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Research and Development This is a forum designed for applying scientific methods and understanding to all approaches of astrology, cooperative formulation and testing of new ideas, re-examination of known methods of delineation and interpretation, and the exploration of new astrological methods of all kinds (e.g. heliocentric models, planetary nodes and apogees, etc.).


View Poll Results: How many of you believe that Humans have FreeWill?
Yes Humans have total FREE WILL 13 35.14%
Probably...Humans have FREE WILL more than 50% of the time 7 18.92%
Maybe...Humans have Free Will less than 50% of the time 4 10.81%
NO... Humans have no FREE WILL at all 13 35.14%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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  #51  
Unread 08-15-2013, 11:18 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

Quote:
Originally Posted by eternalautumn View Post
Maybe. I don't not believe in "meaning", just that there's not some deeper meaning to existence. It just is.


Meaninglessness in several languages as described in the Bible

- Bible is in the public domain


Latin: Biblia Sacra Vulgata
vanitas vanitatum dixit Ecclesiastes vanitas vanitatum omnia vanitas


"Vanity of vanities," says the Preacher, "Vanity of vanities! All is vanity."

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"Absolutely pointless!" says the spokesman. "Absolutely pointless! Everything is pointless."


Ecclesiastes 1:2 Greek OT: Septuagint with Diacritics
ματαιότης ματαιοτήτων εἶπεν ὁ ἐκκλησιαστής ματαιότης ματαιοτήτων τὰ πάντα ματαιότης


קהלת 1:2 Hebrew OT: BHS (Consonants & Vowels)
הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים אָמַר קֹהֶלֶת הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים הַכֹּל הָבֶל׃


Eclesiastés 1:2 Spanish: La Biblia de las Américas (©1997)
Vanidad de vanidades, dice el Predicador, vanidad de vanidades, todo es vanidad.


Prediger 1:2 German: Luther (1912)
Es ist alles ganz eitel, sprach der Prediger, es ist alles ganz eitel.


Ecclésiaste 1:2 French: Louis Segond (1910)
Vanité des vanités, dit l'Ecclésiaste, vanité des vanités, tout est vanité.


傳 道 書 1:2 Chinese Bible: Union (Simplified)
传 道 者 说 : 虚 空 的 虚 空 , 虚 空 的 虚 空 , 凡 事 都 是 虚 空 。


Predikuesi 1:2 Albanian
Kotësi e kotësive, thotë Predikuesi;


Еклесиаст 1:2 Bulgarian
Суета на суетите, казва проповедникът; Суета на суетите, всичко е суета.
.
Ecclesiastes 1:2 Croatian Bible
Ispraznost nad ispraznošću, veli Propovjednik, ispraznost nad ispraznošću, sve je ispraznost!


Kazatel 1:2 Czech BKR
Marnost nad marnostmi, řekl kazatel, marnost nad marnostmi, a všecko marnost.


Prædikeren 1:2 Danish
Endeløs Tomhed, sagde Prædikeren, endeløs Tomhed, alt er Tomhed!


Prediker 1:2 Dutch Staten Vertaling
Ijdelheid der ijdelheden, zegt de prediker; ijdelheid der ijdelheden, het is al ijdelheid.


Prédikátor 1:2 Hungarian: Karoli
Felette nagy hiábavalóság, azt mondja a prédikátor; felette nagy hiábavalóság! Minden hiábavalóság!


La predikanto 1:2 Esperanto
Vantajxo de vantajxoj, diris la Predikanto; vantajxo de vantajxoj, cxio estas vantajxo.


SAARNAAJA 1:2 Finnish: Bible (1776)
Turhuuksien turhuus, sanoi saarnaaja, turhuuksien turhuus; kaikki on turhuutta!


SAARNAAJA 1:2 Finnish: Pyhä Raamattu (1933/1938)
Turhuuksien turhuus, sanoi saarnaaja, turhuuksien turhuus; kaikki on turhuutta!


Ecclesiastes 1:2 Greek OT: Septuagint
ματαιοτης ματαιοτητων ειπεν ο εκκλησιαστης ματαιοτης ματαιοτητων τα παντα ματαιοτης


Ecclesiastes 1:2 Greek OT: Septuagint - Transliterated
mataiotēs mataiotētōn eipen o ekklēsiastēs mataiotēs mataiotētōn ta panta mataiotēs
mataiotEs mataiotEtOn eipen o ekklEsiastEs mataiotEs mataiotEtOn ta panta mataiotEs


Eklezyas - Liv Filozòf la 1:2 Haitian Creole Bible
Nan lavi a anyen pa vo anyen. Se sa filozòf la di. Non, anyen pa vo anyen nan lavi a. Tout bagay gen pou pase.


ﺍﻟﺠﺎﻣﻌﺔ 1:2 Arabic: Smith & Van Dyke
باطل الاباطيل قال الجامعة. باطل الاباطيل الكل باطل.


קהלת 1:2 Hebrew OT: BHS (Consonants Only)

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #52  
Unread 08-15-2013, 02:16 PM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Sorry, but this is a classic example of the fallacy of circular reasoning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...-question.html
From the other side if this argument, this is not circular reasoning as there is a fact -- it's just on a future event.

With predictive astrology, which I assume that you do not believe in since you appear to be a Christian (not a slight, just an observance), I can predict that a person will move in the year 2014 to a foreign country and may even be able to identify that it is Europe. From my side of the fence, that is a fact based on predictive astrology. Since you are on the other side of the argument, you may decide that is not a fact and that is fine -- that is really what this question about free will is all about.

Moving along on the free will part, is it really free will if this same person (that I see moving to Europe in the next year) is facing a decision today living in the USA on whether to take a job on a foreign country. It may not be that particular job but, it will be a job in Europe eventually (unless they don't need to work). Or maybe the person will move there first or meet someone here from Europe and go back with them. By looking at the current activities, it is possible to see how the pieces fit together to create the domino effect that becomes our path in life.

My failing as an astrology is that I may not see all the pieces to fit them in correctly or I may not look far enough ahead to see the turning points in one's life and then fit the pieces in correctly to get to that point. After all, it takes much time and care to do this properly.

At this point in your life, you are where you are meant to be. Take a journey back and pull your memories up and see if you can find the decision points in your life that put you here and you'll realize that there was probably never a question as to what your final decision would be as you look back in hindsight. That is what put you where you are today, decisions that seemed to be decisions made of free will but, were really destined as a result of the person that you are.

You are free to use circular reasoning as an argument but, from my side of the fence you are in effect (IMHO) using circular reasoning by indirectly stating that future events cannot be foretold and as a result, current events cannot be a result of the future event.

What a tangled web we weave ... but, it's a great discussion ...




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  #53  
Unread 08-15-2013, 02:55 PM
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poyi poyi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post


Meaninglessness in several languages as described in the Bible

- Bible is in the public domain


Latin: Biblia Sacra Vulgata
vanitas vanitatum dixit Ecclesiastes vanitas vanitatum omnia vanitas


"Vanity of vanities," says the Preacher, "Vanity of vanities! All is vanity."

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"Absolutely pointless!" says the spokesman. "Absolutely pointless! Everything is pointless."


Ecclesiastes 1:2 Greek OT: Septuagint with Diacritics
ματαιότης ματαιοτήτων εἶπεν ὁ ἐκκλησιαστής ματαιότης ματαιοτήτων τὰ πάντα ματαιότης


קהלת 1:2 Hebrew OT: BHS (Consonants & Vowels)
הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים אָמַר קֹהֶלֶת הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים הַכֹּל הָבֶל׃


Eclesiastés 1:2 Spanish: La Biblia de las Américas (©1997)
Vanidad de vanidades, dice el Predicador, vanidad de vanidades, todo es vanidad.


Prediger 1:2 German: Luther (1912)
Es ist alles ganz eitel, sprach der Prediger, es ist alles ganz eitel.


Ecclésiaste 1:2 French: Louis Segond (1910)
Vanité des vanités, dit l'Ecclésiaste, vanité des vanités, tout est vanité.


傳 道 書 1:2 Chinese Bible: Union (Simplified)
传 道 者 说 : 虚 空 的 虚 空 , 虚 空 的 虚 空 , 凡 事 都 是 虚 空 。


Predikuesi 1:2 Albanian
Kotësi e kotësive, thotë Predikuesi;


Еклесиаст 1:2 Bulgarian
Суета на суетите, казва проповедникът; Суета на суетите, всичко е суета.
.
Ecclesiastes 1:2 Croatian Bible
Ispraznost nad ispraznošću, veli Propovjednik, ispraznost nad ispraznošću, sve je ispraznost!


Kazatel 1:2 Czech BKR
Marnost nad marnostmi, řekl kazatel, marnost nad marnostmi, a všecko marnost.


Prædikeren 1:2 Danish
Endeløs Tomhed, sagde Prædikeren, endeløs Tomhed, alt er Tomhed!


Prediker 1:2 Dutch Staten Vertaling
Ijdelheid der ijdelheden, zegt de prediker; ijdelheid der ijdelheden, het is al ijdelheid.


Prédikátor 1:2 Hungarian: Karoli
Felette nagy hiábavalóság, azt mondja a prédikátor; felette nagy hiábavalóság! Minden hiábavalóság!


La predikanto 1:2 Esperanto
Vantajxo de vantajxoj, diris la Predikanto; vantajxo de vantajxoj, cxio estas vantajxo.


SAARNAAJA 1:2 Finnish: Bible (1776)
Turhuuksien turhuus, sanoi saarnaaja, turhuuksien turhuus; kaikki on turhuutta!


SAARNAAJA 1:2 Finnish: Pyhä Raamattu (1933/1938)
Turhuuksien turhuus, sanoi saarnaaja, turhuuksien turhuus; kaikki on turhuutta!


Ecclesiastes 1:2 Greek OT: Septuagint
ματαιοτης ματαιοτητων ειπεν ο εκκλησιαστης ματαιοτης ματαιοτητων τα παντα ματαιοτης


Ecclesiastes 1:2 Greek OT: Septuagint - Transliterated
mataiotēs mataiotētōn eipen o ekklēsiastēs mataiotēs mataiotētōn ta panta mataiotēs
mataiotEs mataiotEtOn eipen o ekklEsiastEs mataiotEs mataiotEtOn ta panta mataiotEs


Eklezyas - Liv Filozòf la 1:2 Haitian Creole Bible
Nan lavi a anyen pa vo anyen. Se sa filozòf la di. Non, anyen pa vo anyen nan lavi a. Tout bagay gen pou pase.


ﺍﻟﺠﺎﻣﻌﺔ 1:2 Arabic: Smith & Van Dyke
باطل الاباطيل قال الجامعة. باطل الاباطيل الكل باطل.


קהלת 1:2 Hebrew OT: BHS (Consonants Only)
Very Very well done for JupiterAsc to find this in so many versions in different languages. This is the best book in the Bible to me. All the wisdoms and answers, to me is written there. Even the New Testaments took 500 years for the recent church (last 2000 years+) to select which books to be part of the New Testaments. Obviously the church the human built, made and maintained is not the Church. They are the churches of men.

I don't have the facts and historical evidences here to defence myself against different nember's personal view to support that the God in Bible is the One. I can only say I follow my conscience the hidden most powerful force in my heart to stay believe which is yes my Jupiter in the chart that the God, Bible had described is the most possible one. He is both light and darkness, the original blueprint of us, the One Himself used his free will to create us.
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  #54  
Unread 08-15-2013, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marinka View Post
From the other side if this argument, this is not circular reasoning as there is a fact -- it's just on a future event.

With predictive astrology, which I assume that you do not believe in since you appear to be a Christian (not a slight, just an observance), I can predict that a person will move in the year 2014 to a foreign country and may even be able to identify that it is Europe. From my side of the fence, that is a fact based on predictive astrology. Since you are on the other side of the argument, you may decide that is not a fact and that is fine -- that is really what this question about free will is all about.

Moving along on the free will part, is it really free will if this same person (that I see moving to Europe in the next year) is facing a decision today living in the USA on whether to take a job on a foreign country. It may not be that particular job but, it will be a job in Europe eventually (unless they don't need to work). Or maybe the person will move there first or meet someone here from Europe and go back with them. By looking at the current activities, it is possible to see how the pieces fit together to create the domino effect that becomes our path in life.

My failing as an astrology is that I may not see all the pieces to fit them in correctly or I may not look far enough ahead to see the turning points in one's life and then fit the pieces in correctly to get to that point. After all, it takes much time and care to do this properly.

At this point in your life, you are where you are meant to be. Take a journey back and pull your memories up and see if you can find the decision points in your life that put you here and you'll realize that there was probably never a question as to what your final decision would be as you look back in hindsight. That is what put you where you are today, decisions that seemed to be decisions made of free will but, were really destined as a result of the person that you are.

You are free to use circular reasoning as an argument but, from my side of the fence you are in effect (IMHO) using circular reasoning by indirectly stating that future events cannot be foretold and as a result, current events cannot be a result of the future event.

What a tangled web we weave ... but, it's a great discussion ...




I had unusual dream when I was little. From memory, I was talking to a man on a throne, he looked like what we would call the God in heaven. I was very young at the time and was never yet had any idea of Christianity. I was always studied in Buddhism based primary school at the time. To cut the story short, in the dream I stood in front of him, and he asked me, "What do you want to be in this life?" , I gave him my answer (I won't mention here as not relevant).

My point is rather that dream was real or not. There is a possibility of incarnation and possibly that we got to choose our path of life based on our free will. When a spirit entered into the physical body under the combinations of the planetary energy then that is the beginning of us entered into the physical world that is fated and can be predicted.

I thought it will be interesting to mention this dream. I can't force people to believe the existence of spirit nor incrantion either. But I experienced myself for a length of time the dimension of different reality. All I could do is to pass on this message and up to you how you interpret and what to believe in. Perhaps each of us has different paths on finding this out in our own time and in our own unique way. Maybe even that is not possible to be shared but can only be acknowledged through your own enlightenment.
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  #55  
Unread 08-15-2013, 03:40 PM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

Quote:
Originally Posted by poyi View Post
I had unusual dream when I was little. From memory, I was talking to a man on a throne, he looked like what we would call the God in heaven. I was very young at the time and was never yet had any idea of Christianity. I was always studied in Buddhism based primary school at the time. To cut the story short, in the dream I stood in front of him, and he asked me, "What do you want to be in this life?" , I gave him my answer (I won't mention here as not relevant).

My point is rather that dream was real or not. There is a possibility of incarnation and possibly that we got to choose our path of life based on our free will. When a spirit entered into the physical body under the combinations of the planetary energy then that is the beginning of us entered into the physical world that is fated and can be predicted.

I thought it will be interesting to mention this dream. I can't force people to believe the existence of spirit nor incrantion either. But I experienced myself for a length of time the dimension of different reality. All I could do is to pass on this message and up to you how you interpret and what to believe in. Perhaps each of us has different paths on finding this out in our own time and in our own unique way. Maybe even that is not possible to be shared but can only be acknowledged through your own enlightenment.
Yes I do remember my many readings on how an individual can pick a life and at the time of picking - sees the entire life unfold. I'm not sure that I can see an individual maintaining his/her "oneness" though and that is what these ideas are based on. My thoughts are more along the lines that once we pass, we become energy and become part of a greater energy ... similar to a stream merging into a river and then the river merging into the ocean. We loose what makes us "us".

This energy could then be reunited into a body at a birth, but the energy has no "intactness" (for lack of a better word) with a previous life - no memories, or if there are memories, it would be of many lives since the energies of so many are in the "ocean" and co-mingled.
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  #56  
Unread 08-15-2013, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marinka View Post
Yes I do remember my many readings on how an individual can pick a life and at the time of picking - sees the entire life unfold. I'm not sure that I can see an individual maintaining his/her "oneness" though and that is what these ideas are based on. My thoughts are more along the lines that once we pass, we become energy and become part of a greater energy ... similar to a stream merging into a river and then the river merging into the ocean. We loose what makes us "us".

This energy could then be reunited into a body at a birth, but the energy has no "intactness" (for lack of a better word) with a previous life - no memories, or if there are memories, it would be of many lives since the energies of so many are in the "ocean" and co-mingled.
Thank you for sharing and telling me there is possibly. Yes we are just a drop of water of many rain drops, streams, rivers, lakes, fountains and in the oceans.

The idea of Oneness is achievable once we passed the trails, then we will be allowed to reunion with the origin source. That's the final door to 12th house when there is no longer "Me" but "Us".

In Chinese culture, a spirit will need to drink a potion before crossing the bridge of the dead to the living world to enter the next life. It is a most forbidden knowledge not to know by the livings. Almost like a standard controlled scientific experiment. But the potion is only working like sedation of the spirit, like any surgical operation some people do wake up in the middle of the sedation.

Yep that would be one hopeful possibility when both free way and no free will co-existing.

Last edited by poyi; 08-15-2013 at 03:57 PM.
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  #57  
Unread 08-15-2013, 05:01 PM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

Quote:
Originally Posted by poyi View Post
Thank you for sharing and telling me there is possibly. Yes we are just a drop of water of many rain drops, streams, rivers, lakes, fountains and in the oceans.

The idea of Oneness is achievable once we passed the trails, then we will be allowed to reunion with the origin source. That's the final door to 12th house when there is no longer "Me" but "Us".

In Chinese culture, a spirit will need to drink a potion before crossing the bridge of the dead to the living world to enter the next life. It is a most forbidden knowledge not to know by the livings. Almost like a standard controlled scientific experiment. But the potion is only working like sedation of the spirit, like any surgical operation some people do wake up in the middle of the sedation.

Yep that would be one hopeful possibility when both free way and no free will co-existing.

I think you may be seeing some of what I perceive .... when people achieve enlightenment or their spiritual awakening ... it is a feeling of being part of the whole, NOT being separate from it. It is the ONENESS as you said.
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  #58  
Unread 08-15-2013, 05:27 PM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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Originally Posted by Zarathu View Post
Please respond to the poll if you believe in Free Will. One of the members has made it clear that s/he does not believe in Free Will at all. S/he implied that there were lots of people in his camp.

I was just wondering how many of us here are in "his/her camp" of not believing in FREE WILL.

is it possible for an astrologer to believe in free will؟
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  #59  
Unread 08-15-2013, 05:39 PM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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Originally Posted by Marinka View Post
I think you may be seeing some of what I perceive .... when people achieve enlightenment or their spiritual awakening ... it is a feeling of being part of the whole, NOT being separate from it. It is the ONENESS as you said.
That is the idea and structure of the astrological wheel of life. 12th house is the final door of the soul's experience.

Rather one believing in karma or past live, one can't deny the meaning of 12th house, cadent houses, as much negativity it might also be meaning still a part of the houses of learning and growth.

While my natal sun is placed in the 3rd house in Scorpio, ruler of the Leo cusp of 12th house. Yer it is the essence of my Sun, my goal is to learn and hopefully transcendence in time.

"Time" by The Alan Parsons Project
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZteVdxtky4
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Unread 08-15-2013, 07:03 PM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

I do believe that we are able to use our own free will, yet I also believe in the
concept of predetermination. Personally I believe that free will is a part of our existence, yet so is destiny. If we did not have free will, then why would we make personal decisions and choices that seem to go wrong at times...if it were all predestined, why would the Higher Self fail to intervene in our personal choices? Through our chart we are given a general overview of our mission and purpose in life, but we are also shown the challenges we are meant to overcome in terms of soul growth, and these will be determined by our own actions. In my view, the Nodes relate to our individual destiny, while the Sun represents our free will.
Sun in Cancer: my will is dominated by emotions, having been imprinted with the need to nurture, support and protect those within my family...I was strong in trying to keep the family blended together, yet it eventually turned into a situation more like being in bondage [due to my South Node also in Cancer]; the challenge was about eventually standing on my own and releasing myself from experiencing the obligations toward family members, which they insisted that I do. I had to learn detach myself from them, emotionally, and it was not so easy to do. Gradually I learned that it was up to me to make that break though, and as such it was my own determination to do so;still it was in keeping with my predetermined agenda. I personally chose to do that...now if it had been fate that caused the estrangements, one would expect to suffer the losses through death or accident, etc...some unplanned intervention, but that was not the case for me. It is important to remember that fate does not always have to be negative in nature...I have experienced a number of situations in my life that can only be called divine interventions, which served to help me through difficult circumstances when I was uncertain as to what might be the right thing to do.
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Unread 08-15-2013, 07:19 PM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post

Meaninglessness in several languages as described in the Bible

- Bible is in the public domain

Latin: Biblia Sacra Vulgata
vanitas vanitatum dixit Ecclesiastes vanitas vanitatum omnia vanitas


"Vanity of vanities," says the Preacher, "Vanity of vanities! All is vanity."

.....
)
You're a dab hand with the copy 'n' paste action there, JA. It was fun seeing this in Danish.

But if you read the entire book of Ecclesiastes he concludes with the question of, in light of all of life's futilities, what is a person to do? He says (in the NRSE 9: 7-10):

"Go, eat your bread with enjoyment, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God has long ago what you do. Let your garments always be white [clean]; do not let oil [annointing/hair conditioner in a dry dusty climate] be lacking on your head..Enjoy life with the wife whom you love, all the days of your vain life that are given you under the sun, because that is your portion in life and in your toil at which you toil under the sun. Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might...."

You'd have to conclude a mix of fatalism and choice in this passage of Ecclesiastes-- actually throughout the book. People have a choice to be foolish or wise--including the choice to indulge in ultimately meaningless endeavours. They have a choice to enjoy life's simple pleasures or to deny them. Kohelet (as he is called in the original Hebrew) really points out the futility of life, and the proper response in the face of this futility.

But he does this in a non-astrological sense.

As I discussed previously, we all cope with a lot of things in our lives that we can't change. But you won't find the majority of them in a horoscope.

Of course, if people don't believe in the Bible as a source of wisdom, this is all vanity, anyway.

Ironically, a major consistent point throughout the Bible (both Jewish and Christian) is not fatalism, but human moral choice.
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Last edited by waybread; 08-15-2013 at 08:35 PM.
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Unread 08-15-2013, 08:33 PM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

Marinka-- I am not a Christian. I grew up in a secular household of post-Christian "free thinkers," converted to Judaism as a young adult, and have been inactive in that faith or any faith for the past 20 years. I retain a big interest in western religion and mythology, however.

Circular reasoning (links given above) basically means that the premises are embedded in the conclusion, and vice versa. So one needs evidence or logic external to it in order to make the point. Otherwise it is simply a form of unsubstantiated repetition.

"My" predictive astrology counsels people on good or bad, likely or unlikely times for something to happen. Transiting Venus and Jupiter in your 7th house? Sure. This would be a good time to establish a relationship. Would I forecast that it will happen with 99% certainty? No. The reason is that people ongoingly make choices and have external events happen to them that modify their future. A very talented, knowledgeable, and psychic astrologer would have much greater predictive abilities than I do, and I suppose their prognostications would reflect that.

My other consideration with predictive astrology (which you will find in the Bible, in Isaiah) is that if you believe in an over-arching or omnipresent Divine Mind (call It what you will) as the universal creative principle, then It has the capacity to change the universe It created, including astrologers' predictions.

Marinka, you wrote, "At this point in your life, you are where you are meant to be."

There's that old word "meant" again! "Meant" by whom or by what? This is another logical fallacy, in that since I am not simultaneously living additional lives (so far as I know) there is no way of knowing that this one is somehow the correct life for me. I'd like to believe I have enough personal resources to make a good life in different situations.

I am decently happy in my life, but we all read enough OPs by people who are totally miserable. Is this the sort of life they were "meant" to live?

If so, astrology becomes totally pointless. Don't make any suggestions to them, because ther life is gonna do what it is gonna do, and it is hopeless to suggest ways they might improve their situation.

In terms of decision-making, certainly I can see the decisions that got me here. But I cannot also claim that I couldn't have made other decisions--equally consistent with my character-- that would have gotten me somewhere else. You wrote:

"You are free to use circular reasoning as an argument but, from my side of the fence you are in effect (IMHO) using circular reasoning by indirectly stating that future events cannot be foretold and as a result, current events cannot be a result of the future event. "

Say what? I don't get this one. Can you give an example of a current event that is a result of a future event (i.e., one that hasn't happened yet)?

But yes, we agree: good discussion.
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Unread 08-16-2013, 01:06 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Marinka, you wrote, "At this point in your life, you are where you are meant to be."

There's that old word "meant" again! "Meant" by whom or by what? This is another logical fallacy, in that since I am not simultaneously living additional lives (so far as I know) there is no way of knowing that this one is somehow the correct life for me. I'd like to believe I have enough personal resources to make a good life in different situations.

I am decently happy in my life, but we all read enough OPs by people who are totally miserable. Is this the sort of life they were "meant" to live?

If so, astrology becomes totally pointless. Don't make any suggestions to them, because ther life is gonna do what it is gonna do, and it is hopeless to suggest ways they might improve their situation.

In terms of decision-making, certainly I can see the decisions that got me here. But I cannot also claim that I couldn't have made other decisions--equally consistent with my character-- that would have gotten me somewhere else. You wrote:

"You are free to use circular reasoning as an argument but, from my side of the fence you are in effect (IMHO) using circular reasoning by indirectly stating that future events cannot be foretold and as a result, current events cannot be a result of the future event. "

Say what? I don't get this one. Can you give an example of a current event that is a result of a future event (i.e., one that hasn't happened yet)?

But yes, we agree: good discussion.

"Meant" in this usage denotes how the initial imprint at birth and the subsequent transits interacted to place you in a particular situation at a specific time.

There is one path that has been identified for a person which astrologers may be able to read thru a natal chart and transits.

A path is neither correct nor bad nor good .. it is simply the path. There is no other one.


For people that are miserable at the current point in time, the birth imprint and the current transits are the map that identify that yes ... that misery is part of the path at this point. In a few years, the characteristics of the path may change and the person may not be miserable but, then again, maybe not.

Astrology is not hopeless, it helps to identify how your path looks. Today, you may be traveling through a storm but, tomorrow you may have sunny skies - when we know what lies ahead, we are able to prepare. We bring umbrellas for the storms and sunscreen for the sun -- very simplistic but, true.


And, to my statement

"You are free to use circular reasoning as an argument but, from my side of the fence you are in effect (IMHO) using circular reasoning by indirectly stating that future events cannot be foretold and as a result, current events cannot be a result of the future event. "

Take for example, a vacation trip to New York. In this case, before the trip, the person will be packing. The packing is a current event that is a result of a future event which is the trip to New York.

Another example is that a chart/transits identifies a marriage then, it is a necessity that a previous situation to the marriage would have to involve meeting a person and making a decision (what seemed like a decision at that time) to marry. Hence, a future marriage in a chart identifies that a event has to happen that a person will meet this future spouse. So .. future event foretelling a current event (figuratively current).

Like I said ... what a tangled web we weave ...


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Unread 08-16-2013, 01:20 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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Like I said ... what a tangled web we weave ...
Yep is continuous wave, a fabric of space and time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3bRcM0ZQcY
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Unread 08-16-2013, 01:47 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

As fated and timely it could possibly sound. During my search for my latest interest, The Septile Series.

"The septile - 1/7 of the circle or 51.43 degrees - is a little used and poorly understood aspect in astrology."



"It is usually ignored in most texts, except those dealing specifically with harmonics, and does not form a typical part of the delineation of horoscopes. However, some evidence suggests that increasing our awareness of the septile and seventh harmonic symbolism, may help to develop our understanding of the darker, more primitive elements of the individual and collective psyche."


"In general, septile symbolism is associated with inspiration, visionary experiences, and connection with divinity. "is related to the inflowing of inspiration, of some kind of 'higher vision' which comes from perceiving the unity....associated with religious and mystical experience, and with sacrifice to some higher ideal.



Hamblin's theory is that seven is "...a number not of man's rational and constructive abilities, but of his wild, fertile and unpredictable imagination....It is a number of man's highest flights of creative imagination, and of his lowest depts of destructive illusion."7...Seven may not only be the number of iconoclastic imagination, but the number of the darkest potential in our hearts."

http://www.mooncatsastrology.com/ast...le-article.htm

Perhaps Free Will can also be measured? But the nature of it can swing between good and bad.
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“I believe there is something of the divine mystery in everything that exists. We can see it sparkle in a sunflower or a poppy. We sense more of the unfathomable mystery in a butterfly that flutters from a twig--or in a goldfish swimming in a bowl. But we are closest to God in our own soul. Only there can we become one with the greatest mystery of life. In truth, at very rare moments we can experience that we ourselves are that divine mystery.” --Jostein Gaarder, Sophie's World
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Unread 08-16-2013, 02:25 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

Marinka, I respect your beliefs and experience as an astrologer: no doubt earned through a lot of study, thought, and successful applied experience.

My beliefs and experience are different.

In the case of your New York trip example-- of course people plan for the future ongoingly. I plan everything from trips six months hence to what I am making for lunch 15 minutes hence. However, all that exists in the present is the plan for the future. The future itself hasn't happened yet. Surely all of us have had to cancel or postpone a trip! Brides get stood up at the altar. The aniticipated future may never happen. The plan for the future happened or happens. But that is different.

I have to view most of what you wrote, however, from my perspective, as your beliefs. Not the reality that I experience.

Astrology hardly identifies a single path for a person. There is no single interpretation for a "birth imprint." Each planet, sign, house, and aspect has multiple interpretations. Notably each of these has an empowering and a disempowering interpretation. Is a natal square an aspect of friction and tension, showing where the person is "doomed" to lifetime hassles? Or does it show what the individual is likely to develop and manifest in his lifetime? It sort of depends which astrologer you read, or the level of maturity (some would say spiritual maturity) at which the person operates.

This is why I think astrology operates best as a tool for self awareness. A person cannot change natal sun square Pluto, for example, but she can use it as an identity (sun) linked to ongoing personal transformation (Pluto); rather than as a negative power-dynamic of "dominate or be dominated" (Pluto) where the ego (sun) is heavily invested in itself.

I used to follow my transits on a daily basis. When I noticed that it was making me anxious and superstitious, I stopped doing this. Now I look occasionally at major transits. So far as I can determine, few of these transits deal with external events, unless I do some electional astrology. Most of them deal with internal events, like my attitude about things.
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Unread 08-19-2013, 06:48 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

I voted for total free will. However, free will in itself can mean something different for each person, so I'll try to describe my thoughts on it. I think we all have the ability to choose which actions we make in this life. We may not get everything we want simply out of willing it, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate free will, at least in my mind. Cause and effect clearly operate in our material world, with each action having a more or less variable yet determined outcome because of the environment within which it was made. Awareness of the multitude of possible interactions that can influence our choices plays a large part in how accurate our willed course of action works out. Perhaps one got exactly what one willed without knowing it because they had something more naive in mind for what went into the result they expected?

Another matter inherent in the issue is the tide of time. The more people are united in a particular frame of mind, the harder it is for anything to sway that movement until it's ready to be changed. Every idea has its own time and place when it can best be utilized, and I think this isn't out of predetermination in the sense that everything was already laid out for us down to the breaths we take and the steps we make, but because the accumulation of environmental influences aligned in such a way that it created those moments of opportunity; and I think they can be influenced to some degree just like our environment can be subtly influenced, as we're beginning to learn at this point in time. This is where astrology appeals to me most, as it gives us the gift of insight into the potentials inherent in a day and the age it finds itself within. My own view of astrology, as such, is one of potentials and increased awareness through ALL experiences that take place in our lives. I don't think astrology will tell exactly how something will happen, but I do think it helps us be aware of what can be made of the moments ahead when used in conjunction with awareness of the environment in which we're in.
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Unread 08-26-2013, 06:51 PM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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As I discussed previously, we all cope with a lot of things in our lives that we can't change. But you won't find the majority of them in a horoscope.
Beyond basic biological traits like gender and ethnicity, what else cannot be shown?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread
My other consideration with predictive astrology (which you will find in the Bible, in Isaiah) is that if you believe in an over-arching or omnipresent Divine Mind (call It what you will) as the universal creative principle, then It has the capacity to change the universe It created, including astrologers' predictions.
Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread
If so, astrology becomes totally pointless. Don't make any suggestions to them, because ther life is gonna do what it is gonna do, and it is hopeless to suggest ways they might improve their situation.
Just because something may be inevitable doesn't mean it's not worth trying to deal with it in the most positive and constructive way, and I think astrology can help in that regard.

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Originally Posted by waybread
But yes, we agree: good discussion.
Cheers!
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Unread 08-26-2013, 08:28 PM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

What doesn't a horoscope show?

gender
ethnicity (this one is partly biological and mostly cultural)
nationality (citizenship)
whether you were born into a rich or poor family/ their socio-economic class
whether you were born into a religious or ethnic minority or majority
whether you were born into a democracy, a monarchy, or dictatorship
whether your society values women, disabled people, or the elderly as equal citizens
many genetic factors such as ABO blood type, eye colour, or Down's syndrome
your society's attitudes towards sexuality, alcohol, and modernity

You can learn about these variables, oftentimes, and apply them to the horoscope, but the horoscope itself doesn't show them. And they have tremendous influence on how people's lives turn out. To paraphrase Liz Greene, if you see a "blind" horoscope you don't know whether it symbolizes the birth of a human or the birth of a chicken.

To the second part of your question ("Why?") it is self evident, in the definition and properties of God, Divine Mind, &c. You are familiar with the concept of omnipotence. The biblical creator God is specificially identified in Isaiah 47:13 as having the ability to overturn astrologers' predictions. Whether this will happen or not, and whether or not you believe in any type of supreme consciousness are different matters.

Quote:
Just because something may be inevitable doesn't mean it's not worth trying to deal with it in the most positive and constructive way, and I think astrology can help in that regard.
I believe I said something to this effect. Certainly it was the stoic argument promoted by Hellenistic astrologers. My excerpt in your post was written as a satirical rebuttal to determinists who don't admit any type of freedom in human behaviour.
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Unread 08-26-2013, 11:23 PM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

I greatly agree with Waybread's points.

Would also like to mention about the quality of food a person could get from the grocery or the availability of it then their individual choices made from that each day and the cultural eating habits, personal cooking style these affect a person physical and even mental health scientifically prove how foods influence us!!!!All these personal choices and cultural variation very well influence our lifespan and health/living condition.

The other thing is I don't thing the horoscope can tell you if you take medication on time or you choice of going through chemotherapy or not and which type of chemo and choice on the chemo cycle. Well small or big medical decision will alternate the outcome of physical health then again if they choose eating organic foods or not, exact knowledge on foods as well. These little but important details the horoscope won't show but can only say the person is likely or unlikely to make such choices but never definite.
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Unread 08-27-2013, 12:16 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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......Would also like to mention about the quality of food a person could get from the grocery or the availability of it then their individual choices made from that each day and the cultural eating habits, personal cooking style these affect a person physical and even mental health scientifically prove how foods influence us!!!!All these personal choices and cultural variation very well influence our lifespan and health/living condition.....
Consider then the quality and availability of food in one of the US's 'Tent Cities'

What free will do these people have for example?




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Unread 08-27-2013, 12:36 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

I had asked these questions to myself each day as working in hospital.

I do questions about free will and destiny and how much one can really go against each day. Ultimately, it went back to the point of if both good and evil are outside of our own control and people who abuses me today has no free will of choosing not to. So this abuser is a victim? Should I let him continue to abuse me then? Cause it is his destiny to rape and abuse? And it is my fate to be abused and rape?

It reminds me of the poor young Indian young last year got raped and burtially killed tortured and killed on the bus by men saying it was her fault to be out so late at night and deserved all the punishment. So let the rapist be rapist and let the victim be victims. This world eventually a hell of animals claiming they have no free will. It reminded me of the Tarot Card The Devil when both Adam and Eve being controlled by the Devil but it was obvious that they can escape if they choose to.
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Unread 08-27-2013, 12:52 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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I had asked these questions to myself each day as working in hospital.
You mentioned that your work brings you into daily contact with the very aged - patients being more than 80 years old in some cases - you described once how they 'stare at the wall' all day. Their free will is definitely questionable
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Originally Posted by poyi View Post
I do questions about free will and destiny and how much one can really go against each day. Ultimately, it went back to the point of if both good and evil are outside of our own control and people who abuses me today has no free will of choosing not to. So this abuser is a victim? Should I let him continue to abuse me then? Cause it is his destiny to rape and abuse? And it is my fate to be abused and rape?

Destiny and Fate are a contradiction of Free Will
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It reminds me of the poor young Indian young last year got raped and burtially killed tortured and killed on the bus by men saying it was her fault to be out so late at night and deserved all the punishment. So let the rapist be rapist and let the victim be victims. This world eventually a hell of animals claiming they have no free will. It reminded me of the Tarot Card The Devil when both Adam and Eve being controlled by the Devil but it was obvious that they can escape if they choose to.
That's blaming the victim
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Unread 08-27-2013, 12:56 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

http://www.rosicrucian.com/mos/moseng01.htm

CHAPTER II, THE MEASURE OF AMENABILITY TO PLANETARY VIBRATIONS

Quote:
It is a mystic maxim that the lower in the scale of evolution a being is placed the more certainly it responds to the planetary rays, and conversely the higher we ascend in the scale of attainment the more the man conquers and rules his stars, freeing himself from the leading strings of the Divine Hierarchies through the planetary aspects in such a manner that we do not hurt ourselves beyond recovery in the experiences of life.
But coupled with this guidance there is of course the measure of Free Will, which grows as we evolve.
[edited quote over 100 words against forum rules - Moderator]

http://www.rosicrucianfellowship.com...se%20Cross.pdf

Well a few astrologers may find some answers about free will in the above:
.

Last edited by wilsontc; 08-27-2013 at 04:02 PM.
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Unread 08-27-2013, 12:57 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

I also had made statement before. Life and people very often is a mix of different shades of Grey. The reality we are in that is no absolute truth for both Black and White. We are living in the deception of Grey.

There is element of Both Destiny and Both Free will. There is a limit of things we could change and not change. There is also a limit of Destiny can't control us fully.

The reality is each of these overlapping each other to form a pattern of Thread. As that is the dimension of our reality.

“This life's dim windows of the soul Distorts the heavens from pole to pole And leads you to believe a lie When you see with, not through, the eye.”

by William Blake
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