Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Natal Astrology > Dignities & debilities

Dignities & debilities Board for discussing planets in dignities and debilities in natal charts.


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #76  
Unread 11-30-2016, 07:45 PM
AppLeo's Avatar
AppLeo AppLeo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 11,565
Re: Uranus is a malefic

Aquarius is actually a water sign! :O

__________________
Reality will be the final judge of our virtues and vices
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Unread 11-30-2016, 08:17 PM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 20,698
Smile Re: Uranus is a malefic

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
Aquarius is actually a water sign! :O
It's a Sky-sign like Virgo--atmospheric. But Aquarius is about the clouds that hold the water-vapor that condenses into rain. As an Earth-sign, Virgo is about the entire atmosphere as one of the three terrestrial Realms; Capricorn--Earth's waters, and Taurus, Earth's solid land. Virgo is Earth/Air, and Capricorn is Earth/Water. Winged Maiden (Athena-Nike) symbolizes Virgo; and the Goatfish, Capricorn; solid, land dweller, originally the Ox, for Taurus.

Last edited by david starling; 11-30-2016 at 08:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Unread 11-30-2016, 08:17 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,528
Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

Well, a "dose of nasty" doesn't exactly sound like a heap of wonderfulness.

tsmall, I submit that you do experience Uranus. You are aware that it is the modern ruler of astrology, and that in modern astrology a planet conjunct the sun (identity) is not weakened by being combust. Rather, it shows what we identify (sun) with. When you've broken with convention out of a strong gut-level knowledge that, "I gotta to be me!"*-- that impetus is sun-Uranus. I would venture to suggest that with sun-Uranus in Libra, equality and a certain amount of freedom in twosome relationships is very important to you.

* You recall this song by Sammy Davis, Jr.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbLlCxK0pHY

Davis had sun square Uranus. Seniors may recall him as part of a "hip" 1960s/70s group of actors and singers called the "rat pack," known as a group of celebrity Bad Boys.

I am thankful that one of the first astrology books I got my hands on when I first started studying astrology around 1990 was Steven Forrest, The Inner Sky. A modern astrologer, Forrest took a very dynamic, choice-centered approach to planets, signs, and houses.

In Forrest's astrology, planets have two natures, which he terms "functional" or planets as "teachers;" and dysfunctional, or planets as "tricksters." We might question the binary, but it's no more binary than "benefic" and "malefic."

As teacher, Uranus encourages us to throw off the yoke of arbitrary traditions, established primarily to benefit people who don't care about our happiness. A name for this process is "liberation.

As trickster, Uranus gets our car totaled in the Safeway parking lot--when we were too preoccupied with our thoughts to look both ways. But after the insurance dust settles, maybe we've gotten the new car we really wanted. Maybe we did land in the hospital in traction, but that sojourn gave us time to rethink our direction in life, when we were too busy to make positive change before.

I don't want to paste a happy smiley face on this. Sudden upsets can be horrible, indeed. But in choice-centered astrology, if you foresee a tough Uranus transit or progression coming up, implement into your life some of the more positive attributes of Uranus. Resistance is futile, but what would some constructive change in your life look like?

The "I gotta be me" feeling can appear selfish to others, and may even become so as the trickster. But for a true Uranian to just squelch her true feelings in the name of peace, domesticity, convention, or deference can feel horribly soul-destroying.

And that's not good, either.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Unread 11-30-2016, 08:22 PM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,528
Re: Uranus is a malefic

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
Aquarius is actually a water sign! :O
No, it's an air sign. But the sun is in Aquarius during the winter, which in the Near East and Mediterranean regions where astrology got its start, is their rainy season.

Rain can be construed as atmospheric (air.)
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Unread 11-30-2016, 10:11 PM
AppLeo's Avatar
AppLeo AppLeo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 11,565
Re: Uranus is a malefic

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
It's a Sky-sign like Virgo--atmospheric. But Aquarius is about the clouds that hold the water-vapor that condenses into rain. As an Earth-sign, Virgo is about the entire atmosphere as one of the three terrestrial Realms; Capricorn--Earth's waters, and Taurus, Earth's solid land. Virgo is Earth/Air, and Capricorn is Earth/Water. Winged Maiden (Athena-Nike) symbolizes Virgo; and the Goatfish, Capricorn; solid, land dweller, originally the Ox, for Taurus.
So which earth sign is Earth-fire??

What's Leo?? Fire-water? Sagittarius is Fire-Air, Aries is fire-earth, and Leo is Fire-Water.
__________________
Reality will be the final judge of our virtues and vices
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Unread 11-30-2016, 10:33 PM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 20,698
Smile Re: Uranus is a malefic

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppLeo View Post
So which earth sign is Earth-fire??

What's Leo?? Fire-water? Sagittarius is Fire-Air, Aries is fire-earth, and Leo is Fire-Water.
I actually agree! Don't drink too much fire-water though!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to david starling For This Useful Post:
AppLeo (11-30-2016)
  #82  
Unread 11-30-2016, 11:52 PM
AppLeo's Avatar
AppLeo AppLeo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 11,565
Re: Uranus is a malefic

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
I actually agree! Don't drink too much fire-water though!
Dude, I drink fire-water for breakfast, lunch, and dinner!
__________________
Reality will be the final judge of our virtues and vices
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to AppLeo For This Useful Post:
david starling (11-30-2016)
  #83  
Unread 11-30-2016, 11:58 PM
tsmall's Avatar
tsmall tsmall is offline
Senior Member, Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 3,114
Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
If it's about proximity to the Sun, Mars would be a Benefic and Jupiter would join Saturn as a Malefic, as the two outermost Traditional Planets. There is no "logic" being employed here, only some sort of prejudiced dislike. If you view Aquarius as an "altruistic" Sign (I said "if") how can you explain its rulership by Saturn, which Traditionalists consider the "Greater Malefic" in both its day and night versions?
Sometimes I wonder if you purposefully misunderstand, since I know you to be pretty smart.

Mars is too close to the Sun, which is why he is excessively hot and dry. Jupiter is a hot and moist planet, hot due to proximity to the Sun, moist because his heat is temperate as his orbit is further away than that of Mars (don't take the ancients' word for it, check it out for yourself) and the cooling produces moisture. I do not view Aquarius as an "altruistic" sign; I view Aquarius as a fixed air sign, and I happen to know that the reason Saturn was granted rulership of it is because it opposes Leo. The Thema Mundi is a wondrous thing.

Further, please don't speak for the traditionalists until you understand the traditional point of view. Saturn is the greater malefic, and there are reasons he was assigned to the sect to which he belongs. Same goes for Mars. Not only do people need a little "nasty" to evolve, there is a lot of "nasty" in the world. This is fact, and all the wishing away (or even altruism) cannot change that fact.
__________________
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." ~Mark Twain
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Unread 12-01-2016, 12:11 AM
tsmall's Avatar
tsmall tsmall is offline
Senior Member, Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 3,114
Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
The 4 qualities of temperature and moisture come to us via Aristotle and Ptolemy (ca. 150 CE.) The real reason why Mars and Saturn are malefics is because these planetary gods ruled warfare and drought in ancient Babylon. Their astrology pre-dated the Greeks', and much of the foundations of astrology are Babylonian in origin. Ptolemy's big project was to make astrology more scientific, according to the science of his day, and to strip out the mythology and magic from contemporary astrological beliefs and practices.

The traditional belief in malefics is a lot of the reason why I prefer modern western astrology. Yes, bad things happen to good people. But Saturn and Mars have as many positive and negative attributes as the other planets. If we think about Olympic athletes, Mars gives energy and ability, but Saturn teaches persistence, self-discipline, and the hard training.
Almost. What is missing is that the gods and mythology of the Greeks was really just a reinforcement of astrological themes, a way of cementing them in the lives of the Hellenists, and then later the Romans. It's a case of chicken and egg.

And there is no single traditional astrologer I know (and the number of them is growing daily) who disagree with the idea that there are both postive and negative expressions of these planets. After, the entire cosmos is set to neutral. It's the human component that manifests the energy.
__________________
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." ~Mark Twain
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Unread 12-01-2016, 12:36 AM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 20,698
Smile Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Sometimes I wonder if you purposefully misunderstand, since I know you to be pretty smart.

Mars is too close to the Sun, which is why he is excessively hot and dry. Jupiter is a hot and moist planet, hot due to proximity to the Sun, moist because his heat is temperate as his orbit is further away than that of Mars (don't take the ancients' word for it, check it out for yourself) and the cooling produces moisture. I do not view Aquarius as an "altruistic" sign; I view Aquarius as a fixed air sign, and I happen to know that the reason Saturn was granted rulership of it is because it opposes Leo. The Thema Mundi is a wondrous thing.

Further, please don't speak for the traditionalists until you understand the traditional point of view. Saturn is the greater malefic, and there are reasons he was assigned to the sect to which he belongs. Same goes for Mars. Not only do people need a little "nasty" to evolve, there is a lot of "nasty" in the world. This is fact, and all the wishing away (or even altruism) cannot change that fact.
How does the hot/moist factor apply to Venus? (Sorry, Traditional-astrology really doesn't come naturally to me. Little by little though--it's like a different mindset!)
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Unread 12-01-2016, 12:51 AM
tsmall's Avatar
tsmall tsmall is offline
Senior Member, Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 3,114
Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
How does the hot/moist factor apply to Venus? (Sorry, Traditional-astrology really doesn't come naturally to me. Little by little though--it's like a different mindset!)
Venus is considered "cool" in that her participation in the nocturnal sect makes her cold, but her proximity to the Sun warms her. Some authors called her hot, some cold, but all say it's a temperate coolness.

It's actually easier to backfill the planets in their spheres if you start with understanding the planetary natures.

Saturn, excessively cold and dry (think "Hoth.") The nature of Saturn is to reject and exclude. Cold condenses, dryness separates

Jupiter, hot/warm and moist (think greater benefic, and why.) Heat expands and moisture unifies. The nature of Jupiter is to confirm, and stabalize.

Mars, excessively hot and dry. Heat expands, dryness separates. The nature of Mars is to sever and to separate.

Sun, hot and dry, benefic by aspect, malefic by conjunction. The nature of the Sun is to select.

Venus, warm and moist. Heat expands, moisture unifies. The nature of Venues is to reconcile and unify.

Mercury, alone hot and dry, but takes on the nature of the planets he aspects. The nature of Mercury is to contest and destabalize.

Moon, cold and moist. Cold condenses, moisture unifies. The nature of the Moon is to gather and include. This includes gathering the things of the world unto us.
__________________
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." ~Mark Twain
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to tsmall For This Useful Post:
Bunraku (12-02-2016), david starling (12-01-2016)
  #87  
Unread 12-01-2016, 01:07 AM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 20,698
Smile Re: Uranus is a malefic

Thanks, tsmall, great explanation!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to david starling For This Useful Post:
tsmall (12-01-2016)
  #88  
Unread 12-01-2016, 03:49 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,528
Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Almost. What is missing is that the gods and mythology of the Greeks was really just a reinforcement of astrological themes, a way of cementing them in the lives of the Hellenists, and then later the Romans. It's a case of chicken and egg.

And there is no single traditional astrologer I know (and the number of them is growing daily) who disagree with the idea that there are both postive and negative expressions of these planets. After, the entire cosmos is set to neutral. It's the human component that manifests the energy.
If you look at chronology in the history of astrology (Nicholas Campion's 2 volume histories, to take but one source,) we first get:

1, Sumerians identify planets as gods.

2. Subsequent Mesopotamian civilizations, like the Babylonians (Chaldeans, &c) adopt and adapt a lot of the Sumerians' pantheism, and further develop ephemerides and predictions based upon planetary motion. To them, the planets are either gods or manifestations of gods in the form of omens. (See Francesca Rochberg, Erica Reiner.)

3. Anciently, the Greeks did not seem to have a well-developed mythology until they adopted and adapted a lot from the Mesopotamians. (Cf. the Oxford Classical Dictionary.) With this mythology came a lot of the Mesopotamian lore about the planetary gods. (Cf. the myth of Venus and Adonis.)

4. The Greeks had a fair bit of star lore prior to the introduction of Babylonian astrology ca. 300 BCE, much of it in the form of a stellar calendar useful for phenology for agriculture and Mediterranean shipping. (Cf. Herodotus, Aratus, the scholarship of Daryn Lehoux.)

The Greeks had no astrology prior to ca. 300 BC, even though they previously had a well-developed pantheon and set of religious beliefs and practices. Cf. not only the works of Homer and Herodotus, but archaeological evidence from temples and textual evidence from early Greek authors.

5. The Greeks made other contributions to astrology, once it was up and running, notably in spherical geometry. Aristotle's proto-science was in vogue in the 4th century BCE. Ptolemy's signal contribution was to attempt to strip out the mythology and explain astrology through Hellenistic proto-science.

Mythology of planetary gods predated astrology-- by a long shot. These meanings were established long before Hellenistic astrologers decided to clean up astrology and try to systematize it.

I decided to learn some traditional astrology by studying the Hellenistic texts, specifically because of my interest in the historical origins of astrology. Much of this material is very much into a bad malefic/good benefic mode. See, for example, Ptolemy on people with my configuration of Saturn opposite Mars in the 12th and 6th houses. Valens isn't much better. See his opening remarks on the signs of Saturn-ruled Capricorn and Aquarius.

Today it is popular to say that the classical astrologers were only being metaphorical, but this certainly is not how they described themselves.

Talk about putting a happy face on a pile of nastiness!

I have many more academic references on the above chronology, which I can cite at length if anyone is interested.
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.

Last edited by waybread; 12-01-2016 at 03:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Unread 12-01-2016, 04:00 AM
waybread's Avatar
waybread waybread is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A class M planet near you
Posts: 14,528
Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

tsmall, how does Mars get too close to the sun? It is further away from the sun than Mercury, Venus, and the earth. This was something that Ptolemy had worked out, hence his scheme of sign rulership.

I suspect that the Greek identification of Mars with excessive heat and dryness comes from its apparent flame colour. Before this planet picked up its astrological associations and Babylonian mythological associations, the Greeks simply called it, Pyroeis, or "firey one."
__________________
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Unread 12-01-2016, 05:05 AM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 20,698
Smile Re: Hi, I am a Taurus

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
If you look at chronology in the history of astrology (Nicholas Campion's 2 volume histories, to take but one source,) we first get:

1, Sumerians identify planets as gods.

2. Subsequent Mesopotamian civilizations, like the Babylonians (Chaldeans, &c) adopt and adapt a lot of the Sumerians' pantheism, and further develop ephemerides and predictions based upon planetary motion. To them, the planets are either gods or manifestations of gods in the form of omens. (See Francesca Rochberg, Erica Reiner.)

3. Anciently, the Greeks did not seem to have a well-developed mythology until they adopted and adapted a lot from the Mesopotamians. (Cf. the Oxford Classical Dictionary.) With this mythology came a lot of the Mesopotamian lore about the planetary gods. (Cf. the myth of Venus and Adonis.)

4. The Greeks had a fair bit of star lore prior to the introduction of Babylonian astrology ca. 300 BCE, much of it in the form of a stellar calendar useful for phenology for agriculture and Mediterranean shipping. (Cf. Herodotus, Aratus, the scholarship of Daryn Lehoux.)

The Greeks had no astrology prior to ca. 300 BC, even though they previously had a well-developed pantheon and set of religious beliefs and practices. Cf. not only the works of Homer and Herodotus, but archaeological evidence from temples and textual evidence from early Greek authors.

5. The Greeks made other contributions to astrology, once it was up and running, notably in spherical geometry. Aristotle's proto-science was in vogue in the 4th century BCE. Ptolemy's signal contribution was to attempt to strip out the mythology and explain astrology through Hellenistic proto-science.

Mythology of planetary gods predated astrology-- by a long shot. These meanings were established long before Hellenistic astrologers decided to clean up astrology and try to systematize it.

I decided to learn some traditional astrology by studying the Hellenistic texts, specifically because of my interest in the historical origins of astrology. Much of this material is very much into a bad malefic/good benefic mode. See, for example, Ptolemy on people with my configuration of Saturn opposite Mars in the 12th and 6th houses. Valens isn't much better. See his opening remarks on the signs of Saturn-ruled Capricorn and Aquarius.

Today it is popular to say that the classical astrologers were only being metaphorical, but this certainly is not how they described themselves.

Talk about putting a happy face on a pile of nastiness!

I have many more academic references on the above chronology, which I can cite at length if anyone is interested.
I see a clear line running from Ancient-Sumeria/Babylonia through Ancient-Egypt to Ancient-Greece: Apollo, "most Greek of the gods" from Horus; and Hades, one of the three gods with "Earthly Authority" from Osirus. The Babylonians were also attuned to Egypt--their constellations for Leo and Scorpio both had connections to the Nile. The Egyptians borrowed heavily from Ancient-Sumeria to begin with, so these three cultures (Babylonians included as a continuation of Sumeria) were intertwined when it came to religious beliefs. The Greeks were the synthesizers and clarifiers, and [IMO] the most useful for Astrology when it comes to symbolism and classification. I also think ancient Astrologers should have gone more with the Greek versions of the deities than the Roman, although not entirely--Saturn, for example. It would be confusing using the Greek "Ares" for Mars, ruling Aries!

Last edited by david starling; 12-01-2016 at 07:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
malefic, uranus

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 07:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.