Poll: Which House System Format do you prefer?

Which House System Format do you prefer?

  • Whole Sign

    Votes: 5 10.4%
  • Equal House

    Votes: 8 16.7%
  • Quadrant (Placidus;Regiomantus;Koch;Porphyry;Campanella;Alcabitius)

    Votes: 27 56.3%
  • Multiple Formats

    Votes: 8 16.7%

  • Total voters
    48
  • Poll closed .

dr. farr

Well-known member
In this Poll please select the house system format you use most often:

-If you use Equal House, please check the relevant box

-If you use Whole Sign, please check the relevant box

-If you use Placidus, Koch, Regiomantus, Porphyry, Campanella or Alcabitius, please check the "quadrant" box

-If you use several different house systems according to the nature of the chart you are delineating, please check the "multiple formats" box.
 

AquariusT

Well-known member
I was taught Koch. But also Whole as a *sign* and to always take it into account and this seems to work just as well.

I don't use Placidus. I learned here at AW that Reg is the way to go for horary.

But I am finding that Whole seems to be more accurate for me lately and will continue to use it more in my Astrology.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Dr. Farr, I clicked on "quadrant" but actually I pretty much stick w/ Placidus unless its a high-latitude birth with skewed houses. Then I will try several different systems.
 
Equal house is by far the most accurate IMO

:whistling::biggrin::w00t:

http://www.solsticepoint.com/astrologersmemorial/hone.html
http://www.skyviewzone.com/birthinfoforms2/housesexplained.htm
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Z0nnE2IP7A4C&pg=PA167&dq=astrology+equal+house&as_brr=3&ei=i0iJS-PlGo3mygS89Nn8DQ&cd=2#v=onepage&q=astrology%20equal%20house&f=false

EQUAL HOUSES
“Another of the three most popular house systems is Equal houses which is just what its name implies. All the houses have the same degree on each cusp, and there are no interceptions. Equal house systems are especially useful for people born in the northernmost and southernmost latitudes, and this system is the most popular one in use outside of the United States.”
http://www.esotericapublications.com/art-eso-011.htm

Equal house system is the only system that is erected in the plane of the Earths orbit. The zodiac is erected in the plane of the Earths orbit around the Sun which comprises of a 360 degree circle that surrounds the Earth. The mid-heaven is often more, or less than ninety degrees (three signs) from the ascendant, therefore it is not often placed on the tenth house cusp, but marked where it appears in the mid-heaven according to the latitude and longitude of birth. The mid-heaven is taken as an important point; it is the point of self-mastery.
http://marianneohagan.com/house.htm


“The simplest approaches, the equal-house and whole-sign methods, merely require knowledge of the ascendant or ascending sign, and an equal division throughout the rest of the zodiac eliminates the need for any complicated calculations
Yet recent research into classical astrology has created a renewed interest in these simple techniques from a more scholarly perspective. The point of strength is that, regardless of the originating theory behind house division, in practice at least, classical astrologers tended to tie the houses to the signs, apparently concurring with Pelletier, who wrote in defence of the equal house method”
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/houprob4.html
 

Skillcoil

Well-known member
I prefer Placidus, because I've found it to be most accurate for myself and I think intercepted signs are important to take into consideration. After this thread, I've been looking into whole signs and checked my chart in this system. It changes, I like the way it looks but I feel as if maybe, a whole signs chart could be considered something to possibly develop into? I'm not sure, this is just a current thought I've been having about whole signs.
 

Phoenix Venus

Well-known member
I picked multiple but it is mostly between Placidus and Equal.

I like equal because it is balanced and seems to be the most accurate as far as which planets fall into which houses.

I like Placidus because i've noticed people strongly identify with the interpretation for their intercepted houses. In using placidus, I will give a <5 degree orb for planets falling into the next house.

In equal, I keep the planets in their houses regardless of the orb to next house.

It seems to work well this way for me.
 

Culpeper

Premium Member
I have been a student of astrology for a very long time now and tried a number of house systems: Placidus, Regiomantanus, Koch, Equal and Whole-sign. After I began using computer software, I could compare these systems quickly and found whole sign most reliable. I only use whole sign now. Also I have never found a reliable use for intercepted houses. Perhaps if you do modern psychological astrology, quadrant systems may be of some use, but in the real world no one has ever ask me a psychological question.
 

SagiCap

Well-known member
I've just voted for Quadrant because I've read Lilly used this to be quite honest. I have not tested theories of other houses and I am looking for comparisons. Lately, I'm very impressed with outcomes of horaries that have relied on whole sign system and I'll be exploring that. I'm just worried that I won't find back-up referencing to support me as I learn this. Also, I've often thought that intercepted houses tell a great deal about the story and you don't get this with whole, correct?
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
To my knowledge only Robert Hand has some back-up examples in horary using whole sign; however, the works of the first generation of the Arabic astrologers (prior to the 9th century) in developing Western horary, all used whole sign exclusively (as did the earliest Vedic prasna sastra authorities)-all that suddenly changed around the late 800's both in the West (when quadrant Alchabitius swept in) and in the East (when equal house swept in) Historically, up until just before Lilly, the Alchabitius house format was exclsuively used in Western horary astrology (by the Arabs and Europeans:Guido Bonatti was perahps most famous for his use of this system in mundane and horary) Lilly, inspired by Morin de VilleFranche on the Continent, introduced Regiomantus as a "improved" house system over the older Alchabitius system-I myself have never experimented with Alchabitius (even though this was the house system exclsuively used in the Ankara tradition which I largely follow in horary)

No, interceptions cannot occur either in equal house or in whole sign. For me this was one of the things that attracted my attention to whole sign-unlike many, to my perhaps limited mind I was never comfortable with interceptions and always considered them unnatural (this is my own opinion ONLY and I am not challeging those who consider intercepts important for astrological delineations)
 

fushiafairy

Well-known member
I learned with Equal House and used it for years. I then experimented with Placidus and Koch and decided on Koch. Now I am back to Placidus. The midheaven is suppose to be the middle of the sky, right? So it felt weird to me for it to be anywhere else in the chart.
 
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astro_novice

Well-known member
Olivia,

Sort of like the Whole Sign chart is who you would be if conditions were perfect and the quadrant chart is who you actually are in the less-than-ideal circumstances in which we live.
I cannot agree with you more on this point. I've always used Placidus only because that's the default in astro.com. But when Robert Hand read my chart and used Whole Sign, I was totally blown away. He was able to find all the explanations (that I had by using Placidus chart) using Whole Sign chart. Regardless, I'm still not convinced at all that Whole Sign chart is my "current" chart.

Because my chart has a stellium of 4 to 5 planets, and that I have a very late degree ascendant, I think it should be easier to pinpoint the choice of House. If I use whole sign, 9th House activities are truly who I am or was born to. I LOVE studies of everything so much, especially science/astrology/religion/anything that tells me more about universe. However, based on transits through Houses in both charts, I really think that Placidus explains things much better for my life events. For example,

1. Pluto transit through my 10th house (in Placidus) from about 1987 Nov to 1997 Dec, the timing is fairly correct in that I started a tremendous effort in studying sciences from my high school until my second Master's degree. This timing would not be correct for whole sign house system.

2. Uranus transit through my 2nd house (in Placidus) from about Feb 2004 to 2013/2014. My net worth is going UP & DOWN so much such that many times I gained or lost 10 years of my annual savings in a month. If I use whole sign, Uranus would be in my 3rd house. But in no way that my Uranus transit through my 2nd house is over.

3. And the last Saturn transit through my 8th house in Placidus (where I have the stellium) was simply horrendous. And the events involved were such a joint-finance 8th house matter, and it is simply unmistakable IMO.

4. I have Jupiter transit thru my 2nd house in Placidus right now, and it appears to be quite correct. Again, I just cannot explain it if I use whole sign 3rd house.


I kept trying to come up with some wacky theory to reconcile the two house systems, such as having the whole sign house to move 1 degree every year of a person's life. I almost thought that by that it would explain Solar Arc or Progression of Sun changing signs simultaneously, except that this movement of house division is in the exactly reverse direction of Solar Arc. Since my Sun is at about 15 degree, I didn't realize this initially.

Regardless, my stellium has grown & "moved" from 9th house whole sign into 8th house Placidus over the years. If simply judge by the amount of time that I spend every day, I AM a 8th house person now.

By the way, I have Pluto trine Mercury now, studying astrology crazily. Somehow astrology really works, although I'm not sure why.
 
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Kannon

Well-known member
astro_novice,

The answer to your house system dilemma is that there is none. Identifying the correct degree of your Asc matters more in determining where the houses are set than what house system to use.

The Placidus chart you posted here [Asc=25CAP39] taken at face value shows a person with a life thrust in relating, teamwork, possibly entertainment. This is seen in the interception of Aqua-Leo in the 1st-7th with Venus in Leo in 7th (see work of John Willner in The Rising Sign Problem). This life thrust should have shown up by now for you. If not, then the Asc needs to be adjusted to a different, but correct degree. Placidus gives the most information about the native when the Asc degree/minute is correct.

Based on what you say here, your correct Asc degree is probably earlier in Cap and gets rid of the 1st-7th interception, leaving an emphasis of planets in the 8th. Based on Willner's color-planet research, Uranus is co-ruler/sub-ruler of Cap and in mid-Libra, it is in your 9th.
 

astro_novice

Well-known member
Kannon,

I don't know which house system is "more correct", but I do know that my birth time should be exact possibly in less than 5 minute time, if not 1 minute time. And I have double checked with my Mom on this. Asians have a very long history with astrology, and we usually keep a good record of the birth time.

I took a look at other quadrant system. They may be okay too I guess. But I just cannot explain things if I choose the whole sign, which is a bit far from Placidus. But of course, it is likely that I just don't have enough knowledge to explain the whole sign and/or transits in the right way.
 

astro_novice

Well-known member
Just FYI.

I checked 5 people, myself included, whom I know intimately well, and that I have exact birth place/time to the minute, and compared all 14 different house systems. With the exception of Vehlow and whole sign house system (both have more similar house cusps), which seemed to me to be the inner original nature, I've compared all the other 12 choices.

I ended up with the following choice of house systems which seem to me to be more correct than other systems based on my knowledge of these people:
1. Placidus
2. Polich-Page (or topo-centric) which gave the same house cusps in all 5 people as in Placidus
3. Regiomontanus (preferred by William Lilly)
4. Porphyry
5. Campanus

Among the 5 choices, I have least confidence in Campanus, and then Porphyry. I can almost take them out with good confidence, because I can find at least 2 out of 5 people not conforming to my knowledge about them.

It appears to me that #1,#2,#3 are the best choices (for these 5 people). I was almost going to choose Regiomontanus as the best, but I found both pro & con examples for it.

So I'm going to go with all three choices.

And amazingly Koch was not conforming in at least 3 or 4 people. So I left it out.

The way that I've compared was by looking at the differences between charts, mainly how the planets were moved to a different adjacent house, and how the cusp of the (empty) house moved to a different sign (and thus has a different ruler). If the cusp of the house moved, but it was not empty, it may be a little hard to discern, due to other planetary energies.

Hope this helps.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Thanks for your researches (I myself used Placidus for 30+ years, before switching to whole sign in 1998-99) Your results are very intriguing!

One thing, which could have an effect on charts: we might know the exact birth time within 1 minute, but almost universally (since the 1800's) this time is stated in civil time (local standard time)-that is, in manmade time. But what was the time of birth as far as the Sun and Cosmos are concerned ?(this is called "local apparent time") Except for an option (apparently rarely ever used) in the Solar Fire chart erection programs, NO chart erection programs (including astro.com) correct (adjust) from standard civil time to Sun/Cosmos time.
Sun/Cosmos time varies throughout the year; often it is of neglible value: Sun/Cosmos time on some dates being only 1 or 2 minutes earlier or later than manmade (civil, standard) time. On other dates, however, the difference between Sun/Cosmos time and manmade (civil standard) time can be as much as 16 minutes earlier or 15 minutes later than the given civil time (civil time is the only time used on all birth certificates in all parts of the world) So, as far as mankind is concerned, when we have the exact civil, standard local birthtime that's all that counts-but in astrology? Isn't the time in astrology supposed to be connected with the Sun and the Cosmos? Or do manmade time conventions overrule the Sun and Cosmos even in astrological calculations and delineations??

Rectification of standard civil time to Sun/Cosmos time can easily be done by going to "Daily Sun Data" on the internet, looking up the relevant day of the year (the year itself doesn't matter, only th day of the year) and using the table provided to adjust the manmade birth time to the Sun/Cosmos time...Planet positions are not affected, but the ascendant and houses can be-and frequently are-affected sometimes to quite a noticeable degree.


(Obviously this is a very controversial subject; before I was banned from skyscript, I started thread there on this subject which had many interesting posts from many experts, but unfortunately no definite conclusion came of it, other than no chart programs adjust or correct from local standard to Sun/Cosmos time; those who are interested can access the thread on skyscript entitled "Local Apparent Time")
 
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astro_novice

Well-known member
I googled, but couldn't find the way to correct the local standard time to local apparent time which is what I guess you're suggesting. I would be in the opinion of using local apparent time, because the whole astrology is based on how the sky is appeared to the native.

If you can send me a pointer to correct that, I could try to go back to charts and re-examine again.

Obviously, many of the things that I threw out were simply caused by 1 planet or 1 house cusp, because most of the time different house systems will give you almost identical charts. But of course, sometimes the difference in the interpretation is quite big, and based on my personal knowledge, that is how I could throw out some of the systems.

I wish I have more accurate data to compare. Except the ones for my children which I know 100% sure to be 100% accurate, I can only take my Mom's words (and the recorded time was from hospital apparently).

The rest of ambiguities were certainly caused by planet positions within about 4 degree from the cusp of the house. Definitely, 16 minute difference would cause the chart to go either way. Even Koch was off by just that much.

Maybe this is the reason that we cannot agree on the house systems because the time used is just not correct. And sometimes it favors one rather than the other.

I do think that data from 5 people is not enough. If we do have accurate data & accurate charts, I think we should be able to at least narrow down the choices.

Topo-centric which is very close to Placidus was claimed to be based on empirical evidence by the authors. I would guess that the choice for house system should not be unresolvable.

Yeah, still posting at 1:13am, because I've got Uranus in 9th house, and Jupiter in 12th house (only for Regiomontanus). I swear that Jupiter in 11th is just not me, but the planet position is within less than 1 degree of the cusp of 12th. It almost could go either way.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Googling daily sun data will bring up the relevant site at the top of the google page; if you have difficulty in calculating or understanding the daily sun data table, please let me know.

Again, I think your interest and investigations in this matter are most commendable-keep up the good work!!
 

astro_novice

Well-known member
I found this link.

http://freepages.pavilion.net/users/aghelyar/sundat.htm

Is the sundial time the local apparent time?

So just as an example, if a person was born on Jul 1st at 9am (and let's assume that there is a Day light saving locally for the summer)

date minutes.seconds Slower/Faster Declination(not relevant)
Jul1 3.33 S 23.09

Because of local Day Light Saving, 9am needs to be adjusted to 10am, then the "astro" time should be 10:03 am and 33 seconds (because sundial is slower).

Actually, I don't need to adjust for day light saving because astro.com already adjust that for me. I should just enter 9:03 am and 33 seconds into astro.com.

By the way, is this data with respect to the standard time for longitude=-180 degree (or 180 degree)? My 5 examples spread across both East in Asia and West in America. Should I take the later date data (July 2nd in this example) if the person is born in America?

I could even linearly interpolate the two data points of adjustment by using the longitude.

Anyway, let me know whether the above is correct.

I will post the result based on this adjustment. In any case, these are all kind of fuzzy logic anyway, but I do think it should point us to the right direction with increasing number of chart samples.

And again, as I've commented earlier, I believe whole sign chart relates to the inner drive/original nature at birth (& last a lifetime too), but I think Placidus/etc. would relate to how things eventually "manifest" into the daily (external) life. And I based my conjecture from 2 charts that I've studied. It's like the progressed charts versus the transits I think.
 
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