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  #351  
Unread 04-24-2012, 05:14 PM
sandstone sandstone is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

i think it's helpful to use real examples.. some might say they don't count as they are in some way out of the normal realm of most people, but if astrology is going to be like a springboard for getting at the whole chart, as opposed to something static that has fixed definitions for everything then one has to include these examples as well..

here are a couple of charts of well known people with 12th house placements that seem to be especially relevant as the planet in the 12th is also ruler of the 1st. sigmund freud and george clooney
on some level both these men have led very productive lives that have captured the attention of many. i suppose one could say marriage is a form of incarceration for a person with libra on the 12th house cusp which might be true for the person.. the interpretation has to meet up with the person and be based off how the person experiences life. how much of it is subjective as opposed to something that has objectively happened in some fatalistic manner that some of the antiquated ideas of the 12th have emphasized for this house?

one can say what they want about the various meanings offered on the 12th house.. i think the fact is there are a lot of people with 12th house placements that do just fine and better in life.. here is another idea to consider.. if astrology has anything to do with spirituality it can't be a static ideology at the same time. perhaps not everyone will go along with this but it's how i see it. it is helpful to have rules for understanding astrology better, but it's also helpful to not be chained to these rules in a static manner whereby one creates there own type of prison.. astrology is like a springboard for jumping off as opposed to something static that never lets you jump to your own independent conclusion..

it comes down to observation.. everything in astrology comes down to this. either something has merit and works, or it doesn't for you.. what works for others might not work for you, but this doesn't mean it doesn't work.. it just means you have to connect the dots in your own way and come to your own conclusions based off observation.. good luck!

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  #352  
Unread 04-24-2012, 05:26 PM
Anachiel Anachiel is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

Freud is not a good 12th candidate as his Venus, 12th ruler, is mutual reception with Mars. So, it nullifies the effects.

George's chart, the 12th ruler is in it's own sign and trine the ruler of the 7th. Also, his 12th ruler also rules his 11th further nullifying anything. Jupiter in the 12th ruling his ASC; he has a lot of unseen help, secret helpers.

Like I said, the 12th isn't the only gig going but, just becuase you have one (a 12th house) and aren't experiencing that doesn't mean the 12th lost it's meaning. It just means maybe you should be grateful.

Also, not all planets act the same in the same houses.

It is hard to find 12th house (natal) examples because if they really are ACTIVE 12th, you won't see them...hello, they are unseen. We don't see or hear about them often. Nelson Mandela would probably be a good one but, no one knows when (time) he was born. Same with Benazir Butto. tsk tsk.
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  #353  
Unread 04-24-2012, 05:31 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

astrology is an interpretative process whereby a person has to figure it out on there own terms for themselves.. there are many house systems and no 2 astrologers will agree on the one to use.. it is the same with so much of astrology.. rules are fine, but ultimately one has to go on their own observation based on the set of tools they want to use to understand astrology better..
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  #354  
Unread 04-24-2012, 05:48 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Check Freud's birth data. He did not have a planet in the 12th. He had 8 Scopio rising. The birth data giving this placement is Rodden AA according to Astrodatabank. And I had the same data from other sources.

I don't know what aspect of Freud's life you refer to as "12th House". What is outstanding about Freud's chart is the superlative dominance of Mars.....

His 12th is ruled by Venus, detrimented and cadent, in 9 degree cross-sign conjunction with Pluto. Venus and Mars are in mutual reception.
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  #355  
Unread 04-24-2012, 06:08 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

different house systems will give you a different read.. i am glad we are talking specifics though.. i think frued was completely caught up in sexuality which aside from the obvious 8th house connection also has something to do with mars as i understand astrology.. i suppose one could say mars was the handle planet to the rest of his chart and that would be true too.. the mutual reception between venus in the 6th and mars in the 12th is especially interesting here as the 6th house gets included in any overall consideration of his chart as well.. fwiw- i am mostly a fan of whole-sign houses..
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  #356  
Unread 04-24-2012, 06:25 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Gotcha. I use Placidus. But yes, Mars is the key to his chart.....

1. Handle of a Bucket pattern, with a very strong right-hand inclination.
2. Lord of the Horoscope, with Scorpio rising immediately cluing us to "sexual issues" as prominent forces in the life.
3. Mars retrograde, implying sexual inversion (coupled with the 6th house Venus/Pluto thing and the mutual reception (double-detriment); also implying that the exploratory nature of the preeminent Mars will be turned inward, exploring the self. His exploration of the human mind through others was in reality the exploration of his own troubling sexual nature.
4. Mars solitaire East.
5. Moon and Saturn in 8th. Lord of 8th, Mercury, conjunct Uranus. Moon in Gemini there implying ambiguous and conflicting feelings regarding mother with sexual overtones (his Oedipus Complex, one of the cornerstones of his sexually dominated psychology).
6. The Venus/Pluto conjunction, held by the Sixth of "readjustment", with Venus ruling the 12th (Placidus) also carries very powerful sexual issues into the 12th.
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  #357  
Unread 04-24-2012, 06:26 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

i have 2 different times for benazir bhutto.. i can't remember the origins for the data, but i would have gotten it back when she was alive and involved in pakistani politics which i followed.. one of the times is 430pm - june 21 1953 karachi pakistan, with the other time 759pm.. i think the 759pm time was the one that was given as more correct, but unfortunately i can't remember and don't have notes to go with these charts.. it is interesting bringing her up as she is born in 53 as part of the saturn/neptune generation.. to me saturn/neptune together will always have shades of the 12th house given the strong presence of neptune mixed with such an important consideration to any chart - saturn.. her natal moon is close to these 2 planets as well using either time.. to me it is interesting as i think much of the discussion on the 12th house seems to cross over into a discussion on neptune regardless whether folks want to consider this planet and its influence or not...

i agree mandela would be a great chart to look at and so far as i know nothing other then the day for him is available.. 9 degree orb with of saturn to neptune conjunction with mercury conjunct saturn on the day of his birth. 1917 to 1953 is one saturn/neptune cycle back to conjunction..
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  #358  
Unread 04-24-2012, 06:30 PM
MaeMae MaeMae is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

400 posts and it's still gray haze.
Calling all Pisceans and 12th housers to add to the discombobulated fray...
My mom had a great phrase about Pisces (oops, caveat here - I DO believe that 12th house is Neptune dream~sleep~fantasy house) ~
"they don't know their @ss from a hole in the ground".
iow ~ always looking for something they'll never find.

Last edited by MaeMae; 04-24-2012 at 06:35 PM.
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  #359  
Unread 04-24-2012, 06:32 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by MaeMae View Post
400 posts and it's still gray haze....

ROFLMAO. Right!?!
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  #360  
Unread 04-24-2012, 10:42 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Some good advice Anachiel - thanks!
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Originally Posted by Anachiel View Post
Personally, I think unless you have an ACTIVE 12th house, not a bunch of planets in the 12th or some other lame natal event but, an ACTIVE 12th house, then none of us are really qualified to speak about the "real world" or how positive we've "handled" it. It's moot.

Now, you want to know the 12th house? Then go to where the 12th house is and meet the people that LIVE in the 12th house; prisons, institutions, secluded lonely places, places where large animals roam (think elephants and, more locally, horses which by the way are all endangered and hunted and probably live in fear if I may anthopomorphize for a moment). Of course, most people don't won't or can't do this so, comments about it are really, at best, trivialized and uninformed.


What was true THEN is the same NOW. Nothing has changed except the scenery (and the fact that we can kill more people, animals and things, faster, and more efficiently than back in the days of camels as one poster put it.) BUT, people are still the same, same needs, weakness, dreams and desires. Humans have evolved.....I'm sorry, I ran out thoughts on that. Where have they evolved besides tools? And who would recognize an evolved person it if it landed in front of them?


And, AGAIN, the 12th house is NOT the only house in/out there. However, stripping it of it's essential (albeit, traditional) meaning by those who can sit, free and relatively well-heeled and philosophise about it does nothing for those who really MAY have an ACTIVE 12th house and need more than fluff to keep them safe or free. If you are free and well-heeled it is safe to say you have no idea, really, about the 12th.


Perhaps my hang-up while we are hanging out in the 12th is that I even care what people think about the 12th. Why should I? I'm not here to convince or convert. But, it makes for almost non-existant conversation if we cannot evaluate our own perspectives through discussion.


The key word is perspective, however. The 12th IS the 12th regardless what people
think about it. One really has to be objective to see what is going on rather than just blaming astrology or the ancients for being wrong, or primitive or out-of-date. Perhaps it's just plain ol' denial.

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  #361  
Unread 04-24-2012, 11:01 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

jupiter, do you consider an "active" 12th house by it's ruler? more important than the residents doing the thinking and feeling.
Say Cap is on 12th and saturn's in 9th and what we have here is an excellent researcher, academic or philosopher.
no number of planets in 12th will support itself without help that way. the lost ones, floundering.
when in doubt, harness rulerships over placements.
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  #362  
Unread 04-24-2012, 11:08 PM
Anachiel Anachiel is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by MaeMae View Post
jupiter, do you consider an "active" 12th house by it's ruler? more important than the residents doing the thinking and feeling.
Say Cap is on 12th and saturn's in 9th and what we have here is an excellent researcher, academic or philosopher.
no number of planets in 12th will support itself without help that way. the lost ones, floundering.
when in doubt, harness rulerships over placements.

Hijacking for a sec....well, really just a drive by....
The 12th will not point to career....by itself.....or, maybe, anytime. How did we go from the 12th haze to the career thing? It has nothing to do with career. Gah! Don't throw that hot mess out there.
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  #363  
Unread 04-25-2012, 12:04 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaeMae View Post
jupiter, do you consider an "active" 12th house by it's ruler? more important than the residents doing the thinking and feeling.
Say Cap is on 12th and saturn's in 9th and what we have here is an excellent researcher, academic or philosopher.
no number of planets in 12th will support itself without help that way. the lost ones, floundering.
when in doubt, harness rulerships over placements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anachiel View Post
Hijacking for a sec....well, really just a drive by....
The 12th will not point to career....by itself.....or, maybe, anytime. How did we go from the 12th haze to the career thing? It has nothing to do with career. Gah! Don't throw that hot mess out there.
Another drive-by shooting in the haze... Siriusly though MaeMae you raise a good point - and so does Anachiel obviously.

I use whole sign btw so fwiw then Cap 12th MUST mean Aquarius 1st.


Aquarius Ascendant then is influenced by helpful trine aspect from strong Libra Saturn
Exalted in 9th...

so far none of this is necessarily linked to career...

Venus disposits Libra Saturn so Venus house/sign location important. In this case, IF Venus in 10th THEN 9th house Libra Saturn links to career

MaeMae IF you do NOT use whole sign houses then we need a natal chart for complete clarity regarding this question BUT can we find clarity in the hazy 12th?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
1. The good or bad signified by a house emanates from the ruler of the house.
This is the basic rule. The ruler of the house is giver of the material of the house.

Zoller gives the example of his own chart where he has Combusted Mercury in 11th, ruler of 4th. He comments that this kind of placement brings adversity to ones home and dwellings.

5. Examine the planets which most closely aspects the Ascendant. These planets add to the whole Primary Motivation thing.

Planets aspecting the Ascendant represent powers the native can use in the world.

6. The Ruler of the Ascendant by its house position tells you where (what area of life) the native will seek to realize his/her Primary Motivation.

Look also at all 5 dignity rulers in the place of the ASC. The Almuten and Exalted ruler are almost as significant as the domicile ruler (sometimes even more).

The Ruler of the Ascendant (as well as the other rulers) by its nature and zodiacal state shows the methods the native will use and the success or failure of the drive.

The primary motivation is great deal of what we unconsciously and often consciously seek for. Once that motivation is broken or someone interrupt it, we seek to fix that in the every possible way we can do that.

I will continue with the tips in my next post.
i.e. For your example MaeMae, Libra Saturn is ruler of the Aquarius Ascendant which also shows the Primary Motivation of this person
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  #364  
Unread 04-25-2012, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anachiel View Post
Hijacking for a sec....well, really just a drive by....
The 12th will not point to career....by itself.....or, maybe, anytime. How did we go from the 12th haze to the career thing? It has nothing to do with career. Gah! Don't throw that hot mess out there.
no hot mess. saturn ruler of 12th and placed in 9th with planets in 12th would lend itself to serious research and study of non-material world ~ giving the planets within, a purpose for study.
there are other " institutions " than psych wards and jails and crack houses.
and what the f*** do you care if i muddy it? you guys are already knee deep in muck.
as if.....
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  #365  
Unread 04-25-2012, 12:46 AM
Anachiel Anachiel is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

You're making me laugh, MaeMae.

Well hell! Why not a cemetary then? Undertaker fits perfectly with what you are saying.
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  #366  
Unread 04-25-2012, 01:21 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

you're stretching it, Anachiel...
i used what i thought was a clear example of structured academia where 12th house planets might express themselves best because of house rulership.
academia is as "other worldly" as you can get.

which many of you have proven, i might add....

(i'll check in again at post 800 to see if you guys have made any progress in your 12th house strides of evolved ego~lessness.
right now, your thought boxes seem as tiny as any jail cell i've ever seen...
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  #367  
Unread 04-25-2012, 04:12 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaeMae View Post
no hot mess. saturn ruler of 12th and placed in 9th with planets in 12th would lend itself to serious research and study of non-material world ~ giving the planets within, a purpose for study.
there are other " institutions " than psych wards and jails and crack houses.
and what the f*** do you care if i muddy it? you guys are already knee deep in muck.
as if.....

I support MaeMae. My empty 12th house Leo cusp, ruler Sun is in 3rd house conjunct Mercury and Saturn as part of the Scorpio Stellium; Sun sextile AC Virgo, while Mars is the traditional ruler of Scorpio including Pluto, Saturn, Sun, Mercury and Mars exalts in Capricorn Moon, Conjunct Libra Venus.

I really do think it affected my career as a nurse working in hospital. By the way, some people with planets physically in the 12th house at time using this 12th house's energy by actually working in charity, institution and hospital. Need to look at the whole chart.

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  #368  
Unread 04-25-2012, 07:40 AM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaeMae View Post
you're stretching it, Anachiel...
i used what i thought was a clear example of structured academia where 12th house planets might express themselves best because of house rulership.
academia is as "other worldly" as you can get.

which many of you have proven, i might add....

(i'll check in again at post 800 to see if you guys have made any progress in your 12th house strides of evolved ego~lessness.
right now, your thought boxes seem as tiny as any jail cell i've ever seen...

I just have to say I laughed at this for a good five minutes. It's true, after so many posts no one has agreed upon (or at least found a level of comprimise or reasoning) on issues regarding the 12th house. Perhaps no one ever will, I mean it's the house of the unseen right?

The 12th house wants to remain a secret and will remain to do so....no? I hope everyone can find a middle-ground sooner, rather than later. That way everyone can leave the poor 12th house alone.
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Unread 04-25-2012, 03:02 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anachiel View Post
Personally, I think unless you have an ACTIVE 12th house, not a bunch of planets in the 12th or some other lame natal event but, an ACTIVE 12th house, then none of us are really qualified to speak about the "real world" or how positive we've "handled" it. It's moot.

Now, you want to know the 12th house? Then go to where the 12th house is and meet the people that LIVE in the 12th house; prisons, institutions, secluded lonely places, places where large animals roam (think elephants and, more locally, horses which by the way are all endangered and hunted and probably live in fear if I may anthopomorphize for a moment). Of course, most people don't won't or can't do this so, comments about it are really, at best, trivialized and uninformed.

What was true THEN is the same NOW. Nothing has changed except the scenery (and the fact that we can kill more people, animals and things, faster, and more efficiently than back in the days of camels as one poster put it.) BUT, people are still the same, same needs, weakness, dreams and desires. Humans have evolved.....I'm sorry, I ran out thoughts on that. Where have they evolved besides tools? And who would recognize an evolved person it if it landed in front of them?

And, AGAIN, the 12th house is NOT the only house in/out there. However, stripping it of it's essential (albeit, traditional) meaning by those who can sit, free and relatively well-heeled and philosophise about it does nothing for those who really MAY have an ACTIVE 12th house and need more than fluff to keep them safe or free. If you are free and well-heeled it is safe to say you have no idea, really, about the 12th.

Perhaps my hang-up while we are hanging out in the 12th is that I even care what people think about the 12th. Why should I? I'm not here to convince or convert. But, it makes for almost non-existant conversation if we cannot evaluate our own perspectives through discussion.

The key word is perspective, however. The 12th IS the 12th regardless what people think about it. One really has to be objective to see what is going on rather than just blaming astrology or the ancients for being wrong, or primitive or out-of-date. Perhaps it's just plain ol' denial.

"Things are tough all over, cupcake. It rains on the just and the unjust alike."
-Sally, from Watchmen

Following your thought, we're all incapable of doing a chart interpretation for a client who has an "active" 12th house unless we have our own "active" 12th house. I think the exploration of matters of the 12th (or any other house) and how it plays out in real life is worth consideration, if it can help lift some of the fog. Otherwise, since I can't imagine what it feels like to be permanently locked up, I guess I'll need to visit the Phoenix zoo so I can do natal charts for elephants and try to share their pain.
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Unread 04-25-2012, 03:24 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

for those with 12th House planets jjust keep sending the love! :- ) and help them release.
sure we can all list suffering. it likes the chant of a mob. and 50 people said 'crucify him'/thank you!
so what is it that' you' do to alleviate the 12th h suffering you percieve.how do you bring the light in that is the hard part.

just as an aside I sent a letter to World Wildlife Fund to complain about the King of Spain shooting and killing elephants. They are looking into it.
This was clearly one of my more lucid moments between drugs/drink/alcohol/dodging the bullets/

like the ocean - it seems some people think they can dump anything in the 12th House.
some placements are cool and trendy and some are not.
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  #371  
Unread 04-25-2012, 03:55 PM
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Re: The Twelfth House

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Originally Posted by Judy_AzVirgo View Post
Rapt - There does seem to be a lot of that going around in many threads on this website, with people quoting ancient sources that may or may not be relevant to the experiences of people in today's world. I think your description of the 12th house is very clear and direct. Carris makes some excellent points, as well. I agree that suffering/sorrow and self-undoing are relics of bygone eras (camels, anyone?), and that the matters of the house can be far more positive for those who stop fearing it and start living it. It needn't be a "weak" house!

All astrologers have probably known someone who has been burdened in some way by the 12th house, through imprisonment, long-term hospitalization, and other negative manifestations. These types of experiences can be aggravated by aspect, transit, or other means, rather than simply because planet(s) occupy the 12th house. I would hope we've all seen people who handle the house's energy in more positive ways, as you do.
Thanks Judy

Yes those interpretations no longer apply. I don't think they were accurate in the first place. Those astrologers did no proper research before propounding their theories and postulations. And they obviously had a very low rate of accuracy of their predictions - or why would they keep coming up with more and more convoluted and arbitrary methods of predictions. Besides that, how do we know if they really got accurate birth times - since clocks were few and far between - and most of the populace were illiterate - and all calculations had to be done by hand. What the astrologer considered unfortunate might have actually been very fortunate for the person himself - its a matter of perspective. Besides, is there any statistical research at all that shows people with a prominent 12th are imprisoned /incarcerated /hospitalized or any of the other interpretations?

On the contrary, Gauquelin found planets in 12th to be very influential in determining a person's career, vocation, psychology. I posted a quote on this thread which showed that the chaldeans considered planets rising in the 12th to be very influential on a person's fate - jupiter, venus and moon rising in the 12th indicated a very fortunate life. Many presidents, including president Obama (jupiter and saturn in 12th) have prominent 12th houses.

And: The world is no where near the same. Our culture, values, thinking have changed completely from then. For example - being born out of wedlock is no longer a problem or the scandal it used to be. Neither is getting a divorce or being homosexual. There are so many professions which are available now - that no one needs to feel trapped into anything. I read somewhere that a person with strong uranus used to be considered weird and unfortunate - but now is considered very fortunate because it indicates talent and career in the latest high technology - and now there are so many colleges that can teach this technology - whereas earlier the poor native would have suffered from the lack of knowledge. In todays world, only very dogmatic, conservative, regressive, repressive, closed societies would consider anything to be unfortunate.

I believe in this:
"Compassion comes when you accept that each person has taken a different spiritual path to your own, and people spiritually choose what they wish to experience for an incarnational reason, you suspend all judgment. From this viewpoint, you understand what is happening, because a person’s beliefs, behaviour, and actions are the incarnational conditions they chose to experience during their lifetime. You understand that every soul volunteers to participate in every event or situation in their personal lives."

I also believe in this quote from Dolores Cannon: "There is no evil, no devil, no hell. There are only lessons to be learnt. Earth is only a school that we souls decide to attend. Each lifetime is a class with many lessons to be learned. You cannot go on to the next class until you have learned the lessons of this one. This as a school where you cannot skip a grade but you can certainly have to repeat a grade until you get it right – no matter how many lifetimes it takes. If you didn’t get it right this time around, then you will be presented with the SAME problems and lessons until you get it."

If we are here to learn, then everything, all the houses and planets are here to teach us. How can anything really be unfortunate in the long run?

Last edited by Carris; 04-25-2012 at 04:29 PM.
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  #372  
Unread 04-25-2012, 04:39 PM
MaeMae MaeMae is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

i can't post a chart on phone, but here is an example some of you might appreciate. if anyone is willing to post this chart ~ advanced thanks ~ it might be interesting in this discussion.
JS
4-23-65
3:45 am
santa monica, ca

this person had been a drug addict, alcoholic & dealer most of his life. as a school kid, he was dx'd with ADHD and spent K-8 in the same special needs class with the same teacher in L.A. Unified School District. His father committed suicide when he was 13 years old.
he has spent 3 separate terms in prison, a total of 16 years combined.
for past 5 years, he has been well employed, is buying his home and has found the institution of "hard work" with a very large construction firm, to be quite satisfactory. he has a 401k, savings and promotion opportunities.
he has not been involved in criminal activity since his last release from prison, other than he still "chips" at his drug of choice.
he will tell you that his criminal convictions came because he was protecting others and took the rap himself.
~ anyway ~ it would be interesting to see practical application of this discussion...

Last edited by MaeMae; 04-25-2012 at 04:48 PM.
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  #373  
Unread 04-25-2012, 04:55 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy_AzVirgo View Post
Following your thought, we're all incapable of doing a chart interpretation for a client who has an "active" 12th house unless we have our own "active" 12th house. I think the exploration of matters of the 12th (or any other house) and how it plays out in real life is worth consideration, if it can help lift some of the fog. Otherwise, since I can't imagine what it feels like to be permanently locked up, I guess I'll need to visit the Phoenix zoo so I can do natal charts for elephants and try to share their pain.
Clearly you have some sympathy for elephants in Phoenix zoo - however, perhaps you would like to consider a visit to the "Death Row" area of a penitentiary that houses inmates condemned to death and chat with some humans in order to assist "the exploration of matters of the 12th (or any other house) and how it plays out in real life"

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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 04-25-2012 at 04:58 PM.
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  #374  
Unread 04-25-2012, 05:21 PM
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poyi poyi is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaeMae View Post
i can't post a chart on phone, but here is an example some of you might appreciate. if anyone is willing to post this chart ~ advanced thanks ~ it might be interesting in this discussion.
JS
4-23-65
3:45 am
santa monica, ca

this person had been a drug addict, alcoholic & dealer most of his life. as a school kid, he was dx'd with ADHD and spent K-8 in the same special needs class with the same teacher in L.A. Unified School District. His father committed suicide when he was 13 years old.
he has spent 3 separate terms in prison, a total of 16 years combined.
for past 5 years, he has been well employed, is buying his home and has found the institution of "hard work" with a very large construction firm, to be quite satisfactory. he has a 401k, savings and promotion opportunities.
he has not been involved in criminal activity since his last release from prison, other than he still "chips" at his drug of choice.
he will tell you that his criminal convictions came because he was protecting others and took the rap himself.
~ anyway ~ it would be interesting to see practical application of this discussion...

Here is your chart

astro_2gw_18_js.58778.850.jpg

12th house Pisces, traditional ruler is Jupiter and modern ruler is Neptune. Jupiter 0 Gemini 12 in detriment 2nd house, Neptune Rx conjunct Pluto Rx and Uranus Rx both malefic in 6th house, work and co-worker/health in the sign of health and service to others or provide service to other.

Saturn opposite Pluto Rx at 0 approaching aspect exact degree. Saturn opposite Uranus Rx and Mars Rx in Virgo.

In term of addiction, Neptune trine Saturn, Quintile Mars Rx, biQuintile Mercury.Quintile and biQuintile usually means native's Special Talent...in his case as addiction....very interesting.

Did he sell drugs in the past?That was the reason he got into jail?

Mercury inconjunct Uranus Rx and Pluto Rx, Mercury rules 6th house but Mars ruled Mercury and 3rd house where Rahu/NN is located obsession of the 3rd house?

You said :"he will tell you that his criminal convictions came because he was protecting others and took the rap himself."

Gemini Jupiter 2nd square Virgo Mars approaching aspect, perfected at the age of 9.Capricorn Moon detriment, Sesquisquare Uranus Rx, Pluto Rx (exact degree), and NN
Capricorn Moon semi-square Saturn in 12th (exact degree)

Well.... I am not too good at looking at the whole chart. So far these are what I see.
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“I believe there is something of the divine mystery in everything that exists. We can see it sparkle in a sunflower or a poppy. We sense more of the unfathomable mystery in a butterfly that flutters from a twig--or in a goldfish swimming in a bowl. But we are closest to God in our own soul. Only there can we become one with the greatest mystery of life. In truth, at very rare moments we can experience that we ourselves are that divine mystery.” --Jostein Gaarder, Sophie's World

Last edited by poyi; 04-25-2012 at 06:04 PM.
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  #375  
Unread 04-25-2012, 05:32 PM
sandstone sandstone is offline
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Re: The Twelfth House

greybeard,

thanks for the civil exchange on sigmund freuds chart.. i like the fact we can converse using a different house system and arrive at similar conclusions regardless.. this is one of the many reasons i like to see chart data given, if for no other reason it gives us a chance to process the info in our own manner of interpretation.

maemae,

i haven't figured out how to post charts, but your example sounds like an interesting one.

here is a chart for someone who i think qualifies for discussion on this thread... he is born in 1917 - the year of the saturn/neptune conjunction that i was mentioning on my last few posts.. this conjunction is high up near the midheaven, while moon in virgo in the 12th house by whole-sign 11th by placidus rules the midheaven and the 10th house saturn.. mercury rules the moon from the 8th in conjunction to jupiter, while moon applies directly to mars which is also in the 8th.. a fair amount of 8th house focus - 3 by whole-sign, 5 by placidus.. many things could be said about this chart, but i will quote from astrodatabank- a learning tool that hopefully many here will find a useful tool to work with..

"Plagued by constant illness and forever scarred in his boyhood by an absentee father and a cold, remote mother, he emerged as a rogue who was by turns funny, raunchy and charming. His biographers paint a picture of a dysfunctional family...."
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Kennedy,_John_F.
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