How planets can bring name, fame and glory to you.

RayAustin: I just saw your response to me on this thread. I agree with you, I guess ; after reading what you wrote, it makes sense.

But I think something that I'm not wrong about is that the "level" of fame and eminence depends on factors outside the chart, such as gender, ethnicity, socioecomonics, etc. Fame is subjective; you could say being in the newspaper makes one famous, or being on television once, or being an acclaimed actor. That's all fame, isn't it?

RayAustin said:

Hi Skill, I spent quite a bit writing a response on my thoughts but didn't get to finish it, hopefully a partial reply is satiating:

The astrologer Robert Cross Smith (19th century astrologer) in A Manual of Astrology in his section "The Fortune of Rank" mentions that the superiors Saturn, Uranus, Mars, Jupiter and the Sun angular confers to public notoriety. However, he also mentions that if out of these planets Saturn, Uranus and Mars lie in the tenth to generally denote some sad catastrophe to finish the scheme of their nativity (155). So I looked at some assassinated people.

For example, Kennedy had Saturn in the tenth. Lincoln had Saturn in the tenth. Mussolini had Uranus in the tenth, Gandhi had Uranus conjunct the midheaven. Again however, this is subjective--how bad depends on how much the planets are afflicted themselves and afflicting the others, especially the luminaries; he mentions—and also mentions that if the planets are assissted then the placement is also not as bad. One should not assume (as they seem to here) this is mentioned as a guaranteed signature of ill-fate.

Another thing that may represent rise and fall in the nativity is if the tenth lord is in the twelfth since the twelfth house is declining and one of the most unfortunate houses; if the tenth lord is afflicted then they may most likely face disgrace or an unfortunate end to the career/reputation.

• Kennedy
  Kennedy had Saturn afflicted in Cancer in the tenth house, conjunct the midheaven in sextile with the Moon from the twelfth house. The lord of the 10th is in the 12th house. I don't see that this sextile is of much help to appease Saturn, as Saturn's dispositor Moon is weak and afflicted being in the 12th house in Virgo -- these two planets are also said to be "enemies"; of course there's reception here but I don't see it doing too much since the Moon is malignant from being in the twelfth house. Saturn is also sextiled by a Mercury/Jupiter/Mars conjunction in the eighth house; not a particularly fortunate connection with the agitated Mars (public enemies ruler). Mercury rules the 12th house of secret enemies, it seems like he had many enemies that wished his ruin.
  
  
• Gandhi
  Gandhi had Uranus conjunct the midheaven in Cancer, aspected by Mars in Scorpio by trine by 3°, and he was shot. Mars also opposes Pluto rx by only 0°44' in the eighth house, which makes this trine to Uranus very malignant; indicating a sudden violent death by piercing.
  Jupiter is conjunct Pluto. It seems like Jupiter being involved may indicate a public death (as above, Kennedy also had Jupiter involved, and was killed in public).

[ to be continued: will touch on Lincoln, Mussolini .. and also people that weren't assassinated but have similar placements ] ...


R.a.

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I thought this article's take on the 10th also being called the "house of downfalls" was interesting...and makes sense considering the sobering effect of saturn in general to most everything:
http://www.terrynazon.com/10th House.html

notable quote from article:

Skillcoil said:

I've noticed node conjunctions in some charts of famous people, it could be something to consider. For name, fame and glory, would the vertex be involved also?

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As all things in astrology something like that would have to be proven by observation .. I haven't heard of a notion like that before.

eternalautumn said:

RayAustin: I just saw your response to me on this thread. I agree with you, I guess ; after reading what you wrote, it makes sense.

But I think something that I'm not wrong about is that the "level" of fame and eminence depends on factors outside the chart, such as gender, ethnicity, socioecomonics, etc. Fame is subjective; you could say being in the newspaper makes one famous, or being on television once, or being an acclaimed actor. That's all fame, isn't it?

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Yes, Vettius Valens' technique seems to be based as an indicator of eminence and rank for which fame is a byproduct--in my use I don't equate eminence to fame however, this technique seems to be the most reliable indicator of fame; entertaining the idea that in American culture fame = eminence.

I agree with you to some extent. I think the level doesn't depend, but varies on factors; one I believe in is that the level would be modified by the eminence of the native's country, in one aspect the socioeconomic conditions of the country--a country with more opportunity (America, for example) should theoretically "carry" people with eminent charts easier and higher than a stricken country. It would take extensive research to validate that opinion though, so I wouldn't believe it to be true, and personally--I know already it is not a universal truth, because there are expatriates who succeed in countries other than their own; and also those who suceed despite the conditions of their country. So perhaps it is that a person born in a stricken country would need quite the exceptional chart to become eminent.

There is also the possibility (and viewpoint) that none of this matters at all; this was not mentioned in Anthology and there's the idea that perhaps we shouldn't cater what the ancients say so that it fits neatly in our understanding and expectations of how it ought to work. Only conducting a study could the answer be found.

You're right. Eminence and fame are two different things. My bad.

You make sense.

On the last part, I'd have to disagree. Because I'm sure that there are many people with many indicators of fame and/or eminence and/or rank that are living in a hut in a refugee camp somewhere and will probably die in obscurity. There simply has to be other factors.

eternalautumn said:

Because I'm sure that there are many people with many indicators of fame and/or eminence and/or rank that are living in a hut in a refugee camp somewhere and will probably die in obscurity. There simply has to be other factors.

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You really don't know that, though (edited to say: ) the technique isn't as general as say, "Uranus on the midheaven equals fame", it's a bit more complex which gives it the accuracy. I agree with you though to some extent, I guess I am more adamant about the idea of holding my own conclusions until I actually did the research. Also .. the last part (you quoted me) wasn't necessarily what I believed but what feels like a necessary consideration.

Okay.

Also, timing has got to be an important factor, too, right? Are there any predictive methods that show when and where one might become famous, or when they reach the pinnacle of success?

eternalautumn said:

Okay.

Also, timing has got to be an important factor, too, right? Are there any predictive methods that show when and where one might become famous, or when they reach the pinnacle of success?

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Yes, timing is one definite factor they mention. I don't have the Anthology to quote (I read a PDF online but never owned the book and it was shortly taken down); but I'm sure they specified seeing if the native would even live long to see this "promise". As timing always is in astrology it's the most complex part! A general way is considering the trigon lords, not the most accurate; basically saying "this part of your life should be real good, this one not so much". Another way is zodiacal releasing which is pretty complicated and can divide the years up by dividing the signs, in a way similar to firdaria but of course more ancient. Using this one could decide when the native would reach "eminence".

chuckysbride666 said:

ive actually thought about writing my own book,recently i started writing like a vampire type but i didnt continue it but now im thinking i should the past year ive had ideas for books i could write but i never thought it would be successful but its worth a try thank you x

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Yes I would pursue it.

Skillcoil said:

Thank you RayAustin. I have my 12th house ruler, Saturn in the tenth house, also Uranus. Although in equal its in the eleventh house, I checked the charts you mentioned and it seems to go by equal house. With this method, is Jupiter associated with Sagittarius or Pisces?

About the nodes its something I've seen a few times, but havent looked into it enough to consider it. I thought the vertex might be connected because it's associated with fate.

This is one of most heavily aspected Moons I've seen, their POF conjuncts Saturn, would that have a negative or positive impact to their potential of being well known? chart

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Vertex is always between 5th and 8th houses and it may contribute with creativity and using others assets but again without 10th planets and or node, there will be no fame.

Claire19 said:

Vertex is always between 5th and 8th houses and it may contribute with creativity and using others assets but again without 10th planets and or node, there will be no fame.

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Hi Claire, you seem really adamant about no 10th house planets indicating no fame, almost as an absolute when you say it like you did, "without 10th house planets and or node, there will be no fame.", But this is despite Ray Austin clearly describing the opposite. My only problem with you saying it like you did, is how you don't seem to give room for the possibility of anything else...like it's a final verdict...could you at least explain further why you feel so strongly about this? even though there clearly are examples that refute your opinion as Ray Austin had mentioned?
I'm just bothered by this because even if I can only speak for myself, I don't think it's fair to anybody else who aspires to fame or some sort of acclaim or recognition to be shot down or discouraged by a really heavy-handed reading like that, especially if there is the possibility of other factors in a chart that could indicate fame/acclaim.

Yes.. the node being a requirement is something new to me.

Skillcoil said:

Thank you RayAustin.

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You're welcome.

I have my 12th house ruler, Saturn in the tenth house, also Uranus. Although in equal its in the eleventh house, I checked the charts you mentioned and it seems to go by equal house. With this method, is Jupiter associated with Sagittarius or Pisces?

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Jupiter's associated with both Sagittarius and Pisces .. that's a good point to bring up, for people with more modern thinking. I am following the charts by whole sign, not equal house, as Valens would look at it. The houses are created by the signs without the degrees.

If Saturn is "with" the midheaven (in same sign) I would count it as a tenth house influence. If it's not and just in the 11th in whole sign, I would interpret with these methods Saturn in the eleventh.

This is one of most heavily aspected Moons I've seen, their POF conjuncts Saturn, would that have a negative or positive impact to their potential of being well known? chart

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That is a great question. This person is young.

Saturn in this chart is almost well placed. This is a day chart, so Saturn operates well especially since he's in his own trigon (triplicity) and angular--that alone is great (Valens' mentions this information in Book II of Anthologies); he would act benefic. The retrograde is going to be a negative impact, also the opposition to its house ruler (degrees don't matter) Jupiter which also rules the lot of fortune (and is in detriment) is going to be certain issue. The trine from the Sun in Leo may be of help, the trine from Mars in Aries may help too.

In a night chart, Saturn would definitely have a negative impact and the opposition would be very bad - by Valens' standards; the person might be impoverished (if we looked at that alone) or reduced in rank.

This quote would also apply to this person, from Anthologies:

Vettius Valens said:

The 7th Place of the Descendant
Benefics in this Place and ruling the Ascendant or the Lot of Fortune indicate good things for the native: inheritances, sudden acquisition of other property, and benefits from a death. If the benefics are not in their own places, men are less prosperous, but not poverty-stricken.

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Again you have to consider that Jupiter opposes Saturn, but I don't think it's going to be extremely troublesome.
Edited to say, he also says:

Benefics [in the seventh house] make men with much experience and those who are fortunate in old age.

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just be born with your trigons angular and the Lords of Fortune, Spirit, Basis and Exaltation in the 10th sign from the lots. If you do that you're gonna be golden. preferrably you'd have the lots themselves in an angular sign as well.
just get on good ole Delphic Oracle and look up your eminence score. you can download a free trial version of that ish here:


http://www.tucows.com/preview/327995

We both know Delphic Oracle is lacking though, but I suppose it's a start; edited to say .. it also really helps spotting things you can't "eyeball".

RayAustin, I appreciate the interpretation of how Saturn would interact with the POF in the chart. I thought it might just be considered a malefic influence, I didn't know it could be that complex.
Thank you

I checked my Saturn in whole signs, its in Sagittarius, same sign as the MC but also in the eleventh house, so if I interpreted it correctly it has tenth house influence. I like whole signs, but it would be nice if my Ascendant was at an early degree so the chart wouldnt change with every house system lol.

I made a thread asking about fame a while ago, someone commented with this link and mentioned that whole signs is used. http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/

Claire19 said:

Vertex is always between 5th and 8th houses and it may contribute with creativity and using others assets but again without 10th planets and or node, there will be no fame.

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That isn't true at all. Fame is largely based on placement of Sun/Moon in Angular Houses, plus the "spear-bearers" (or attendants if you prefer) if any around Sun/Moon. If the Sun isn't Angular, it has to be Aries, Sagittarius or Pisces, Moon has be exalted or good aspect with Ascendant Ruler or MC Ruler and if not then there have to be Planets in Angular Houses, especially Ascendant Ruler and MC Ruler, and they have to be in Rulership or Exaltation and not impeded (ie not Retrograde, aspected by a Planet from a Cadent House etc etc). There are a few other conditions as well.

Bill Clinton has no Planets in his 10th House, but Moon rules the 10th House and Sun is in Leo (plus conjunct Regulus), Ascendant Ruler Venus is Angular and so is Mars and Jupiter (who is conjunct Spica).

So, not only does his chart scream "Fame!" it also screams "Kingship!"

Another fail for modern astrology.

The Nodes, well that's just absurd as they play no role except to make any Planet they're conjunct with stronger or weaker.

joecoe said:

What are your thoughts on Jupiter in 5th house, mars in 6th house, both in scorpio, venus in leo in 3rd house and sun in virgo in 4th house?

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None of these placements indicate fame by themselves. The 10th house is always the house for fame and public life.

Claire19 said:

None of these placements indicate fame by themselves. The 10th house is always the house for fame and public life.

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I'm beginning to think you're a representative of some sort sponsoring the tenth house. just kidding.

BobZemco said:

That isn't true at all. Fame is largely based on placement of Sun/Moon in Angular Houses, plus the "spear-bearers" (or attendants if you prefer) if any around Sun/Moon. If the Sun isn't Angular, it has to be Aries, Sagittarius or Pisces, Moon has be exalted or good aspect with Ascendant Ruler or MC Ruler and if not then there have to be Planets in Angular Houses, especially Ascendant Ruler and MC Ruler, and they have to be in Rulership or Exaltation and not impeded (ie not Retrograde, aspected by a Planet from a Cadent House etc etc). There are a few other conditions as well.

Bill Clinton has no Planets in his 10th House, but Moon rules the 10th House and Sun is in Leo (plus conjunct Regulus), Ascendant Ruler Venus is Angular and so is Mars and Jupiter (who is conjunct Spica).

So, not only does his chart scream "Fame!" it also screams "Kingship!"

Another fail for modern astrology.

The Nodes, well that's just absurd as they play no role except to make any Planet they're conjunct with stronger or weaker.

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For a start Bill Clinton has Saturn in the 10th, classic for politics. His Mercury is also there and close to the 11th house. He is known as a good orator.

I would suggest that planets conjunct the north node make the north node stronger rather. Helps to head the native in the direction for this lifetime.

The Leo stellium does show kingship and fame of a sort. He has made a fortune from public speaking and from his books....strong Venus in Libra sextile Mercury etc. With the Libra stellium he has been a lawyer and married one.

HIs MC ruler is the Moon in Taurus in the 8th, not well aspected and his reputation with women and sex is not favourable and with Pluto square that Moon to the 11th, again the media have contributed to the exposure of his sexual antics and other secrets that can be investigated, especially from the past.

I know his chart backwards as it is mine also with differences....of course.....

I