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  #1  
Unread 01-20-2012, 07:33 AM
lazarusx lazarusx is offline
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Aleister Crowley

I was curious to know if anyone has read Crowley's writings on Astrology; i think the book that has been published are the 'gathered' writings from Crowley that have been edited into the publication 'The General Principles of Astrology' by Evangeline Adams.

Im interested in his perspective of Astrology considering his background in occultism, mysticism and magik, and the fact that these writings were well before Linda Goodman and the more psychological approach that astrology takes today.

Anyone had the chance to read any of it and have an opinion?

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Unread 01-20-2012, 08:44 AM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy View Post
yes, i've read the book about 5-6 months ago. It's basically about the esoteric connection between Astrology and the Occult, the problem he doesn't connect them at all, just goes onto tangents and such.
Yeah i had a feeling it might be a bit like that..

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If you're really interested between the connection of the Occult and Astrology, you should look up Manly P Halls writing, Manly's probably the most learned occultist ever, you should talk to Dr. Farr about that, I think he's been to his lectures
Awesome, thanks for the information; yeah im just starting to explore other avenues with astrology, and its relation to the occult is of some interest to me.
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Unread 01-20-2012, 09:33 PM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

I would also suggest other avenues of research. Aleister Crowley was a nutjob who spent his whole life in the pursuit of self-indulgence and the fear of the general public. The ancient Hebrew he started with wasn't good enough, so he and some friends invented "Enochian," which is more or less non-sensical as a language. He moved to the shores of Loch Ness in his later life (not kidding) and did his best to make sure everyone saw him as special or dangerous. What he calls "philosophy" is nothing but a heap of unquestioned opinions rolled up into a ball. What he calls "spiritual truth" is nothing but a self-concocted tale that misunderstands the very foundation of magic. He could perhaps be the worst possible resource for learning the magical side of astrology.

P.S. Look up some of Crowley's associates during and after his time with the golden dawn boys. Several of them started their own "religions" that are more or less based on letting the leaders (themselves) do whatever they want. And, if you've never researched this before, you might be surprised at the "whatever they want" that they really did!
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Unread 01-22-2012, 03:15 AM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

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I would also suggest other avenues of research. Aleister Crowley was a nutjob who spent his whole life in the pursuit of self-indulgence and the fear of the general public. The ancient Hebrew he started with wasn't good enough, so he and some friends invented "Enochian," which is more or less non-sensical as a language. He moved to the shores of Loch Ness in his later life (not kidding) and did his best to make sure everyone saw him as special or dangerous. What he calls "philosophy" is nothing but a heap of unquestioned opinions rolled up into a ball. What he calls "spiritual truth" is nothing but a self-concocted tale that misunderstands the very foundation of magic. He could perhaps be the worst possible resource for learning the magical side of astrology.

P.S. Look up some of Crowley's associates during and after his time with the golden dawn boys. Several of them started their own "religions" that are more or less based on letting the leaders (themselves) do whatever they want. And, if you've never researched this before, you might be surprised at the "whatever they want" that they really did!
Ha, wow.. yeah i know very little about Crowley apart from the obvious so i appreciate the feedback, i just noticed he had written about astrology so i was curious; but from the looks of it.. the writings themselves seem more like incoherent ramblings.
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Unread 01-22-2012, 03:47 AM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

Plus the available Crowley astrology book ranges in price from $60 to over $100!!
You could pretty much treat yourself to an entire astrological (or occult) basic education for the price of that 1 book!
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Unread 01-22-2012, 03:49 AM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

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Originally Posted by lazarusx View Post
Im interested in his perspective of Astrology considering his background in occultism, mysticism and magik, and the fact that these writings were well before Linda Goodman and the more psychological approach that astrology takes today.

Anyone had the chance to read any of it and have an opinion?
Words to the wise: It is utterly pointless to engage the twits on this forum in a discussion on the occult.

But, Crowley's approach to Astrology incorporated the planetary correspondences to the sephiroth on the Tree of Life. This is the road I want to go with Astrology because it blends two subjects I find equally intriguing.
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Unread 01-22-2012, 03:59 AM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

Papus and Mathers (along with Mathers' GD confreres) did the same, and Mathers "take" on astrology is quite interesting (see Part IV in Colquhoun"s "Sword of Wisdom" regarding a few of Mathers astrological concepts) I recovered what is alleged to be a copy of a Mathers' "Flying Role" on astrology from a raft of papers/newletters I purchased years ago at an auction of the First Temple of Astrology organization in Los Angeles, CA; its quite interesting (I had posted a good deal from this "Flying Roll" on another astrology forum, but later deleted this material because of the controversy my application of it on their mundane section, stirred up with the operators of that site)
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Unread 01-22-2012, 09:57 PM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaptInReverie
Words to the wise: It is utterly pointless to engage the twits on this forum in a discussion on the occult.

But, Crowley's approach to Astrology incorporated the planetary correspondences to the sephiroth on the Tree of Life. This is the road I want to go with Astrology because it blends two subjects I find equally intriguing.
Such a discussion would only be pointless if the "twits on this forum" aren't already more experienced than you are. The sephirot were associated with planetary influences more than a thousand years ago. In fact, as is Hebrew habit, that information of great value was protected by disinformation. Many erroneous lists were made and circulated to make sure that no one who wasn't already in the fold could determine which list was real. If you tried to research it, you could easily find five or six different attributions of the sephirot to the planets and have no indication of which one is correct. Crowley didn't add anything to this pursuit that wasn't already there. Perhaps, if you would like to study in this area, you should start by reading a book about the biblical Hebrew language before you read books about Crowley!
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Unread 01-22-2012, 11:12 PM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

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Originally Posted by Mark View Post
The sephirot were associated with planetary influences more than a thousand years ago.
And I suppose you believe the 22 paths were associated with the Tarot more than a thousand years ago too?

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Originally Posted by Mark View Post
In fact, as is Hebrew habit, that information of great value was protected by disinformation. Many erroneous lists were made and circulated to make sure that no one who wasn't already in the fold could determine which list was real.
Really? I thought that Kabalah was an oral tradition.

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If you tried to research it, you could easily find five or six different attributions of the sephirot to the planets and have no indication of which one is correct.
There is no correct set of attributions. Perhaps some are more useful than others, but it is perfectly ok to come up with and use your own system. I did.

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Crowley didn't add anything to this pursuit that wasn't already there. Perhaps, if you would like to study in this area, you should start by reading a book about the biblical Hebrew language before you read books about Crowley!
Actually I do study the Hebrew language.
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Unread 01-22-2012, 11:20 PM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

RaptInReverie: If anyone were to tell you the real history of the 22 paths that were made into the tarot, you would never believe it.
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Unread 01-22-2012, 11:30 PM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

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RaptInReverie: If anyone were to tell you the real history of the 22 paths that were made into the tarot, you would never believe it.
PM me and we'll see.

Oh, and the "twits on this forum" remark was not directed at you or anyone else who commented on this particular thread.
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  #12  
Unread 01-23-2012, 04:27 AM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

Of course the first kabbalistical astrological connections are described in the Sepher Yetzirah (Book of Formation), which scholars have speculated dates to the first 3 centuries AD (soon after the "Bihar", c 1st century)
The "Aesch Mezerapah" (Purifying Fire), several centuries later, makes somewhat different astrological allocations.
We find allocation of the Tree of Life Paths to Tarot Major Arcana symbols beginning in the 1800's, especially by Levi, Papus and Mathers/Westcott.
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Unread 01-23-2012, 01:19 PM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

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Of course the first kabbalistical astrological connections are described in the Sepher Yetzirah (Book of Formation), which scholars have speculated dates to the first 3 centuries AD (soon after the "Bihar", c 1st century)
Yes, but I am specifically speaking of the planets being directly attributed to the sephiroth on the Tree of Life diagram, which didn't exist then (or at least not in the form we recognize today).
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Unread 01-23-2012, 02:15 PM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

Crowley was a total nutjob. No respect for the dude.
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Unread 01-23-2012, 02:45 PM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

I totally agree, Sequestra. But, you have to admit that he was exceptionally eloquent and presented many interesting concepts in his works. As wicked and sordid as he was, I can at least appreciate the knowledge he gained from his experiences.
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Unread 01-23-2012, 02:57 PM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

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RaptInReverie: If anyone were to tell you the real history of the 22 paths that were made into the tarot, you would never believe it.
Mark could you tell me more about this?
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Unread 01-23-2012, 02:58 PM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

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I totally agree, Sequestra. But, you have to admit that he was exceptionally eloquent and presented many interesting concepts in his works. As wicked and sordid as he was, I can at least appreciate the knowledge he gained from his experiences.
Yes, I do agree on that count. You're hard to disagree with

I had an ex with that horrible picture of him wearing the triangle hat on his head while he was leaning on his palms tattooed all over his upper back... *Particularly tangential today*
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Unread 01-23-2012, 03:14 PM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

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Mark could you tell me more about this?
Better yet. Don't PM me Mark. Others here are also interested in the true history of the 22 paths.
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Unread 01-23-2012, 03:20 PM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

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Yes, I do agree on that count. You're hard to disagree with

I had an ex with that horrible picture of him wearing the triangle hat on his head while he was leaning on his palms tattooed all over his upper back... *Particularly tangential today*
You're the first person to tell me that. Maybe we're just similar in thought?

But, yeah, when I began hearing about Crowley, I never imagined I'd ever read or study his work. He was really disturbing and scary. But, when I actually sat down and read his books, he didn't come across as bad.
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Unread 01-23-2012, 05:12 PM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

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Better yet. Don't PM me Mark. Others here are also interested in the true history of the 22 paths.
*all get cozy to listen*
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Unread 01-23-2012, 09:33 PM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

As I said, if anyone were to tell the real history, it would not be believed. Even those who would want to believe would have trouble. It gets a little easier once you accept that modern historians are basically making everything up as they go, gluing facts together with opinions, assumptions, and interpretations. It gets a little easier still when you have found a source of information that is testable to satisfaction, so that you don't have to rest so much on belief. Remember that modern people have no appreciation of the past. We tend to feel that only what gets written down is trustworthy, even though that is the least trustworthy kind of evidence. At times, we even deny real scientific observations and call them "anomalies" because they don't fit what we expected to find. We tend to side with the stories we tell, even when reality shows us that we are wrong. So, it is no surprise that ancient history will never be recovered by the scholarly work of humans.

Still, more than one person has asked, so I'll toss out a tidbit (which, again, I'm sure won't be believed). The 22 paths were formalised a little more than 12,000 years ago by Master Thoth, who was a man, but was revered as a god by the general populace. He was well educated and is today considered by some to be the father of written language. He set the 22 paths into an alphabet which became the foundation for the writing of Hebrew, Phoenician, Greek, Arabic, and many other languages. He knew, however, that the real meaning of the paths would be lost in this usage. So, he created 22 symbols and put them on cards. These paths, shuffled as cards, may be used for divination. Master Thoth knew that the selfish efforts of the diviners and those who would pay them would preserve the symbols in their original form. If you make your money and tell fortunes by casting these cards, who would ever think of changing them? These cards were later expanded to become the modern tarot.

In this way, the original 22 trump cards each correspond to an ancient Hebrew letter (the usages of which are different in modern Hebrew). Each one describes a stage in the development of souls. Every soul must pass through all of these stages in order to complete its development. A complete set of trump cards is therefore able to describe a whole person, thus allowing them to effectively describe real people in divination. There is said to be a 23rd symbol that was intentionally excluded, but will one day be realised. It is said that realisation will have something to do with changes in life on Earth as we know it. If I had to guess at it, I would say it has to do with the "knowledge of good and evil" cycle that we started in the garden.

P.S. Post #22, baby.
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  #22  
Unread 01-23-2012, 09:41 PM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

I can't believe it
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Unread 01-23-2012, 09:42 PM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

Ive heard about this guy, my mum told me. She was into the occult stuff when I was younger. Obviously I share the birthday with him... Im glad Im a happier and kinder person than he seemed to be
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Unread 01-23-2012, 10:13 PM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

Vagabondgirl: I get skeptical whenever anyone starts talking about Master Thoth because easily 90+% of the time the information is false. Sometimes this is disinformation, but often it is just the accidental twisting of stories from generation to generation. I take great care in choosing my sources for ancient information and even these are not beyond question. If your mother has sparked your interest, then I would suggest researching further before drawing any conclusions.
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Unread 01-23-2012, 10:23 PM
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Re: Aleister Crowley

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark View Post
As I said, if anyone were to tell the real history, it would not be believed. Even those who would want to believe would have trouble. It gets a little easier once you accept that modern historians are basically making everything up as they go, gluing facts together with opinions, assumptions, and interpretations. It gets a little easier still when you have found a source of information that is testable to satisfaction, so that you don't have to rest so much on belief. Remember that modern people have no appreciation of the past. We tend to feel that only what gets written down is trustworthy, even though that is the least trustworthy kind of evidence. At times, we even deny real scientific observations and call them "anomalies" because they don't fit what we expected to find. We tend to side with the stories we tell, even when reality shows us that we are wrong. So, it is no surprise that ancient history will never be recovered by the scholarly work of humans.

Still, more than one person has asked, so I'll toss out a tidbit (which, again, I'm sure won't be believed). The 22 paths were formalised a little more than 12,000 years ago by Master Thoth, who was a man, but was revered as a god by the general populace. He was well educated and is today considered by some to be the father of written language. He set the 22 paths into an alphabet which became the foundation for the writing of Hebrew, Phoenician, Greek, Arabic, and many other languages. He knew, however, that the real meaning of the paths would be lost in this usage. So, he created 22 symbols and put them on cards. These paths, shuffled as cards, may be used for divination. Master Thoth knew that the selfish efforts of the diviners and those who would pay them would preserve the symbols in their original form. If you make your money and tell fortunes by casting these cards, who would ever think of changing them? These cards were later expanded to become the modern tarot.

In this way, the original 22 trump cards each correspond to an ancient Hebrew letter (the usages of which are different in modern Hebrew). Each one describes a stage in the development of souls. Every soul must pass through all of these stages in order to complete its development. A complete set of trump cards is therefore able to describe a whole person, thus allowing them to effectively describe real people in divination. There is said to be a 23rd symbol that was intentionally excluded, but will one day be realised. It is said that realisation will have something to do with changes in life on Earth as we know it. If I had to guess at it, I would say it has to do with the "knowledge of good and evil" cycle that we started in the garden.

P.S. Post #22, baby.
It's not the first time I've heard of Thoth being referred to as an actual person. Could you elaborate on the 22 paths? Do they correspond to the tarot as it is ordered from The Fool to The Universe? Is the Rider Waite deck the closest current approximation to the lost original 22 paths as taught by Thoth? Don't be shy, I want to hear more
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