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  #51  
Unread 11-29-2016, 06:31 PM
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Re: Uranus is a malefic

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Depends on what? I'm not sure most people would admit that their lives are "erratic and crazy" offhand.
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Depends on what?
Depends on the rest of the chart, as always.

Uranus does tend to disorganize but if a person has an Earthy fixed chart, for example, it's not likely they would come across as erratic even though they have Sun opposite Uranus. They'd still be very willful, overly concerned with living life on their own terms and not being controlled by "authority", have an abrupt manner, and a tendency to contrarianism for its sake...to start with. These traits are dialed up or down depending on other factors, like all aspects.

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  #52  
Unread 11-29-2016, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sibylline View Post
Depends on the rest of the chart, as always.

Uranus does tend to disorganize but if a person has an Earthy fixed chart, for example, it's not likely they would come across as erratic even though they have Sun opposite Uranus. They'd still be very willful, overly concerned with living life on their own terms and not being controlled by "authority", have an abrupt manner, and a tendency to contrarianism for its sake...to start with. These traits are dialed up or down depending on other factors, like all aspects.
Oh, well, yes, I'm exactly like that. At least that last part.
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  #53  
Unread 11-29-2016, 07:07 PM
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Re: Uranus is a malefic

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Depends on the rest of the chart, as always.

Uranus does tend to disorganize but if a person has an Earthy fixed chart, for example, it's not likely they would come across as erratic even though they have Sun opposite Uranus. They'd still be very willful, overly concerned with living life on their own terms and not being controlled by "authority", have an abrupt manner, and a tendency to contrarianism for its sake...to start with. These traits are dialed up or down depending on other factors, like all aspects.
Oh, I hate authority figures and following the rules :3
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  #54  
Unread 11-29-2016, 07:18 PM
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Re: Uranus is a malefic

I've got Blue Saturn smelling up my ninth house something foul. It's also trine my ascendant but.....that's it.

Pretty sure I'm sanely-insane, though it has naught to do with doggy style Saturn.
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  #55  
Unread 11-29-2016, 11:31 PM
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Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

A truism of modern astrology is that planets symbolize various energies or life-themes. When a natal aspect or transit goes well for us, we've probably mastered, more or less, what that planet represents. When we hate it or struggle with it, we have a lot to learn from it. We need to turn that planet into our teacher, not the trickster, to paraphrase Steven Forrest.

Uranus rules sudden upsets of various kinds, but it is also the great liberator. If we are open to change and new ways of experiencing and thinking about life, it will go a whole lot better for us.

People who have difficulty with Uranus generally do not welcome change. Possibly thinking that, "The devil you know is better than the devil you don't know." But sometimes a comfortable rut isn't what we need in life. Challenge and uncertainty may prove to be our allies, once we adjust to a new scenario.

People with Uranus square sun or Mars tend to be the **** kickers and disturbers of their group. Generally it is beneficial if they can recognize their need for rapid inner growth, rather than pasting disruption on other people who may have very different life-maps.

p.s. I have Uranus conjunct MC, trine sun and Mars and square ascendant. My sun, Mercury, and Venus are in Aquarius. I don't find Uranus to be compassionate (David) but it does question old, stultifying, and harmful ways of doing things.

You know the saying, "You have to break a few eggs to make an omelet." Some of us would rather make the omelet.
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Last edited by waybread; 11-29-2016 at 11:37 PM.
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  #56  
Unread 11-29-2016, 11:48 PM
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Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

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I've never seen any evidence of Uranus being humanitarian. Uranus seems as selfish as Mars or Pluto. The humanitarian ideas about Uranus resulted from its being named as ruler of Aquarius. However, unlike Aquarius, Uranus has no ties or concerns with others. This is why Uranus can be particularly difficult in connection with affiliative planets like Venus.

In The Art of Predictive Astrology Carol Rushman wrote that Uranus, natally or in transit, is associated with divorce: "Uranus is a selfish planet. It wants things on its own terms [...]"
Why call a planet "selfish"? This poor woman must have had a particularly nasty divorce.

Uranus transiting the seventh house can deal with sudden change (Uranus) in a marriage (7th house.) But I've had Uranus in my 7th house for a bit, and I've been married for 20 years. On the other hand, my husband and I enjoy RVing, hiking in remote places, and canoeing, so we introduce a lot of novelty into our lifestyle without having to turf out the marriage.

A planet cannot be selfish. People can be selfish.

A planet is impersonal.

To a committed Capricorn or Taurus, I can see Uranus rolling up as a Heap of Bad News. But to those of us who do not fear the future, Uranus can be liberating.

Again (David) Uranus is impersonal. But it will break up old structures that harm or enslave people in some way. It may seem compassionate to liberate people, but Uranus and Aquarius are not watery or emotional in their essence.

Venus can be horribly jealous, polyamorous, luxury-loving, indolent, and other un-wonderful traits. Again, she's impersonal. What you do with Venus is different.
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  #57  
Unread 11-30-2016, 12:17 AM
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Re: Uranus is a malefic

You make an excellent point Waybread.
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  #58  
Unread 11-30-2016, 01:15 AM
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Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

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People who have difficulty with Uranus generally do not welcome change. Possibly thinking that, "The devil you know is better than the devil you don't know."
Is it possible that a person just sees Uranus as malefic, meaning not benefic or neutral?

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Why call a planet "selfish"? This poor woman must have had a particularly nasty divorce.
I have no idea if she did but I don't think that matters. She is hardly the only astrologer to use the word selfish in relation to Uranus. Some people just observe and describe astrology, without feeling the need for euphemisms.

It's clear planets don't actually have human characteristics; planets have been described using human traits for a very long time, if not always.
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Unread 11-30-2016, 02:12 AM
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Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

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Is it possible that a person just sees Uranus as malefic, meaning not benefic or neutral?
Absolutely. In traditional astrology there are malefics and benefics. Modern astrology tends not to divide planets in that way, but to see each planet as having potentially beneficial and negative influences. But how these play out is up to us in a "choice centered" vs. in a fatalistic sort of astrology.

What if disruption of your status quo were actually beneficial? Uranus might just be the unexpected windfall or serendipity. It might be the sudden release of a big burden off your shoulders.

I have to ask how you personally interpret Uranus key words like "sudden change"?

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I have no idea if she did but I don't think that matters. She is hardly the only astrologer to use the word selfish in relation to Uranus. Some people just observe and describe astrology, without feeling the need for euphemisms.

It's clear planets don't actually have human characteristics; planets have been described using human traits for a very long time, if not always.
The word "selfish" is highly subjective and situational. To you, your actions might feel liberating. To me, they might appear selfish. If we unpack the word "selfish" its deployment might be very self-serving. For example, we could imagine a very controlling, soul-destroying spouse who describes her husband's decision to leave her as "selfish," without her considering how her own disrespectful, domineering behaviour became intolerable.

I am not talking about euphemisms. Uranus is impersonal. It is not watery or relational. Hard luck.

Maybe Uranus is a tough planet for needy Cancers, domineering Scorpios, tradition-bound Capricorns, or stability-craving Taureans. That doesn't make Uranus inherently "selfish."

Planets rule human traits. As you know, Mercury=communication, Mars=aggression. But how these planets operate depends on their sign (Cancer or Aries??) and aspects, and the domain of life in which they operate depends on the house. No planet is inherently selfish or loving and giving.

You might also consider the placement of Uranus in your chart or those of persons of interest. For example, a planet opposite one's sun is probably difficult, disowned, and may appear as a dread of disruptive individuals. Sounds malefic, no? But really, it is showing the individual's need to incorporate more out-of-character, novel people and activities in her life.

Another point about choice-centered astrology is that we can deliberately incorporate more Uranian activities in our lives in order to engage more productively with Uranus. For example, tomorrow, plan an activity that seems completely out-of-character for you!
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Last edited by waybread; 11-30-2016 at 02:15 AM.
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  #60  
Unread 11-30-2016, 02:22 AM
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Re: Uranus is a malefic

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Reading a chart (or tea leaves or chicken entrails or whathaveyou) is a very different act than reading a book. When someone reads a book, the author had a particular intent that the reader is supposed to pick up on. The main message you get from reading stars is "neener neener" because otherwise they would have made themselves easier to read.
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Unread 11-30-2016, 02:35 AM
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Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

One other point about Uranus as the modern ruler of Aquarius. (Saturn is the traditional ruler.)

Astrology was pretty much moribund in Europe by the early 1800s, but among the English-speaking astrologers still practicing, one proposed Uranus for Aquarius according to the following logic, based upon (a) planets' distance from the earth related to traditional sign rulerships, and (b) Greek mythology on the gods' parents and offspring (theogeny.)

Accordingly:

Mars=Scorpio Mars was the son of Jupiter.
Jupiter=Sagittarius Jupiter was the son of Saturn
Saturn= Capricorn Saturn was the son of Uranus.
Saturn=Aquarius. (ditto)

(Then you go back down the other side, with Jupiter traditionally ruling Pisces, and Mars ruling Aries.)

So if we have a planet beyond Saturn, Uranus with Aquarius is a logical fit.

Initially, it was hard for early 19th astrologers to determine how Uranus worked in a chart, and it couldn't shoehorn into the traditional table of essential dignities. They proposed that Uranus worked like Saturn, which did fit into the traditional scheme of essential dignities..

(For anyone who wants to track this history, there is an old thread on Uranus and Aries over at the Skyscript forum.)

Roll the clock forward, and modern astrologers were less taken with the doomy and gloomy notion of malefics. The discovery of Uranus seemed to coincide with the American and early European revolutions. In looking at event charts, Uranus seem to coincide with aviation and scientists and scientific discoveries.

There isn't anything specifically compassionate about political revolutions, other than that if you're an oppressed French peasant, overthrowing the monarchy, who taxes you heavily to amuse themselves at an opulent scale, probably seems like a good idea.

Aquarius is the fixed air sign. Its orientation is therefore primarily mental, and, well, fixed.
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  #62  
Unread 11-30-2016, 02:50 AM
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Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

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You might also consider the placement of Uranus in your chart or those of persons of interest. For example, a planet opposite one's sun is probably difficult, disowned, and may appear as a dread of disruptive individuals. Sounds malefic, no? But really, it is showing the individual's need to incorporate more out-of-character, novel people and activities in her life.
I don't think that's necessarily true of a planet opposite one's sun.
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Reading a chart (or tea leaves or chicken entrails or whathaveyou) is a very different act than reading a book. When someone reads a book, the author had a particular intent that the reader is supposed to pick up on. The main message you get from reading stars is "neener neener" because otherwise they would have made themselves easier to read.
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Unread 11-30-2016, 03:25 AM
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Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

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My take? It's a malefic of the highest order and I'm amazed many intelligent astrologers don't see that. That doesn't mean it is all bad but acknowledging that it is malefic is pretty crucial to understanding it. "Planet of Altruism" has to be a joke.
My take? The planets get their natures by/because of their proximity to the Sun. Understand, there are 4 qualities, hot, cold, moist and dry. Of these two are active (that is produce) and two are resultive (as in occur because of.) In the model of the planetary spheres, the Sun produces heat and the Earth produces moisture. Heat expands, cold condenses, dryness separates and moisture unifies.

Saturn resides in the furthermost planetary sphere, and is a malefic because it is excessively cold and dry. The outer planets, if we include them in the spherical model, lie in the realm of the fixed stars, and because they cast no rays are extremely cold and dry. To me, that's proof enough that they should all be classified as malefic.

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I agree with Zadkiel except I don't know about it not being as powerful as Saturn or Mars. Possibly in transit or event charts that is true; I'm not completely sure, but natally is as powerful. The effects show up through dynamic aspects (conjunction, opposition, square). Uranus is without a doubt implicated in health problems of the brain and PNS.
Ah, see, this is why I have very little use for Uranus. I have it natally conjunct my Sun in lattitude, longitude and declination. As far as I can tell, it has done little or nothing for nor against me. Just as I have Pluto exactly opposed my Moon, and Neptune exactly trine my Moon. Honestly, I can classify all of them as malefic in some way logically, but then logically Saturn has his uses even though he is a malefic by nature. The outer planets emperically, to me, have zero effect that can't be explained another way in the chart, but if you are going to use them, understand that the traditional malefics, Saturn and Mars, have their uses. Sometimes a dose of nasty is exactly what you need.
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  #64  
Unread 11-30-2016, 04:41 AM
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Smile Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

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My take? The planets get their natures by/because of their proximity to the Sun. Understand, there are 4 qualities, hot, cold, moist and dry. Of these two are active (that is produce) and two are resultive (as in occur because of.) In the model of the planetary spheres, the Sun produces heat and the Earth produces moisture. Heat expands, cold condenses, dryness separates and moisture unifies.

Saturn resides in the furthermost planetary sphere, and is a malefic because it is excessively cold and dry. The outer planets, if we include them in the spherical model, lie in the realm of the fixed stars, and because they cast no rays are extremely cold and dry. To me, that's proof enough that they should all be classified as malefic.



Ah, see, this is why I have very little use for Uranus. I have it natally conjunct my Sun in lattitude, longitude and declination. As far as I can tell, it has done little or nothing for nor against me. Just as I have Pluto exactly opposed my Moon, and Neptune exactly trine my Moon. Honestly, I can classify all of them as malefic in some way logically, but then logically Saturn has his uses even though he is a malefic by nature. The outer planets emperically, to me, have zero effect that can't be explained another way in the chart, but if you are going to use them, understand that the traditional malefics, Saturn and Mars, have their uses. Sometimes a dose of nasty is exactly what you need.
If it's about proximity to the Sun, Mars would be a Benefic and Jupiter would join Saturn as a Malefic, as the two outermost Traditional Planets. There is no "logic" being employed here, only some sort of prejudiced dislike. If you view Aquarius as an "altruistic" Sign (I said "if") how can you explain its rulership by Saturn, which Traditionalists consider the "Greater Malefic" in both its day and night versions?

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Unread 11-30-2016, 05:58 AM
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Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

The 4 qualities of temperature and moisture come to us via Aristotle and Ptolemy (ca. 150 CE.) The real reason why Mars and Saturn are malefics is because these planetary gods ruled warfare and drought in ancient Babylon. Their astrology pre-dated the Greeks', and much of the foundations of astrology are Babylonian in origin. Ptolemy's big project was to make astrology more scientific, according to the science of his day, and to strip out the mythology and magic from contemporary astrological beliefs and practices.

The traditional belief in malefics is a lot of the reason why I prefer modern western astrology. Yes, bad things happen to good people. But Saturn and Mars have as many positive and negative attributes as the other planets. If we think about Olympic athletes, Mars gives energy and ability, but Saturn teaches persistence, self-discipline, and the hard training.
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  #66  
Unread 11-30-2016, 06:59 AM
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Given my warm feelings for the Uranian-Effect, which I believe increases mental abilities, I have mixed feelings about the terms "Malefic" and "Benefic". I actually DO think Saturn + a Saturnian-influenced Mars are the primary cause of cruelty and warfare. It's the most difficult combination to deal with, yet the great majority of people are able to do so--it's those who CAN'T who cause the trouble for everyone else. The question here is whether the Uranian-Effect is a force for good or evil. If increasing mental abilities is EVIL, then we should expect Aquarius, the Sign ruled by the Uranian-Effect, to be seen as an evil Sign. But for most of us, that isn't the case. Any Aquarius haters out there to go along with those who think its Ruler is an evil influence? Btw, the glyph for the Planet is obviously a parabolic antenna. It increases the ability to send and receive Mind-waves, which is what the glyph signifies.

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Unread 11-30-2016, 07:27 AM
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Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

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If it's about proximity to the Sun, Mars would be a Benefic and Jupiter would join Saturn as a Malefic, as the two outermost Traditional Planets. There is no "logic" being employed here, only some sort of prejudiced dislike. If you view Aquarius as an "altruistic" Sign (I said "if") how can you explain its rulership by Saturn, which Traditionalists consider the "Greater Malefic" in both its day and night versions?
Those purely mechanical models can't really explain astrology. We've seen that in the Pluto threads already.

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Given my warm feelings for the Uranian-Effect, which I believe increases mental abilities, I have mixed feelings about the terms "Malefic" and "Benefic". I actually DO think Saturn + a Saturnian-influenced Mars are the primary cause of cruelty and warfare. It's the most difficult combination to deal with, yet the great majority of people are able to do so--it's those who CAN'T who cause the trouble for everyone else. The question here is whether the Uranian-Effect is a force for good or evil. If increasing mental abilities is EVIL, then we should expect Aquarius, the Sign ruled by the Uranian-Effect, to be seen as an evil Sign. But for most of us, that isn't the case. Any Aquarius haters out there to go along with those who think its Ruler is an evil influence? Btw, the glyph for the Planet is obviously a parabolic antenna. It increases the ability to send and receive Mind-waves, which is what the glyph signifies.
You are reading too much into this. That glyph signifies two flying birds. Keep it simple!
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  #68  
Unread 11-30-2016, 07:33 AM
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Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

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The 4 qualities of temperature and moisture come to us via Aristotle and Ptolemy (ca. 150 CE.) The real reason why Mars and Saturn are malefics is because these planetary gods ruled warfare and drought in ancient Babylon. Their astrology pre-dated the Greeks', and much of the foundations of astrology are Babylonian in origin. Ptolemy's big project was to make astrology more scientific, according to the science of his day, and to strip out the mythology and magic from contemporary astrological beliefs and practices.

The traditional belief in malefics is a lot of the reason why I prefer modern western astrology. Yes, bad things happen to good people. But Saturn and Mars have as many positive and negative attributes as the other planets. If we think about Olympic athletes, Mars gives energy and ability, but Saturn teaches persistence, self-discipline, and the hard training.
I guess it all depends on what your actual definition of malefc/benefic is. If you go with the dictionary definition then of course that's a bit archaic and therefore difficult to accept in this day and age.
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Unread 11-30-2016, 07:39 AM
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Those purely mechanical models can't really explain astrology. We've seen that in the Pluto threads already.



You are reading too much into this. That glyph signifies two flying birds. Keep it simple!
I LIKE it: Two Seagulls! Never heard that one, although I used it in a painting that way MANY years ago. Seems like everyone thinks they're bolts of lightning.
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Unread 11-30-2016, 08:04 AM
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Re: Uranus is a malefic

Glad we've finally settled this, hehe.
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Unread 11-30-2016, 05:38 PM
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Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

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I have to ask how you personally interpret Uranus key words like "sudden change"?
I think it's accurate. Incomplete, but fairly accurate.

We'll just agree to disagree on the selfish bit.

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Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
My take? The planets get their natures by/because of their proximity to the Sun. Understand, there are 4 qualities, hot, cold, moist and dry. Of these two are active (that is produce) and two are resultive (as in occur because of.) In the model of the planetary spheres, the Sun produces heat and the Earth produces moisture. Heat expands, cold condenses, dryness separates and moisture unifies.

The outer planets emperically, to me, have zero effect that can't be explained another way in the chart, but if you are going to use them, understand that the traditional malefics, Saturn and Mars, have their uses. Sometimes a dose of nasty is exactly what you need.
Natally I've found plenty of evidence for the outer planets but that's another thread for another day.

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[...]if you are going to use them, understand that the traditional malefics, Saturn and Mars, have their uses. Sometimes a dose of nasty is exactly what you need.
I absolutely agree with this. People have a knee-jerk reaction to the word malefic. It doesn't mean always bad. I think we lose meaning when we try to give everything a positive spin or refuse to look at the negatives.

Also, I've considered it before and I'm thinking very hot and dry for Uranus.
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Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

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If it's about proximity to the Sun, Mars would be a Benefic and Jupiter would join Saturn as a Malefic, as the two outermost Traditional Planets. There is no "logic" being employed here, only some sort of prejudiced dislike.
David, I don't think tsmall actively dislikes Uranus (I could be wrong on that) since she doesn't employ it at all in her astrology. If she does, I'm sure Uranus can deal with that. It won't run to the corner of the room and cry big baby tears.

Although whether someone likes a planet or not seems entirely irrelevant to me. Just about the only thing I concern myself with regarding any astrologer's views is whether I can find evidence for them in reality. In any case, dislike could lead to deeper scrutiny, which would lead to sharper and more in-depth analysis. Not a bad thing, in my view.
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Re: Uranus is a malefic

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Fixed Mars square Uranus in the 4th house. Aha.
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Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

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Those purely mechanical models can't really explain astrology. We've seen that in the Pluto threads already.



You are reading too much into this. That glyph signifies two flying birds. Keep it simple!
Actually, the glyph for Aquarius probably originated in ancient Egypt as their symbol for water. In Babylon, the constellation Aquarius was called "the great one," responsible for bringing winter rains, on which their agriculture depended.

http://www.dkfindout.com/us/history/...g-hieroglyphs/

It wasn't always shown with two wavy lines: sometimes there were 3, sometimes they were joined. It look a while for astrological symbolism to standardize.

A fun factoid is that the constellation Aquarius is generally depicted as a man holding a vase or urn of water. The water he pours is actually the Aquarid meteor shower.
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Smile Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

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Actually, the glyph for Aquarius probably originated in ancient Egypt as their symbol for water. In Babylon, the constellation Aquarius was called "the great one," responsible for bringing winter rains, on which their agriculture depended.

http://www.dkfindout.com/us/history/...g-hieroglyphs/

It wasn't always shown with two wavy lines: sometimes there were 3, sometimes they were joined. It look a while for astrological symbolism to standardize.

A fun factoid is that the constellation Aquarius is generally depicted as a man holding a vase or urn of water. The water he pours is actually the Aquarid meteor shower.
Yeah, the "Aqua" part is unequivocal. I see it as the ability to hold emotions and deal with them without being unduly affected. Water is the "ultimate solvent", and Aquarius is good at solving problems. Capricorn is good at pointing them out, and Pisces is good at ignoring them! The Ryder-Waite Tarot card, "The Star" feminized it, with a female figure pouring out water. It was originally just an overflowing basin corresponding to the ancient-Babylonian "Month of Rain" in the middle portion of Winter. (Helical placement--last Zodiacal constellation visible ABOVE the Eastern Horizon at Sunrise, that time of the seasonal year.)

Last edited by david starling; 11-30-2016 at 07:36 PM.
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