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Unread 10-01-2019, 11:20 AM
Clair Y Clair Y is offline
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Interpreting the dignities of Mercury and Saturn in this chart

I am looking at a chart in which Mercury is in domicile in Virgo yet is combust. Venus is in fall and also combust such that they are at 4, 5 & 6° respectively (Venus, Sun, Mercury). Mercury is in a partile sextile with Chiron which is in the 12th house in Mars' terms. Mercury is occidental and the chart is diurnal (Venus, Sun and Mercury are all in the 10th house).

Saturn is in detriment in Leo yet in his own triplicity & terms, in the 9th house while trining the Ascendant with a 2°32' orb.

Would it be safe to say here that Mercury's afflictions, although he is in a prominent position, means he is weak despite being in domicile?

Regarding Saturn, could he be assessed as the stronger planet despite being in detriment?

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Unread 10-01-2019, 11:35 AM
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Re: Interpreting the dignities of Mercury and Saturn in this chart

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Originally Posted by Clair Y View Post

I am looking at a chart in which Mercury is in domicile in Virgo yet is combust. Venus is in fall and also combust such that they are at 4, 5 & 6° respectively (Venus, Sun, Mercury). Mercury is in a partile sextile

with Chiron


which is in the 12th house in Mars' terms. Mercury is occidental and the chart is diurnal (Venus, Sun and Mercury are all in the 10th house).
Saturn is in detriment in Leo yet in his own triplicity & terms, in the 9th house while trining the Ascendant with a 2°32' orb.
Would it be safe to say here that Mercury's afflictions, although he is in a prominent position, means he is weak despite being in domicile?
Regarding Saturn, could he be assessed as the stronger planet despite being in detriment?
You have posted your thread on our traditional forum
on which Chiron is of no consequence
for clarity

keep in mind that

- whether a TRADITIONAL astrologer
or a MODERNIST astrologer
our forum hosts BOTH perspectives ON SEPARATE BOARDS

i.e.
our MODERN BOARD completely excludes traditional astrological comment
and
our TRADITIONAL BOARD completely excludes Modernist astrological comment
i.e.
We have a modernist board AS WELL AS a traditional board
and then
the rest of our forum is composed of GENERAL ASTROLOGY THREADS
i.e.
whether a member is using Vedic astrology
Chinese astrology, Western Sidereal Astrology, Modernist Astrology Traditional Astrology
ALL perspectives are welcomed on our General Astrology board threads
and any member
may comment on our GENERAL ASTROLOGY BOARD using ANY astrological methodology

our HELP WITH FORUMS AND SUGGESTIONS board is at
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to be clear then
you have posted your thread on our TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY ONLY board
at
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...splay.php?f=92

which is specifically for discussions on Traditional Astrology only.
Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras.
Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction
and excludes modern planets Neptune, Uranus and Pluto
non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids.
The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation
and more on prediction.
Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas
should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.

our MODERNIST ASTROLOGY ONLY board
is at
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...splay.php?f=95
For discussions on Modern Astrology only.
Note: Typically, modern astrology is defined as using techniques developed around the late 1800s by Theosophists.
Specifically it relies on psychological, evolutionary, karmic, and non-western interpretation approaches
and includes Neptune, Uranus and Pluto
and non-Ptolemaic aspects.
The focus is more on psychological chart interpretation instead of prediction.


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Unread 10-01-2019, 12:11 PM
Clair Y Clair Y is offline
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Re: Interpreting the dignities of Mercury and Saturn in this chart

Ok thanks I understand. I will from now on keep a closer eye on the bodies and things I mention in the traditional forum. Here is my question rephrased for those who may still like to answer it.

I am looking at a chart in which Mercury is in domicile in Virgo yet is combust. Venus is in fall and also combust such that they are at 4, 5 & 6° respectively (Venus, Sun, Mercury). Mercury is otherwise unaspected.
Mercury is occidental and the chart is diurnal (Venus, Sun and Mercury are all in the 10th house).

Saturn is in detriment in Leo yet in his own triplicity & terms, in the 9th house while trining the Ascendant with a 2°32' orb.

Would it be safe to say here that Mercury's afflictions, although he is in a prominent position, means he is weak despite being in domicile?
Regarding Saturn, could he be assessed as the stronger planet despite being in detriment?
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Unread 10-01-2019, 01:21 PM
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Re: Interpreting the dignities of Mercury and Saturn in this chart

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Originally Posted by Clair Y View Post


Ok thanks I understand.

I will from now on keep a closer eye on the bodies and things I mention in the traditional forum.
Thanks for your understanding
remember if you would like a discussion
that mixes traditional with modern

then one of our GENERAL ASTROLOGY boards such as Read My Chart
would be an appropriate discussion area
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clair Y View Post

Here is my question rephrased for those who may still like to answer it.
I am looking at a chart in which....
without a chart
anyone responding would only generalise
which is a fun
but unreliable and very limited form of analysis

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Unread 10-01-2019, 01:24 PM
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Re: Interpreting the dignities of Mercury and Saturn in this chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clair Y View Post

Mercury is in domicile in Virgo yet is combust.
Venus is in fall and also combust such that they are at 4, 5 & 6° respectively (Venus, Sun, Mercury).
Mercury is otherwise unaspected.
Mercury is occidental and the chart is diurnal (Venus, Sun and Mercury are all in the 10th house).
Saturn is in detriment in Leo yet in his own triplicity & terms, in the 9th house while trining the Ascendant with a 2°32' orb.
Would it be safe to say here that Mercury's afflictions
although he is in a prominent position, means he is weak
despite being in domicile?
Regarding Saturn, could he be assessed as the stronger planet
despite being in detriment?
as there is no chart to view
general advice from petosiris
may be of use
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

I could have one potential solution for your problem that I personally adopt. If we focus on the theoretical planetary strength using all factors it might be useful to use take into account all relative positions and tables (I personally made my own using Hellenistic considerations, being dissatisfied with the medieval and renaissance tables or ones based for almutens - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121676).

However, if one studies a topic, it would be much easier and better to focus on just few primary factors - angularity, domicile, exaltation, retrograde or direct, sect and aspects. Whether a planet is favorably placed, slightly favorably placed, average, slightly unfavorably placed or unfavorably placed can be easily glanced in a few seconds using those conditions.

And another hint, instead of trying to focus on the stars and trying to come up with potential manifestations based on the placements, I find it much easier to focus on the topic, and then investigate the planets that are related to that topic, for example the houserulers. Ptolemy mentions this difficulty in the early authors, who try to use all planets, aspects and house placements at the same time, instead of focusing on parents, siblings, occupation, marriage, travel etc. one by one as Ptolemy does in the Tetrabiblos.
'.....The art of synthesizing chart factors in the process of analysis
calls us to consider many factors. One of the most important is
to consider the strength and dignity of the planets.
The 'benefics' are not constant sources of good fortune,
the 'malefics' are not always damaging
nor is it fair to assume that all planets express an equal importance
at all times...'
COMPLETE FREE GUIDE TO UNDERSTANDING PLANETARY STRENGTH
at http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dignities.html

ALSO
generously FREE from Charlie Obert
at http://theastrologypodcast.com/2018/...YNlDgSz2m19brA
In episode 156 of THE ASTROLOGY PODCAST astrologer Charles Obert joins the show
to talk about the concept of essential dignities and debilities
and how they are used to determine the condition of a planet in an astrological chart.


Classical astrologers considered diurnal movement central to their art
and called it the natural motion of heaven.
Manilius explained that as a sign rises, its gaze is directed towards
the signs that rose before it, not at those which rise after it.
Aries looks forward towards Aquarius by sextile,
Capricorn by square
and Sagittarius by trine:

'....Capricorn views Libra, whilst the Ram sees Capricorn ahead
and is in turn beheld at an equal distance by the Crab, and
the Crab is perceived by Libra's leftward stars as it follows up:
for preceding signs are reckoned as right signs.
A dexter aspect is therefore more direct.

Because the line of sight is carried by diurnal motion it has a stronger influence
than a sinister one and is more likely to produce an uncomplicated, expressive effect....'
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/dexter.html





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Unread 10-01-2019, 05:11 PM
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Re: Interpreting the dignities of Mercury and Saturn in this chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clair Y View Post
I am looking at a chart in which Mercury is in domicile in Virgo yet is combust. Venus is in fall and also combust such that they are at 4, 5 & 6° respectively (Venus, Sun, Mercury). Mercury is in a partile sextile with Chiron which is in the 12th house in Mars' terms. Mercury is occidental and the chart is diurnal (Venus, Sun and Mercury are all in the 10th house).

Would it be safe to say here that Mercury's afflictions, although he is in a prominent position, means he is weak despite being in domicile?
I wouldn't say Mercury is afflicted. A concept that you see in Hellenistic astrology and early Medieval astrology is the idea of planets being in their "chariots". A planet in their own domicile or exaltation (Rhetorius mentions terms as well) is protected from being combust. So when a planet is in domicile or exaltation, they're covered from the influence of combustion. With the exception of being occidental, from what you describe Mercury is doing pretty great.

Venus however is really, really hurt by the combustion. She's in a day chart, in fall, and combustion only makes it worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clair Y View Post
Saturn is in detriment in Leo yet in his own triplicity & terms, in the 9th house while trining the Ascendant with a 2°32' orb.

Regarding Saturn, could he be assessed as the stronger planet despite being in detriment?
It's important not to see dignities as quantitative, but as qualitative. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but it really helps in attempting to avoid getting confused in situations like this. I find that listing out what each condition means helps to give you a more concrete idea of what the planet is doing.

So Saturn is first of all in a day chart, which is good for Saturn. It means he's going to be less malefic. Saturn in detriment means that he's self defeating and can't do what he wants to do. Being in his own triplicity means that he has support....depending on what the triplicity lords are doing. You already mentioned the Sun who is angular in the 10th. However if the Sun is in Virgo, that means that he can't see Saturn by any aspect, which isn't helpful at all. Saturn being in his own bound or terms means that he has administration over his own affairs. He can't do whatever he wants to do (as if he were in his own sign), but he does have some say in how his significations get brought about.

So I'd say that this Saturn in Leo is rough. He's still inclined to try to be positive by being in a day chart, but being in detriment stops him from doing anything really that well. Being in his own terms he might produce a few of his positive meanings, but rather sporadically and generally with a lot of struggle. He's really dependent on the Sun, since the Sun is his ruler by sign and is part of the same triplicity. However the Sun can't see Saturn by any aspect, so they're disconnected. The Sun can't help. The only recourse would be to look to see what Jupiter is doing.
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Unread 10-02-2019, 05:28 AM
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Re: Interpreting the dignities of Mercury and Saturn in this chart

Clair, can you post the chart? The most legible free charts are at Astrodienst www.astro.com. They have features that allow you to turn off the trans-Saturnian planets, input terms and faces, and choose your house system.

It would be helpful to get a visual.
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Unread 10-02-2019, 10:34 AM
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Re: Interpreting the dignities of Mercury and Saturn in this chart

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Originally Posted by sworm09 View Post


I wouldn't say Mercury is afflicted. A concept that you see in Hellenistic astrology and early Medieval astrology is the idea of planets being in their "chariots". A planet in their own domicile or exaltation (Rhetorius mentions terms as well) is protected from being combust. So when a planet is in domicile or exaltation, they're covered from the influence of combustion. With the exception of being occidental, from what you describe Mercury is doing pretty great.

Venus however is really, really hurt by the combustion. She's in a day chart, in fall, and combustion only makes it worse.



It's important not to see dignities as quantitative, but as qualitative. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but it really helps in attempting to avoid getting confused in situations like this. I find that listing out what each condition means helps to give you a more concrete idea of what the planet is doing.

So Saturn is first of all in a day chart, which is good for Saturn. It means he's going to be less malefic. Saturn in detriment means that he's self defeating and can't do what he wants to do. Being in his own triplicity means that he has support....depending on what the triplicity lords are doing. You already mentioned the Sun who is angular in the 10th. However if the Sun is in Virgo, that means that he can't see Saturn by any aspect, which isn't helpful at all. Saturn being in his own bound or terms means that he has administration over his own affairs. He can't do whatever he wants to do (as if he were in his own sign), but he does have some say in how his significations get brought about.

So I'd say that this Saturn in Leo is rough. He's still inclined to try to be positive by being in a day chart, but being in detriment stops him from doing anything really that well. Being in his own terms he might produce a few of his positive meanings, but rather sporadically and generally with a lot of struggle. He's really dependent on the Sun, since the Sun is his ruler by sign and is part of the same triplicity. However the Sun can't see Saturn by any aspect, so they're disconnected. The Sun can't help. The only recourse would be to look to see what Jupiter is doing.

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...5&postcount=16

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........there's a lot of confusion with the Cazimi doctrines, but I only see the power when the chart is cast and the Planet is already Cazimi.

For movements, like transits, directions and such where Planets become Cazimi, what I have seen is more akin to a crisis point, or maybe turning point, as in "decision-making-time."

That's more in keeping with the significations.

A Planet entering Combustion is fearful, hesitant, reluctant, over-powered, over-whelmed (depending on the Planet's Station) and then at the time the Planet becomes Cazimi there is a brief moment of clarity -- where a decision is made or action is taken or a defining event occurs (for example mechanical or structural failure in an aircraft or ship) and then the Planet re-enters Combustion and escapes....embarked on whatever direction it chose to take during the Cazimi period (and the Planet's Station will help define that).

Whether the decision/turning-point/action-taken is good/bad or positive/negative is going to depend on whether or not the Sun is Benefic or Malefic and whether there is Reception (and other factors in the chart).
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Unread 10-02-2019, 03:19 PM
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Re: Interpreting the dignities of Mercury and Saturn in this chart

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Some quotes on the Hellenistic concept of "chariots"

Rhetorius (Astrological Compendium, Holden Translation p.25)

Quote:
The planets are in their own chariots when they are found in their own domicile or exaltation or terms; and they rejoice in these places even when they are found under the Sun beams, for the benefics increase their good and the malefics are changed into a good influence
Porphyry (Introduction, Section 25)

Quote:
The planets are considered to be in their chariots, whenever they are in their own places, such as their own signs, trigons, exaltations, or bounds. And a planet in this position is quite powerful, even if it is under the beams of the sun.
It seems that this particular concept doesn't crop up as often after the Hellenistic period, but I'm inclined to think that it makes sense. If you have protection by being in your own place or seat, you have some kind of coverage from the rays of the Sun. The planet might still be hidden, but not hurt or weakened.
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Unread 10-02-2019, 08:39 PM
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Re: Interpreting the dignities of Mercury and Saturn in this chart

«.......Concerning Chariots
Planets are in their own chariots when
they should be found in their own house [domicile],
exaltation,
or boundaries [terms].
And they rejoice at these places
even if they are found under the beams of the Sun.
For the benefics augment the good things, and
the malefics change to benefics......»
(Antiochus, Chap. 43, Schmidt's translation)
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Unread 10-09-2019, 12:15 AM
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Re: Interpreting the dignities of Mercury and Saturn in this chart

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Originally Posted by Clair Y View Post
I am looking at a chart in which Mercury is in domicile in Virgo yet is combust. Venus is in fall and also combust such that they are at 4, 5 & 6° respectively (Venus, Sun, Mercury).
Is Venus Rx? Because that would be resistance. See Abu Mashar and Ibn-Ezra. You have a light planet (Venus) followed by a heavy planet (Sun) followed by a planet that is lighter than Venus (Mercury).

If Venus "turns back" (goes Rx) that's resistance.

Also, three planets in a sign are treated as a unit and not as individual planets. The three planets function together as one thing and not as three separate planets.

Quote:
Mercury is in a partile sextile with Chiron....
What about Telstar? Chiron is a non-event. That's like saying a planet is in aspect to a GPS satellite, which is silly.

It would be illogical to consider Chiron and then reject the other 10,000+ celestial bodies in space.

Quote:
Regarding Saturn, could he be assessed as the stronger planet despite being in detriment?

No, not only is Saturn in detriment, he's cadent in H9 and in opposition to H3 so the affairs of H3 will not work out well.

The good news is since Saturn is inconjunct the Capricorn H2 which he rules as well, he won't negatively affect it as much, so at least the native has that going for him/her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sworm09 View Post
I wouldn't say Mercury is afflicted. A concept that you see in Hellenistic astrology and early Medieval astrology is the idea of planets being in their "chariots". A planet in their own domicile or exaltation (Rhetorius mentions terms as well) is protected from being combust. So when a planet is in domicile or exaltation, they're covered from the influence of combustion. With the exception of being occidental, from what you describe Mercury is doing pretty great.
Hi sworm09,

I wouldn't disagree, but I think assessing a planet's strength or weakness is a judgment call by the astrologer and I haven't found a point system or any mathematical equation that works for that.

I think the whole concept of strength/weakness is misconstrued too. A weak planet still functions, maybe not as effectively as a powerful planet. I look at strength/weakness in relation to other planets and not for a particular planet.
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