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Research and Development This is a forum designed for applying scientific methods and understanding to all approaches of astrology, cooperative formulation and testing of new ideas, re-examination of known methods of delineation and interpretation, and the exploration of new astrological methods of all kinds (e.g. heliocentric models, planetary nodes and apogees, etc.).


View Poll Results: How many of you believe that Humans have FreeWill?
Yes Humans have total FREE WILL 13 35.14%
Probably...Humans have FREE WILL more than 50% of the time 7 18.92%
Maybe...Humans have Free Will less than 50% of the time 4 10.81%
NO... Humans have no FREE WILL at all 13 35.14%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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  #26  
Unread 08-14-2013, 05:30 PM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

To waybread, my boyfriend is a member of the forum and he admired Ptolemy's work so he name his ID Ptolemy lol

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  #27  
Unread 08-14-2013, 05:37 PM
Mandy Mandy is offline
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cypocryphy View Post
I hope you know this doesn't make much sense. It does not make sense to you. You are comparing non-sentient, inanimate objects to sentient, animate beings, based on the supposition that they are alike fundamentally. Following your dyadic comparison, an atom cannot chose to bind with another atom on a Saturday rather than on a Monday Events conspire to determine the day of their unification (see evolution; development; etc.). A hydrogen atom would not chose an oxygen atom over a carbon atom as can a person chose to marry one person over another. What you have here is a false analogy.

Choice can be represented by a series of concentric circles, whereby the more choices made along a certain path, the tighter the circle becomes, circumscribing your possibilities. That is a superficial analysis.

Be careful with the words "know" and "believe." I think you believe there is no free will. But you most certainly do not know that there is not. The most dangerous people in the word are those who know they are right. Don't be one of those! I made clear what I believe in my initial post, which was not that I believe that we have no free will. Before you make a conclusion, check you have read the text.

I have noticed that those who tend to be prone to the deterministic view on life, those stoics in belief, tend to have suffered the most, have been victims of some condition or situation. Psychologically reeling from the distress of emotional, physical or financial suffering, they must find a way to alleviate the torture of either their own responsibility over the situation or angst for being in a position to not change their course in life. The solution is determinism. By embracing such a black and white view, it simplifies life for them, places it in a context that is palatable, removing their own responsibility over their situation or making said situation more acceptable. I'm not saying this is you Mandy but, rather, a general condition.

In all of this, where is the proof? Where is it? Show us how many events or situations you (not you Mandy, "you" in general) have predicted accurately, and then show us how many you have failed to predict accurately.


If (a) astrology works and (b) everything is in the stars, then (c) you should have remarkable accuracy, less (x), astrologer error. But if you are a good astrologer, then the error should really be small! And as a poster said earlier, she knows someone who predicts weather, etc. accurately. That doesn't count! Predict the future of a fee will agent, and then we will talk. Successful predictions merely reflect capturing the correct probability. You will find that there are a substantial amount of erroneous predictions made by really good astrologists.

Once you do that (not necessarily you Mandy) then people can start using the word "know." But at this moment, it is all a bunch of unsubstantiated opinions.
Dear Cypocryphy,

Thank you for being so considerate (very sweet).

Broadly, in respect of your philosophical arguments about santient beings, they rely on certain philosophical axioms. A philosophy student can argue with me on the basis of error in logic. But I refute the axioms. Do an astrologer's predictions leave an error gap owing to free will or do they leave an error gap owing to the fact that humans are severely constrained by perceptual limitations?

I am a scientist by trade, a postgraduate student and researcher (assistant to professor) at one of the world's prestigious universities. My peers (professors/postgrads) think it is highly amusing that I "believe" in astrology, magic, tarot, a universal God, etc. When I ask them why, they say "Because it is a scientific impossibility!" I cringe at such ignorance, particularly as it comes from a scientist. However, I use the example here, amongst astrologers, to demonstrate that even people who might be considered at the cutting edge of "knowledge" and win awards for their contributions to science are really no more or less jaded in believing that their view is irrefutably correct. Their view is irrefutably messed up. Scientists are really just trying to understand our condition and they have not got very far, at all.

What I know (not believe) is that that humans are clueless. We do not know what is going on in space. We do now know what is going on a km below the earth's own crust. We do not know what is going on in our brain/how the brain works. We do not even know how the hell we are conscious. And we are paradoxically limited in studying consciousness with consciousness. Even when we try to be objective we are limited severely by what technology has to offer.

When we do not know somethng about the human condition it is easy and tempting to ascribe that to "free will" or "fairies." But objectively there is no shame in admitting we do not know. Not knowing something is not the same as knowing (i.e., that we have free will). You can believe in what you like, more power to you. I dont believe in something for no reason.

Stoic people who have experienced trauma are not a separate class of people who skew the results of the bell curve. They fit neatly into the bell curve, because they have had the opportunuty to experience a lot more of life. If life is a constant, an axiom, then it is an eror, in my eyes, to think that the laws which apply to one person do not apply to the next, however different their situations. The simple bell curve illustrates this.

To confirm your contention, I am a person who has experienced and re-experienced trauma. Initially, I was a child of war. I saw lots of people massacred, stomachs blown up on buses, dead bodies in the road (with no one to clean them up), bombing sirens, anytime of day or night. That is really just the tip, but this is not the place. I say "re-experienced" for several reasons. One of those is that I saw how it had continued to affect everyone even after it was looong over. I also experienced extreme guilt from survival, amongst other things. I take it you can understand that for me the war was predetermined, I didnt will it into existance. Neither did I will anything that lead up to it or the consequences of it on other people.

But I was left with this personal issue of dealing with life, twice. The first time, I was young and dabbling recreationally in drugs. I took too many ecstasy pills. I became unconscious and nearly died, but had a complete meeting with the source* that sent me back to life. The second time, there were no drugs or alcohol involved but I could not live anymore from guilt of survival (the war). I changed like 10 therapists in the space of a few months because it was evident to me that they did not have the foggiest clue of what I was talking about. They seemed to have this idea that I needed to be comforted. I didnt need to be comforted, I needed to understand my place in the world. I then realised, what my father told me all along, that I was the only person who could clarify this for myself, effectively will myself into health. I did that.

You say:

Quote:
I have noticed that those who tend to be prone to the deterministic view on life...tend to have suffered the most, have been victims of some condition or situation. Psychologically reeling from the distress of emotional, physical or financial suffering, they must find a way to alleviate the torture of either their own responsibility over the situation or angst for being in a position to not change their course in life. The solution is determinism. By embracing such a black and white view, it simplifies life for them, places it in a context that is palatable, removing their own responsibility over their situation or making said situation more acceptable.
What you have said there is over the top rediculous . If a person has undergone a deviational occurence, lets say a threat to their life, how are they supposed to go back and change it? Do you know something I dont? A time machine perhaps? Or are you of the persuasion like many "counselors" and hypnotherapists out there 'that one cannot change the situation but should change how they view it to a way that is more comfortable.' I dont need to put my head in the sand in order to deal with reality. It is what it is, sometimes, hard to grasp, just like many other things, but that is all that needs to be done. Thinking that I can go back and save people or take responsibility for a past event that was out of my hands, factually, or aim to forget all about it, is percisely the wrong thing to do and drives people into madness. I am yet to see someone who takes responsibility for something they have not done appear healthy. Similarly, a rapist who takes responsibility for his actions is not necessarily healthy.

I did not "alleviate" my torture by ascribing my experience to determinism. Neither do I view myself or have ever viewed myself as a victim of anything. That is your judgement. It is thoroughly subjective. And your generalisation is clearly based on unfounded opinion. I alleviated it because I accepted it. Did any person in the war with a gun kill out of his own free will? No. He was completely and utterly influenced by circumstance. I saw boys and men who before the war were the nicest of neighbours and husbands become killers, all in the space of a year. They suffer with guilt now percisely because they feel a personal responsibility over something they were forced to do. They could have said 'no' but they would have died and left their wife and children without food.

Most of our problems happen because we are doing them to ourselves. We fail to just accept things as they are because we are socially conditioned to believe that life should look a certain way. If you want to have a sounder understanding of the universe, you should not impose your value(less) judgments on it, such as what is normal and what is not because they will be reflected in the erronuous conclusions of your readings, at which point you will make the illogical statement of "I am an astrologer therefore I am not wrong. You have free will that accounts for my error." You should also rememeber that astrology is a form of measurement, not the form of measurement. It is a form of explanation, not the explanation. Your own mind is rejecting evidence as evidence. How objective are you? Start with yourself, then try to understand others.

And for the record, I did not say we have no free will. I said we have access to a very small amount.



* this was at an age when I had never heard of OBEs etc.

Last edited by Mandy; 08-14-2013 at 06:14 PM.
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  #28  
Unread 08-14-2013, 06:23 PM
MissCubyA MissCubyA is offline
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

Im a newbie, but dont think we have much free will. I think the only choice we get is the choice to choose our reaction--whether you going to let it break you or build you.
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  #29  
Unread 08-14-2013, 06:27 PM
Zarathu Zarathu is offline
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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Originally Posted by MissCubyA View Post
Im a newbie, but dont think we have much free will. I think the only choice we get is the choice to choose our reaction--whether you going to let it break you or build you.
To be able to choose any action is an example of Free Will. If you cannot choose your reaction to things, then that's when you don't have Free Will.

No Free Will means everything is pre-destined. You are locked into a scripted play your whole life---and not scripted by you.
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  #30  
Unread 08-14-2013, 06:52 PM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

No free will - doesn't exist. We're put on a path from the time of our birth with the imprint of the galaxy on us and as we move through life the predetermined spatial movements interact with our celestial imprint and shape us into what we are and will become.

Just because we can not yet foretell every moment of our lives does not mean that it is not possible, only that we are still ignorant of the information to do so.

The choices that you make in life have been programmed into you by the characteristics associated with your imprint and when planet movements angle your imprint, you will act in certain ways that again, have been already defined by your imprint. Sad ... but, true.

I thought about this frequently over the past four years as there was a decision I had to make 4 years ago. I looked at my chart and saw a certain configuration and decided based on that, which way was the best way to go. As I look back now, I realize that there was no decision really because the only way that the present circumstances could have happened is only by making the decision that I did 4 years ago.

The known future challenges and promises in anyone's chart only come to fruition based on past events which appear to be free will when being experienced but, is simply following the path you were meant to be on....

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  #31  
Unread 08-14-2013, 07:38 PM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

I think we can change our dna and other "unchangable" things. A powerful enough wizard could, someone so powerful may not have existed yet, but eventually someoe will.
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  #32  
Unread 08-14-2013, 09:56 PM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

If we have no free will none of us is responsible for our sin. If Eve decided to eat the fruit of knowledge was due to fated events programmed by God, then we should not be responsible for that inherited sins within our flesh.

Optimally, as a result we don't need God as He made us to sin. The argument is He knew we will sin so gave us warning but Adam and Eve decided to ignore.

The interesting part is God created us and Satan while He knew the fated events. So is He truly a righteous God? Since the beginning it said He created light and darkness. Human is the image of God. So think about that God himself is both the God of light at the same time He also representing the element of darkness.

Of course that will depending on rather you believe in God or not. And rather you believe in Him is both light and darkness.
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  #33  
Unread 08-14-2013, 10:38 PM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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Originally Posted by Zarathu View Post
To be able to choose any action is an example of Free Will. If you cannot choose your reaction to things, then that's when you don't have Free Will.

No Free Will means everything is pre-destined. You are locked into a scripted play your whole life---and not scripted by you.
Hi Zarathu, can you please describe what you mean by Free Will, and explain why without free will the only other alternative is, by necessity, that EVERYTHING is pre-destined - for example why not chance?

Also if you could break down the boundaries, if any, you recognise with regards Free Will? Do some people have more Free Will than others?

Some questions, I don't expect you to answer them all, but your answers would help me form my own responses to your question. Once again we are trying to reduce complex philosophical problems into a binary solution - I have already addressed on the other thread how futile I think such endeavours often are.

I was born in Ireland and both of my parents are alive today. Someone else was born in a slum and both their parents are dead. Are any of these things the result of Free Will of the individual/child? If not why are they dead? Why didn't the child will for them to be otherwise?

Consider a possibility that all things are scripted to befall you, there is the determinism you spoke of. However you have the choice in altering your ATTITUDE about those matters - you can accept and work with them, embracing them as you do so, or you can fight in vain against it. Is this free will? What is it instead if it is not free will? Is there a difference between determinism and fatalism?

Is there any way that you recognise where determinism and free will are compatible?

A brick falls on your head - you have free will, why did the brick fall on your head when you have free will? Did you, in some way, cause that brick to fall on your head due to a lack of conscious exercise of your mental capabilities for example? Was it possible to determine that you would have a brick fall on your head that day?

Say you have the free will to make a choice, but you can only choose two options - is this truly free if you really want to take a third option?

Has there ever been a time when you are fully committed to a course of action, apply your free will as completely as you can to achieve that course of action, only for some external situation or internal failing prevent you from succeeding in that course of action? How do you account for this?
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  #34  
Unread 08-15-2013, 02:28 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

I opt out of the 100% determinism camp in part because there would be no point in studying astrology were this the case. S**t will happen, and studying astrology will not make a particular of difference to it. You couldn't even study astrology to try to prepare yourself for the Bad Times ahead. If they're coming at you, you're going to be caught in the buzz saw, regardless.

I say that determinists do not put their determinism into practice. You do not live in a society devoid of free will-- or what I prefer to call choice. Try speeding down the highway and telling the police officer who pulls you over that you had no control over your foot on the pedal. Try being a parent and taking zero responsibility for raising your children properly. Hey, if astrology says their lives will turn out OK, then there is no such thing as child neglect. Try telling the judge that you had no control over embezzling your employers' funds because you were having a bad 8th house day.

Oh, and wait-- which toilet paper do you buy in the supermarket? Which brand of corn flakes? Your tiniest, most minute and trivial decisions are utterly determined by chunks of rock hurtling through space. This may be a reductio ad absurdum argument, but I have yet to see a fatalist give a rationale for deciding where to draw the line.

You are little more than a robot, utterly and totally influenced by forces beyond your control. Your very thought processes as you read this post are determined externally to your mind.

The complete free will argument is equally unsustainable. However, some of the fatalism has to be attributed to non-astrological causes, as I discussed in my previous post.

If the truth lies somewhere in the middle, good luck finding the sweet spot-- and explaining how you derived it.
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  #35  
Unread 08-15-2013, 02:37 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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Originally Posted by poyi View Post
If we have no free will none of us is responsible for our sin. If Eve decided to eat the fruit of knowledge was due to fated events programmed by God, then we should not be responsible for that inherited sins within our flesh.

Optimally, as a result we don't need God as He made us to sin. The argument is He knew we will sin so gave us warning but Adam and Eve decided to ignore.

The interesting part is God created us and Satan while He knew the fated events. So is He truly a righteous God? Since the beginning it said He created light and darkness. Human is the image of God. So think about that God himself is both the God of light at the same time He also representing the element of darkness.

Of course that will depending on rather you believe in God or not. And rather you believe in Him is both light and darkness.
Belief in the Judeo-Christian God of the Bible, believing in the Bible literally vs. metaphorically, and accepting (some) churches' doctrines about Original Sin are very, very different things. You can believe in God without believing in original sin, or even that the Garden of Eden story was ever meant to be taken literally.

Judaism first canonized Genesis centuries before the emergence of the Christian Bible, but has no belief in original sin. Original sin was necessary to the early Catholic church to justify the divinity and sacrifice of Jesus. No original sin? No need for salvation through Jesus. Very political.

Genesis does not say that the serpent was Satan: this is a post-biblical gloss. I don't believe in Satan as a personality: there is enough human evil in the world that we don't need to externalize it and paste it on a mythical being.

However, the Adam and Eve story makes a good parable about free will and determinism.
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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #36  
Unread 08-15-2013, 02:40 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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Belief in the Judeo-Christian God of the Bible, believing in the Bible literally vs. metaphorically, and accepting (some) churches' doctrines about Original Sin are very, very different things. You can believe in God without believing in original sin, or even that the Garden of Eden story was ever meant to be taken literally.

Judaism first canonized Genesis centuries before the emergence of the Christian Bible, but has no belief in original sin. Original sin was necessary to the early Catholic church to justify the divinity and sacrifice of Jesus. No original sin? No need for salvation through Jesus. Very political.

Genesis does not say that the serpent was Satan: this is a post-biblical gloss. I don't believe in Satan as a personality: there is enough human evil in the world that we don't need to externalize it and paste it on a mythical being.

However, the Adam and Eve story makes a good parable about free will and determinism.
Yer just really trying hard to get my points out....

If we have no free will then life will be meaningless like as we all liviing like robot which I also mentioned in the 9th house and religion thread
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  #37  
Unread 08-15-2013, 03:17 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

I don't think determinism means we don't have choices. But what you choose was what you were meant to choose, because you chose it. If you had chosen something else, that would've also been what you were meant to choose. You can't be random; there will always be a reason you do what you do, and that reason has a reason itself, and so on.
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  #38  
Unread 08-15-2013, 03:27 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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If we have no free will then life will be meaningless like as we all liviing like robot which I also mentioned in the 9th house and religion thread
Life is meaningless, and the sooner you realize that the better off you will be. It is our search for meaning itself that gives us meaning.

Some helpful links:

Free Will
Causal Determinism
Fatalism
Compatibilism
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  #39  
Unread 08-15-2013, 03:41 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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Originally Posted by eternalautumn View Post
Life is meaningless, and the sooner you realize that the better off you will be. It is our search for meaning itself that gives us meaning.

Some helpful links:

Free Will
Causal Determinism
Fatalism
Compatibilism
Yer I came to the understanding of the meaningless aspect life from very young age. It is my life time mission to find the ultimate truth.

I might never find the actual answer or I might get extremely disappointed during (which I had many times) and I might not as fruitful as I wished to be at the end of my journey. But I am willing to try and have faith to continue the path till the end. Based on the faith alone, as stupid as it might sound, I do believe in things beyond this world of limitations.

As no one has the definite answer so I still have equal chance of finding the other side of the reality. I might even be fated to be the one who will find the answer lol! Either way I win!
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Unread 08-15-2013, 03:43 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post

The Greeks also believed in three fates (Moirae) who determined the outcome of individual lives. They, however, were not planets, signs, or houses.

.
A bit off topic (of this thread), but I tend to think the concept of the 3 Fates (who also ultimately ruled the lives of the Gods-the 7 planets-as well) were a mythological representation of a previous knowledge of the 3 outer planets...
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  #41  
Unread 08-15-2013, 04:00 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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Originally Posted by eternalautumn View Post
I don't think determinism means we don't have choices. But what you choose was what you were meant to choose, because you chose it. If you had chosen something else, that would've also been what you were meant to choose. You can't be random; there will always be a reason you do what you do, and that reason has a reason itself, and so on.
Sorry, but this is a classic example of the fallacy of circular reasoning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...-question.html

Can we also unpack what is behind the word "meant"? "Meant" by what or by whom? And with what evidence to back up the claim?
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  #42  
Unread 08-15-2013, 04:19 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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Sorry, but this is a classic example of the fallacy of circular reasoning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...-question.html

Can we also unpack what is behind the word "meant"? "Meant" by what or by whom? And with what evidence to back up the claim?
Fair enough. I tried.

I meant "meant" as in fated.
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Unread 08-15-2013, 04:25 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

OK, but then this simply reinforces the circular reasoning problem. I think you've got to get "out of the box" to explain your views. Otherwise it is like saying, you were fated to do X because you were fated to do X.

So far as the question of life being meaningful vs. meaningless, I think my refrigerator magnet sums it up. "Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself."

Up to a point.
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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OK, but then this simply reinforces the circular reasoning problem. I think you've got to get "out of the box" to explain your views. Otherwise it is like saying, you were fated to do X because you were fated to do X.

So far as the question of life being meaningful vs. meaningless, I think my refrigerator magnet sums it up. "Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself."

Up to a point.
Yes Life is about finding your own value and place in this life and sharing yourself as honestly as generously with others.

Life is meant/fated to bring blessings to all the living beings, sharing life together on this earth. That is creating yourself, expanding your own internal resources to a level that is overflowing, to become abundance and share.

My best friend said to me. Never let your internal darkness and bitterness to take away your happiness and bliss.

One of the very spiritual nurses, she shared this with us few weeks ago at work:

An Old Cherokee Tale of Two Wolves

One evening an old Cherokee Indian told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people. He said, ‘My son, the battle is between two ‘wolves’ inside us all.One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.


The other is good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.’
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: ‘Which wolf wins?’


The old Cherokee simply replied, ‘The one you feed.’


This is such a lovely story: so simple and yet so true. I think each and every one of us has these two wolves running around inside us. The Evil wolf or the Good Wolf is fed daily by the choices we make with our thoughts. What you think about and dwell upon will in a sense appear in your life and influence your behavior.


We have a choice, feed the Good Wolf and it will show up in our character, habits and behavior positively. Or feed the Evil Wolf and our whole world will turn negative: like poison, this will slowly eat away at our soul.
The crucial question is “Which are you feeding today”?
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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OK, but then this simply reinforces the circular reasoning problem. I think you've got to get "out of the box" to explain your views. Otherwise it is like saying, you were fated to do X because you were fated to do X.

So far as the question of life being meaningful vs. meaningless, I think my refrigerator magnet sums it up. "Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself."

Up to a point.
You're right.

I wish we could just look into each other's head. Ugh.

Last edited by eternalautumn; 08-15-2013 at 04:47 AM.
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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Life is meaningless, and the sooner you realize that the better off you will be.
Wow. That's pathetic.
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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Wow. That's pathetic.
Maybe. I don't not believe in "meaning", just that there's not some deeper meaning to existence. It just is.
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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Dear Cypocryphy,

Thank you for being so considerate (very sweet).
First, Mandy, I want to tell you that my heart goes out to you for having to experience such horrific and vile human travesties. I wish you never had to go through those experiences.

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Broadly, in respect of your philosophical arguments about santient beings, they rely on certain philosophical axioms. A philosophy student can argue with me on the basis of error in logic. But I refute the axioms. Do an astrologer's predictions leave an error gap owing to free will or do they leave an error gap owing to the fact that humans are severely constrained by perceptual limitations?


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I am a scientist by trade, a postgraduate student and researcher (assistant to professor) at one of the world's prestigious universities. My peers (professors/postgrads) think it is highly amusing that I "believe" in astrology, magic, tarot, a universal God, etc. When I ask them why, they say "Because it is a scientific impossibility!" I cringe at such ignorance, particularly as it comes from a scientist. However, I use the example here, amongst astrologers, to demonstrate that even people who might be considered at the cutting edge of "knowledge" and win awards for their contributions to science are really no more or less jaded in believing that their view is irrefutably correct. Their view is irrefutably messed up. Scientists are really just trying to understand our condition and they have not got very far, at all.
I'm not fond of closed minds either. And just to let you know, I am not coming from a position that says astrology is ineffective or has no merit. I wouldn't be a member here if I did.

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What I know (not believe) is that that humans are clueless. We do not know what is going on in space. We do now know what is going on a km below the earth's own crust.
I think you are selling the human race a little short there, but you are free to think and do what you wish. That is your "choice."

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We do not know what is going on in our brain/how the brain works. We do not even know how the hell we are conscious. And we are paradoxically limited in studying consciousness with consciousness. Even when we try to be objective we are limited severely by what technology has to offer.
I think you need to stop focussing on limitations and start realizing how little boundaries there are.

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When we do not know somethng about the human condition it is easy and tempting to ascribe that to "free will" or "fairies."
This is why I categorized your belief as deterministic because it virtually is deterministic. You equate freewill with fairies, perhaps the tooth fairy, even. And placing a 5 percent value on freewill and 95 percent on determinism seems to me to be a woman hedging her bets, as if she's not quite certain what she believes but wants to play it safe unless she's wrong.

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But objectively there is no shame in admitting we do not know. Not knowing something is not the same as knowing (i.e., that we have free will). You can believe in what you like, more power to you. I dont believe in something for no reason.
I understand. I never thought you go around believing in things willy nilly.

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Stoic people who have experienced trauma are not a separate class of people who skew the results of the bell curve. They fit neatly into the bell curve, because they have had the opportunuty to experience a lot more of life. If life is a constant, an axiom, then it is an eror, in my eyes, to think that the laws which apply to one person do not apply to the next, however different their situations. The simple bell curve illustrates this.
I'm not sure what you are saying here. It seems as if you are responding to something never discussed.

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What you have said there is over the top rediculous . If a person has undergone a deviational occurence, lets say a threat to their life, how are they supposed to go back and change it? Do you know something I dont? A time machine perhaps? Or are you of the persuasion like many "counselors" and hypnotherapists out there 'that one cannot change the situation but should change how they view it to a way that is more comfortable.' I dont need to put my head in the sand in order to deal with reality.
No no. I think you misunderstand what I said.

Quote:
It is what it is, sometimes, hard to grasp, just like many other things, but that is all that needs to be done. Thinking that I can go back and save people or take responsibility for a past event that was out of my hands, factually, or aim to forget all about it, is percisely the wrong thing to do and drives people into madness. I am yet to see someone who takes responsibility for something they have not done appear healthy. Similarly, a rapist who takes responsibility for his actions is not necessarily healthy.
I never said that.

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I did not "alleviate" my torture by ascribing my experience to determinism. Neither do I view myself or have ever viewed myself as a victim of anything. That is your judgement. It is thoroughly subjective. And your generalisation is clearly based on unfounded opinion.
Actually, it's not. Stoicism is a belief similar to religion. Much like how people view God as determining their fate, astrological stoics (not all) tend to ascribe the same power to the stars as do religious fundamentalist ascribe "power of influence" to their "God." Just as a fundamentalist Christian would lay the cause of their plight to the will of God, so too do astrological stoics lay the cause of their plights to those reflected by the formations and patterns of the stars and planets. There is a tremendous amount of psychological literature and research in this area. It is very well documented. And I have read a lot of it, but for other reasons, which have nothing to do with astrology.

Quote:
I alleviated it because I accepted it. Did any person in the war with a gun kill out of his own free will? No. He was completely and utterly influenced by circumstance. I saw boys and men who before the war were the nicest of neighbours and husbands become killers, all in the space of a year. They suffer with guilt now percisely because they feel a personal responsibility over something they were forced to do. They could have said 'no' but they would have died and left their wife and children without food.
Sure. That is a good example. Conscription does force people to do many things they would never intend on doing. And that is precisely why I said there is not 100 percent self-determinism. It is circumscribed by life conditions and the choices others make, which affect us significantly. But either way you look at it, a choice is being made by someone, whether it's a human or a government.

Anyway, I'm not going to go on about it. But I just want to let you know that my statements were not about judging you. And ironically, you actually supported my previous statement. I really had no knowledge that you have had such harrowing experiences. And I should have not used the word "victim." I simply meant that you were acted upon by external forces.

You said:
Quote:
I alleviated it because I accepted it.
I said: The solution is determinism. By embracing such a black and white view, it simplifies life for them, places it in a context that is palatable, removing their own responsibility over their situation or making said situation more acceptable.

You put the wrong emPHASis on the wrong phrase. You fit that theory very well.
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Last edited by Cypocryphy; 08-15-2013 at 06:17 AM.
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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Maybe. I don't not believe in "meaning", just that there's not some deeper meaning to existence. It just is.
You're still young, dude. You're going to find meaning. When you fall in love, that alone will give you meaning. Life is full of meaning. Meaning is a continual expression of the very essence of being. What's more meaningful than that?
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Unread 08-15-2013, 05:44 AM
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Re: If you are an astrologer, do you believe in Free Will

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You're still young, dude. You're going to find meaning. When you fall in love, that alone will give you meaning. Life is full of meaning. Meaning is a continual expression of the very essence of being. What's more meaningful than that?
I agree with you. But I believe those meanings, the ones we can find and experience, aren't transcendent. They might transcend ordinary experience, but they don't transcend reality.
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