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  #1  
Unread 12-26-2019, 09:46 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Orb-influence

Thanks to whoever came up with this concept originally. It's used by some to actually (Jeff Green, for example) to move a planet into the next House, with the idea being that the Orb leads the way as much as 6 degrees. The actual longitudinal location of a planet has been referred to as the "needle-point", with the Orb extending outward.

But, I'm using it for Sign cusps, not House boundaries, at 5 degrees in advance of whatever indicator it is. So, (in my words) the Orb begins "activating" the qualities of a Sign before the needle-point reaches it, and that influence increases the closer it gets to a Sign-boundary. Similar to how a magnet's effect extends beyond the magnet itself.

This is one way of explaining, for example, why the Sun at the cusp of the next Sign includes a mix of the qualities of both Signs, although it retains the needle-point, Solar rulership of the Sign it's in. You're still of that Sun-sign, but have some characteristics of the next.

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  #2  
Unread 12-26-2019, 09:59 PM
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Re: Orb-influence

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Thanks to whoever came up with this concept originally. It's used by some to actually (Jeff Green, for example) to move a planet into the next House, with the idea being that the Orb leads the way as much as 6 degrees. The actual longitudinal location of a planet has been referred to as the "needle-point", with the Orb extending outward.

But, I'm using it for Sign cusps, not House boundaries, at 5 degrees in advance of whatever indicator it is. So, (in my words) the Orb begins "activating" the qualities of a Sign before the needle-point reaches it, and that influence increases the closer it gets to a Sign-boundary. Similar to how a magnet's effect extends beyond the magnet itself.

This is one way of explaining, for example, why the Sun at the cusp of the next Sign includes a mix of the qualities of both Signs, although it retains the needle-point, Solar rulership of the Sign it's in. You're still of that Sun-sign, but have some characteristics of the next.
The needle-point of the signs is their middle.
The last degree of Pisces is closer to the needle-point of Pisces - so it is clearly Pisces.
The first degree of Aries is closer to the needle-point of Aries - so it is clearly Aries.

Last edited by petosiris; 12-26-2019 at 10:02 PM.
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  #3  
Unread 12-26-2019, 10:15 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Orb-influence

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
The needle-point of the signs is their middle.
The last degree of Pisces is closer to the needle-point of Pisces - so it is clearly Pisces.
The first degree of Aries is closer to the needle-point of Aries - so it is clearly Aries.
Not my nomenclature. If it's already in use regarding the Signs, I'll call it the longitudinal-point.
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Unread 12-26-2019, 10:20 PM
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Re: Orb-influence

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Not my nomenclature. If it's already in use regarding the Signs, I'll call it the longitudinal-point.
In my estimation, last degrees of Pisces are more like Gemini, Libra and Aquarius, while the first degrees of Aries are most like Aries.
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Unread 12-26-2019, 10:29 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Orb-influence

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In my estimation, last degrees of Pisces are more like Gemini, Libra and Aquarius, while the first degrees of Aries are most like Aries.
What's the reasoning?
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  #6  
Unread 12-26-2019, 10:34 PM
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Re: Orb-influence

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What's the reasoning?
In my system of terms, but really in all system of terms and most divisions actually*, the first term is given to the ruler of the same place, while the last to the ruler of the preceding place. The planets enter with a bang so to say - think about how the first degrees of the equinoctial and solstitial signs are the beginning of the seasons, where the planets change directions and the greatest change of their powers occur - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...90&postcount=5

* this was true for all monomoiria we've discussed if you remember - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=128737

Last edited by petosiris; 12-26-2019 at 10:50 PM.
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Unread 12-26-2019, 10:54 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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In my system of terms, but really in all system of terms and most divisions actually*, the first term is given to the ruler of the same place, while the last to the ruler of the preceding place. The planets enter with a bang so to say - think about how the first degrees of the equinoctial and solstitial signs are the beginning of the seasons, where the planets change directions and the greatest change of their powers occur - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...90&postcount=5

* this was true for all monomoiria we've discussed if you remember - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=128737
I can accept that as a parallel system. Except, the seasons, physically speaking, often manifest their effects gradually, sometimes beginning earlier, sometimes later.
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  #8  
Unread 12-26-2019, 10:59 PM
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Re: Orb-influence

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I can accept that as a parallel system. Except, the seasons, physically speaking, often manifest their effects gradually, sometimes beginning earlier, sometimes later.
The ancient scientists definitely had that in mind. They put the exaltation of the Sun at the vernal equinox, and the exaltation of Saturn at the autumnal equinox, for this very reason. The solid places are in the middle of the seasons, so the house of the Sun is not in Cancer, but in Leo, which is the hottest sign due to the seasonal lag. The first days of Leo are if I remember correctly the hottest in most temperate regions. Have you read my explanations for the traditional dignities yet - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=130894 ?
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Unread 12-26-2019, 11:07 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Orb-influence

Have to go--talk later.
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  #10  
Unread 12-27-2019, 06:37 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Orb-influence

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The ancient scientists definitely had that in mind. They put the exaltation of the Sun at the vernal equinox, and the exaltation of Saturn at the autumnal equinox, for this very reason. The solid places are in the middle of the seasons, so the house of the Sun is not in Cancer, but in Leo, which is the hottest sign due to the seasonal lag. The first days of Leo are if I remember correctly the hottest in most temperate regions. Have you read my explanations for the traditional dignities yet - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=130894 ?
Excellent presentation!
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  #11  
Unread 12-27-2019, 10:56 AM
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Re: Orb-influence

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Thanks to whoever came up with this concept originally. It's used by some to actually (Jeff Green, for example) to move a planet into the next House, with the idea being that the Orb leads the way as much as 6 degrees. The actual longitudinal location of a planet has been referred to as the "needle-point", with the Orb extending outward.

But, I'm using it for Sign cusps, not House boundaries, at 5 degrees in advance of whatever indicator it is. So, (in my words) the Orb begins "activating" the qualities of a Sign before the needle-point reaches it, and that influence increases the closer it gets to a Sign-boundary. Similar to how a magnet's effect extends beyond the magnet itself.

This is one way of explaining, for example, why the Sun at the cusp of the next Sign includes a mix of the qualities of both Signs, although it retains the needle-point, Solar rulership of the Sign it's in. You're still of that Sun-sign, but have some characteristics of the next.

I can't seem to find the original post of this thread. There are no pages associated with it. But what I can read of these last posts is interesting. I tend to put planets 3.5 degrees from a house cusp into the next house. And for sure see qualities of both signs when a planet is near another sign in natal chart readings, but I never really defined exactly how many degrees as a rule. I find the rest of the chart usually suggests the proper orb of influence. I wasn't aware of Jeff Green's role in promoting this practice. Thank you for the post.
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  #12  
Unread 12-27-2019, 04:26 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Orb-influence

Stephen Arroyo uses a 6 degree cusp Orb to move a planet into the next House.

Jeff Green uses a 5 degree Orb for both Houses and Angles.

Last edited by david starling; 12-27-2019 at 04:30 PM.
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  #13  
Unread 12-27-2019, 04:32 PM
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Re: Orb-influence

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Stephen Arroyo uses a 6 degree cusp to move a planet into the next House.
You mean orb? I used to do 1/6 of the Placidus house belongs to the next, because Placidus is not equal houses to be based on the ecliptic, but I found that it is wrong to do that, just as it is wrong to have blendings and offsets near the equinoxes, solstices and at the 1/3 and 2/3 of the seasons (which are months).
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Unread 12-27-2019, 04:34 PM
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Re: Orb-influence

Nowadays, I consider a planet that is one minute above the Ascendant or one minute below the Descendant to be pre-ascending and declining, because it is pre-ascending and declining. Nature has gifted us a map and even four markers where it changes its causative powers, we have to follow them.

Last edited by petosiris; 12-27-2019 at 04:43 PM.
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Unread 12-27-2019, 04:43 PM
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Nowadays, I consider a planet that is one minute above the Ascendant or below the Descendant to be pre-ascending and declining. Nature has gifted us a map and even four markers where it changes its causative powers, we have to follow them.
Why use Orbs to begin with, if they have no effect?
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Unread 12-27-2019, 04:53 PM
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Re: Orb-influence

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Why use Orbs to begin with, if they have no effect?
You mean why the degrees of the aspects matter if the sign boundaries are so hard?

I ask this question here - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=131151

And try to answer it here - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...9&postcount=15

Nature has shown that the effects of the angles and seasons are enclosed, but they are not enclosing the effects of the planets, because planets are totally different thing from signs and houses, and are not interchangeable.

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At the equator, the same configurations occur, but not because of the zodiac, but because of the angles. But notice how superfluous is the objection of those who want the boundaries of the places to prevent configurations - is the Moon at 1 Aries moving away from the Sun at 30 Pisces, not in conjunction, and doesn't it have the same effect on the tides, as if it were at 30 Pisces? The predomination by place is surely different, but this does not affect the configurations, which are almost the same in daylight anyways, even though that one is moving over the half, which has an effect on the Moon, but not on the configuration, for the planet is in the middle of its influence, while the place is around the middle of its influence, which is the 15th degree, and which does not spill over the other places. Finally, if the configurations were hinged on the zodiac, rather than the other way around, there will be no aspects at the equator, which is contrary to reason - there are phases. Besides, some hexagons occur within same seasons, while others within neighbouring seasons, some trigons occur within neighbouring seasons, while others within contrary seasons, yet no one changes his interpretation due to hard boundaries of the seasons, but rather because of the distance of signs.
That is just my opinion though.

You can see how this works in my treatise - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=130820

Planets in the 12th can be in conjunction with the Ascendant, without becoming angular, why would they become angular (when they are clearly declining) because of an aspect?
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  #17  
Unread 12-27-2019, 10:26 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Orb-influence

I view the Signs as a continuum, with a blending of qualities at the cusps. For some reason, this is anathema to many astrologers, who insist that they're "walled-off" from one another, with no blending possible. Be that as it may, the concept of Orb-influence extending BEYOND the position of a planet's (or, any transiting indicator's) Longitudinal-point along the zodiac, is a different matter entirely.

Last edited by david starling; 12-27-2019 at 10:30 PM.
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Unread 12-27-2019, 10:38 PM
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Re: Orb-influence

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I view the Signs as a continuum, with a blending of qualities at the cusps. For some reason, this is anathema to many astrologers, who insist that they're "walled-off" from one another, with no blending possible. Be that as it may, the concept of Orb-influence extending BEYOND the position of a planet's (or, any transiting indicator's) Longitudinal-point along the zodiac, is a different matter entirely.
No, I would say there is blending, but there is predominance and preponderance of the element of the sign it is within. Surely you will agree that:

The last degree of Pisces is closer to the needle-point of Pisces - so it is clearly Pisces
The first degree of Aries is closer to the needle-point of Aries - so it is clearly Aries

Astrology deals with universals, not atomic particulars. It doesn't need that kind of precision.

Last edited by petosiris; 12-27-2019 at 10:40 PM.
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Unread 12-27-2019, 10:57 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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No, I would say there is blending, but there is predominance and preponderance of the element of the sign it is within. Surely you will agree that:

The last degree of Pisces is closer to the needle-point of Pisces - so it is clearly Pisces
The first degree of Aries is closer to the needle-point of Aries - so it is clearly Aries

Astrology deals with universals, not atomic particulars. It doesn't need that kind of precision.
Yes, it's graduated blending. I use a 5 degree cusp for it, with blending gradually increasing towards the Sign-boundaries. So, using the boundary as the 0 point, from 5 to 25 degrees of any Sign contains that Sign's qualities only.
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Unread 12-27-2019, 10:59 PM
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Re: Orb-influence

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Yes, it's graduated blending. I use a 5 degree cusp for it, with blending gradually increasing towards the Sign-boundaries. So, using the boundary as the 0 point, from 5 to 25 degrees of any Sign contains that Sign's qualities only.
Read this difficult post that supports both blendings and barriers and think again:
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...9&postcount=15

The first 5 degrees of Aries are blended more with the next 15 degrees of Aries and not with the last 10 degrees of Pisces.

AD INFINITUM this is true for the whole zodiac.

Last edited by petosiris; 12-27-2019 at 11:10 PM.
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Unread 12-27-2019, 11:19 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: Orb-influence

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Read this difficult post that supports both blendings and barriers and think again:
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...9&postcount=15

The first 5 degrees of Aries are blended more with the next 15 degrees of Aries and not with the last 10 degrees of Pisces.

AD INFINITUM this is true for the whole zodiac.
The least blending is in the 4th degree and the 25th degree of a Sign. Blending is greatest in the 1st degree and 29th degree. (As I'm using Sign-blending. It's a straightforward, linear gradation.)

Last edited by david starling; 12-27-2019 at 11:24 PM.
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  #22  
Unread 12-27-2019, 11:23 PM
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Re: Orb-influence

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The least blending is in the 4th degree and the 25th degree of a Sign. Blending is greatest in the 1st degree and 29th degree.
Continuum, not blending at just cusps. Don't forget that the last degrees of the preceding sign are blended by the degrees of the following sign, while the next degrees of the same sign are blended more and more by the degrees of the same sign.
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Unread 12-27-2019, 11:27 PM
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Smile Re: Orb-influence

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Continuum, not blending at just cusps. Don't forget that the last degrees of the preceding sign are blended by the degrees of the following sign, while the next degrees of the same sign are blended more and more by the degrees of the same sign.
NO blending from the 5th degree to the 25th degree, as I view it.
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  #24  
Unread 12-27-2019, 11:29 PM
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Re: Orb-influence

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NO blending from the 5th degree to the 25th degree, as I view it.
That is not consistent and not a continuum.
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  #25  
Unread 12-28-2019, 12:08 AM
david starling david starling is offline
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That is not consistent and not a continuum.
The 12/12 system explains the continuum. I'll get back to you on that.
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