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  #1  
Unread 11-23-2014, 08:08 AM
SunW SunW is offline
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The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

Karmen Hamaker-Zondag has a book called The Twelfth House and she says that the 12th house shows the eventd that happened to the native and to his mother while he was in the womb.

For instance, Uranus in the 12th house might mean that while you were in the womb something unexpected had happened - an earthquake, the mother stucked in an elevator or anything like that.

Pluto in the 12th house - a danger for he life of the person's mother or anything that Pluto rules. Zondag gives an example for a person with Pluto in the 12th house whose mother was chased by his father (her husband) who had a gun and said he would kill her.

Saturn in the 12th house - she gives an example with a mother that was feeling lonelybecause she had to move from the big city into a small town and the father was often absent during her pregnancy.



Maybe later I'll write a bit more about that.


What do you have to say about your pre-birth experiences and your 12th house?

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  #2  
Unread 11-23-2014, 07:50 PM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

I've read this book, but I actually do not think this theory works 100%. My daughter's sun and Mercury are in her 12th house, but she was a joyfully anticipated addition to the family and my pregnancy was perfectly normal.

My pet theory is that souls incarnate with the time, place, and circumstances most conducive for their growth; or for the growth of other people around them.
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Unread 11-23-2014, 08:16 PM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

My dad couldn't make it while my mother was giving birth to me because he was at work. I do think her health was jeopardized in some manner though (all pregnancies carry risks), but not to the dramatic extent that your 12th house quotes make it out to be...
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Unread 11-23-2014, 08:32 PM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

Saturn/Neptune joined in the 12th; suffering that is akin to being crucified on the cross of matter. In my case it related to near suffocation at the time of birth, with the cord wrapped around my neck and having to be incubated for some time, and separated from my mother.
I continued to experience that emotional separation in my relationship with her, throughout our short life together. I don't know if she knew about my heart defect or not.
The symbolism of the 'cross' has always been significant to me, and in grade 7 I was given an inscribed golden cross for academic excellent...now though, whenever I try to wear it, it separates from the different chains I try to use within a very short time ...some significance there too...
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  #5  
Unread 11-24-2014, 03:47 AM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

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Originally Posted by kimbermoon View Post
Saturn/Neptune joined in the 12th;
What signs do you have in the 12th house?
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Unread 11-24-2014, 03:41 PM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

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I've read this book, but I actually do not think this theory works 100%. My daughter's sun and Mercury are in her 12th house, but she was a joyfully anticipated addition to the family and my pregnancy was perfectly normal.
The Sun and Mercury are planets with good influence. Of course, it is also imortant to know what sign or signs your daughter has in her 12th house. What is it?

The Sun in the 12th house might mean that the person's father was often absent, either physically or emotionally, during the pregnancy or in the early life of the child. Is that so in your daughter's case?

Would you like to mention something about your 12 house?
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Unread 11-24-2014, 04:13 PM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

This still doesn't support KH-Z's interpretation. During my pregnancy with my daughter I was then happily married and my husband and I shared a lot of baby-care responsibilities. My daughter has Libra rising, with a Virgo sun and Mercury (exalted/domiciled.)

Her dad and I divorced when she was an older child, but she still remains on good terms with him.

I have Virgo rising. Depending upon the house system, normally this puts the sun as the ruler of my 12th house, with Saturn in Virgo in the 12th. However, my Saturn doesn't conjunct my daughter's Virgo planets.

I have a lot of respect for KH-Z as an astrologer, but this is one case where I don't think her delineation is completely correct.

As with any house, the 12th has multiple meanings.
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  #8  
Unread 11-24-2014, 04:33 PM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

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I have Virgo rising. Depending upon the house system, normally this puts the sun as the ruler of my 12th house, with Saturn in Virgo in the 12th. However, my Saturn doesn't conjunct my daughter's Virgo planets.
It's interesting that your daughter has the Sun in her 12th house and you have Leo in the same house. Do you think that in your case Zondag is right - Saturn in the 12th house - the mother was feeling lonely and isolated during her pregnancy. Leo in the 12th house - the father was absent - physically or emotionally?
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Unread 11-24-2014, 05:40 PM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

I have the combination of Libra/Scorpio for the 12th...
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Unread 11-24-2014, 05:48 PM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

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Originally Posted by kimbermoon View Post
I have the combination of Libra/Scorpio for the 12th...

"In my case it related to near suffocation at the time of birth, with the cord wrapped around my neck"

This is the influence of the Scorpio Ascendant.


"and having to be incubated for some time, and separated from my mother.
I continued to experience that emotional separation in my relationship with her, throughout our short life together. I don't know if she knew about my heart defect or not."


It will be interesting to see the aspects, the sign and the house of your Moon and the 10th house - the house of the person's mother. Do your Saturn and Neptune have an aspect to your Moon?
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Unread 11-24-2014, 06:19 PM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

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It's interesting that your daughter has the Sun in her 12th house and you have Leo in the same house. Do you think that in your case Zondag is right - Saturn in the 12th house - the mother was feeling lonely and isolated during her pregnancy. Leo in the 12th house - the father was absent - physically or emotionally?
I also have sun and mercury in the 12th in leo and although my mother has never told me anything about her pregnancy(so i just assume there was nothing unusual) i do remember that when i was very young my dad had to go on a lot of business trips and he would be gone for long periods of time.
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Unread 11-24-2014, 06:21 PM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

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I also have sun and mercury in the 12th in leo and although my mother has never told me anything about her pregnancy(so i just assume there was nothing unusual) i do remember that when i was very young my dad had to go on a lot of business trips and he would be gone for long periods of time.

Was he often absent even during your mother's pregnancy with you?
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Unread 11-24-2014, 06:41 PM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

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Was he often absent even during your mother's pregnancy with you?
I have no idea, but i don't think so because i'm pretty sure he was only away around the time i was 2-5 years old.
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Unread 11-24-2014, 08:40 PM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

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It's interesting that your daughter has the Sun in her 12th house and you have Leo in the same house. Do you think that in your case Zondag is right - Saturn in the 12th house - the mother was feeling lonely and isolated during her pregnancy. Leo in the 12th house - the father was absent - physically or emotionally?

No, absolutely not. I was not feeling lonely and isolated during my pregnancy. At that time, I had a lot of friends, including couples whose growing families were at the same stage as ours. (Again, my daughter has sun and Mercury in the 12th.)

Saturn is in my 12th house, not my daughter's. I did experience my own father as somewhat aloof, but certainly not absent. He was a classic workaholic, but definitely a presence in the family. Possibly my mother felt lonely or isolated during her pregnancy with me, but she died 30 years ago, so I have no way of asking her.

I think we have to stop making the 12th house a "one size fits all" proposition.

Traditionally the sun indicates the father in a day birth; and Saturn, in a night birth. The 4th house cusp also symbolizes the father. (Moderns switched this to the mother, probably believing it should match better with the moon and Cancer.)
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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Unread 12-07-2014, 02:07 PM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

hmmm interesting. i have leo in my 12th house. as what i've read about leo in 12th house, it's all about taking things and brooding on your own.

my father was away when my mother was pregnant with me. she was on her own. on the day my paternal grandmother came, that was the time she gave birth. she opted for a painless birth so she underwent aneasthesia, which made me asleep the entire birthing process. however, she had eclampsia as a result. she was confirmed dead while i'm still sleeping. my maternal grandmother could not have any rights on my mother's dead body because she did not have enough identification to support that she was my grandmother and that she was my mother's mother-in-law. after 6 hours, just as when the doctors finally decided to embalm my mother, they caught a pulse. my mother is still alive at this moment.
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Unread 12-08-2014, 12:47 PM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

Where is your Pluto and does it have an aspect to your ascendant or your Moon?
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Unread 12-12-2014, 12:39 AM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunW View Post
Karmen Hamaker-Zondag has a book called The Twelfth House and she says that the 12th house shows the eventd that happened to the native and to his mother while he was in the womb.

For instance, Uranus in the 12th house might mean that while you were in the womb something unexpected had happened - an earthquake, the mother stucked in an elevator or anything like that.

Pluto in the 12th house - a danger for he life of the person's mother or anything that Pluto rules. Zondag gives an example for a person with Pluto in the 12th house whose mother was chased by his father (her husband) who had a gun and said he would kill her.

Saturn in the 12th house - she gives an example with a mother that was feeling lonelybecause she had to move from the big city into a small town and the father was often absent during her pregnancy.



Maybe later I'll write a bit more about that.


What do you have to say about your pre-birth experiences and your 12th house?
I believe Jan Spiller has a book on that. I think planets in the 12th house can indicate events whilst mother was pregnant and perhaps the ruler of the 12th and where it is can show influences too. The 12th house is our karmic heritage, our neuroses and weaknesses are shown here, our addictions, our self destructive behaviour but also our spirituality and how we behave when we are in retreat or alone. Some of the neuroses may have been created by a womb experience perhaps. Something to think about.

In my case I have Aquarius on the 12th cusp with Uranus in the 4th house of hereditary traits and I have my mother's ankles and calves which Uranus rules. The 12th also deals with paternal aunts and uncles but that is a whole other story.
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Last edited by Claire19; 12-12-2014 at 12:58 AM.
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Unread 12-12-2014, 01:00 AM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

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It's interesting that your daughter has the Sun in her 12th house and you have Leo in the same house. Do you think that in your case Zondag is right - Saturn in the 12th house - the mother was feeling lonely and isolated during her pregnancy. Leo in the 12th house - the father was absent - physically or emotionally?
As I have mentioned paternal aunts and uncles are represented by the 12th house as well. I would have to look at the aspects made elsewhere for planets in the 12th, they dont have to be all doom and gloom.
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Unread 12-12-2014, 06:25 AM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

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Where is your Pluto and does it have an aspect to your ascendant or your Moon?
not sure if you're asking but since it's below my post...

my pluto is in scorpio. i'm new to this natal chart thing. how would i know if my pluto as aspects to my asc (virgo) and my moon (pisces)?

ETA: umm wait... i don't have planets in my 12th house but leo is in my 12th house

Last edited by alunsina; 12-12-2014 at 06:38 PM.
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Unread 12-12-2014, 11:04 AM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

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Originally Posted by kimbermoon View Post
I have the combination of Libra/Scorpio for the 12th...
I am scorpio rising (western Astro), libra rising (vedic) and my 12 cusp sign Virgo. My mom had a close shave with death. She was operated without anaesthetic due to urgency, mine was supposed to natural birth but that didn't happen. My mom only had her own mom for help. Dad wasn't there, had to look after my brother who suffered from Acute asthma.
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Unread 12-12-2014, 06:40 PM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

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Originally Posted by alunsina View Post
not sure if you're asking but since it's below my post...

my pluto is in scorpio. i'm new to this natal chart thing. how would i know if my pluto as aspects to my asc (virgo) and my moon (pisces)?

ETA: umm wait... i don't have planets in my 12th house but leo is in my 12th house
here's what i got for aspects.. i think nothing is related to my pluto.
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Unread 12-30-2014, 10:53 PM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

I have Sagittarius and Capricorn (but no planets) in my 12th. And I have one heck of an interesting story about my birth, not that I can remember it but here's how the tale was told:

I was born three weeks early and breech. I literally came into the world *** backwards. An emergency c-section was done and the doctors gave my mother too much anesthetic, so she was unconscious when I was born and for a long time afterwards. My estimated due date turned out to be my brother's birthday 7 years later.

My dad was going to go into the operating room when I was born. They told him, put these scrubs on and we'll come and get you, but they never did. He stood outside and waited and waited and however long later, they wheel baby me out in one of those incubator things. I don't know if the next part is true, I only heard my father's version of this once, but the nurse pushing the incubator supposedly almost tipped it over while I was in it.

So neither of my parents were present/conscious, and I faced what could have been certain death if not for modern day surgery. It's a surprise I got this far, LOL.
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Unread 12-30-2014, 10:58 PM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

I have Sagittarius and Capricorn (but no planets) in my 12th. And I have one heck of an interesting story about my birth, not that I can remember it but here's how the tale was told:

I was born three weeks early and breech. I literally came into the world *** backwards. An emergency c-section was done and the doctors gave my mother too much anesthetic, so she was unconscious when I was born and for a long time afterwards. My estimated due date turned out to be my brother's birthday 7 years later.

My dad was going to go into the operating room when I was born. They told him, put these scrubs on and we'll come and get you, but they never did. He stood outside and waited and waited and however long later, they wheel baby me out in one of those incubator things. I don't know if the next part is true, I only heard my father's version of this once, but the nurse pushing the incubator supposedly almost tipped it over while I was in it.

So neither of my parents were present/conscious, and I faced what could have been certain death if not for modern day surgery. It's a surprise I got this far, LOL.
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Unread 01-07-2015, 11:25 PM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

I am not familiar with the book mentioned by OP, although I have Hamaker-Zondag's book on Yods and unaspected planets, which is a wonderful work.

I do question the `planets in the 12th house' theory of in utero experience. However, I have noticed, just from my own rather random research, that any planets *close* to the Asc - either very late in 12th, or very early in 1st - do describe conditions either pre-birth, or immediately post-birth. For instance, having Neptune conjunct Asc on a natal chart appears to describe a health limitation, which is generally present for no more than 12-18 months of the baby's life. To give just one example, my grandson's half-sister was born with Neptune 31' short of her Aqua Ascendant. For the first year of her life she was in and out of hospital with a condition which took some time to diagnose, but was as a result of some muscles not yet being fully ready to function. By the time she was 15 months she was healthy. She has just turned 3. With natal Chiron very early in Pisces, and a little less that 3 degr past her Asc, I suspect this experience will have a lasting resonance for her, even if only at an unconscious level.
(At the time the child was having regular hospital visits, I detected almost an enjoyment in the adults - parents & grandparents - around her. She seemed to be used as an attention-getter. I'm hoping the little girl doesn't use illness to seek attention in her future life, but it is a possibility.)
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Unread 01-07-2015, 11:29 PM
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Re: The 12th house and pre-birth experiences

ScorpioCrow, I've just read your post above. I assume that you have Capricorn Rising. Almost universally (but not always) Cap rising people struggle to be born. Mine was a difficult birth which wiped out my mother for 12 months. I also have no planets in the 12th. My own theory about Cap Rising births is that before and during the birth process we actively resist being born, because we know what we're in for during our life. Just a theory.
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