as Venus is for female. I believe the planet's influence can be either masculine (as was the god of war), OR feminine, for fertility and the renewal of plant and animal life in Spring.
Saturn is nearly always portrayed as masculine, and is the archetype for Father Time. But Saturn's wife, Ops (Rhea in Greek), was goddess of the natural flow of time, relating to birth and the generations. The male version of Saturn (Cronus in Greek) is about aging and death, for individuals and civilizations. So, the Astrological meaning of "Saturn" could have both meanings.

Last edited by david starling; 03-17-2018 at 03:52 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Unread 03-16-2018, 01:50 PM
LovelyMissAries's Avatar
LovelyMissAries LovelyMissAries is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: US
Posts: 1,398
Quote:
Originally Posted by obsidianmineral View Post
Saturn is masculine and rules Aquarius, a masculine sign. It also rules a femenine sign, but does not have as much power as it has in the other sign.

And, just like with Saturn, Mars is femenine and therefore rules a femenine sign (Scorpio), which it prefers to its second rulership (Aries)
It does if you strictly follow traditional astrology, but in modern it rules Capricorn (or both if you want)
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Unread 03-17-2018, 07:01 AM
obsidianmineral's Avatar
obsidianmineral obsidianmineral is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 469
Re: Is Saturn masculine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
The symbol for Mars () is the actual SYMBOL of the male gender, just as Venus is for female. I believe the planet's influence can be either masculine (as was the god of war), OR feminine, for fertility and the renewal of plant and animal life in Spring.
Saturn is nearly always portrayed as masculine, and is the archetype for Father Time. But Saturn's wife, Ops (Rhea in Greek), was goddess of the natural flow of time, relating to birth and the generations. The male version of Saturn (Cronus in Greek) is about aging and death, for individuals and civilizations. So, the Astrological meaning of "Saturn" could have both meanings.
Traditional astrology says otherwise. Mars is femenine and Saturn masculine.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Unread 03-17-2018, 07:21 AM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,236
Smile Re: Is Saturn masculine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by obsidianmineral View Post
Traditional astrology says otherwise. Mars is femenine and Saturn masculine.
So you're saying the Romans worshipped Mars as a GODDESS??!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Unread 03-17-2018, 07:28 AM
obsidianmineral's Avatar
obsidianmineral obsidianmineral is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 469
Re: Is Saturn masculine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
So you're saying the Romans worshipped Mars as a GODDESS??!
No, that's roman mythology. This is astrology on an astrology forum. Mars is taken as a feminine planet in astrology. I don't like the idea of it being feminine either, so if it bothers you, think of Mars as a masculine planet that, due to its excess of heat, needs feminine energy in order to reduce and dissipate said heat. Saturn is "feminine" and cold and needs a masculine energy to balance its excess of cold and turn its natural temperament into a more moderate humour.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Unread 03-17-2018, 09:13 AM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,236
Smile Re: Is Saturn masculine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by obsidianmineral View Post
No, that's roman mythology. This is astrology on an astrology forum. Mars is taken as a feminine planet in astrology. I don't like the idea of it being feminine either, so if it bothers you, think of Mars as a masculine planet that, due to its excess of heat, needs feminine energy in order to reduce and dissipate said heat. Saturn is "feminine" and cold and needs a masculine energy to balance its excess of cold and turn its natural temperament into a more moderate humour.
Not bad, now that you've explained it.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Unread 03-17-2018, 10:13 AM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,236
Smile Re: Is Saturn masculine?

Although I'm into Modern-astrology, I'm a firm believer in the Aquarian Age. Your explanation enables the Age of Aquarius to be expected to be a beneficial one, even for Traditional-astrology, because the harmful extremes of Traditional Age-lord Saturn will be brought into "balance", as you say, by the nature of the Aquarian Sign-qualities themselves. Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Unread 03-17-2018, 02:24 PM
petosiris's Avatar
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,252
Re: Is Saturn masculine?

Traditionally Saturn, Jupiter, Mars and the Sun are masculine, Mercury is common, Venus and the Moon are feminine. Yes, it is unbalanced and totally illogical. To me it seems that all planets are somewhat common, although the lower ones seem to be more feminine in relation to the previous ones.

For example in Chaldean astrology and among many nations (Hebrews, Hindus, Germans, ancient Egyptians), the Moon is masculine, and it appears so in Kabbalism, where Saturn is feminine according to that.

To me it seems that Saturn is very feminine to the zodiac, but very masculine to the rest, especially to Earth. What Saturn gives, no planet can take. And it seems to me that the Moon is very masculine to Earth, but very feminine to the above planets, for the Moon is the mediator of all astrological influence (more so than Mercury).

And it seems to me correct that only Venus is called a goddess, for in her is the mystery of victory, being the planet just below the Sun, unifying the lower influences, being first of the more feminine, full of grace and beauty.

Just use the gender of the sign instead of the planets.

There is a clear difference between a ruler and a sign. Aries is not prolific, while Scorpio is. Aries is royal, while Scorpio is not. Pisces is aquatic, while Sagittarius is human (half human, half quadruped according to some). Aquarius and Capricorn are both aquatic on account of water and a fish body, but Aquarius is handsome on account of the Water-Pourer, while Capricorn is unattractive on account of its form. Similarly there is no problem for the Water-Pourer to be masculine, while the Goat-Horned One to be feminine, or for Aries to be masculine, while Scorpio to be feminine.

Last edited by petosiris; 03-17-2018 at 02:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to petosiris For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (03-18-2018)
  #12  
Unread 03-17-2018, 06:26 PM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,236
Smile Re: Is Saturn masculine?

Try using "Yang" and "Yin" in place of masculine and feminine. Also, the two planets inside of Earth's orbit are especially of dual nature, since they appear as both morning and evening stars.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Unread 03-18-2018, 01:39 AM
petosiris's Avatar
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,252
Re: Is Saturn masculine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Try using "Yang" and "Yin" in place of masculine and feminine. Also, the two planets inside of Earth's orbit are especially of dual nature, since they appear as both morning and evening stars.
No thanks. I prefer using masculine and feminine, as the most practical usage I've seen of this quality is the estimation of the biological sex/gender of children and siblings.

This goes back to Hellenistic astrologers who saw evening stars as feminine, and morning stars as masculine, but I do not use this, neither do I use feminine or masculine quadrants, nor do I use inherent planetary gender.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to petosiris For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (03-18-2018)
  #14  
Unread 03-18-2018, 06:50 AM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,236
Smile Re: Is Saturn masculine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
No thanks. I prefer using masculine and feminine, as the most practical usage I've seen of this quality is the estimation of the biological sex/gender of children and siblings.

This goes back to Hellenistic astrologers who saw evening stars as feminine, and morning stars as masculine, but I do not use this, neither do I use feminine or masculine quadrants, nor do I use inherent planetary gender.
I meant it mostly for the Signs, with Fire and Air as Yang, and Earth and Water as Yin. The Hellenists did lose the import of the Planet now known as Venus as the original Sumerian morning-star goddess of Justice/evening-star goddess of Love; so, they had only Aphrodite, the evening-star version. Hermes/Mercury was only masculine and was god of thieves as the evening-star, and god of merchants and travelers as the morning star. The Greco-Romans did masculinize morning-star Venus as Phosphorus, Eosphoros (Greek); and, Lucifer in Latin, who ended up demonized in the Christian cosmology.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Unread 03-18-2018, 10:14 PM
petosiris's Avatar
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,252
Re: Is Saturn masculine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
I meant it mostly for the Signs, with Fire and Air as Yang, and Earth and Water as Yin. The Hellenists did lose the import of the Planet now known as Venus as the original Sumerian morning-star goddess of Justice/evening-star goddess of Love; so, they had only Aphrodite, the evening-star version. Hermes/Mercury was only masculine and was god of thieves as the evening-star, and god of merchants and travelers as the morning star. The Greco-Romans did masculinize morning-star Venus as Phosphorus, Eosphoros (Greek); and, Lucifer in Latin, who ended up demonized in the Christian cosmology.
The thing is that Hellenistic astrologers largely ignored what mythology has to say and said that Mercury is common/androgynous (only one author has him assigned masculine). If anything, that choice may have been influenced by Hermes Trismegistos, which was taken as some high sage who succeeded in alchemy and mysticism (and thus uniting the opposites). They did have thieves, forgers and criminals ascribed to Mercury with Mars though.

Also the majority of Hellenistic astrologers did not assign the Four Classical Elements to the Signs. Many held Capricorn and Aquarius to be aquatic and did not have Scorpio as watery sign or Aquarius as an airy one.

Last edited by petosiris; 03-18-2018 at 10:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to petosiris For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (03-18-2018)
  #16  
Unread 03-18-2018, 11:35 PM
david starling david starling is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,236
Smile Re: Is Saturn masculine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
The thing is that Hellenistic astrologers largely ignored what mythology has to say and said that Mercury is common/androgynous (only one author has him assigned masculine). If anything, that choice may have been influenced by Hermes Trismegistos, which was taken as some high sage who succeeded in alchemy and mysticism (and thus uniting the opposites). They did have thieves, forgers and criminals ascribed to Mercury with Mars though.

Also the majority of Hellenistic astrologers did not assign the Four Classical Elements to the Signs. Many held Capricorn and Aquarius to be aquatic and did not have Scorpio as watery sign or Aquarius as an airy one.
What about Zeus/Jupiter? No Greco-Roman religious input regarding "the King of the gods"? Wasn't Jupiter considered masculine by the Hellenists?
Do you happen to know how the Classical Elements and the Modalities became part of the heritage of Western-astrology? If it's Ptolemy, it appears he was drawing from earlier sources, with his own seasonal motif to explain the rulerships.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Unread 03-19-2018, 01:07 AM
petosiris's Avatar
petosiris petosiris is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,252
Re: Is Saturn masculine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
What about Zeus/Jupiter? No Greco-Roman religious input regarding "the King of the gods"? Wasn't Jupiter considered masculine by the Hellenists?
Do you happen to know how the Classical Elements and the Modalities became part of the heritage of Western-astrology? If it's Ptolemy, it appears he was drawing from earlier sources, with his own seasonal motif to explain the rulerships.
If one carefully investigates every mythology and religion, he will discover that it is at least partly and beyond any doubt astrolatrical in nature. There is no problem with deriving symbolism from the sky, but I find it problematic if one wants to derive everything from a secondary and unrefined source. For example ''fathership of others’ children. Of materials, it rules lead, wood, and stone. Of the limbs of the body, it rules the legs, the knees, the tendons, the lymph, the phlegm, the bladder, the kidneys, and the internal, hidden organs'' - Valens, trans. by Riley, I will have hard time ascribing this to a mythological source and connection with Saturn.

It is possible that some Hellenistic astrologers saw Zeus as masculine because of that, but again planetary gender is absent in Porphyry, Antiochus and Thrasyllus (they only mention gender of signs). Also as you said Hermes is masculine in Greek religion, but not in most Hellenistic authors who used planetary gender (only Rhetorius of all authors, has Mercury masculine).

The classical elements are entirely absent in Ptolemy as are in all earlier sources than Vettius Valens. Even after him only a few Hellenistic authors use that scheme.

Last edited by petosiris; 03-19-2018 at 01:12 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
masculine, saturn

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 05:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.