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Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


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  #51  
Unread 03-31-2017, 05:38 AM
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Re: Most elevated planet

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Ancients considered the Sun a neutral planet: benefic if far away from a given planet, malefic is close by a given planet (they had 2 classifications for planets near the Sun: one was called "under the sunbeams" and was considered a minor debility; the other was combust-within 8 or so degrees of the Sun-which was considered a major debility) For me, I don't consider "under the sunbeams" but I do consider combust-my orb, though, is 5 degrees.
In my delineations when a planet is combust I consider it to be absorbed by the Sun-and I use the Sun for that combust planet's position in delineation of that chart (this is not an orthodox delineative procedure, but it "works for me"...)
That makes me think about some stuff. Wouldn't it be best if a planet was at just the right distance from the Sun? If too far away, then the planet can't receive the Sun's heat and warmth, which is much appreciated, traditionally speaking. Also, I thought that most people considered any planet conjunct the Sun to have its energy absorbed by the Sun. Is that what's unorthodox about your chart delineations? Or did you mean that you actually consider the Sun to assume the rulership of whatever the other planet ruled?

What happens when the Sun is conjunct a malefic? What about a benefic? If the were conjunct , would the big star take all of the old man's restrictions and limits and put a spotlight on those things? I'm thinking of the Sun as the laws that rule each person's universe. What would be of Saturn in that case? Does Saturn just stay like a burned out, useless piece of space rock? What happens when the Sun conjoins a benefic, like ? Following the proposition "The Sun creates the laws of each person's universe", would a Jupiter conjunction make things work out in a way that the native gets away with stuff? Or would the Sun just make Jupiter more important? Why is it considered a combustion as the worst kind of influence if the Sun just absorbs all of the energy?


Maybe the natal chart doesn't consider actual distance to be the most important. If the Sun is 120 apart from another body, it can give a lot of its warmth and light onto it, even more than it does when it's only 60 degrees apart.


Last edited by obsidianmineral; 03-31-2017 at 05:40 AM.
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  #52  
Unread 03-31-2017, 05:47 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Most elevated planet

Because in combustion the Sun absorbs all of the energy of the planet-that's why if that happens, I use the SUN FOR ALL OF THAT ABSORBED PLANET'S CONNECTIONS IN THE CHART (that's what is unorthodox in my delineation when I deal with a combust planet; the orthodox-traditionalist-delineation would be of the combust planet in a very detrimented state due to the combustion; Modernist delineation would not count the combust state as a factor at all, and would consider a combust planet not to be afflicted by the Sun in any way, a straight conjunction of the planet with the Sun would be delineated) Then there is cazimi, when a planet is in the heart of the Sun: now the Sun magnifies the cazimi planet's influences, particularly it benefic qualities, and makes it as if 2 of that planet were operative in the chart! Again, this is traditionalist perspective, most Modernist practitioners don't count cazimi as being any different than a mere partile conjunction of the planet with the Sun-here I follow traditionalist orthodoxy and regard cazimi as a very significant dignifying condition.
One thing to remember-the Sun actually is not a "planet"-its a "fixed star"-and so I believe that special considerations must be given to the Sun which are not accorded to the "real" planets (here including our satellite the Moon)

NOTE: as with much else in my approach to astrology, I am considering this matter re to the Sun and combust/cazimi from a SYMBOLIC perspective; in objective scientific reality the combustion of a planet is not really occuring out in space, it appears to be occurring from out geocentric point of observation only-so the Modernist outlook here is the "scientifically correct" one: only an apparent conjunction from our point of view is happening, there is no actual (objective) combustion of the planet by the Sun.
But, as I said, I follow a highly symbolic approach to astrology, so the actual objective astrophysical facts are not of primary importance to ME...

Last edited by dr. farr; 03-31-2017 at 06:05 AM.
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  #53  
Unread 03-31-2017, 06:06 AM
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Re: Most elevated planet

^What does it mean for the planet's effects for its energy to be "absorbed" by the Sun?
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  #54  
Unread 03-31-2017, 06:10 AM
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Re: Most elevated planet

Larry King is an interesting case. Chart

The planet closest to his midheaven is mercury. It is retrograde and combust, yet he excelled at public communications.
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  #55  
Unread 03-31-2017, 06:11 AM
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Re: Most elevated planet

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^What does it mean for the planet's effects for its energy to be "absorbed" by the Sun?
The Sun takes over and substitutes the planet's influences with its own (SOLAR) influences, and its as if the planet is not in the particular chart-

NOTE: I want to emphasize again that this is MY OWN outlook regarding delineation of a combust planet and it is not followed either in traditional, nor Vedic, nor Modernist astrological doctrine.
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  #56  
Unread 03-31-2017, 06:18 AM
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Re: Most elevated planet

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Originally Posted by !4C View Post
Larry King is an interesting case. Chart

The planet closest to his midheaven is mercury. It is retrograde and combust, yet he excelled at public communications.
Good supporting example for the Modernist position against considering combustion a factor.

However in the reference chart I myself would in fact have considered Mercury to have been absorbed by the Sun, and would ascribe to the Sun the benefic effects relating to King's excellence at public communications.
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  #57  
Unread 03-31-2017, 07:56 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Good supporting example for the Modernist position against considering combustion a factor.

However in the reference chart I myself would in fact have considered Mercury to have been absorbed by the Sun, and would ascribe to the Sun the benefic effects relating to King's excellence at public communications.
Dr. Farr, I have a logical problem considering Retrograde important (in the Natal-chart ONLY). The Natal-chart is a "snapshot", in which there is no movement in either direction, and is the STATIONARY foundation for the native, and remains so for an entire life-time. Transits and SRs are measured relative to the unchanging Natal-chart configuration. Horary is a different matter, because it's a projection into the future, and Retrograde makes perfect sense for that. I realize nearly everyone is convinced it's an important factor for Natal, but there's no way of proving it, as far as I can tell--Aspects can explain its supposed effects just as well. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about this, just interested in your opinion based on your experience. (Again, Natal only!)
Btw, Moderns can be just as touchy about their own chosen Astrological beliefs as Traditionalists! I tread lightly, even in the Modern Forum.

Last edited by david starling; 03-31-2017 at 08:05 AM.
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  #58  
Unread 03-31-2017, 08:10 AM
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Re: Most elevated planet

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Dr. Farr, I have a logical problem considering Retrograde important (in the Natal-chart ONLY). The Natal-chart is a "snapshot", in which there is no movement in either direction, and is the STATIONARY foundation for the native, and remains so for an entire life-time. Transits and SRs are measured relative to the unchanging Natal-chart configuration.
What are your thoughts on progressions? Do you think they are a useful tool in regards prediction? A consideration in progressions would be the change of a planet's direction, and based on what people report, the effects are noticeable. Does this affect your thinking on the acknowledging of natal Rx planets in any way?
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  #59  
Unread 03-31-2017, 09:12 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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What are your thoughts on progressions? Do you think they are a useful tool in regards prediction? A consideration in progressions would be the change of a planet's direction, and based on what people report, the effects are noticeable. Does this affect your thinking on the acknowledging of natal Rx planets in any way?
A Natal-chart is for life. Progression is about changing from one snapshot to another, based on the snapshot Natal-chart. I think people read something into Retrograde/Direct that might not be there, because it's a compelling idea. I did a little experiment (very little ) with the charts of two colonial personalities, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin. A known introvert, very awkward in in social situations, and an extreme extrovert, socially very comfortable in any social situation. Retrograde Mercury is supposed to be withdrawn and inward-thinking, but it was Jefferson with Merc direct in Pisces, and Franklin with it retrograde in Aquarius. The Signs explain it, movement in a "still-life" photo doesn't. Funny, if it had been as conventionally expected, I probably would have changed my mind! Convention has its own momentum. Considering all the factors involved in reading a snapshot Natal-chart, ignoring Retrograde-motion where there isn't any movement evident, really isn't much of a loss.[IMO]
Of course if a Chart had Sun or Moon Retrograde, I would definitely view THAT as important!

Last edited by david starling; 03-31-2017 at 08:04 PM.
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  #60  
Unread 03-31-2017, 03:03 PM
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Re: Most elevated planet

Grant Lewi shunned progressions. He said, if they work for you use them but I dont.
His predictive measures are recorded in astrology for the millions.

Personally I use them but I also see his reasoning
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  #61  
Unread 03-31-2017, 03:29 PM
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Re: Most elevated planet

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
The Sun takes over and substitutes the planet's influences with its own (SOLAR) influences, and its as if the planet is not in the particular chart-

NOTE: I want to emphasize again that this is MY OWN outlook regarding delineation of a combust planet and it is not followed either in traditional, nor Vedic, nor Modernist astrological doctrine.
But does the energy of the sun actually change? So if the Sun takes over and the planet is combust, does that mean that the Sun will exert its own solar qualities + the qualities that it got from the other planet?

I mean, the Sun is really powerful and all, but there has to be some influence from the other planet, right? If the Sun is conjunct Saturn, Saturn will be burned out. However, the Sun will take on the qualities of Saturn, right? For example, in said conjunction, would the Sun act 75% solar and 25% saturn?

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  #62  
Unread 03-31-2017, 08:27 PM
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But does the energy of the sun actually change? So if the Sun takes over and the planet is combust, does that mean that the Sun will exert its own solar qualities + the qualities that it got from the other planet?

I mean, the Sun is really powerful and all, but there has to be some influence from the other planet, right? If the Sun is conjunct Saturn, Saturn will be burned out. However, the Sun will take on the qualities of Saturn, right? For example, in said conjunction, would the Sun act 75% solar and 25% saturn?
Sun/Saturn may be a special case. I think it brings out the best in Saturn like no other matchup can. A transmutation rather than obliteration.

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  #63  
Unread 03-31-2017, 08:37 PM
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Re: Most elevated planet

Can someone tell me what my elevated planet is? Is it the moon, pluto, or chiron? Does chiron even count?

astro_2gw_01_chris.70572.39067.jpg
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  #64  
Unread 04-01-2017, 01:47 AM
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Can someone tell me what my elevated planet is? Is it the moon, pluto, or chiron? Does chiron even count?

Attachment 66754
The lights are always above all
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  #65  
Unread 04-01-2017, 01:55 AM
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Re: Most elevated planet

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Because in combustion the Sun absorbs all of the energy of the planet-that's why if that happens, I use the SUN FOR ALL OF THAT ABSORBED PLANET'S CONNECTIONS IN THE CHART
While not entirely the same thing, Bhavartha Ratnakara has an idea on the same lines when it comes to timing events with dasas and suggests that if planets are with the sun, then the good they cause will actually be absorbed by the Sun and (mostly) occur in the Sun's dasa rather than the respective planets.

With the exception of Mercury, who supposedly will absorb the "good" from the Sun.

I've found it to work nicely with timing (Vimshottari) at least.
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  #66  
Unread 04-01-2017, 02:13 AM
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Re: Most elevated planet

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The lights are always above all
What do you mean?
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  #67  
Unread 04-01-2017, 02:16 AM
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Re: Most elevated planet

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Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
What do you mean?
The lights are Sun + Moon, so go with Moon for your most elevated
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  #68  
Unread 04-01-2017, 02:16 AM
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Re: Most elevated planet

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Originally Posted by obsidianmineral View Post
But does the energy of the sun actually change? So if the Sun takes over and the planet is combust, does that mean that the Sun will exert its own solar qualities + the qualities that it got from the other planet?

I mean, the Sun is really powerful and all, but there has to be some influence from the other planet, right? If the Sun is conjunct Saturn, Saturn will be burned out. However, the Sun will take on the qualities of Saturn, right? For example, in said conjunction, would the Sun act 75% solar and 25% saturn?
I believe that the Sun will take on-as a part of its influence-a good portion of the quality of the planet it has absorbed (combust)-good example is the one cited above by 14C regarding Larry King and his combust Mercury: certainly King was a broadcast and news commentator (Mercury affinities) but he was MUCH more than just that-he was politically important, a star, a celebrity, etc etc, which are all Solar affinities.
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Unread 04-01-2017, 02:20 AM
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Re: Most elevated planet

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Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
Can someone tell me what my elevated planet is? Is it the moon, pluto, or chiron? Does chiron even count?

Attachment 66754
Pluto is the most elevated planet (actually planetoid) in your chart. However IF we followed a purely traditionalist approach (excluding the outers) then the Moon would be the most elevated planet. For me, I would consider Pluto to be your most elevated planet.
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  #70  
Unread 04-01-2017, 03:24 AM
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Re: Most elevated planet

How much emphasis do traditional astrologers place on the sign, house and aspects to the most elevated planet when analyzing its effect in the native's life? I know it seems like it would probably be a given that one would take all of these factors into account, but I have looked at a few traditional astrology articles on the MEP and I don't remember seeing much about this.

What I guess I'm asking is, do traditional astrologers see the MEP as having a modified influence based on various factors (sign, etc), or is it supposed to act like essentially a dignified/pure expression of itself no matter what?
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Unread 04-01-2017, 03:31 AM
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Re: Most elevated planet

To my understanding, whereas Greco-Roman practitioners gave special attention and consideration to the MEP as such, traditionalists hold that the most elevated planet 's potential influence in the chart is subject to various modifying factors just like any other planet in the chart.
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Unread 04-01-2017, 04:00 AM
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Re: Most elevated planet

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Dr. Farr, I have a logical problem considering Retrograde important (in the Natal-chart ONLY). The Natal-chart is a "snapshot", in which there is no movement in either direction, and is the STATIONARY foundation for the native, and remains so for an entire life-time. Transits and SRs are measured relative to the unchanging Natal-chart configuration. Horary is a different matter, because it's a projection into the future, and Retrograde makes perfect sense for that. I realize nearly everyone is convinced it's an important factor for Natal, but there's no way of proving it, as far as I can tell--Aspects can explain its supposed effects just as well. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about this, just interested in your opinion based on your experience. (Again, Natal only!)
Btw, Moderns can be just as touchy about their own chosen Astrological beliefs as Traditionalists! I tread lightly, even in the Modern Forum.

Ultimately I am undecided about the retrograde status: I do think its valid even from a frozen snap-shot in time perspective, since it represents A STATE of a given planet and not what will happen to that state in the future.
But what kind of a state of the planet does Rx indicate?? Vedic astrology considers it to be a MORE POWERFUL state than if the planet were direct; Western astrology considers it to be a DETRIMENTED STATE favoring the negative/adverse influences of the planet; me? I lean toward the Vedic position of Rx being a more powerful state of the planet, but I also consider the Rx state to be one of self-conflict for the planet, ultimately yielding a rather chaotic net influence of the Rx planet. So ultimately I would look at an Rx state as a detriment, but not as a debility-ie not as a weakening of the planet's influence-but rather as tending to bring out difficulties with the planet, but the planet's influences being increased, not diminished.
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  #73  
Unread 04-01-2017, 04:29 AM
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Re: Most elevated planet

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Originally Posted by detectahead View Post
Grant Lewi shunned progressions. He said, if they work for you use them but I dont.
His predictive measures are recorded in astrology for the millions.

Personally I use them but I also see his reasoning
I do not use primary or secondary directions (the usual progressions); I use transits, and I also use the simple symbolic progression method of Charles Carter (1 degree advance for every year of life)...I'll also use Pauline profection for a more general indication of trends, and also Solar Returns, but I must admit that I favor Carter's simple symbolic progression method in predicting from the natal...
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Unread 04-01-2017, 04:36 AM
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Re: Most elevated planet

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Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
Both. When I've focused on the asc, it's ruler, moon and it's ruler and Mercury to an extent I've been able to get a good grasp on character without any recourse to the wider horoscope. I've also noticed this in the charts of the people I know. In modern astrology practice, oppositions indicate some distancing with the planet or point that is more "remote". At one point I was in a relationship with a girl who had Mercury opp. Jupiter and Venus opp. Pluto and my chart happens to have both Jupiter and Pluto strains strong.

To the concepts bit, IIRC correctly there are a number of techniques given by different astrologers over the years which mostly gear character delineation toward a few points in the chart and not much else. Lilly's manners takes planets in the 1st house, asc ruler, or any planets that are interacting with the Moon and Mercury to get a handle on personality, Ptolemy chronicled a technique whereby focus was placed primarily on Mercury and Moon, and I think Abu Mashar also focused on the ASC, Moon and Mercury paying much attention to the modality of the points in question.

Traditionally too within the chart, the houses are seen as differentiated areas of life and any planets placed within would be descriptive of that area. While in modern it seems as though the planet signifies the subjective experience that one has regarding a particular area of life. In practice, both reasons often end up aligning.
I don't typically tend to see anything from my chart as being "out there" -- I see it as all part of me. And I would probably feel like this even if I had no knowledge of astrology. But, I definitely have some trouble channeling or expressing energies in (what I view as) the best possible way. None of the planets you mentioned above are ruled by Mars, my most elevated, in my tropical chart; so it would make sense that Mars is somewhat difficult for me.

I have had a lot of violence and hatred directed toward me throughout my life, yet I still don't see this as Mars manifesting as an outside force. But maybe I am putting on the rose-colored Neptune glasses here because it's quite painful to think about. In all honesty though, I think this can be explained by other factors in the chart (not just mine, but in craft94's for example; I don't recall seeing her chart, however I'm wondering if there is some other factor that explains why she might experience Saturn more from the outside rather than in her personal conduct). In other words, I don't know that I can accept the idea that "rulership of X planet is the cause of manifestation within the personality, and non-rulership of X planet is the cause of possible external manifestation." But of course, I greatly appreciate your explanation and sources, and I can see the value in analyzing the personality by these standards. I just think there are other things to consider.

As far as my most elevated, I am either not expressing my Mars at all or I go completely overboard with it. No wonder, with it squaring my Libra ascendant. This is becoming less of a problem as I mature, but earlier in my life I did whatever I could to be viewed as lovable, beautiful, popular, sweet, good -- attractively Venusian, basically. Then when I would have an insane outburst of Mars emotion due to some injustice happening to me, many people would turn against me. Clearly their decision to accept me was dependent solely upon the Libra ASC "mask." I still don't know how to work with this Mars properly and it is admittedly an issue.

I would think, though, that the square to ASC is likely the cause of external problems rather than the lack of Mars rulerships in my chart. I don't know, this is all very subjective I guess. My main inability to accept the rulerships theory is due to the possibility of different sidereal rulerships. This is a particularly big thing for me because Mars becomes sidereal ruler of my Moon. But, then again, MEP seems to be something that is used pretty much only amongst tropical astrologers. I could be completely wrong here, just the impression I've gotten thus far.
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Unread 04-01-2017, 05:28 AM
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Re: Most elevated planet

I would agree that the square to the ascending degree is the source of the problems.

Yes relative to what you posted re to tropical vs Vedic outlook-in the Vedic systems the planet with the highest number of degrees in a given sign, gets special consideration regardless of the placement of that planet relative to horizon/mid-heaven.

Last edited by dr. farr; 04-01-2017 at 05:31 AM.
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